Evidence of a Germanic presence in eastern Europe

[d3cimat3d]

The extinct eastern branch of Germanic peoples must have left a pretty striking genetic legacy, however I have extreme doubts of how much of a genetic impact the Varangians/Rus had, at least in comparison to the former Scandinavian/Germanic outposts in Eastern Europe. As far as I know, the Rus were more or less a dominant, small aristocratic group whose system of governance above genetics and culture, which was Slavicised over time, was the only tangible legacy they left.

You're right about the Kievan Rus being mostly a aristocratic group, but think of how many Slavic fair maidens they slept with every night...

[Basil]

I have read that the Russian I1s are mostly of Finno-Ugrian origin and doesn't mark any intermixing with Germanics. It's a pre-Germanic haplogroup and the indigenous medieval Finno-Ugrian tribes (which weren't exclusively N1c) got it before Germanics came to the scene. Probably the only area where you can expect some kind of proper Germanic influence is the area with the highest percentage of R1a (62,7) and the lowest one of N1c (4,5). I mean the Livni town area. At least I don't have a convincing explanation how it comes that I1 prevails over N1c in this area (8,2 % to 4,5 %). My paternal village is near Livni by the way. Probably we are the descendants of the Western Slavic settlers already partially mixed with Germanics before the migration to the east.

[Agrippa]

I have read that the Russian I1s are mostly of Finno-Ugrian origin and doesn't mark any intermixing with Germanics. It's a pre-Germanic haplogroup and the indigenous medieval Finno-Ugrian tribes (which weren't exclusively N1c) got it before Germanics came to the scene. Probably the only area where you can expect some kind of proper Germanic influence is the area with the highest percentage of R1a (62,7) and the lowest one of N1c (4,5). I mean the Livni town area. At least I don't have a convincing explanation how it comes that I1 prevails over N1c in this area (8,2 % to 4,5 %). My paternal village is near Livni by the way. Probably we are the descendants of the Western Slavic settlers already partially mixed with Germanics before the migration to the east.

Well, we can't be absolutely sure, but look at various of the areas with a higher percentage of N being actually weak in I1, like Mezen having zero of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezen

Vologda on the other hand, with a Germanic (as well as Finno-Ugrian) influence, has all variants of I being present, not just I1(a), but also I1c!

Unzha too has higher frequencies of I1(a), I1c and R1b!

Finland and Estonia have weaker frequencies of I1c from what I know and Eupedia says, and that even though they have a significant Indoeuropean and Germanic influence too!

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

But of course, that's a lot of speculation and without higher resolutions it might be hard to tell from which group f.e. I1 came into an area, though I still think a Germanic presence is relatively likely for an explanation...

[Äike]

Well, we can't be absolutely sure, but look at various of the areas with a higher percentage of N being actually weak in I1, like Mezen having zero of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezen

Vologda on the other hand, with a Germanic (as well as Finno-Ugrian) influence, has all variants of I being present, not just I1(a), but also I1c!

Unzha too has higher frequencies of I1(a), I1c and R1b!

Finland and Estonia have weaker frequencies of I1c from what I know and Eupedia says, and that even though they have a significant Indoeuropean and Germanic influence too!

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

But of course, that's a lot of speculation and without higher resolutions it might be hard to tell from which group f.e. I1 came into an area, though I still think a Germanic presence is relatively likely for an explanation...

Funnily enough, the largest frequency of "Germanic" I1 is in Finland, Western-Finland to be precise. The area has been settled by Swedes, but it still is weird that mixed Swedish-Finnish areas are more "Germanic" than pure Swedish/Norwegian/Danish areas.

You also have to take into consideration that Finno-Ugrics aren't all the same. Among Indo-Europeans, Germanics differ from Slavs and so on. Finno-Ugrics may have had and still have different groups of people.

We know that several Y-DNA haplogroups are associated with Indo-Europeans, but only haplogroup with the Finno-Ugrics? I find that a bit awkward.

If this is true, then I doubt that all Finno-Ugrics were homogenus.

[Pallantides]

At 23andMe I share 74.60% in genome wide comparison with a Ukrainian woman from Crimea.

