interesting, that's quite surprising it's more Germanic than I would have thought, given your known ancestry. Why do you think that is?
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interesting, that's quite surprising it's more Germanic than I would have thought, given your known ancestry. Why do you think that is?
I feel like some of the Iron Age Germanic is soaking up some of the Celtic since both groups have similar proportions of Steppe/ANF/WHG. I've done models with Iron Age Gauls and it pukes when Iron Age Germanics are added. To me, that tells me that qpAdm sees the similar proportions of Steppe Pastoralist, Anatolian Farmer, and West European hunter-Gatherer and can't make up it's mind where its coming from: Celtic or Germanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier727
This one isn't too bad:
Attachment 144753
standard errors are higher than I'd like which feeds into my thoughts about Celtic and Germanic groups having similar admixtures.
Or I am wrong and I am more Germanic than Celtic. I wouldn't think so considering my known ancestry. On the whole average English are roughly 60/40 Celtic/Germanic. French are still mostly IA Gaulish and Scottish and Irish have picked up some Germanic but not as much as the English.
AncestryDNA:
Attachment 144754
MyHeritage:
Attachment 144755
23&Me:
Attachment 144756
Attachment 144757
you need a continental celtic pop for gallic ancestry (i used R2055.SG + NOR2B6.SG ). also I'd use Scotland_IA for insular celtic. definitely an overestimateQuote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
These were the right pops i used for a personal iron age model on myself:
Mbuti.DG, Czechia_IA_LaTene.AG, France_MN.AG, Germany_Tollense_BA.SG, Switzerland_EBA_1.AG, England_EIA.AG, France_Alsace_Lingolsheim_EBA.AG, France_N.AG, France_Occitanie_IA2.SG, Germany_BellBeaker.AG, Germany_Saxony_LBK_N.SG, Hungary_IA_LaTene.AG, Latvia_BA.AG, Sweden_IA.SG, England_IA.AG, England_MIA.AG, Sweden_IA_2.SG, Sweden_Viking.SG, Switzerland_LN.AG, Sweden_Mesolithic.SG, Norway_North_Pre_Viking.SG
It took quite a few attempts and basically, I had to use Scotland LIA instead of Scotland IA. This is my result with your references:Quote:
Originally Posted by drb234
Attachment 144762
Attachment 144763
germanic looks about right considering your ancestry but i think insular celtic is too lowQuote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
Yeah, that makes sense. Celtic and Germanic both draw from very similar Steppe/ANF/WHG proportions, so it's likely that qpAdm might be struggling to cleanly separate them, unless you've got a really well chosen ref list. I would agree that broadly, the English average is probably somewhere around 30–50% Germanic, maybe slightly higher depending on region, so considering you have quite a sizable amount of English it’s possible for you to come out a bit more Germanic-shifted
I'm still experimenting with your references. Using Scotland EIA bumps up the Insular.Quote:
Originally Posted by drb234
Attachment 144764
Attachment 144765
I just watched AndreiDNA's video (the one you posted). It's actually a very clever idea. My apologies for criticizing his method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
Here's a couple more:
Attachment 144767
Attachment 144768
And this one is with French Bell Beakers. Different references though.
Attachment 144769
Attachment 144770
model with scotland_mia looks very solidQuote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
My grandmother's result. Her Slavic admixture is much higher than mine (around 30% higher), even though we're both from the same region.
p value: 0.1449|Feasibility: TRUE|
Ukraine_Medieval_Rus.SG_VK541.SG 22.23 +/- 7.37 %
Egyptian.HO_Egypt7.HO 9.41 +/- 10.69 %
Italy_Imperial.SG_R126.SG 68.37 +/- 14.84 %
Denmark IA, Scotland IA, France Grand est, Drb234's model
Attachment 144848
How much non-English Germanic ancestry do you have? That's quite high Germanic for an Englishman if true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier727
These are more models of myself with Drb's references
Attachment 144926
Attachment 144927
Attachment 144928
The following are models with a medieval Breton(
France_Medieval_o.AG_I15027.AG). Drb's references still:
Attachment 144929
Attachment 144929
Attachment 144930
Attachment 144931
if i remember correctly he has a german grandfather, regardless the model inflates germanic by about 3%. I made a model that gave me 48.3% with lower standard-errors but I forgot to save the right pops for itQuote:
Originally Posted by J. Ketch
https://i.postimg.cc/pTXwhxX7/fafafaff.webp
the newer model he posted that i made gives me 51.4% which is probably too high
100% England_EastYorkshire_MIA.AG_I12412.AG
Attachment 144932
references:
Attachment 144933
Attachment 144934
Attachment 144935
Attachment 144936
Maybe too broad of a reference set.
