What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/40...plogroupI1.gif
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/38...106Eupedia.gif
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What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/40...plogroupI1.gif
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/38...106Eupedia.gif
I1, if I had to pick one.
Finland is a good proof for I1, actually the best.
If it is I1,
the three most germanic countries would be: 1.Sweden 2.Norway 3.Finland.
Hotspot: eastern Norway + western Sweden.
If it R-U106,
the three most germanic countries would be: 1.Netherlands 2.Luxembourg 3.UK
Hospot: Netherlands + Friesland, Tournai's area and greater Luxembourg.
Actually West Finland is about 45-55% I1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
R-U106 is older than meta-ethnicites, it is "Doggerlander" y-dna which is why it is more common in Netherlands and reaching into Britain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
And for those that dont know, the Finnish I1 is old, the regions are 100% Finnish speaking and have been since 300-500AD
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Originally Posted by Äijä
That's possible but,
Why is Finland not germanic while they would have one the highest amount of "proto-germanic" origin ?
That is the question, why did they shift language to that of the Estonian Vikings? Hope to get foreigners interested in this also. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
Germanics are highly associated as a fairly even meshing of "Old Europe" and Indo-European Europe. Finland might be Finnic speaking, but it isn't entirely of Siberian-stock...it will be still much moreso so-called "Mesolithic Euro". and this subclade of "I" is very Mesolithic.
Because those proto-Germanics were assimilated into the Finnish poplulations. Possible they killed off indigenous males. Children learn their language from their mothers, hence mother tongue. I1-M253 marker stems from a male born in present day Denmark circa 5500 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
Finnish I1, can it descend from pre-Saxon ancestry?
http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/201...-from-pre.htmlQuote:
It has gone almost year since I last time visited FtDna's I1-project, being quite tired of the usual pathetic ydna discussion. Now after a little pushed by another Finnish guy I took a look and noticed that the SNP-based phylogenetic tree shows more upstream matches for Finnish Bothnians than a year ago. Most of new matches are from England which obviously mirrors the testing activity more than enything else. Anyway, it looks like the Bothnian I1 descends from something like Anglo-Saxons, but we have to date it, accoring to the clade age (made by Ken Nordtvedt and others), to the time before Anglo-Saxon British migrations. Here are those connected directly to Bothnians, They form an own class between all other I1 branches and Bothnians.
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The history of Finnish I1 was pretty long unkown and was a target of speculations although many Finns being aware of the Finnish history were able to see more and understand the course of history, actually pretty well (on our Finnish forums treating the Finish history was a member calling himself Moses Leone. He stated 8 years ago that the Finnish I1 was older than usually supposed and bound to Iron Age migrations). What we know now more is based on new Y-chromosome related information. It shows us hidden history of male ancestral lines thousands years back. And what can we now say for sure based on the new information? It is the same as many hints have given for us to presume already years ago. So we don't know now more basics, we only can broaden our knowledge with new facts.
Keeping in mind the Finnish history, not only genetics but also archaeological and linguistic evidences (known already around 200-300 years) it is undeniable that the Bothnian group is closely related to a certain Central European clade, known by the ydna-mutation CTS2208. Out of touch of this mutation the relation can be confirmed also by STR-statistics. STR-statistics can give misleading information if used to explain a single individual result more than hundreds years back in time, but statistical results are still valid. The more we have high classified samples the more history can be plumbed.
http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/201...om-pre_18.html
The Finnic part of Finns comes from Estonia via Volga-Kama during the Bronze Age so calling it as Siberian-stock population has no backing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CordedWhelp
Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...
The Finnish I1 are pretty specific, I would like to hear suggestions of potential tribes they could match in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by CordedWhelp
It is obvious I1 is proto-Germanic. Scandinavian languages are the true proto-Germanic languages. Modern day German is around 65% indo-European for example, and closer to Slavic as opposed to Scando tongues, rest is proto-germanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by CordedWhelp
Jutes, Angles most likely, where I1 originated from. Don't confuse Goths with Swedish Gotland. They were from Jutland, same pronounciation as Goths, Jutes names present day Gotland in Sweden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
R-U106
The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.
The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.
