Dodecad k12b West, Central & South Asian results Vol. 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javid

We can barely see any difference between Azerbaijani_Iran and Azerbijanu Republic averages but you are saying that Republic Azerbaijanis are much closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Additionally most of the regions you mentioned here (except Shaki) are populated by other ethnic groups, not Azerbaijanis: Lezgins — in Qusar, Quba and Khachmaz; Avars, Tsakhurs, Ingilois and many others — in Balakan, Zagatala and Gakh; Malakans (Slavic) — in Ismailli. That's the reason why there's very few tests from that region.

My point was to show the diversity. To show that there is a great deal of heterogeneity (not everything as clear cut as you suggest), and that northern parts are have not been tested enough. They constitute a substantial part of the population, and are predominantly Azerbaijani.

As for the northern regions we have:
Qusar - yes, majority Lezgin, but has some Azerbaijani villages.
Quba - not that many Lezgins in comparison, predominately tats that have been assimilated by now. I would know, I am from Quba.
Khachmaz - predominantly Azeri, with substantial Lezgin population.
Ismailli - Molokans in here are mainly concentrated in Ivanovak, which only has 3000 people. In total, the Russians constitute negligible part of the population of Ismayilli. The rest is Azerbaijani plus Lezgin, which are going full assimilation.
Qax, Balakan etc. - you are clearly underestimating speed with which the assimilation has advanced. This regions have long ago became predominantly Azeri.
Then there is Sheki, Shamaki, Oguz, Siyazan, Shabran. And you are telling me this does not count? :D

Quote:

I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan but I have to say that turkic people of Azerbaijan Republic mostly came from either from Iranian Azerbaijan or Anatolia (North West region mainly). So I think it's impossible to say that Azerbaijanis in Republic is closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.

There is no clear consensus on ethnogenesis of Azerbaijanis. Hence the substantial difference between different sub-populations. There was a PCA plot somewhere which shows this clearly. Yes, some sub-populations such as southern regions, Karabakh are very close to Iranian Azerbaijanis (notice importance of geographic proximity), while the northern regions (+ Derbend) clearly differ. These northern regions are not as small as you trying to portray them. Assimilation that has been ongoing for centuries had changed the region's ethnic composition.

Quote:

I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan

I have attended classes of Azerbaijani history, and no offense, they are chock full of fallacies. So much revisionism of history, attempts to Turkify almost everything that I can't take it seriously, neither should you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sterling Archer

My point was to show the diversity. To show that there is a great deal of heterogeneity (not everything as clear cut as you suggest), and that northern parts are have not been tested enough. They constitute a substantial part of the population, and are predominantly Azerbaijani.

As for the northern regions we have:
Qusar - yes, majority Lezgin, but has some Azerbaijani villages.
Quba - not that many Lezgins in comparison, predominately tats that have been assimilated by now. I would know, I am from Quba.
Khachmaz - predominantly Azeri, with substantial Lezgin population.
Ismailli - Molokans in here are mainly concentrated in Ivanovak, which only has 3000 people. In total, the Russians constitute negligible part of the population of Ismayilli. The rest is Azerbaijani plus Lezgin, which are going full assimilation.
Qax, Balakan etc. - you are clearly underestimating speed with which the assimilation has advanced. This regions have long ago became predominantly Azeri.
Then there is Sheki, Shamaki, Oguz, Siyazan, Shabran. And you are telling me this does not count? :D

There is no clear consensus on ethnogenesis of Azerbaijanis. Hence the substantial difference between different sub-populations. There was a PCA plot somewhere which shows this clearly. Yes, some sub-populations such as southern regions, Karabakh are very close to Iranian Azerbaijanis (notice importance of geographic proximity), while the northern regions (+ Derbend) clearly differ. These northern regions are not as small as you trying to portray them. Assimilation that has been ongoing for centuries had changed the region's ethnic composition.

I just wrote some of the ethnic groups in these regions, of course there are many others. One thing is clear that Azerbaijani turks are not majority in: Qusar, Quba, Balakan, Qakh, Zagatala and not surprisingly in those regions NE is very high. Turks of those places are very few and they probably are assimilated lezgins, avars and etc and they.

Other regions that you have mentioned (Shaki, Oghuz, Qabala, Siyazan and Shamakhy) here have Turkic majority and again not surprisingly they have normal NE for Azerbaijanis around 9%, 10% and sometimes 11%. Ismailly can be a bit different because there are significant Molokan and Lezgin population there.

