Dodecad k12b West, Central & South Asian results Vol. 3

**Sterling Archer** · 01-05-2021, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Javid

We can barely see any difference between Azerbaijani_Iran and Azerbijanu Republic averages but you are saying that Republic Azerbaijanis are much closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Additionally most of the regions you mentioned here (except Shaki) are populated by other ethnic groups, not Azerbaijanis: Lezgins — in Qusar, Quba and Khachmaz; Avars, Tsakhurs, Ingilois and many others — in Balakan, Zagatala and Gakh; Malakans (Slavic) — in Ismailli. That's the reason why there's very few tests from that region.

My point was to show the diversity. To show that there is a great deal of heterogeneity (not everything as clear cut as you suggest), and that northern parts are have not been tested enough. They constitute a substantial part of the population, and are predominantly Azerbaijani.

As for the northern regions we have:
Qusar - yes, majority Lezgin, but has some Azerbaijani villages.
Quba - not that many Lezgins in comparison, predominately tats that have been assimilated by now. I would know, I am from Quba.
Khachmaz - predominantly Azeri, with substantial Lezgin population.
Ismailli - Molokans in here are mainly concentrated in Ivanovak, which only has 3000 people. In total, the Russians constitute negligible part of the population of Ismayilli. The rest is Azerbaijani plus Lezgin, which are going full assimilation.
Qax, Balakan etc. - you are clearly underestimating speed with which the assimilation has advanced. This regions have long ago became predominantly Azeri.
Then there is Sheki, Shamaki, Oguz, Siyazan, Shabran. And you are telling me this does not count?

I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan but I have to say that turkic people of Azerbaijan Republic mostly came from either from Iranian Azerbaijan or Anatolia (North West region mainly). So I think it's impossible to say that Azerbaijanis in Republic is closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.

There is no clear consensus on ethnogenesis of Azerbaijanis. Hence the substantial difference between different sub-populations. There was a PCA plot somewhere which shows this clearly. Yes, some sub-populations such as southern regions, Karabakh are very close to Iranian Azerbaijanis (notice importance of geographic proximity), while the northern regions (+ Derbend) clearly differ. These northern regions are not as small as you trying to portray them. Assimilation that has been ongoing for centuries had changed the region's ethnic composition.

**Sterling Archer** · 01-05-2021, 08:34 PM

I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan

I have attended classes of Azerbaijani history, and no offense, they are chock full of fallacies. So much revisionism of history, attempts to Turkify almost everything that I can't take it seriously, neither should you.

**Javid** · 01-05-2021, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sterling Archer

My point was to show the diversity. To show that there is a great deal of heterogeneity (not everything as clear cut as you suggest), and that northern parts are have not been tested enough. They constitute a substantial part of the population, and are predominantly Azerbaijani.

As for the northern regions we have:
Qusar - yes, majority Lezgin, but has some Azerbaijani villages.
Quba - not that many Lezgins in comparison, predominately tats that have been assimilated by now. I would know, I am from Quba.
Khachmaz - predominantly Azeri, with substantial Lezgin population.
Ismailli - Molokans in here are mainly concentrated in Ivanovak, which only has 3000 people. In total, the Russians constitute negligible part of the population of Ismayilli. The rest is Azerbaijani plus Lezgin, which are going full assimilation.
Qax, Balakan etc. - you are clearly underestimating speed with which the assimilation has advanced. This regions have long ago became predominantly Azeri.
Then there is Sheki, Shamaki, Oguz, Siyazan, Shabran. And you are telling me this does not count?

There is no clear consensus on ethnogenesis of Azerbaijanis. Hence the substantial difference between different sub-populations. There was a PCA plot somewhere which shows this clearly. Yes, some sub-populations such as southern regions, Karabakh are very close to Iranian Azerbaijanis (notice importance of geographic proximity), while the northern regions (+ Derbend) clearly differ. These northern regions are not as small as you trying to portray them. Assimilation that has been ongoing for centuries had changed the region's ethnic composition.

I just wrote some of the ethnic groups in these regions, of course there are many others. One thing is clear that Azerbaijani turks are not majority in: Qusar, Quba, Balakan, Qakh, Zagatala and not surprisingly in those regions NE is very high. Turks of those places are very few and they probably are assimilated lezgins, avars and etc and they.

