Where did haplogroup E1b1b in Europeans come from?

[Arch Hades]

Strawman or not,

your entire premise is wrong. I don’t get why you think that it could only spread with extremely young civilizations like Greeks or Romans. E-V13 and especially it’s predecessor E-M78 is old as fuck. The most logical theory for its distribution is assimilation of this Haplo from neolithics in Europe by Indo-Europeans spreading it with them, that explains why it’s equally found in R1b and R1a dominant countries. And a founder effect in the Balkans making it more common there.

As for how it came into Europe. The Neolithic farmer theory doesn’t hold much water anymore due to an almost complete lack of E1b in Neolithic farmers. E-M78 or not. Which makes sense because Natufians were the only E people to have contact with AHG and ANF but they left no more than around 10 percent of their DNA which means the contact with Natufians was minimal.

Some people say it could have been Cardial ware culture, but their origin in the Levant in large part from Natufians they almost certainly had to have a good chunk of lineages that are downstream E-Z827 but that wasn’t found among them? So it sounds like bullshit to me.

So far the only logical conclusion to E-V13 ancestor in Europe is directly from North Africa from the Capsian culture in the Mesolithic. There have even been some archeological sites in Balkans where those Mesolithic people had close connections to North African Mesolithic culture.

But who the fuck knows for sure. We need more samples.


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And Where and When do you think this founder effect happened? It obviously happened far after the Neolithic. I'd say the modern distribution favors a Balkan origin too.

[Arch Hades]

I think yes, Pasiegos are Numidians







Seriously, stop searching hilarious stories to justify the North African agenda. It sucks.

You do realize there are Isolated and mountainous Berber groups who look just as White as them, right? Who else do you think the ancient Egyptians stereotyped as pasty white with red hair in their art? Secondly, people who are just as White as them can have even a Black ancestor somewhere in the woodpile so having an off White ancestor from Numidia would be nothing.

Lastly didn't you read that paper on Iberia that came out about a year ago? The Bronze age Iberians all came out R1b. So id say most E-M81 in Iberia at least post dates the Bronze age

[Daos777]

And Where and When do you think this founder effect happened. It obviously happened far after the Neolithic. I'd say the modern distribution favors a Balkan origin too

To my best knowledge. Bronze Age. E-V13 in Sweden for example is a completely different subclade than the one in Balkans, it does not come from the Balkans(earlier than Bronze Age)


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...#V13_subclades


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[Arch Hades]

To my best knowledge. Bronze Age. E-V13 in Sweden for example is a completely different subclade than the one in Balkans, it does not come from the Balkans(earlier than Bronze Age)


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...#V13_subclades


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So there's been an Ancient DNA study where a sample in Sweden carried E1B1B-V13?

[Cristiano viejo]

You do realize there are Isolated and mountainous Berber groups who look just as White as them, right?e

Hahahahahahahahahha

Some Pasiegos more








Pasiegos look nothing like North Africans, and have nothing to do with them, nor culturally nor linguistically nor anything

[Daos777]

So there's been an Ancient DNA study where a sample in Sweden carried E1B1B-V13?

We just know by the different subclades and their estimated ages, that northern E-V13 don’t come directly from Balkans in the time period and the cultures you’re suggesting it came from. Northern E-V13 is not from Greeks or Romans. As is the case with Siberian and Tajik E-V13.

[Arch Hades]

Hahahahahahahahahha

Some Pasiegos more








Pasiegos look nothing like North Africans, and have nothing to do with them, nor culturally nor linguistically nor anything

And what's the frequency of E-M81 in them?

[Arch Hades]

We just know by the different subclades and their estimated ages, that northern E-V13 don’t come directly from Balkans in the time period and the cultures you’re suggesting it came from. Northern E-V13 is not from Greeks or Romans. As is the case with Siberian and Tajik E-V13.

Well until ancient DNA validates that id remain skeptical. Anyway regarding Sweden it's a very trivial lineage in Swedes. My original post you responded to is talking about it's major expansion and in areas it actually became dominant in. Like the Balkans and Southern Italy. In Neolithic times it wasnt dominant in those areas..we know this via ancient DNA.

Btw. The E-V13 in Austria and Southern Germany? Is it the Northern one or Balkan one?

[Cristiano viejo]

And what's the frequency of E-M81 in them?

Around 40% of Pasiegos are m81.

[Daos777]

Well until ancient DNA validates that id remain skeptical. Anyway regarding Sweden it's a very trivial lineage in Swedes. My original post you responded to is talking about it's major expansion and in areas it actually became dominant in. Like the Balkans and Southern Italy. In Neolithic times it wasnt dominant in those areas..we know this via ancient DNA.

Btw. The E-V13 in Austria and Southern Germany? Is it the Northern one or Balkan one?

Depends on the clade.

But for the most part those clades are "Northern" by which I mean they separated from the ancestor of the Balkan branch a long time ago. Balkan people such as Illyrians, Greeks, Thracians were not the people who brought it there. It was an earlier culture. If the majority of E-V13 subclades in the North were balkan ones what you're saying would make sense.