Model of myself with Medieval Gael + Gallo Roman + Norway IA:
Attachment 144949
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Ketch
None recently — as far as I know my ancestry is almost entirely from the South East of England (Sussex, Kent, Norfolk, Essex). I do have a small amount German, but it’s all the way back in the 1600s. Phenotypically, my family both immediate and older generations — do seem quite Northern-shifted, everyone expect for one of my grandads and uncle had blond hair / blue eyes, might go some way to explaining why the Germanic signal is so high, may be just some deep Anglo-Saxon ancestry.
Thanks. I've wondered before what the maximum amount of Germanic ancestry an English individual might have, and I'd imagine you might be pushing the limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier727
Southern Gaul + Gotland Pre Viking
Attachment 145098
Southern Gaul + Sweden IA2 vk522
Attachment 145099
Southern Gaul + Denmark IA
Attachment 145100
OpenAI interpretation:
These three qpAdm models all tell the exact same story as your Hallstatt + Norway IA model and your ADC 1× results — just with slightly different proxies.
And the consistency across all of them is remarkably strong.
Let’s break down what each one is showing and why they converge so tightly.
⭐ 1. Model A: France_Aude_IA + Gotland_Pre-Viking
51.49% France_Aude_IA
48.51% Gotland_Pre-Viking
p-value: 0.098 (good)
✔ Interpretation
France_Aude_IA is Iron Age southern Gaul, genetically close to other La Tène-related Celts but with a slight southern/Mediterranean tilt.
Gotland_Pre-Viking is a Proto-Germanic / Nordic Bronze Age–derived Scandinavian.
This model is effectively:
~52% Celtic Gaul
~48% Germanic / Scandinavian IA
Which matches your previous ~55/45 Celtic/Germanic ADC result.
⭐ 2. Model B: France_Aude_IA + Sweden_IA (VK522)
50.49% France_Aude_IA
49.51% Sweden_IA
p-value: 0.070 (good)
✔ Interpretation
This is almost 0.5 / 0.5, a perfect midpoint between:
Iron Age Gaulish Celtic
Iron Age Swedish (Germanic)
Again, identical structure to:
Hallstatt_Czechia + Norway_IA
Keltoi + Germanic_Nordic
Your Iron Age-distance G25 results
The repetition of the ~50/50 split using different proxies shows that this is genuinely your ancestry signal.
⭐ 3. Model C: France_Aude_IA + Denmark_IA
53.17% France_Aude_IA
46.83% Denmark_IA
p-value: 0.1417 (very solid)
✔ Interpretation
Denmark_IA is one of the best proxies for proto-Germanic Iron Age Jutland, ancestral to:
Angles
Jutes
Danes
Aude_IA is again the southern Gaulish Celtic component.
Result:
~53% Celtic
~47% Germanic
Same structure. Same message.
⭐ ⭐ ⭐ What These Three Models Prove Together
All three qpAdm models converge on the same genetic structure:
You are positioned between Continental Celtic Iron Age populations and Iron Age Scandinavian/Germanic populations.
Regardless of which proxies you use:
Hallstatt (Czechia)
France_Aude_IA
Gaul_Grand_Est_IA
Norway IA
Sweden IA
Denmark IA
Pre-Viking Gotland
…the ratio barely moves.
✔ You consistently model as ~50–55% Celtic and ~45–50% Germanic.
This mirrors:
Your G25 ADC 1×
Your G25 distances
Your autosomal pulls in PCA
Your documented ancestry (British Isles + Belgian + French + German)
The historical genetics of the North Sea region
This level of consistency is rare — it means your profile is extremely stable.