I'm not saying Nothern part are small or something. I'm just saying that most of the Northern region are populated by other ethnic groups. Azerbaijanis of those places are very few and they are mostly assimilated Caucasians.

Any other region (not only Karabakh) has nearly the same averages with Iranian Azerbaijan despite the 200 years of separation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javid

I just wrote some of the ethnic groups in these regions, of course there are many others. One thing is clear that Azerbaijani turks are not majority in: Qusar, Quba, Balakan, Qakh, Zagatala and not surprisingly in those regions NE is very high. Turks of those places are very few and they probably are assimilated lezgins, avars and etc and they.

I'm not saying Nothern part are small or something. I'm just saying that most of the Northern region are populated by other ethnic groups. Azerbaijanis of those places are very few and they are mostly assimilated Caucasians.

Azeris are majority in Quba, Khachmaz, Balakan, Qakh and Zaqatala, only exception being Qusar. This is a fact. I have not seen any other statistics contrary to this and I don't know where you take your data. What Azeris have assimilated here is irrelevant (by that logic, Azeris in the south probably have assimilated talysh, kurd etc. Do we disregard them?), the result is that they are Azeris, just like in Derbent, Tabriz, Kars, Kalbajar (had major Kurdish populations), Lachin (again, used to have big Kurdish).
So, you can't disregard the Northern regions, as they are majority Azeri and should be further studied.

Quote:

Other regions that you have mentioned (Shaki, Oghuz, Qabala, Siyazan and Shamakhy) here have Turkic majority and again not surprisingly they have normal NE for Azerbaijanis around 9%, 10% and sometimes 11%. Ismailly can be a bit different because there are significant Molokan and Lezgin population there.

Few results from this regions suggest NE>10% usually. They are close to Azerbaijani_Dagestan rather than Azerbaijani_Iran.

Quote:

Any other region (not only Karabakh) has nearly the same averages with Iranian Azerbaijan despite the 200 years of separation.

That is why I mentioned geographic proximity, it is key here. I'm not denying that say Karabakh Azeris are close to Iranian Azeris. What I'm trying to stress is that there is a very big potion of the country that is not accounted for. Contrary to what you are incorrectly saying, they should be accounted for. For example, not that many results from Quba. One Azerbaijani from Quba that I know scored NE=16% (or 18%). And that whole region is missing. More tests will surely show the differences between different population clusters.

This is not a bad thing :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp

Made new averages for Persians that are not represented by the current averages, not saying they should be used but I still can show them here:

Central Iran:
https://i.imgur.com/WwrvXZs.png

Code:

Gedrosian: 27.04 Siberian: 0.96 Northwest_African: 0.37 Southeast_Asian: 0.64 Atlantic_Med: 6.16 North_European: 7.35 South_Asian: 5.77 East_African: 0.78 Southwest_Asian: 12.87 East_Asian: 0.66 Caucasian: 36.64 Sub_Saharan: 0.68 Distance to: Iran_Central 2.89205809 Iranian_Fars 4.67301830 Yazidi 5.03705271 Lur_Iran 5.07377571 Iran_C_East 5.09387868 Iranian 5.39392251 Kurd_Sorani 6.10942714 Kurd_Kurmanji 6.26991228 Talysh_Azerbaijan 6.57186427 Iran_Khorasan 7.36805945 Azerbaijani_Iran 7.66835054 Kurd_KAZ 7.70552399 Zaza 8.30219248 Iran_Mazandaran 8.69313522 Azerbaijani 9.73280021 Azerbaijani_Turkey 11.50502934 Turk_Southeast 12.42142504 Azerbaijani_Dagestan 12.64367035 Udi_Azerbaijan 12.64558816 Iraqi_Baghdad 13.61564174 Parsi_India 14.39660029 Turk_East 14.72497199 Iran_Arab 14.90382501 Turk_Central_East 15.16603112 Turk_South 15.41227433 Mandean Distance: 1.6382% / 1.63821927 Target: Iran_Central | ADC: 1x RC 70.0 Iranian_Fars 24.1 Talysh_Azerbaijan 4.6 Iranian 1.3 Kurd_Iran

Muslim Persians from Southeast (Kerman & Yazd):
https://i.imgur.com/W4xX2cJ.jpg

Code:

