No doubt that is true. My bad I was talking about E-V13 specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nassbean
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No doubt that is true. My bad I was talking about E-V13 specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nassbean
here we go let's just pretend the stats are false and that north africans never settled in Iberia ...e1b1b are all from neolithic farmers even though none of the copper age samples had this haplogroup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
Cantabrian Pasiegos are m81 and they have fuxkingly nothing to do with North Africans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
haplogroups have nothing to do with autosomal composition. After 10 years on this site you still know nothing about genetics It tells us a lot about your mental capacities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
Most Europeans who carry E1b1b are E-V13. E-V13 probably expanded from the Balkans.
My guess is E-V13 has been in Europe since at least the Late Bronze age. But it only grew dominant in Hellenistic, Roman and post Roman medieval times.
I think even.in Southeastern Europe it will be quite rare in the Bronze or Iron age. I don't think the Myceneans or Minoans carried much if it.
E-M81 meanwhile is mostly of North African origin. Though I think Hannibal and Hastrubal's armies could have spread it a little long before Islam was invented.
You are butthurt because Pasiegos break all your brown agenda :thumb001:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nassbean
ask any spanish member here and you'll see what it means to have e-m81 as haplogroup :thumb001:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
I don't need to ask, I know it perfectly. Pasiegos are m81 and for your disgrace have nothing to do with your people, they are a super isolated population and never had even contact with Muslim invasors, what invalidates your wannabe claims that haplogroup in Spain comes from you. You wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nassbean
E-M81 (E-M183) is the most typical North-African berber marker you can get, I believe in entered into Spain through 3 periods:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
- Phoenician expansion
- Roman expansion
- Muslim expansion
who says it's linked with the muslim era ? It could be even older than that many berber soldiers settled in their region during ancient times but what should I expect from you ? You don't even know your own history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
What explains E-V13's current distribution? It peaks in Albanians and is common in Northwestern Greeks. Maybe Pyrrhus of Epirus helped spread it in Southern Italy. It then became frequent in Italy and Roman armies and Byzantine civilization could explain the rest.
https://www.eupedia.com/images/conte...roup-E-V13.gif
Well, it is what I am saying, did not come during the Muslim era. You claimed some posts above it is recent. No it is not recent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nassbean
Your fantasies about Berber soldiers settling in cantabria, better leave it for your children when you count a tale sleeping them.
Pasiegos look nothing like Berbers, for start with.
Byzantine explains how it’s found in Tajikistan and Siberia Lol?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
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Alphalla
I just meant the Byzantines would have helped spread it. Not that wherever it's found is soley due to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos777
What about Numidian kingdom? They were a major factor in the 2nd Punic war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
you're asking too much for him. He doesn't even know the history of his own region lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
Strawman or not,Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
your entire premise is wrong. I don’t get why you think that it could only spread with extremely young civilizations like Greeks or Romans. E-V13 and especially it’s predecessor E-M78 is old as fuck. The most logical theory for its distribution is assimilation of this Haplo from neolithics in Europe by Indo-Europeans spreading it with them, that explains why it’s equally found in R1b and R1a dominant countries. And a founder effect in the Balkans making it more common there.
As for how it came into Europe. The Neolithic farmer theory doesn’t hold much water anymore due to an almost complete lack of E1b in Neolithic farmers. E-M78 or not. Which makes sense because Natufians were the only E people to have contact with AHG and ANF but they left no more than around 10 percent of their DNA which means the contact with Natufians was minimal.
Some people say it could have been Cardial ware culture, but their origin in the Levant in large part from Natufians they almost certainly had to have a good chunk of lineages that are downstream E-Z827 but that wasn’t found among them? So it sounds like bullshit to me.
So far the only logical conclusion to E-V13 ancestor in Europe is directly from North Africa from the Capsian culture in the Mesolithic. There have even been some archeological sites in Balkans where those Mesolithic people had close connections to North African Mesolithic culture.
But who the fuck knows for sure. We need more samples.
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I think yes, Pasiegos are Numidians :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
https://static3.eldiariomontanes.es/...20Montanes.jpg
https://img2.rtve.es/v/3304904?w=160...3553563024.jpg
https://www.trajetipico.com/uploads/...ampurriano.jpg
Seriously, stop searching hilarious stories to justify the North African agenda. It sucks.