Funnily enough, the largest frequency of "Germanic" I1 is in Finland, Western-Finland to be precise. The area has been settled by Swedes, but it still is weird that mixed Swedish-Finnish areas are more "Germanic" than pure Swedish/Norwegian/Danish areas.

I1 is also quite frequent in the Sámi populations:

Norwegian Sámi 40.9%
Finnish Sámi 40.6%
Swedish Sámi 31.4%
Kola Sámi 17.4%

[Sarmata]

I have read that the Russian I1s are mostly of Finno-Ugrian origin and doesn't mark any intermixing with Germanics. It's a pre-Germanic haplogroup and the indigenous medieval Finno-Ugrian tribes (which weren't exclusively N1c) got it before Germanics came to the scene. Probably the only area where you can expect some kind of proper Germanic influence is the area with the highest percentage of R1a (62,7) and the lowest one of N1c (4,5). I mean the Livni town area. At least I don't have a convincing explanation how it comes that I1 prevails over N1c in this area (8,2 % to 4,5 %). My paternal village is near Livni by the way. Probably we are the descendants of the Western Slavic settlers already partially mixed with Germanics before the migration to the east.

It's shame but I didn't know about that:
"According to Nestor tribe of Vyatichi were 'Lachy' (Lechites), similar to Lendians, and used to live in areas east from Vistula river. Due to some foreign invasion they moved to the East...the Vyatichi had already populated the Moskva basin and the area of today's Moscow."
It looks we are really strongly related.

[Agrippa]

Funnily enough, the largest frequency of "Germanic" I1 is in Finland, Western-Finland to be precise. The area has been settled by Swedes, but it still is weird that mixed Swedish-Finnish areas are more "Germanic" than pure Swedish/Norwegian/Danish areas.

First of all, obviously such haplogroups/-types can only be more or less correlated to such groups like Germanics or Finno-Ugrians - at least by now, probably that was different somewhere back in time.

However, I1 is basically Northern European and it is quite likely that the Finns are mix of old Northern Europeans with Finno-Ugrians (bringing yDNA N) and Indoeuropeans.

Also the average in Finland is lower than in North Germanic areas and it also depends on the areas of Scandinavia from which the Germanic settlers came and how the distribution was THEN.

You also have to take into consideration that Finno-Ugrics aren't all the same. Among Indo-Europeans, Germanics differ from Slavs and so on. Finno-Ugrics may have had and still have different groups of people.

Obviously the Baltic Finns are and always were the most European among the Finno-Ugrians (if ignoring today Hungarians which have little real Finno-Ugrian influences and more Central European/Indoeuropean), that's obvious.

We know that several Y-DNA haplogroups are associated with Indo-Europeans, but only haplogroup with the Finno-Ugrics? I find that a bit awkward.

If this is true, then I doubt that all Finno-Ugrics were homogenus.

My idea is, like stated, that the foreign Finno-Ugrian groups came to North Eastern Europe where they just met with older hunter-gatherer populations, which in Finland most likely carried I too, and later Indoeuropean people, from which they got a significant genflow as well.

So regardless of how homogeneous they were when they entered Western Eurasia, they were no longer homogeneous when we can distinguish the Baltic Finns from other Finns and the like...

The map showing such a wide distribution of Finno-Ugrian languages makes little sense though.

[Äike]

First of all, obviously such haplogroups/-types can only be more or less correlated to such groups like Germanics or Finno-Ugrians - at least by now, probably that was different somewhere back in time.

However, I1 is basically Northern European and it is quite likely that the Finns are mix of old Northern Europeans with Finno-Ugrians (bringing yDNA N) and Indoeuropeans.

Also the average in Finland is lower than in North Germanic areas and it also depends on the areas of Scandinavia from which the Germanic settlers came and how the distribution was THEN.

In my opinion, Finns and the Finno-Ugrians are the old hunter-gatherer Northern-Europeans. Kalevi Wiik's theory seems the most logical, I thought that he must be wrong, before reading more about his theory.

Several months ago, I bought a book titled 101 historic events in Estonian history. Historic event #1 is the first people coming to Estonia. Genetics is also mentioned.

It says that the Finno-Ugrics differ from other Europeans(it is also mentioned that Slavs, especially Russians, are an exception) by having Y-DNA haplogroup which doesn't exist in Western-Europe, Africa, India, China and Japan.

