Bosniaks raise their kids with Turkish culture

[RandoBloom]

Bosnia was a province in Croatia just like Dalmatia, Slavonia etc.
After Croatia entered into personal union with Hungary they let the provincial state of Bosnia have their rulers called ban's thus why the name Banovina Bosnia.

Croatian rulers in Bosnia:
Ban Borić (Slavonian nobleman from Croatia, catholic) was the first ban which was subject of the the Croat-Hungarian king
Ban Kulin (Slavonian nobleman, catholic) was speaking Croatian
Ban Stjepan Kulinić (son of Kulin) was heavily relying on the Croat-Hungarian crown. Worth mentioning is that the name Stjepan is a tradional Croatian name.
Ban Matej Ninoslav (Catholic, Matej tradional Croatian name) was accused of heresy. After the Pope send his envoy he declared himself Catholic.
Ban Prijezda I. (catholic, vassal of Croat-Hungarian crown)
Ban Prijezda II. (catholic)

Forming of a Croatian-Serbian dynasty:
Ban Stjepan I. called Kotroman (founder of dynasty Kotromanić) married daughter of Serbian king Dragutin hoping to have strong allies on the east. Croatian strongest noble familly Šubići didnt like that allience so they overthrow him from ruling the Banovina Bosnia and started rulling by themself.

Croatian:
Ban Pavao I. Šubić (Šubić noble family) Bribirski takes the title: Ban of Croatia, and Dalmatia, and the lord of Bosnia
Ban Mladen I. (brother of Pavao) killed by rebels
Ban Mladen II. (son of Mladen) got defetead in the Battle of Bliska by the son of the Stjepan I. (Kotromanić), Stjepan II. and takes again the rule Banovina Bosnia.

Croatian+Serbian:
Ban Tvrtko I. (nephew of Stjepan II., Kotromanić, Catholic) declared himself king of Bosnia but Pope (who in that had the only right to crown a king) refused such thing. He was still a vassal of the Croat-Hungarian crown altrough his self proclaimed title.
Stjepan Dabiša (nephew of Sjepan I., Kotromanić dynasty)
Stjepan Ostoja (Kotromanić dynasty) basicly Kotromanić are mixed serbs-croats thus why they usually have Croatian and Serbian names in them)
Stjepan Ostojić (Kotromanić)
Tvrtko II. (Kotromanić, son of Tvrtko I.) Turks in this period started already heavily attacking Bosnia. Sultan Murat II. attacked Bosnia twice with huges armies. Later on Tvrtko II. was forced to pay Danak. He asked the Croat-Hungarian union for assistance.

King Stjepan Tomaš (Kotromanić, Catholic)
Stjepan Tomašević (Kotromanić)

Conclusion: Kotromanić were a mix between Croatian and Serbian families.

Just before the Turks started consantly attacking Bosnia and Herzegovina this is how the religions were looking like:
Catholics: around 750.000 (just proving my point of how this was dominantly Croatian province)
krstjans (basicly a mix of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Rome and Orthodox called them heretics): 80.000
Orthodox: 50.000

What is even your point about Catholicism? Every single Bosnian ruler, sans Matej was a Catholic since the Bilino Polje declaration and even he renounced the heresy after Hungarian crusade was defeated. So was the whole of Europe from Kievan Rus westward.
I can't believe you're honestly standing here and claiming someone to be a Croat based on religion.

Why would a vassal ask his liege for assistance? He is entitled to protection if he were a part of that state. Bosnia was for a long time vassal of Hungarians. Because Hungarians ruled Croatia and their King took the Croat crown for himself that makes us ruled by Croats? The leaps of logic you had to take to get there are astounding.

Kotromanic's are not Serbo-Croatian dynasty, they were founded by Cotromanus Tadesco a German noble sent by Hungarian king following the death of Kulin and his disputed succession due to the failures of his son Stjepan.

You for yourself decide what a Croat name is which again is a leap in logic. You're simply envious as all small people are.

[Böri]

...

I suspect Bosniensis account is yours. What means your sig I spot word Turci?

[The Destroyer]

What is even your point about Catholicism? Every single Bosnian ruler, sans Matej was a Catholic since the Bilino Polje declaration and even he renounced the heresy after Hungarian crusade was defeated. So was the whole of Europe from Kievan Rus westward.
I can't believe you're honestly standing here and claiming someone to be a Croat based on religion.

Why would a vassal ask his liege for assistance? He is entitled to protection if he were a part of that state. Bosnia was for a long time vassal of Hungarians. Because Hungarians ruled Croatia and their King took the Croat crown for himself that makes us ruled by Croats? The leaps of logic you had to take to get there are astounding.

Kotromanic's are not Serbo-Croatian dynasty, they were founded by Cotromanus Tadesco a German noble sent by Hungarian king following the death of Kulin and his disputed succession due to the failures of his son Stjepan.

You for yourself decide what a Croat name is which again is a leap in logic. You're simply envious as all small people are.