Other regions that you have mentioned (Shaki, Oghuz, Qabala, Siyazan and Shamakhy) here have Turkic majority and again not surprisingly they have normal NE for Azerbaijanis around 9%, 10% and sometimes 11%. Ismailly can be a bit different because there are significant Molokan and Lezgin population there.

I'm not saying Nothern part are small or something. I'm just saying that most of the Northern region are populated by other ethnic groups. Azerbaijanis of those places are very few and they are mostly assimilated Caucasians.

Any other region (not only Karabakh) has nearly the same averages with Iranian Azerbaijan despite the 200 years of separation.

**Sterling Archer** · 01-05-2021, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Javid

I just wrote some of the ethnic groups in these regions, of course there are many others. One thing is clear that Azerbaijani turks are not majority in: Qusar, Quba, Balakan, Qakh, Zagatala and not surprisingly in those regions NE is very high. Turks of those places are very few and they probably are assimilated lezgins, avars and etc and they.

I'm not saying Nothern part are small or something. I'm just saying that most of the Northern region are populated by other ethnic groups. Azerbaijanis of those places are very few and they are mostly assimilated Caucasians.

Azeris are majority in Quba, Khachmaz, Balakan, Qakh and Zaqatala, only exception being Qusar. This is a fact. I have not seen any other statistics contrary to this and I don't know where you take your data. What Azeris have assimilated here is irrelevant (by that logic, Azeris in the south probably have assimilated talysh, kurd etc. Do we disregard them?), the result is that they are Azeris, just like in Derbent, Tabriz, Kars, Kalbajar (had major Kurdish populations), Lachin (again, used to have big Kurdish).
So, you can't disregard the Northern regions, as they are majority Azeri and should be further studied.

Other regions that you have mentioned (Shaki, Oghuz, Qabala, Siyazan and Shamakhy) here have Turkic majority and again not surprisingly they have normal NE for Azerbaijanis around 9%, 10% and sometimes 11%. Ismailly can be a bit different because there are significant Molokan and Lezgin population there.

Few results from this regions suggest NE>10% usually. They are close to Azerbaijani_Dagestan rather than Azerbaijani_Iran.

Any other region (not only Karabakh) has nearly the same averages with Iranian Azerbaijan despite the 200 years of separation.

That is why I mentioned geographic proximity, it is key here. I'm not denying that say Karabakh Azeris are close to Iranian Azeris. What I'm trying to stress is that there is a very big potion of the country that is not accounted for. Contrary to what you are incorrectly saying, they should be accounted for. For example, not that many results from Quba. One Azerbaijani from Quba that I know scored NE=16% (or 18%). And that whole region is missing. More tests will surely show the differences between different population clusters.

This is not a bad thing

**Lucas** · 01-05-2021, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kyp

Made new averages for Persians that are not represented by the current averages, not saying they should be used but I still can show them here:

Central Iran:

Code:

Gedrosian: 27.04
Siberian: 0.96
Northwest_African: 0.37
Southeast_Asian: 0.64
Atlantic_Med: 6.16
North_European: 7.35
South_Asian: 5.77
East_African: 0.78
Southwest_Asian: 12.87
East_Asian: 0.66
Caucasian: 36.64
Sub_Saharan: 0.68

Distance to:	Iran_Central
2.89205809	Iranian_Fars
4.67301830	Yazidi
5.03705271	Lur_Iran
5.07377571	Iran_C_East
5.09387868	Iranian
5.39392251	Kurd_Sorani
6.10942714	Kurd_Kurmanji
6.26991228	Talysh_Azerbaijan
6.57186427	Iran_Khorasan
7.36805945	Azerbaijani_Iran
7.66835054	Kurd_KAZ
7.70552399	Zaza
8.30219248	Iran_Mazandaran
8.69313522	Azerbaijani
9.73280021	Azerbaijani_Turkey
11.50502934	Turk_Southeast
12.42142504	Azerbaijani_Dagestan
12.64367035	Udi_Azerbaijan
12.64558816	Iraqi_Baghdad
13.61564174	Parsi_India
14.39660029	Turk_East
14.72497199	Iran_Arab
14.90382501	Turk_Central_East
15.16603112	Turk_South
15.41227433	Mandean

Distance: 1.6382% / 1.63821927
Target: Iran_Central | ADC: 1x RC
70.0	Iranian_Fars
24.1	Talysh_Azerbaijan
4.6	Iranian
1.3	Kurd_Iran