Rough translation of one chapter:

"This mutation is also widely common among most of the Siberian people. This seems to confirm the widely said assumption that the homeland of the Finno-Ugrics was in Siberia and that they moved west from there and mixed with Indo-Europeans. But gene-scientists say that this isn't so simple. According to them, it seems that the Arctic Y-DNA line has traveled from Eastern-Europe to Siberia, not the other way around."

Obviously the Baltic Finns are and always were the most European among the Finno-Ugrians (if ignoring today Hungarians which have little real Finno-Ugrian influences and more Central European/Indoeuropean), that's obvious.

Baltic-Finns are the most European, because they resemble the native UP-Europeans, the most. Genetically and anthropologically. The Finno-Ugrians further east are sadly mixed with Turkics, Siberians or Tatars. For instance Udmurts live next to Tatars, but they're extremely light featured, just like their brother-populations in Northern-Europe. Some are mixed, though.

My idea is, like stated, that the foreign Finno-Ugrian groups came to North Eastern Europe where they just met with older hunter-gatherer populations, which in Finland most likely carried I too, and later Indoeuropean people, from which they got a significant genflow as well.

So regardless of how homogeneous they were when they entered Western Eurasia, they were no longer homogeneous when we can distinguish the Baltic Finns from other Finns and the like...

My idea is, that Finno-Ugrians are native to Northern- and Eastern-Europe, and Indo-Europeans are foreign to Western- Northern- and Eastern- Europe. They're not foreign to the Balkan area.

The map showing such a wide distribution of Finno-Ugrian languages makes little sense though.

Not really... but I think that Finno-Ugrians being in modern-day UK, is slightly dubious.

[Ibericus]

Haplogroup I1 is not germanic. IE Germanics were R1b.

[Bloodeagle]

Haplogroup I1 is not germanic. IE Germanics were R1b.

I would like to point out that the Germanics that we are speaking of are of a later age and culture than the pre Germanic I1 aborigines of Germany. Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age.

The Germanic branch

The first expansion of R1a took place with the westward propagation of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (3200-1800 BCE) from the Yamna homeland. This was the first wave of R1a into Europe, one that is responsible for the presence of this haplogroup in Scandinavia, Germany, and a portion of the R1a in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary or Poland. The high prevalence of R1a in Balto-Slavic countries nowadays is not only due to the Corded Ware expansion, but also to a long succession of later migrations from Russia, the last of which took place from the 5th to the 1th century CE.

The Germanic branch of Indo-European languages probably evolved from a merger of Corded-Ware R1a (Proto-Slavic language) and the later arrival of Italo-Celtic R1b from Central Europe. This is supported by the fact that Germanic people are hybrid R1a-R1b, that these two haplogroups came via separate routes at different times, and also on the linguistics of Proto-Germanic language, which shares similarities with Italic, Celtic and Slavic languages. The Corded Ware R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 aborigines to create the Nordic Bronze Age (1800-500 BCE). R1b presumably reached Scandinavia later as a northward migration from the contemporary Hallstatt culture (1200-500 BCE). The first genuine Germanic tongue has been estimated by linguists to have come into existence around (or after) 500 BCE. This would confirm that it emerged as a blend of Hallstatt Proto-Celtic and the Corded-Ware Proto-Slavic. The uniqueness of some of the Germanic vocabulary points at borrowing from native pre-Indo-European languages. Celtic language itself is known to have borrowed from Afro-Asiatic languages spoken by Near-Eastern immigrants to Central Europe. The fact that present-day Scandinavia is composed of roughly 40% of I1, 20% of R1a and 40% of R1b reinforces the idea that Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age.
Source

Germans are of a hybrid culture. The original I1 inhabitants of Germany were mostly slaughtered by the invading IE tribes!

I1 is identified by at least 15 unique mutations, which indicates that this lineage has been isolated for a long period of time, or experienced a serious population bottleneck. Although the first mutation splitting I1 away from I2 may have arisen as long as 20,000 years ago, people belonging to this haplogroup all descend from a single man who lived less than 5,000 years ago. This corresponds to the arrival of the Indo-European, suggesting that a high percentage of the indigenous I1 men could possibly have been killed by the new immigrants.
Source