90% of what you said is right, except the Catholic part. Kulin Ban renouncing the Bosnian Chruch was simply a fake. All Bosnian bans and kings except the last 2 (Stjepan Tomaš and Stjepan Tomašević) were Bogomils.

Ban Stjepan II was married to his wife by the did/djed of the Bosnian Chruch, King Ostoja held the Bosnian Chruch djed as his first advisor and right-hand man, the most Catholic Crusades were launched during 14th and 15th centuries, etc. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong.

[Mraz]

That dude probably buys a gallon of Jana bought from Konzum and drinks it everyday as a ritual to Croaticise him, but at the end he is some Shokac living in Bosnia.

[RandoBloom]

I suspect Bosniensis account is yours. What means your sig I spot word Turci?

I was on this forum before your profile was, nevermind Bosniensis. I was called upon in the darkest hours of this forum in a forum far far away by another Bosniak to file a response. Take that as you will.

90% of what you said is right, except the Catholic part. Kulin Ban renouncing the Bosnian Chruch was simply a fake. All Bosnian bans and kings except the last 2 (Stjepan Tomaš and Stjepan Tomašević) were Bogomils.

Ban Stjepan II was married to his wife by the did/djed of the Bosnian Chruch, King Ostoja held the Bosnian Chruch djed as his first advisor and right-hand man, the most Catholic Crusades were launched during 14th and 15th centuries, etc. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong.

False or not, honest conversion or dishonest claim the fact is whenever they were asked to publicly declare their faith they did so. Even Kulin starts his charter with "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost".

That dude probably buys a gallon of Jana bought from Konzum and drinks it everyday as a ritual to Croaticise him, but at the end he is some Shokac living in Bosnia.

It is sad what happened to once proud Bosniaks, that they would betray their nation over religion. Sickening to be honest.

[Cool Story Bro]

Once again im going to take source from De Administrando Imperio:

The Croats to the west swore allegiance to Rome, influenced by neighboring Catholic kingdoms, while the Serbs to the east fell under Byzantine influence and embraced Orthodoxy; these religious differences became part of their defining themselves as distinct peoples or ethnic groups.

According to the most important source for west balkans medieval history; Byzantinian source De Administrando Imperio (DAI), most of Bosnia region was divided by Croats (counties: Pliva, Pesenta, Livno) and Serbs.

No Bosnians are mentioned as a nationality in the vast pages of DAI.

Image 1: shows Croats living in modern day Croatia and BiH during the 8th and 9th century


Image 2: Croatian kingdom druing the 11th century, Modern day Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Just confirms what DAI said about Croats to the West and Serbs to the East.



Suammary: All the rulers until Tvrtko.1 came from Croatian noble families (šubići, Borić, Kulinić,). Later on they got mixed with Serbs. They all were speaking Croatian, they had the same religion just like the rest of Croatians, they had traditional Croatian names (Matej, Stjepan, Pavao, Mladen...). Bosnia was just a province of Croatia just like Dalmatia or Slavonia. Byzantinian source De Administrando Imperio confirmed how Bosnia was divided by Croats and Serbs. King Tomislav (first king of Croatia) was crowned in a city called Tomislavgrad which is present day Bosnia and Hercegovina. First document of province Bosnia Charter of Ban Kulin is stored in Dubrovnik (Croatia). Later on a Hercegovina region was created by another from Croatian noble families: Kosača and Hrvatinić (Hrvat-Croat) could it be more obvious. All these people fighted together with rest of Croatian noble families against Hungarian king Žigmund when he tried to take parts of Bosnia...

[Cool Story Bro]

I suspect Bosniensis account is yours. What means your sig I spot word Turci?

Zene su ko Turci. Puno pricaju, nista ih ne razumijes i treba ih sutati u bubrege.
Women are like Turks. They talk a lot but you cant understand them so you need to beat them up.

Just shows the kind of people im dealing with.

[Böri]

Zene su ko Turci. Puno pricaju, nista ih ne razumijes i treba ih sutati u bubrege.
Women are like Turks. They talk a lot but you cant understand them so you need to beat them up.

Buthurt obviously, not to mention a Turk would beat the sh•t out of him.

[TheGoldenSon]

Bosnia was a province in Croatia just like Dalmatia, Slavonia etc.
After Croatia entered into personal union with Hungary they let the provincial state of Bosnia have their rulers called ban's thus why the name Banovina Bosnia.

Croatian rulers in Bosnia:
Ban Boriæ (Slavonian nobleman from Croatia, catholic) was the first ban which was subject of the the Croat-Hungarian king
Ban Kulin (Slavonian nobleman, catholic) was speaking Croatian
Ban Stjepan Kuliniæ (son of Kulin) was heavily relying on the Croat-Hungarian crown. Worth mentioning is that the name Stjepan is a tradional Croatian name.
Ban Matej Ninoslav (Catholic, Matej tradional Croatian name) was accused of heresy. After the Pope send his envoy he declared himself Catholic.
Ban Prijezda I. (catholic, vassal of Croat-Hungarian crown)
Ban Prijezda II. (catholic)

Forming of a Croatian-Serbian dynasty:
Ban Stjepan I. called Kotroman (founder of dynasty Kotromaniæ) married daughter of Serbian king Dragutin hoping to have strong allies on the east. Croatian strongest noble familly Šubiæi didnt like that allience so they overthrow him from ruling the Banovina Bosnia and started rulling by themself.