Gedrosian: 29.71 Siberian: 0.99 Northwest_African: 0.30 Southeast_Asian: 0.21 Atlantic_Med: 6.09 North_European: 8.31 South_Asian: 7.60 East_African: 0.85 Southwest_Asian: 12.19 East_Asian: 0.34 Caucasian: 32.96 Sub_Saharan: 0.49 Distance to: Iran_C_East 4.10665314 Iran_Khorasan 4.58541165 Iranian_Fars 5.07377571 Iran_Central 8.86715287 Iranian 9.02535872 Yazidi 9.03735028 Lur_Iran 9.55405673 Iran_Mazandaran 9.88406799 Kurd_Sorani 10.38632274 Parsi_India 10.72913324 Kurd_Kurmanji 11.00971389 Talysh_Azerbaijan 11.61917811 Azerbaijani_Iran 12.05926200 Kurd_KAZ 12.29972764 Iran_Bandari 12.49279392 Zaza 12.51648513 Azerbaijani 13.86884999 Azerbaijani_Turkey 14.07807160 Tajik_Herat 14.55548694 Azerbaijani_Dagestan 15.19324521 Turk_Southeast 16.25764128 Iraqi_Baghdad 17.30855858 Udi_Azerbaijan 17.33499351 Iran_Arab 17.62101019 Lezgin 18.25069588 Tsakhur_Azerbaijan Distance: 1.5069% / 1.50690106 Target: Iran_C_East | ADC: 0.25x RC 54.8 Iranian_Fars 15.4 Iran_Mazandaran 14.0 Yagnobi 12.8 Parsi_India 3.0 Balochi Distance: 2.8652% / 2.86522605 Target: Iran_C_East | ADC: 1x RC 54.9 Iran_Khorasan 45.1 Iranian_Fars

Iranians from Khorasan (this one should replace the old average):
https://i.imgur.com/94UDcvg.jpg

Code:

Gedrosian: 28.01 Siberian: 1.89 Northwest_African: 0.34 Southeast_Asian: 0.29 Atlantic_Med: 6.34 North_European: 9.65 South_Asian: 7.63 East_African: 0.44 Southwest_Asian: 10.14 East_Asian: 2.84 Caucasian: 32.17 Sub_Saharan: 0.26 Distance to: Iran_Khorasan 4.10665314 Iran_C_East 6.52196289 Iranian_Fars 10.23406566 Yazidi 10.38528767 Iranian 10.63411021 Kurd_Iran 10.89079887 Azerbaijani_Iran 11.00347672 Lur_Iran 11.21455305 Kurd_Sorani 11.29245323 Parsi_India 11.34193987 Azerbaijani 11.43593896 Kurd_Kurmanji 11.64028350 Talysh_Azerbaijan 11.65305968 Iran_Mazandaran 12.09814449 Tajik_Herat 12.77682277 Azerbaijani_Turkey 13.16070667 Azerbaijani_Dagestan 13.16269349 Zaza 13.53295976 Kurd_KAZ 13.57530478 Iran_Bandari 14.14508042 Turk_Southeast 15.30758962 Turkmen_Iran 16.04966666 Lezgin 16.37283421 Turk_South 16.55549758 Tsakhur_Azerbaijan 17.04088613 Yagnobi Distance: 1.5852% / 1.58516407 Target: Iran_Khorasan | ADC: 0.5x RC 79.6 Iran_C_East 16.5 Turkmen_Iran 3.9 Tajik_Tajikistan Distance: 1.6577% / 1.65766470 Target: Iran_Khorasan | ADC: 1x RC 80.2 Iran_C_East 19.8 Turkmen_Iran

New improved Mazandaran average (should replace old average):

Code:

Gedrosian: 33.07 Siberian: 0.48 Northwest_African: 0.25 Southeast_Asian: 0.26 Atlantic_Med: 2.86 North_European: 5.68 South_Asian: 5.27 East_African: 0.32 Southwest_Asian: 10.96 East_Asian: 0.26 Caucasian: 40.38 Sub_Saharan: 0.19 Distance to: Iran_Mazandaran2 5.80141362 Iranian 7.75125151 Lur_Iran 8.37274149 Kurd_KAZ 9.02773504 Talysh_Azerbaijan 9.20149988 Iranian_Fars 9.55405673 Iran_C_East 9.98348136 Yazidi 11.23298268 Kurd_Iran 11.38994293 Kurd_Sorani 11.51538536 Kurd_Kurmanji 11.65305968 Iran_Khorasan 11.79963983 Zaza 13.38943987 Azerbaijani_Iran 15.00246646 Azerbaijani_Dagestan 15.12987773 Azerbaijani 15.32309368 Azerbaijani_Turkey 15.53476102 Udi_Azerbaijan 16.34656233 Parsi_India 17.29798543 Iran_Bandari 18.33634915 Turk_Southeast 18.41191191 Tsakhur_Azerbaijan 18.41790705 Turk_East 18.88137972 Iraqi_Baghdad 19.02821064 Lezgin Distance: 3.1540% / 3.15402515 Target: Iran_Mazandaran2 40.6 Balochi 23.8 Georgian_Turkey 23.5 Kurd_KAZ 12.1 Georgian_Svan