From the Late Middle Ages until the early 20th century, the Germans expanded across much of modern Poland, pushing as far as Latvia to the north-east and Romania to the south-east. During the same period the Austrians built an empire comprising what is now the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, and parts of Romania, western Ukraine and southern Poland. Many centuries of German and Austrian influence in central and Eastern Europe resulted in a small percentage of Germanic lineages being found among modern populations. In Romania 4% of the population still consider themselves German. The low percentage of R1b-S21 in Finland, Estonia and Latvia can be attributed to the Swedish or Danish rule from the late Middle Ages to the late 19th century.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...shtml#S21-U106
This is supported by the fact that earliest language contact to proto-Germanic is proto-Finnic, it narrows the possible Urheimat region from Finland to Sweden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
How did I1 become Germanic ?
From 2800 BCE, a large-scale cultural and genetic upheaval hit Scandinavia with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans from Eastern Europe, who introduced the Copper Age and Early Bronze Age practically without Neolithic transition. The first Indo-Europeans to reach Scandinavia were the Corded Ware people from modern Russia, Belarus and Poland, who are thought to have belonged predominantly to haplogroup R1a. These people shared some similar maternal lineages as Scandinavian I1 inhabitants, including mtDNA haplogroups U2e, U4 and U5, but also brought many new lineages such as H2a1, H6, W and various subclades of I, J, K and T.
The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE).
According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis, first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, Proto-Germanic was a hybrid language mixing Indo-European (R1b, and to a lower extent R1a) and pre-Indo-European (native Nordic I1) elements. This hybridisation would have taken place during the Bronze Age and given birth to the first truly Germanic civilization, the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
They can both be germanic considering R-U106 is found in north portugal probably due to the Suebic tribe but I1 is proto-germanic. R-U106 can even be considered some kind of proto-celtic or proto-belgae and associated with ancient doggerlanders like my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
Ouch,Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
"The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE)."
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
Corresponds with I1, Don't be so ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._%28map%29.PNG
You're the ignorant here, if you had read everything, you would have understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
Germanic languages are indo-european, close to celtic and italic languages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornj%C3%B3tQuote:
Fornjót (Old Norse: Fornjótr) was an ancient giant in Norse mythology and a king of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.
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The saga deals with the arrival of the Norse gods to Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling dynasty at Uppsala.
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In the initial stanzas of the poem Asagarth is the capital of Asaland, a section of Asia to the east of the Tana-kvísl or Vana-Kvísl river (kvísl is "fork"), which Snorri explains is the Tanais, or Don River, flowing into the Black Sea. The river divides "Sweden the Great", a concession to the Viking point of view. It is never called that prior to the Vikings (Section 1).
The river lands are occupied by the Vanir and are called Vanaland or Vanaheim. It is unclear what people Snorri thinks the Vanes are, whether the proto-Slavic Venedi or the east Germanic Vandals, who had been in that region at that time for well over 1000 years.
He does not say; however, the Germanic names of the characters, such as Njord, Frey and Vanlandi, indicate he had the Vandals in mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglinga_sagaQuote:
Odin is the chief of Ásgarðr. From there he conducts and dispatches military expeditions to all parts of the world. He has the virtue of never losing a battle (Section 2). When he is away, his two brothers, Vili and Vé, rule Ásaland from Ásgarðr.
On the border of Sweden is a mountain range running from northeast to southwest.
South of it are the lands of the Turks, where Odin had possessions; thus, the mountains must be the Caucasus Mountains. On the north are the uninhabitable fells, which must be the tundra/taiga country. Apparently the Vikings did not encounter the Urals or the Uralics of the region. Snorri evidences no knowledge of them.
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In the Scandinavian sources they are the descendants of Yngvi-Frey of Vanaheim. Yngling means descendant of Frey, and in the Gesta Danorum of Saxo Grammaticus they are called the sons of Frey. Several of these kings appear in Beowulf: Eadgils (Adils), Onela (Ale), and Ohthere (Ottar Vendelkråka), but here they are called Scylfings (see the Beowulf section below).
Snorri Sturluson hints at a less divine origin in Skáldskaparmál for this dynasty: One war-king was named Skelfir; and his house is called the House of Skilfings: his kindred is in the Eastern Land. In the 13th century, the official Swedish/Scandinavian term for the modern-day Southern Finland was "Eastern Land", Österland, i.e. the eastern half of Sweden at the time.