Croatian:
Ban Pavao I. Šubiæ (Šubiæ noble family) Bribirski takes the title: Ban of Croatia, and Dalmatia, and the lord of Bosnia
Ban Mladen I. (brother of Pavao) killed by rebels
Ban Mladen II. (son of Mladen) got defetead in the Battle of Bliska by the son of the Stjepan I. (Kotromaniæ), Stjepan II. and takes again the rule Banovina Bosnia.

Croatian+Serbian:
Ban Tvrtko I. (nephew of Stjepan II., Kotromaniæ, Catholic) declared himself king of Bosnia but Pope (who in that had the only right to crown a king) refused such thing. He was still a vassal of the Croat-Hungarian crown altrough his self proclaimed title.
Stjepan Dabiša (nephew of Sjepan I., Kotromaniæ dynasty)
Stjepan Ostoja (Kotromaniæ dynasty) basicly Kotromaniæ are mixed serbs-croats thus why they usually have Croatian and Serbian names in them)
Stjepan Ostojiæ (Kotromaniæ)
Tvrtko II. (Kotromaniæ, son of Tvrtko I.) Turks in this period started already heavily attacking Bosnia. Sultan Murat II. attacked Bosnia twice with huges armies. Later on Tvrtko II. was forced to pay Danak. He asked the Croat-Hungarian union for assistance.

King Stjepan Tomaš (Kotromaniæ, Catholic)
Stjepan Tomaševiæ (Kotromaniæ)

Conclusion: Kotromaniæ were a mix between Croatian and Serbian families.

Just before the Turks started consantly attacking Bosnia and Herzegovina this is how the religions were looking like:
Catholics: around 750.000 (just proving my point of how this was dominantly Croatian province)
krstjans (basicly a mix of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Rome and Orthodox called them heretics): 80.000
Orthodox: 50.000

Which of these rulers ever called himself a Croats? In which document did they atribute themselves to a "Croat people" or speaking a "Croat language"? They referred to themselves as Bošnjani and Bosnian rulers, never Croats or Serbs.

Most of medieval interactions of Bosniaks and Croats were of constant warfare and betrayal, even greater than with the Serbs. To find a historical conclusion that these are "same people just divided by the Turks" are just moronic and a pathetic attempt to justify Croatization of Bosniak Catholic heritage.

[RandoBloom]

Once again im going to take source from De Administrando Imperio:

The Croats to the west swore allegiance to Rome, influenced by neighboring Catholic kingdoms, while the Serbs to the east fell under Byzantine influence and embraced Orthodoxy; these religious differences became part of their defining themselves as distinct peoples or ethnic groups.

According to the most important source for west balkans medieval history; Byzantinian source De Administrando Imperio (DAI), most of Bosnia region was divided by Croats (counties: Pliva, Pesenta, Livno) and Serbs.

No Bosnians are mentioned as a nationality in the vast pages of DAI.

Image 1: shows Croats living in modern day Croatia and BiH during the 8th and 9th century


Image 2: Croatian kingdom druing the 11th century, Modern day Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Just confirms what DAI said about Croats to the West and Serbs to the East.



Suammary: All the rulers until Tvrtko.1 came from Croatian noble families (šubići, Borić, Kulinić,). Later on they got mixed with Serbs. They all were speaking Croatian, they had the same religion just like the rest of Croatians, they had traditional Croatian names (Matej, Stjepan, Pavao, Mladen...). Bosnia was just a province of Croatia just like Dalmatia or Slavonia. Byzantinian source De Administrando Imperio confirmed how Bosnia was divided by Croats and Serbs. King Tomislav (first king of Croatia) was crowned in a city called Tomislavgrad which is present day Bosnia and Hercegovina. First document of province Bosnia Charter of Ban Kulin is stored in Dubrovnik (Croatia). Later on a Hercegovina region was created by another from Croatian noble families: Kosača and Hrvatinić (Hrvat-Croat) could it be more obvious. All these people fighted together with rest of Croatian noble families against Hungarian king Žigmund when he tried to take parts of Bosnia...

The same DAI that you like to mention recalls Bosnia as being ruled by Serbia. Which would imply it is Serbian teritory. Further sources however show that Serbs conqured Bosnia in 943 during the reign of Chaslav, and lost Bosnia in 960 during the Magyar raids. Yet DAI doesn't mention at all this expansion or previous history in greater detail, focusing rather on curent narative that will help his son Roman rule the Byzantine empire.

Again you keep going with the idea of Croat names. Where did you even pull that idea out? Let me guess, to you the Bosniak names are Murat, Suljo, Mujo and more.