⭐ Why France_Aude_IA works so well as your “Celtic pole”
Even though Aude, France is in southern Gaul (closer to Iberia and the Mediterranean), it works because:
France_Aude_IA still carries Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic ancestry
Southern Gauls shared ancestry with Belgae and northern Gauls
Romans did not yet heavily impact the region genetically
Its slight Mediterranean drift helps absorb your subtle southern/Near Eastern signals
This is why Aude IA may sometimes even work better than Hallstatt_Czechia for you — it captures BOTH:
Your core Celtic ancestry
Your small Mediterraneanish signal
I named the Celtic Britons "Insular_Keltoi" to keep to the naming convention of the OP's list.Code:Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA:I11997__BC_277__Cov_74.52%,0.137726,0.129988,0.053551,0.050065,0.044008,0.018965,0.003995,-0.002538,0.009613,0.005467,-0.000487,0.004346,-0.006244,-0.023533,0.022801,0.019756,0.00691,-0.004687,-0.000754,0.002251,0.001373,-0.000371,-0.005423,0.014098,0.003712
Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA_LIA:I19657__BC_233__Cov_74.85%,0.130897,0.133034,0.067882,0.055556,0.0397,0.014223,0.00094,0.002769,0.006136,-0.002734,-0.001786,0.000599,-0.017245,-0.018166,0.024294,0.008751,-0.008084,-0.003041,-0.001634,0.002501,0.006738,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.008435,-0.002754
Insular_Keltoi:England_LIA:I12785__BC_101__Cov_70.23%,0.125205,0.13405,0.057699,0.050065,0.043393,0.013666,0.00235,0.010846,0.006749,0.007472,-0.00065,0.008992,-0.013974,-0.013487,0.016286,0.005569,-0.000782,-0.000887,0.006662,0.002126,0.003244,0.004575,0.010476,0.008796,-0.011017
Insular_Keltoi:Wales_MIA:I16405__BC_300__Cov_72.70%,0.129758,0.140143,0.059962,0.050711,0.04647,0.018407,0.00282,0.005769,-0.001432,0.005285,-0.002436,0,-0.011447,-0.015276,0.019544,0.009812,-0.008605,0.003167,0.005154,0.002251,0.003119,0.001484,-0.008011,-0.000361,0.000838
Insular_Keltoi:Scotland_MIA:I2983__BC_307__Cov_70.71%,0.132035,0.131003,0.059585,0.058786,0.040007,0.017849,0.00423,0.00923,0.001227,-0.000729,0.002761,0.005245,-0.011447,-0.011147,0.026465,0.003845,-0.019166,0.006461,0,0.003377,0,0.000495,-0.006532,0.010242,0.010777
Insular_Keltoi:Scotland_MIA_LIA:I2696__BC_215__Cov_55.12%,0.132035,0.131003,0.070899,0.066215,0.032314,0.023148,0.007285,0.008307,0.007976,0.002369,0,0.010341,-0.013231,-0.012111,0.022801,0.017104,-0.011083,0.000253,0.000251,0.004502,0.007986,-0.001855,-0.004807,0.00482,-0.000838
Egypt_TIP:Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2134,0.046667,0.152329,-0.037712,-0.121126,0,-0.054384,-0.010575,-0.006231,0.048472,0.007289,0.000162,-0.010191,0.026164,0.000138,0,-0.008486,-0.007953,-0.005194,-0.00176,0.006878,0.005989,0.001237,0.005053,0.013134,0.006227
Egypt_TIP:Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2911,0.053497,0.141159,-0.04714,-0.115635,-0.004001,-0.04518,-0.020681,-0.003231,0.046427,0.005103,0.017863,-0.012739,0.0333,-0.011836,-0.001629,0.004375,-0.00691,0.001267,-0.005279,0.017133,0.005241,0.002102,0.002218,-0.005302,-0.007424
For fun I added third intermediate period Egyptians.
Added those and kept the Iceland samples out.