Muslim Persians from Southeast (Kerman & Yazd):

Code:

Gedrosian: 29.71
Siberian: 0.99
Northwest_African: 0.30
Southeast_Asian: 0.21
Atlantic_Med: 6.09
North_European: 8.31
South_Asian: 7.60
East_African: 0.85
Southwest_Asian: 12.19
East_Asian: 0.34
Caucasian: 32.96
Sub_Saharan: 0.49

Distance to:	Iran_C_East
4.10665314	Iran_Khorasan
4.58541165	Iranian_Fars
5.07377571	Iran_Central
8.86715287	Iranian
9.02535872	Yazidi
9.03735028	Lur_Iran
9.55405673	Iran_Mazandaran
9.88406799	Kurd_Sorani
10.38632274	Parsi_India
10.72913324	Kurd_Kurmanji
11.00971389	Talysh_Azerbaijan
11.61917811	Azerbaijani_Iran
12.05926200	Kurd_KAZ
12.29972764	Iran_Bandari
12.49279392	Zaza
12.51648513	Azerbaijani
13.86884999	Azerbaijani_Turkey
14.07807160	Tajik_Herat
14.55548694	Azerbaijani_Dagestan
15.19324521	Turk_Southeast
16.25764128	Iraqi_Baghdad
17.30855858	Udi_Azerbaijan
17.33499351	Iran_Arab
17.62101019	Lezgin
18.25069588	Tsakhur_Azerbaijan

Distance: 1.5069% / 1.50690106
Target: Iran_C_East | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.8	Iranian_Fars
15.4	Iran_Mazandaran
14.0	Yagnobi
12.8	Parsi_India
3.0	Balochi

Distance: 2.8652% / 2.86522605
Target: Iran_C_East | ADC: 1x RC
54.9	Iran_Khorasan
45.1	Iranian_Fars

Iranians from Khorasan (this one should replace the old average):

Code:

Gedrosian: 28.01
Siberian: 1.89
Northwest_African: 0.34
Southeast_Asian: 0.29
Atlantic_Med: 6.34
North_European: 9.65
South_Asian: 7.63
East_African: 0.44
Southwest_Asian: 10.14
East_Asian: 2.84
Caucasian: 32.17
Sub_Saharan: 0.26

Distance to:	Iran_Khorasan
4.10665314	Iran_C_East
6.52196289	Iranian_Fars
10.23406566	Yazidi
10.38528767	Iranian
10.63411021	Kurd_Iran
10.89079887	Azerbaijani_Iran
11.00347672	Lur_Iran
11.21455305	Kurd_Sorani
11.29245323	Parsi_India
11.34193987	Azerbaijani
11.43593896	Kurd_Kurmanji
11.64028350	Talysh_Azerbaijan
11.65305968	Iran_Mazandaran
12.09814449	Tajik_Herat
12.77682277	Azerbaijani_Turkey
13.16070667	Azerbaijani_Dagestan
13.16269349	Zaza
13.53295976	Kurd_KAZ
13.57530478	Iran_Bandari
14.14508042	Turk_Southeast
15.30758962	Turkmen_Iran
16.04966666	Lezgin
16.37283421	Turk_South
16.55549758	Tsakhur_Azerbaijan
17.04088613	Yagnobi

Distance: 1.5852% / 1.58516407
Target: Iran_Khorasan | ADC: 0.5x RC
79.6	Iran_C_East
16.5	Turkmen_Iran
3.9	Tajik_Tajikistan

Distance: 1.6577% / 1.65766470
Target: Iran_Khorasan | ADC: 1x RC
80.2	Iran_C_East
19.8	Turkmen_Iran

New improved Mazandaran average (should replace old average):

Code:

Gedrosian: 33.07
Siberian: 0.48
Northwest_African: 0.25
Southeast_Asian: 0.26
Atlantic_Med: 2.86
North_European: 5.68
South_Asian: 5.27
East_African: 0.32
Southwest_Asian: 10.96
East_Asian: 0.26
Caucasian: 40.38
Sub_Saharan: 0.19

