What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?

[Vojvod]

R-U106

The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.

The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.

From the Late Middle Ages until the early 20th century, the Germans expanded across much of modern Poland, pushing as far as Latvia to the north-east and Romania to the south-east. During the same period the Austrians built an empire comprising what is now the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, and parts of Romania, western Ukraine and southern Poland. Many centuries of German and Austrian influence in central and Eastern Europe resulted in a small percentage of Germanic lineages being found among modern populations. In Romania 4% of the population still consider themselves German. The low percentage of R1b-S21 in Finland, Estonia and Latvia can be attributed to the Swedish or Danish rule from the late Middle Ages to the late 19th century.

They can both be germanic considering R-U106 is found in north portugal probably due to the Suebic tribe but I1 is proto-germanic. R-U106 can even be considered some kind of proto-celtic or proto-belgae and associated with ancient doggerlanders like my previous post.

[Lawalye]

They can both be germanic considering R-U106 is found in north portugal probably due to the Suebic tribe but I1 is proto-germanic. R-U106 can even be considered some kind of proto-celtic or proto-belgae and associated with ancient doggerlanders like my previous post.

Ouch,

"The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE)."

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

[Vojvod]

Ouch,

"The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE)."

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

Corresponds with I1, Don't be so ignorant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language

[Lawalye]

Don't be so ignorant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language

You're the ignorant here, if you had read everything, you would have understood.

Germanic languages are indo-european, close to celtic and italic languages.

[Äijä]

Jutes, Angles most likely, where I1 originated from. Don't confuse Goths with Swedish Gotland. They were from Jutland, same pronounciation as Goths, Jutes names present day Gotland in Sweden.

Fornjót (Old Norse: Fornjótr) was an ancient giant in Norse mythology and a king of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornj%C3%B3t

The saga deals with the arrival of the Norse gods to Scandinavia and how Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling dynasty at Uppsala.

In the initial stanzas of the poem Asagarth is the capital of Asaland, a section of Asia to the east of the Tana-kvísl or Vana-Kvísl river (kvísl is "fork"), which Snorri explains is the Tanais, or Don River, flowing into the Black Sea. The river divides "Sweden the Great", a concession to the Viking point of view. It is never called that prior to the Vikings (Section 1).

The river lands are occupied by the Vanir and are called Vanaland or Vanaheim. It is unclear what people Snorri thinks the Vanes are, whether the proto-Slavic Venedi or the east Germanic Vandals, who had been in that region at that time for well over 1000 years.
He does not say; however, the Germanic names of the characters, such as Njord, Frey and Vanlandi, indicate he had the Vandals in mind.

Odin is the chief of Ásgarðr. From there he conducts and dispatches military expeditions to all parts of the world. He has the virtue of never losing a battle (Section 2). When he is away, his two brothers, Vili and Vé, rule Ásaland from Ásgarðr.
On the border of Sweden is a mountain range running from northeast to southwest.

South of it are the lands of the Turks, where Odin had possessions; thus, the mountains must be the Caucasus Mountains. On the north are the uninhabitable fells, which must be the tundra/taiga country. Apparently the Vikings did not encounter the Urals or the Uralics of the region. Snorri evidences no knowledge of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglinga_saga

In the Scandinavian sources they are the descendants of Yngvi-Frey of Vanaheim. Yngling means descendant of Frey, and in the Gesta Danorum of Saxo Grammaticus they are called the sons of Frey. Several of these kings appear in Beowulf: Eadgils (Adils), Onela (Ale), and Ohthere (Ottar Vendelkråka), but here they are called Scylfings (see the Beowulf section below).

Snorri Sturluson hints at a less divine origin in Skáldskaparmál for this dynasty: One war-king was named Skelfir; and his house is called the House of Skilfings: his kindred is in the Eastern Land. In the 13th century, the official Swedish/Scandinavian term for the modern-day Southern Finland was "Eastern Land", Österland, i.e. the eastern half of Sweden at the time.

In Ynglinga Saga in 1220 AD, Snorri Sturluson discusses marriages between Swedish and Finnish royal families. In 1220 AD (c.), in the Skáldskaparmál section of Edda, Sturluson discusses King Halfdan the Old, Nór's great-grandson, and nine of his sons who are the forefathers of various royal lineages, including "Yngvi, from whom the Ynglings are descended".

According to Orkneyinga Saga in 1230 AD, Nór founded Norway. He was a direct descendant of Fornjótr, the King of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.

Many Scandinavian historians name Halfdan the Old as an ancestor to Rollo, the Viking conqueror who founded Normandy and took the name Robert I (the first) after converting to Christianity. He is William the Conqueror's great grandfather.

In 1387 AD, Hversu Noregr byggðist ('How Norway was inhabited') is an account of the origin of various legendary Norwegian lineages.
It too traces the descendants of the primeval Finnish ruler Fornjotr back to Nór, who is here the eponym and first great king of Norway, and then gives details of the descendants of Nór and of his brother Gór in the following section known as the Ættartölur ('Genealogies', a.k.a. Fundinn Noregr, 'Founding of Norway'). The Hversu account is closely paralleled by the opening of the Orkneyinga saga.

The 'genealogies' also claim that many heroic families famed in Scandinavian tradition but not located in Norway were of a Finn-Kven stock, mostly sprung from Nór's great-grandson Halfdan the Old. Almost all the lineages sprung from Halfdan are then shown to reconvert in the person of Harald Fairhair, the first king of "all Norway". This information can be confirmed in other sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling

[Vojvod]

You're the ignorant here, if you had read everything, you would have understood.

Germanic languages are indo-european, close to celtic and italic languages.

We are discussing proto-Germanic, if you had read everything, you would have understood as well lol

[Lawalye]

Corresponds with I1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language

That doesn't mean anything, all is there:

R-U106

R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.

The arrival of the R-U106 correspond of the birth of the nordic Bronze Age and germanic languages in Scandinavia.

[Äijä]

Baltic Finns appear in the map like magic later.

Like they dont exist in the sagas yet they have been in the region since Bronze Age, this should raise questions but it usually does not.

Not to mention the N1c appearance in the region.

[Vojvod]

That doesn't mean anything, all is there:

R-U106



The arrival of the R-U106 correspond of the birth of the nordic Bronze Age and germanic languages in Scandinavia.

Map of the Pre-Roman Iron Age cultures associated with Proto-Germanic, ca 500 BC–50 BC. The area south of Scandinavia is the Jastorf culture. Again, corresponds with I1. If you are so adamant that R-U106 is proto-germanic than why bother opening a thread to discuss lol

[Lawalye]

Map of the Pre-Roman Iron Age cultures associated with Proto-Germanic, ca 500 BC–50 BC. The area south of Scandinavia is the Jastorf culture. Again, corresponds with I1.

Guapo, all is there:

According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis, first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, Proto-Germanic was a hybrid language mixing Indo-European (R1b, and to a lower extent R1a) and pre-Indo-European (native Nordic I1) elements. This hybridisation would have taken place during the Bronze Age and given birth to the first truly Germanic civilization, the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).

Germanic languages is an indo-european language while I1 is a pre-indo-european population, the R-U106 are obviously the proto-germanic who settled in Scandinavia and mixed.