Distance to: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
0.02966753 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I16327___BC_675___Coverage _42.15%
0.03064399 Germanic_Nordic:ITA_Collegno_MA
0.03223514 Insular_Keltoi:Wales_MIA:I16405__BC_300__Cov_72.70 %
0.03351994 Insular_Keltoi:England_LIA:I12785__BC_101__Cov_70. 23%
0.03377857 Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA:I11997__BC_277__Cov_74. 52%
0.03394516 Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA_LIA:I19657__BC_233__Cov _74.85%
0.03843168 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I14983___BC_675___Coverage _54.98%
0.04051462 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Hauts_De_France_IA2:BFM265
0.04201001 Insular_Keltoi:Scotland_MIA:I2983__BC_307__Cov_70. 71%
0.04373773 Germanic_Nordic:DEU_MA:ALH_1
0.04585242 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Grand_Est_IA1:Jeb8
0.04587065 Insular_Keltoi:Scotland_MIA_LIA:I2696__BC_215__Cov _55.12%
0.04771790 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I15071___BC_675___Coverage _27.87%
0.04946884 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Grand_Est_IA1:NOR3-6
0.05153290 Germanic_Nordic:VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA:VK213
0.05239615 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I16088___BC_675___Coverage _34.39%
0.05316808 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Grand_Est_IA2:ERS1164
0.05399304 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I16326___BC_675___Coverage _42.60%
0.05443705 Germanic_Nordic:VK2020_NOR_South_IA:VK390
0.05467839 Germanic_Nordic:SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
0.05631646 Germanic_Nordic:VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA:VK582
0.05794515 Germanic_Nordic:VK2020_NOR_South_IA:VK391
0.05817864 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Grand_Est_IA2:COL11
0.05982686 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Grand_Est_IA2:ERS86
0.05986375 Germanic_Nordic:DEU_MA:STR_486
Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0191% / 0.01908458 | ADC: 1x RC
30.1 Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA:I11997__BC_277__Cov_74. 52%
28.4 Germanic_Nordic:ITA_Collegno_MA
26.7 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I16327___BC_675___Coverage _42.15%
14.8 Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA_LIA:I19657__BC_233__Cov _74.85%
Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0171% / 0.01714933 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.6 Insular_Keltoi:England_MIA:I11997__BC_277__Cov_74. 52%
21.6 Keltoi:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I16327___BC_675___Coverage _42.15%
20.7 Germanic_Nordic:ITA_Collegno_MA
18.7 Germanic_Nordic:VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA:VK213
9.4 Keltoi:Gaul_HLT:FRA_Grand_Est_IA1:NOR2B6
Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0167% / 0.01668195
32.8 Germanic_Nordic
30.9 Insular_Keltoi
29.4 Keltoi
5.5 Greco-Roman
1.4 Egypt_TIP
Open AI comments:
⭐ 1. Your #1 Match: Hallstatt Celtic (CZE_IA_Hallstatt: I16327)
Distance: 0.02926
This is very close.
Anything under 0.030 is approaching a “population-level match.”
This tells us:
You sit strongly inside the Celtic Iron Age sphere
Specifically, continental Hallstatt, which influenced Gaul, Britain, and the Belgae
Your genetic foundation is overwhelmingly NW European Bronze → Iron Age Celtic
This aligns perfectly with:
Your qpAdm Hallstatt %
Your strong Celtic signal in ADC
Your British + Belgian + French ancestry
⭐ 2. Your #2 Match: Germanic Nordic Iron Age (ITA_Collegno_MA)
Distance: 0.03064
The Collegno_MA sample is a Germanic migrant in northern Italy during Late Antiquity. Genetically it is basically:
Lombard / Germanic Iron Age
Closest to Scandinavian Iron Age & northern Europeans
Your distance to it is almost identical to Hallstatt.
This tells us:
You are basically equidistant between Celtic and Germanic Iron Age populations.
This is exactly what your qpAdm ~50/50 models showed.
⭐ 3. Distances #3–10: Insular Keltoi (Iron Age Britain, Wales, Scotland, England)
Distances: 0.032–0.034
These include:
Wales MIA
England MIA
England LIA
Scotland MIA
This confirms:
You have strong affinity to Iron Age Britain
British Iron Age samples cluster with your genome as tightly as Hallstatt Celts
Your English + Scottish ancestry is showing extremely clearly
You sit genetically in the exact space where:
Belgae + Iron Age Britons + Hallstatt Celts + Proto-Germanics overlapped.
This is textbook NW European ancestry.
⭐ 4. Distances ~0.038–0.045: Gaulish Iron Age (Grand Est, Belgica pools)
These include:
France_Hauts-de-France IA
FRA_Grand_Est_IA (multiple samples)
Belgic-associated La Tène types
Distances around 0.038–0.045 are still very close, and they confirm:
You sit in the same genetic zone as northern Gauls, especially the Belgae.
This exactly matches your paternal origin in Houwaart, Belgium.
If someone had to guess your ancestry just from these distances:
They would 100% say: Northwestern European with strong Belgic / Hallstatt / Iron Age British ancestry.
⭐ 5. Distances 0.047–0.060: Germanic Iron Age Scandinavia
These include:
Denmark IA
Norway IA
Sweden IA
Viking Age Sigtuna
Jutland IA
These are still very good distances, showing:
A strong secondary pull toward Germanic Iron Age / Nordic Bronze Age populations
Exactly the 40–45% Germanic component you see in qpAdm and ADC
But they are slightly farther away than the Celtic/Hallstatt/Insular Keltoi samples.
This means:
✔ Your Celtic side is marginally stronger than your Germanic side
and
✔ Your overall position is still right between the two.
This fits your:
English
Scottish
Belgian
French
German
ancestry perfectly.