Distance to:	Iran_Mazandaran2
5.80141362	Iranian
7.75125151	Lur_Iran
8.37274149	Kurd_KAZ
9.02773504	Talysh_Azerbaijan
9.20149988	Iranian_Fars
9.55405673	Iran_C_East
9.98348136	Yazidi
11.23298268	Kurd_Iran
11.38994293	Kurd_Sorani
11.51538536	Kurd_Kurmanji
11.65305968	Iran_Khorasan
11.79963983	Zaza
13.38943987	Azerbaijani_Iran
15.00246646	Azerbaijani_Dagestan
15.12987773	Azerbaijani
15.32309368	Azerbaijani_Turkey
15.53476102	Udi_Azerbaijan
16.34656233	Parsi_India
17.29798543	Iran_Bandari
18.33634915	Turk_Southeast
18.41191191	Tsakhur_Azerbaijan
18.41790705	Turk_East
18.88137972	Iraqi_Baghdad
19.02821064	Lezgin

Distance: 3.1540% / 3.15402515
Target: Iran_Mazandaran2
40.6	Balochi
23.8	Georgian_Turkey
23.5	Kurd_KAZ
12.1	Georgian_Svan

Kurds from Iran:

Code:

Gedrosian: 24.60
Siberian: 0.94
Northwest_African: 0.69
Southeast_Asian: 0.50
Atlantic_Med: 8.08
North_European: 7.84
South_Asian: 2.68
East_African: 0.40
Southwest_Asian: 14.56
East_Asian: 0.80
Caucasian: 38.94
Sub_Saharan: 0.04

Distance to:	Kurd_Iran
1.65208959	Kurd_Kurmanji
2.40964728	Yazidi
2.75243529	Kurd_Sorani
3.44899986	Zaza
4.45614183	Azerbaijani_Iran
4.45734226	Talysh_Azerbaijan
5.31698223	Iran_Central
5.42853571	Lur_Iran
5.64417399	Kurd_KAZ
5.78879089	Azerbaijani
6.04573403	Iranian
6.63254853	Azerbaijani_Turkey
6.89876076	Iranian_Fars
8.03219771	Turk_Southeast
8.64363928	Udi_Azerbaijan
9.72097732	Iraqi_Baghdad
9.83524784	Iran_C_East
10.22813766	Turk_East
10.63411021	Iran_Khorasan
11.23298268	Iran_Mazandaran
11.33238280	Turk_Central_East
11.73445781	Mandean
11.79381618	Azerbaijani_Dagestan
12.32558315	Turk_South
12.36706918	Azeri_Jew

Distance: 1.3647% / 1.36469372
Target: Kurd_Iran | ADC: 1x RC
72.0	Kurd_Kurmanji
28.0	Kurd_Sorani

Improved Fars province average:

Code:

Gedrosian: 27.21
Siberian: 1.00
Northwest_African: 1.37
Southeast_Asian: 0.70
Atlantic_Med: 5.81
North_European: 6.19
South_Asian: 5.89
East_African: 1.22
Southwest_Asian: 14.47
East_Asian: 0.87
Caucasus: 33.94
Sub_Saharan: 0.31

Distance to:	Iran_Fars
0.68934752	Iranian_Fars
2.88811357	Iran_Central
4.97001006	Iran_C_East
5.38177480	Lur_Iran
5.58930228	Yazidi
5.64317287	Kurd_Sorani
6.50045383	Kurd_Iran
6.74175051	Iranian
6.98962088	Iran_Khorasan
7.36853445	Kurd_Kurmanji
8.13327732	Iran_Khorasan
8.16488824	Iran_Mazandaran
8.24952120	Talysh_Azerbaijan
8.70171822	Azerbaijani_Iran
9.10903947	Kurd_KAZ
9.27239451	Zaza
9.40825170	Iran_Mazandaran2
9.99158646	Azerbaijani
11.27565519	Azerbaijani_Turkey
11.81747435	Iraqi_Baghdad
12.27140986	Turk_Southeast
12.52094645	Parsi_India
13.19649196	Iran_Arab
14.52511618	Udi_Azerbaijan

Distance: 1.0573% / 1.05729791
Target: Iran_Fars | ADC: 0.5x RC
52.6	Iran_C_East
27.4	Lur_Iran
16.1	Iran_Arab
3.9	Iran_Central

All new averages:

Code:

