DNA map of Ireland reveals the Irish have Viking and Norman ancestry and are far more genetically

[Skjaldemjøden]

Some calculators place my Jutlandic grandfather in Orkney.

[Token]

Could you elaborate on what he said? Also would that mean that all the admixture breakdown is incorrect for both Ireland and Britain because the same method was used for all the clusters.

There are several problems with this study:

1. They use random, modern and admixed populations as proxies of supposedly ancient admixture.

2. They model Irish, a Northwestern European population, as partly French and Spanish and you might know what the algorithm does in such a situation: it tries to compensate the southern shift with a more northern shift, and this is why such high Scandinavian percentages pops out of nowhere. In a similar way i can model Spaniards as half Norwegian and half Sardinian, but that doesn't necessarily reflects a admixture event between these two populations.

The only way to quantify Norse admixture would be getting Norse samples, pre Norse Irish samples, and post Norse Irish samples, and look for excess rare allele sharing with the Norse Viking in post Norse Irish to the exclusion of pre Norse samples, like Reich's Anglo-Saxon paper did.

[Grace O'Malley]

There are several problems with this study:

1. They use random, modern and admixed populations as proxies of supposedly ancient admixture.

2. They model Irish, a Northwestern European population, as partly French and Spanish and you might know what the algorithm does in such a situation: it tries to compensate the southern shift with a more northern shift, and this is why such high Scandinavian percentages pops out of nowhere. In a similar way i can model Spaniards as half Norwegian and half Sardinian, but that doesn't necessarily reflects a admixture event between these two populations.

The only way to quantify Norse admixture would be getting Norse samples, pre Norse Irish samples, and post Norse Irish samples, and look for excess rare allele sharing with the Norse Viking in post Norse Irish to the exclusion of pre Norse samples, like Reich's Anglo-Saxon paper did.

That sounds reasonable to me.

The problem then would also be the same for all the clusters and also the People of the British Isles study. Basically this would be a problem for all the recent dna studies because they are all using the same methods.

I do agree with you though about the ancient genomes. I'm sure they will do this once they have the genetic breakdown of these samples. They already should have this data so I'm sure that will be looked at in the future.

If you look at the Irish sample on in the G25 and use any French sample there the Irish come out a lot higher Norwegian than this study though. The French sample in this study was majority Breton and they are not very southern shifted.







Any study like this would have the same issues with using modern populations. There is a study being done by Copenhagen University with Viking samples and they are looking at populations where Vikings went to see if they can find out if they left genetic traces and also to see if the Vikings then are similar to present day Scandinavians.

[Token]

That sounds reasonable to me.
The problem then would also be the same for all the clusters and also the People of the British Isles study. Basically this would be a problem for all the recent dna studies because they are all using the same methods.

Only the Irish DNA Atlas and the recent Iberian paper uses modern references to try to quantify ancient admixture, and both of them have the same problems. In the Iberian paper, they model Spaniards with Southwestern French, Northwestern Africans, Italians and Irish, which makes zero sense to me and is obviously going to produce skewed results, and it did. At best we can conclude that some Irish regions were more affected by Norse incursion, shown by higher affinity with Norwegians in comparison to other regions.

If you look at the Irish sample on in the G25 and use any French sample there the Irish come out a lot higher Norwegian than this study though. The French sample in this study was majority Breton and they are not very southern shifted.

That shows you how the algorithm can be misleading. The G25 French average lands in the Central French cluster, and to get to modern-day Irish you'd need a lot of additional Northern European admixture. Using Britanny, the algorithm needs less Northern European because Bretons are already quite northern shifted in comparison to most Frenchmen. Without context, admixture is useless.

[Grace O'Malley]

Only the Irish DNA Atlas and the recent Iberian paper uses modern references to try to quantify ancient admixture, and both of them have the same problems. In the Iberian paper, they model Spaniards with Southwestern French, Northwestern Africans and Irish, which makes zero sense to me and is obviously going to produce skewed results, and it did. At best we can conclude that some Irish regions were more affected by Norse incursions shown by higher affinity with Norwegians in comparison to other regions.


That shows you how the algorithm can be misleading. The G25 French average lands in the Central French cluster, and to get to modern-day Irish you'd need a lot of additional Northern European admixture. Using Britanny, the algorithm needs less Northern European because Bretons are already quite northern shifted in comparison to most Frenchmen. Without context, admixture is useless.

It wasn't just the IDA and the Spanish paper that used modern samples. The same was done with the People of the British Isles and also a Danish study done about 2 to 3 years ago. I'm sure there are others as well as I don't keep up with every genetic study. All the studies that use admixture are done with modern populations. So this means all these studies are using flawed mythology in regards to admixture. I wonder what the reasoning is with these geneticists using these methods? Surely they are aware of the issue? Also how do they work out when these admixtures occur? Are all the methods flawed?

It is obviously very difficult then to ascertain admixture in any population.

I do understand where you are coming from with this.

[Davystayn]

This study is really interesting in how regional it is tying with historical events. I always thought the Irish must have a good amount of norse dna so 20% isn't surprising.

I am English, Irish/Welsh parent wise and on trueancestry I got 96% match with Norwegian viking and 96% match with gaelic settler Iceland.

[Davystayn]

Scots and Norn Irish are very similar, but that isnt a surprise.
Rangers FC fans and Orange marchers would love that graph, good thing is most dont know what a computer is. Dexterity with a flute not a keyboard.

Yes they would, they would say they knew it all along!

It would be interesting to compare Glasgow based rangers and celtic fans and compare with the nationalist & unionist communities in Northern lreland.