Kurds from Iran:

Code:

Gedrosian: 24.60 Siberian: 0.94 Northwest_African: 0.69 Southeast_Asian: 0.50 Atlantic_Med: 8.08 North_European: 7.84 South_Asian: 2.68 East_African: 0.40 Southwest_Asian: 14.56 East_Asian: 0.80 Caucasian: 38.94 Sub_Saharan: 0.04 Distance to: Kurd_Iran 1.65208959 Kurd_Kurmanji 2.40964728 Yazidi 2.75243529 Kurd_Sorani 3.44899986 Zaza 4.45614183 Azerbaijani_Iran 4.45734226 Talysh_Azerbaijan 5.31698223 Iran_Central 5.42853571 Lur_Iran 5.64417399 Kurd_KAZ 5.78879089 Azerbaijani 6.04573403 Iranian 6.63254853 Azerbaijani_Turkey 6.89876076 Iranian_Fars 8.03219771 Turk_Southeast 8.64363928 Udi_Azerbaijan 9.72097732 Iraqi_Baghdad 9.83524784 Iran_C_East 10.22813766 Turk_East 10.63411021 Iran_Khorasan 11.23298268 Iran_Mazandaran 11.33238280 Turk_Central_East 11.73445781 Mandean 11.79381618 Azerbaijani_Dagestan 12.32558315 Turk_South 12.36706918 Azeri_Jew Distance: 1.3647% / 1.36469372 Target: Kurd_Iran | ADC: 1x RC 72.0 Kurd_Kurmanji 28.0 Kurd_Sorani

Improved Fars province average:

Code:

Gedrosian: 27.21 Siberian: 1.00 Northwest_African: 1.37 Southeast_Asian: 0.70 Atlantic_Med: 5.81 North_European: 6.19 South_Asian: 5.89 East_African: 1.22 Southwest_Asian: 14.47 East_Asian: 0.87 Caucasus: 33.94 Sub_Saharan: 0.31 Distance to: Iran_Fars 0.68934752 Iranian_Fars 2.88811357 Iran_Central 4.97001006 Iran_C_East 5.38177480 Lur_Iran 5.58930228 Yazidi 5.64317287 Kurd_Sorani 6.50045383 Kurd_Iran 6.74175051 Iranian 6.98962088 Iran_Khorasan 7.36853445 Kurd_Kurmanji 8.13327732 Iran_Khorasan 8.16488824 Iran_Mazandaran 8.24952120 Talysh_Azerbaijan 8.70171822 Azerbaijani_Iran 9.10903947 Kurd_KAZ 9.27239451 Zaza 9.40825170 Iran_Mazandaran2 9.99158646 Azerbaijani 11.27565519 Azerbaijani_Turkey 11.81747435 Iraqi_Baghdad 12.27140986 Turk_Southeast 12.52094645 Parsi_India 13.19649196 Iran_Arab 14.52511618 Udi_Azerbaijan Distance: 1.0573% / 1.05729791 Target: Iran_Fars | ADC: 0.5x RC 52.6 Iran_C_East 27.4 Lur_Iran 16.1 Iran_Arab 3.9 Iran_Central

All new averages:

Code:

Iran_Khorasan,28.01,1.89,0.34,0.29,6.34,9.65,7.63,0.44,10.14,2.84,32.17,0.26 Iran_C_East,29.71,0.99,0.30,0.21,6.09,8.31,7.60,0.85,12.19,0.34,32.96,0.49 Iran_Central,27.04,0.96,0.37,0.64,6.16,7.35,5.77,0.78,12.87,0.66,36.64,0.68 Iran_Mazandaran2,33.07,0.48,0.25,0.26,2.86,5.68,5.27,0.32,10.96,0.26,40.38,0.19 Kurd_Iran,24.60,0.94,0.69,0.50,8.08,7.84,2.68,0.40,14.56,0.80,38.94,0.04 Iran_Fars,27.21,1.00,1.37,0.70,5.81,6.19,5.89,1.22,14.47,0.87,34.94,0.31