what does phenotype has to do with this ? You can be black with a west european haplogroup...Their north african ancestors are from ancient times since then they had all the time to mix with local iberians that's what you can't understandQuote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
And Where and When do you think this founder effect happened? It obviously happened far after the Neolithic. I'd say the modern distribution favors a Balkan origin too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos777
You do realize there are Isolated and mountainous Berber groups who look just as White as them, right? Who else do you think the ancient Egyptians stereotyped as pasty white with red hair in their art? Secondly, people who are just as White as them can have even a Black ancestor somewhere in the woodpile so having an off White ancestor from Numidia would be nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
Lastly didn't you read that paper on Iberia that came out about a year ago? The Bronze age Iberians all came out R1b. So id say most E-M81 in Iberia at least post dates the Bronze age
To my best knowledge. Bronze Age. E-V13 in Sweden for example is a completely different subclade than the one in Balkans, it does not come from the Balkans(earlier than Bronze Age)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...#V13_subclades
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So there's been an Ancient DNA study where a sample in Sweden carried E1B1B-V13?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos777
HahahahahahahahahhaQuote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
Some Pasiegos more
https://imagenes.20minutos.es/files/...te-viesgo.jpeg
https://static3.eldiariomontanes.es/...0Montanes.jpeg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...q_rOxgwI5pV8lA
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sUQv2xFkh...s_pasiegos.jpg
Pasiegos look nothing like North Africans, and have nothing to do with them, nor culturally nor linguistically nor anything :p
We just know by the different subclades and their estimated ages, that northern E-V13 don’t come directly from Balkans in the time period and the cultures you’re suggesting it came from. Northern E-V13 is not from Greeks or Romans. As is the case with Siberian and Tajik E-V13.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
And what's the frequency of E-M81 in them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
Well until ancient DNA validates that id remain skeptical. Anyway regarding Sweden it's a very trivial lineage in Swedes. My original post you responded to is talking about it's major expansion and in areas it actually became dominant in. Like the Balkans and Southern Italy. In Neolithic times it wasnt dominant in those areas..we know this via ancient DNA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos777
Btw. The E-V13 in Austria and Southern Germany? Is it the Northern one or Balkan one?
Around 40% of Pasiegos are m81.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
Depends on the clade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
But for the most part those clades are "Northern" by which I mean they separated from the ancestor of the Balkan branch a long time ago. Balkan people such as Illyrians, Greeks, Thracians were not the people who brought it there. It was an earlier culture. If the majority of E-V13 subclades in the North were balkan ones what you're saying would make sense.
Well overall theyre not even remotely 40% North African. So obviously just some founder effect going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
Btw read this study. In the Bronze age "nearly 100%" of Iberian samples had steppe R1 lineages. So my guess is most E-M81 in Iberia comes after the Bronze age.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230
I don't see why you give much of a shit about possibly having a few drops of Berber ancestry. The Numidians were great cavalrymen and played a major role in destroying some of Rome's biggest armies under Hannibal. Also the later Moors had an advanced culture. These weren't 75 IQ people living in mud huts. Nor would they have even looked all that different from Celts and Iberians.
Well.The Romans never made it to Sweden. They did what is now Bavaria and Austria though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos777
The later moors were as retarded as any moor That You could imagine. It is a myth that they were advanced. If they were it, why were thy defeated, to start? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
If they were it, why and How did such advances disappear? A Benjamin button racial case maybe? :laugh:
The same as what happened to the Spanish empire. Spain had the 4th biggest empire in world history now they just have Spain. How did Spanish military might dissapear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
Mycanaean Greeks did excursions to Sweden thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
I don't know if you have heard about that but there have been found Ancient Inscriptions in Mycanaean in Sweden
I know... 22% of galicians have J2 and a decent bunch in Lugo (where my last name comes) have R1b-L21, guess what they have in common with greeks and limeys: Nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo
The curious thing is how the fuck that happend, even the case of the pasiegos are more curious, being like an hybrid of basques and burgalese castillians genetically.
I4246, Bell Beaker, 2473-2030 cal BCEQuote:
Originally Posted by Nassbean
mtDNA: E1b1b1a(xE1b1b1a1)
Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras (14) in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA and, like ~3000 BCE Moroccans, can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans and Early Neolithic Europeans.
Waaaaaaaaay old E1b... Before the arrive of the Bell-Beakers (R1b-DF27) and the Celts (R1b-DF27 & R1b-U152). This people (E1b) mixed with EEF and the WHG, and there is our small iberomaurusian (or a big part of it) explained. Of course the celts made it smaller, and that´s it.
On PCA in genome wide affinity he clusters with Late Neolithic Morrocans. They aren't really in the European zone genetically. These aren't the same as the Sardinian like farmers who settled Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
Anyway, this guy precedes the Steppe incursion into Iberia. And lastly E1b1b1a is not E1b1b-M81.
How were Late Neolithic Moroccans? Let's see how it was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hades
Target: MAR_LN:KEB.4
Distance: 2.9750% / 0.02975041
65.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.0 MAR_Taforalt
5.8 Levant_Natufian
1.4 ITA_Villabruna
Nothing less tham 67% european according my ancient components model. This E-M78 was technically an EEF with strong iberomaurisian ancestry, and surprisingly, levantine farmer.
you're dishonest this individual was unique among the other samples from the same era simply because he was north african not a local iberian. So again try to find a copper or bronze age sample with e1b1b good luckQuote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
He clusters with both modern and late neolithic moroccansQuote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
as you can see he's very close to me :
Distance to: Nassbean_scaled
0.07035651 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246
Very similar :
https://i.imgur.com/lHubB1v.png
if this haplogroup was mainly brought by EEF we would have at least found the same amount of it all over southern europe but that's not the case there is a big contrast between iberia and other parts of Europe and no copper or bronze samples had this haplogroup + EEF themselves rarely had this Haplogroup. So as I said most of it came directly from north africa during ancient and medieval times ( Punic, roman and moorish presence).