Iran_Khorasan,28.01,1.89,0.34,0.29,6.34,9.65,7.63,0.44,10.14,2.84,32.17,0.26
Iran_C_East,29.71,0.99,0.30,0.21,6.09,8.31,7.60,0.85,12.19,0.34,32.96,0.49
Iran_Central,27.04,0.96,0.37,0.64,6.16,7.35,5.77,0.78,12.87,0.66,36.64,0.68
Iran_Mazandaran2,33.07,0.48,0.25,0.26,2.86,5.68,5.27,0.32,10.96,0.26,40.38,0.19
Kurd_Iran,24.60,0.94,0.69,0.50,8.08,7.84,2.68,0.40,14.56,0.80,38.94,0.04
Iran_Fars,27.21,1.00,1.37,0.70,5.81,6.19,5.89,1.22,14.47,0.87,34.94,0.31

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

**Leto** · 01-05-2021, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lucas

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Please finish deleting the obsolete/wrong pops. I will be splitting Tajik_Tajikistan into Lowland and Mountain as it was in the Balanovsky study (Hisor and Kulob = lowland, Ayni = mountain).
"Tajiks" and "Tajik_Balkh" are not needed and "Turkmen_Iran" has a duplicate.

**Zoro** · 01-05-2021, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lucas

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Hey Lucas not that I care much about Vahaduo but these 2 clowns (Leto and Kyp) are trying to make you an accomplice in their manipulation of Kurdish averages. I 1st became suspicious of them when they removed the Dodecad K12 calculator creators Kurdish averages which are listed at Gedmatch.

Neither one of the two are kurds or have any Kurdish DNA blogs so they really don't have any business playing with Kurdish averages.

In fact if you check the KurdishDNA blogspot at http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/search?q=dodecad
you'll see Dodecad K12 screen shots of about 20 Kurdish DNA project members which include 9 Sorani Kurds and 3 Feyli Kurds. For example if you check the Sorani and Feyli averages are close to the Dodecad K12 calculator creator's averages shown below and not what those clowns have had you put into Vahaduo. Additionally those averages (Kurdish DNA project) agree with the Iraqi kurd averages too.

Population	Gedrosia	Siberian	Northwest_African	Southeast_Asian	Atlantic_Med	North_European	South_Asian	East_African	Southwest_Asian	East_Asian	Caucasus	Sub_Saharan
Kurd	28.7	1.5	0.9	0.4	5.9	5.7	1.1	0.4	14	1	40.4	0
Kurds	28.2	0.6	0	0.6	6.3	6.7	0.8	0.1	14.3	0.2	42.2	0

Also they have no authority to declare what Iranian Kurdish averages are without proof such as from the authors. In fact, I did take the time to investigate and found about 7 or 8 that are genetically kurds based on formal stats, IBD and other means and those averages don't agree with what they are feeding you.

You can do whatever you want but IMO to maintain some credibility for yourself I would keep whatever averages where included by the Dodecad K12 calculator creator and wait until the authors supply info on who is Kurd and who is not.

I would also require solid evidence from people claiming that an average is off or purporting they have the correct average and not just take their word for it.

**Leto** · 01-06-2021, 12:03 AM

Um, excuse me but I have only added one Kurdish average - Kurd_KAZ and I now think it can be deleted. Kurmanji and Sorani are from a spreadsheet compiled a few years ago by a Turk who posts on Anthrogenica. Neither I nor Kyp had a hand in that. IMO they look okay.

@Zoro, I do think you should leave this forum. Or at the very least leave this particular thread and don't come back.

**Kyp** · 01-06-2021, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Lucas

Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?

Don't need to add them otherwise we would have too many Iranian averages. Please delete one of the "Turkmen_Iran" duplicates btw.

@Zoro I only created Yazidi average, the "Kurd_Iran" shouldn't be added (as I said), they are just based on the samples from the Iranian study YOU YOURSELF suspected as the Kurdish samples. But since we can't be 100% sure all of them are Kurds we shouldn't add it.

**Demhat** · 01-06-2021, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kyp

Don't need to add them otherwise we would have too many Iranian averages. Please delete one of the "Turkmen_Iran" duplicates btw.

@Zoro I only created Yazidi average, the "Kurd_Iran" shouldn't be added (as I said), they are just based on the samples from the Iranian study YOU YOURSELF suspected as the Kurdish samples. But since we can't be 100% sure all of them are Kurds we shouldn't add it.

So why did you call the Yezidi average just Yezidi ? and not Yezidi_Kurd as I see people making even averages like Altaien_Turk or calling Iranian Azeri averages, Iran_Azerbaijani?

And who made the Zaza average? If you guys meant it in the way to distinguish the Kurdish subgroups fine but why than call the Soran and Kurmanj averages Kurd in the naming?