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Please finish deleting the obsolete/wrong pops. I will be splitting Tajik_Tajikistan into Lowland and Mountain as it was in the Balanovsky study (Hisor and Kulob = lowland, Ayni = mountain).
"Tajiks" and "Tajik_Balkh" are not needed and "Turkmen_Iran" has a duplicate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Hey Lucas not that I care much about Vahaduo but these 2 clowns (Leto and Kyp) are trying to make you an accomplice in their manipulation of Kurdish averages. I 1st became suspicious of them when they removed the Dodecad K12 calculator creators Kurdish averages which are listed at Gedmatch.

Neither one of the two are kurds or have any Kurdish DNA blogs so they really don't have any business playing with Kurdish averages.

In fact if you check the KurdishDNA blogspot at http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/search?q=dodecad
you'll see Dodecad K12 screen shots of about 20 Kurdish DNA project members which include 9 Sorani Kurds and 3 Feyli Kurds. For example if you check the Sorani and Feyli averages are close to the Dodecad K12 calculator creator's averages shown below and not what those clowns have had you put into Vahaduo. Additionally those averages (Kurdish DNA project) agree with the Iraqi kurd averages too.

Population Gedrosia Siberian Northwest_African Southeast_Asian Atlantic_Med North_European South_Asian East_African Southwest_Asian East_Asian Caucasus Sub_Saharan

Kurd 28.7 1.5 0.9 0.4 5.9 5.7 1.1 0.4 14 1 40.4 0

Kurds 28.2 0.6 0 0.6 6.3 6.7 0.8 0.1 14.3 0.2 42.2 0

Also they have no authority to declare what Iranian Kurdish averages are without proof such as from the authors. In fact, I did take the time to investigate and found about 7 or 8 that are genetically kurds based on formal stats, IBD and other means and those averages don't agree with what they are feeding you.

You can do whatever you want but IMO to maintain some credibility for yourself I would keep whatever averages where included by the Dodecad K12 calculator creator and wait until the authors supply info on who is Kurd and who is not.

I would also require solid evidence from people claiming that an average is off or purporting they have the correct average and not just take their word for it.:)

:icon_ask:
Um, excuse me but I have only added one Kurdish average - Kurd_KAZ and I now think it can be deleted. Kurmanji and Sorani are from a spreadsheet compiled a few years ago by a Turk who posts on Anthrogenica. Neither I nor Kyp had a hand in that. IMO they look okay.

@Zoro, I do think you should leave this forum. Or at the very least leave this particular thread and don't come back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Don't need to add them otherwise we would have too many Iranian averages. Please delete one of the "Turkmen_Iran" duplicates btw.

@Zoro I only created Yazidi average, the "Kurd_Iran" shouldn't be added (as I said), they are just based on the samples from the Iranian study YOU YOURSELF suspected as the Kurdish samples. But since we can't be 100% sure all of them are Kurds we shouldn't add it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp

Don't need to add them otherwise we would have too many Iranian averages. Please delete one of the "Turkmen_Iran" duplicates btw.

@Zoro I only created Yazidi average, the "Kurd_Iran" shouldn't be added (as I said), they are just based on the samples from the Iranian study YOU YOURSELF suspected as the Kurdish samples. But since we can't be 100% sure all of them are Kurds we shouldn't add it.

So why did you call the Yezidi average just Yezidi ? and not Yezidi_Kurd as I see people making even averages like Altaien_Turk or calling Iranian Azeri averages, Iran_Azerbaijani?

And who made the Zaza average? If you guys meant it in the way to distinguish the Kurdish subgroups fine but why than call the Soran and Kurmanj averages Kurd in the naming?

Population	Gedrosia	Siberian	Northwest_African	Southeast_Asian	Atlantic_Med	North_European	South_Asian	East_African	Southwest_Asian	East_Asian	Caucasus	Sub_Saharan
Kurd	28.7	1.5	0.9	0.4	5.9	5.7	1.1	0.4	14	1	40.4	0
Kurds	28.2	0.6	0	0.6	6.3	6.7	0.8	0.1	14.3	0.2	42.2	0