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In Ynglinga Saga in 1220 AD, Snorri Sturluson discusses marriages between Swedish and Finnish royal families. In 1220 AD (c.), in the Skáldskaparmál section of Edda, Sturluson discusses King Halfdan the Old, Nór's great-grandson, and nine of his sons who are the forefathers of various royal lineages, including "Yngvi, from whom the Ynglings are descended".
According to Orkneyinga Saga in 1230 AD, Nór founded Norway. He was a direct descendant of Fornjótr, the King of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.
Many Scandinavian historians name Halfdan the Old as an ancestor to Rollo, the Viking conqueror who founded Normandy and took the name Robert I (the first) after converting to Christianity. He is William the Conqueror's great grandfather.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YnglingQuote:
In 1387 AD, Hversu Noregr byggðist ('How Norway was inhabited') is an account of the origin of various legendary Norwegian lineages.
It too traces the descendants of the primeval Finnish ruler Fornjotr back to Nór, who is here the eponym and first great king of Norway, and then gives details of the descendants of Nór and of his brother Gór in the following section known as the Ættartölur ('Genealogies', a.k.a. Fundinn Noregr, 'Founding of Norway'). The Hversu account is closely paralleled by the opening of the Orkneyinga saga.
The 'genealogies' also claim that many heroic families famed in Scandinavian tradition but not located in Norway were of a Finn-Kven stock, mostly sprung from Nór's great-grandson Halfdan the Old. Almost all the lineages sprung from Halfdan are then shown to reconvert in the person of Harald Fairhair, the first king of "all Norway". This information can be confirmed in other sources.
We are discussing proto-Germanic, if you had read everything, you would have understood as well lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
That doesn't mean anything, all is there:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
R-U106
The arrival of the R-U106 correspond of the birth of the nordic Bronze Age and germanic languages in Scandinavia.Quote:
R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.
Baltic Finns appear in the map like magic later.
Like they dont exist in the sagas yet they have been in the region since Bronze Age, this should raise questions but it usually does not.
Not to mention the N1c appearance in the region.
Map of the Pre-Roman Iron Age cultures associated with Proto-Germanic, ca 500 BC–50 BC. The area south of Scandinavia is the Jastorf culture. Again, corresponds with I1. If you are so adamant that R-U106 is proto-germanic than why bother opening a thread to discuss lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...CEXPANSION.GIF
Guapo, all is there:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
Germanic languages is an indo-european language while I1 is a pre-indo-european population, the R-U106 are obviously the proto-germanic who settled in Scandinavia and mixed.Quote:
According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis, first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, Proto-Germanic was a hybrid language mixing Indo-European (R1b, and to a lower extent R1a) and pre-Indo-European (native Nordic I1) elements. This hybridisation would have taken place during the Bronze Age and given birth to the first truly Germanic civilization, the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).
Map means nothing but if that can console you.:thumb001:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
If you are so adamant that R-U106 is proto-germanic than why bother opening a thread to discuss lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
Proto-language can be placed in a small region at start, first contacts proto-Germanic had was with proto-Finnic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
Looking at linguistics and genetics most likely regions are, Svealand, Gotland and SW Finland.
I'm waiting for a serious proof that I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
In fact, it's endless debate because germanic culture was created by the hybridation of both group.
You're too obnoxious to believe anything else other that your pompous self inflated French ego. Read Äijä's posts and stop quoting me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
Guapovitch, already butthurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
Äijä's post doesn't prove that R-U106 isn't at the origin of the proto-germanic languages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
I have no reason to be butthurt but apparently you are by me for whatever sick reason is in your head concerning this petty issue considering you keep quoting me.
Uppsala is a good pick for ground zero and I would focus at the I1 and N1c more than R-U106 that fits with Geats that where always under the King at Uppsala.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamla_UppsalaQuote:
Medieval Scandinavians held Gamla Uppsala as one of the oldest and most important locations in Scandinavia.
The Danish chronicler Saxo Grammaticus held Odin himself to have resided in Gamla Uppsala far back in the mists of time:
At this time there was one Odin, who was credited over all Europe with the honour, which was false, of godhead, but used more continually to sojourn at Uppsala; and in this spot, either from the sloth of the inhabitants or from its own pleasantness, he vouchsafed to dwell with somewhat especial constancy.[10]
Swedish Haplogroup Database
The distribution of haplogroups across regions and counties for the oldest known ancestors
http://www.dna.scangen.se/index.php?...database=other