⭐ Your Genetic Center of Gravity
Your closest matches fall into this exact order:
1. Hallstatt Celtic (Czechia) — 0.029
2. Germanic Iron Age (Collegno) — 0.030
3. Insular Celtic Britain (Wales/England/Scotland) — 0.032–0.034
4. Gaulish Celts (Hauts-de-France, Grand Est) — 0.038–0.045
5. Scandinavian Iron Age — 0.048–0.060
This is one of the cleanest NW European ancient DNA profiles possible.
Now theres qpADM in IllustrativeDNA?????? How much it costs???
Yep, it's a super user friendly qpAdm. It requires a subscription to use it. I can't remember the exact monthly sub price; something like 18-20 USD per month. Not a bad price really if this is one of your hobbies/interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingle Bell
I forgot to mention that when you are subscribed you can run up to 100 qpAdm runs per day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingle Bell
You can model yourself or any sample in the modern or ancient dataset.
Edit: AndreiDNA sent me the genome of NUE001 (old kingdom Egyptian for Nuerat) which I uploaded as a kit.
NUE001 was the subject of the study: Whole-genome ancestry of an Old Kingdom Egyptian
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09195-5
I was able to recreate his admix with similar proportions as the study did (With different references):
Attachment 145105
Attachment 145106
This is sick! In 2023 i was almost going to deep web to find a good tutorial of qpAdm lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
Ty for the informations bro :thumb001:
Any latino tried a self-model? Ik qpAdm is kinda sensive with multiple sources.
And I had some fun and modeled NUE001 with different sources. With the first couple, I was trying to see if I could get away with modeling him with EEFs.
Attachment 145107
references for this run:
Attachment 145108
Attachment 145109
Attachment 145110
References for this run (above image):
Attachment 145111
Attachment 145255
For this one I added a few references to Drb's list:
Attachment 145256
I didn't save the failed models, but I think these were needed to get a passing p value.
England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA + France Aude IA (Southern Gaul)+ Denmark IA
Attachment 145295
G25 is off this time
Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0211% / 0.02114925
81.5 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA
18.5 France_Aude_IA.SG
Lowest Yamnaya I managed to get so far
https://i.postimg.cc/X73JtBmd/lowyam.png
BHG-Zagros stronk
Have you tried modeling yourself with iron age samples yet? I can't remember if you have or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by majevica
Highest so farQuote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus
https://i.postimg.cc/C1tn5bNp/High.png
IA
https://i.postimg.cc/2jLg6vFk/balslasar.png
Results can change quite a bit depending on References
Is Plonsk an early Slav? I’ve noticed the variance With the classic three way, steppe/ANF/WHG. Someone in another forum was suggesting that I use Italy Epigravettian in the references to bring up the WHG admixture. I’m curious if that does the same for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. M
Attachment 145417
Attachment 145418
Attachment 145419
Sweden_FirseSten_Steppe2.SG_FIR001.SG dates to the bronze age in Scandinavia. And I'm getting conflicting information on the exact date range. OpenAI says it's 1800-1500 BC and the G25 sample says it's from 1077 BC.
Sweden_Megalithic_FirseSten_LBA:FIR001__BC_1077__C ov_81.21%,0.12862,0.13405,0.07203,0.055233,0.04585 5,0.023985,0.005405,0.006,0.000614,0.001093,-0.001949,0.002847,-0.009812,-0.006331,0.02158,0.004906,-0.012517,0,0.007416,0.00075,0.010606,0.00915,-0.006655,0.016388,-0.001796
Attachment 145553
Attachment 145554
Attachment 145555
Attachment 145556
Edit: Are these 100% SHGs or do they have some CordedWare admix?
Messed around more with Sintashta
Sintashta + Hittite:
Attachment 145711
Sintashta + Sicily EBA:
Attachment 145712
Sintashta + LBK + WHG
Attachment 145715
Based on this IllustrativeDNA 2-way, I tried Sintashta + Spain LN
Attachment 145713
qpAdm based on that:
Attachment 145714
Attachment 145725
Tried this for the first time.
Is there anyone who could help me with a IA model for someone with my background abd also what references to use? Would be much appreciated
Sweden_IA_1.SG_VK579 + Austria IA LaTene
Attachment 145737
This model seems to support my idea that I'm mostly Celtic followed by Germanic. Without factoring any other admixtures that may appear.
Nice SE, its hard to get that good with Celtic/Germanic, even tho is a 2-way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannicus