Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

[Skerdilaid]

It is hair-splitting. Southern Albania was only under Slavic rule for many centuries. Epirus overall was teeming with Slavs, just as it teems with Slavic toponyms to this day. The Albanian language has been influenced extensively by Slavic. A lot of our vocabulary regarding agriculture, the trades, the sea, etc. is Slavic in origin, which is why historians think that Albanians learned and took a lot of these from the Slavs. That in itself is a massive cultural influence, too. That's true whether we speak of Ghegs or Tosks. Then you just have to look at the Albanian Medieval Ages.

I2a's diversity is low exactly because it originated outside of the Balkans and came down to the Balkans with the Slavs, there's the bottleneck. Those same Slavs then brought it down to South Albania. You could hold on to your fantasy that the reason Tosks have a high percentage of it is because of a bottleneck, but there'd be Slav Y-DNA foaming out of that bottleneck all the same. But that's disregarding history. Not to mention the fact that higher I2a in Tosks also coincides with higher R1a.

Influence is certainly there but it's mostly borrowings through interaction, not imposition which one would expect to see in such scenario. Your statement was baseless, simple as that, no evidence whatsoever. Once we get a descent database on our project from Tosks we will be able to tell exactly when their specific subclades expanded and how diverse they are, and I will be able to demonstrate it to you exactly how it unfolded - and I again am quite confident that I am right, that they entered early on, perhaps during first Bulgarian empire if not in their initial invasion, and expanded during early middle ages when Tosk tribes could be found far and wide in today's Greece (though going by few studies majority will most likely end up being under Z17855 with few Y4460 'Din S' and S17250 'Din N').

[Skerdilaid]

categorge are you R1b-BY611? Dema told me

Tha's what I thought too, that he's my cous (I thought I spoke to him via email). Now juding by his behaviour, I guess he isn't, he probably is I2a

[catgeorge]

No, I am repeating if this clade didn't exist yet in Balkan Neolithic, then how can its origin be there? It makes no sense. Are you being dense on purpose?

Dont give me this eupedia fantasy of Maciamo, who wants to Nordicize ancient Greece like a shithead all through MS Paint program.

You are wrong - Lazaridis already has a report on it and here is from a non Greek source

Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization

Published 25 March 2015.DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2015.0339

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1805/20150339

(b) Y chromosomal DNA

We analysed 33 Y-haplogroup defining SNPs located on the non-recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY), using multiplex [38] and singleplex PCR. We successfully generated unambiguous NRY SNP profiles for nine male individuals (STA = 7, LBKT = 2; electronic supplementary material, datasets S3 and S5). Three STA individuals belong to the NRY haplogroup F* (M89) and two specimens can be assigned to the haplogroup G2a2b (S126), and one each to G2a (P15) and I2a1 (P37.2). The two investigated LBKT samples carry haplogroups G2a2b (S126) and I1 (M253). Furthermore, incomplete SNP profiles of eight specimens potentially belong to the same haplogroups—STA: three G2a2b (S126), two G2a (P15) and one I (M170); LBKT: one G2a2b (S126) and one F* (M89).

The discontinuity between hunter–gatherer and farmer ancestry is also visible in our Y chromosome results. Y chromosome study of modern-day Europeans has suggested a post-LGM expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refugium for clade I1, and southeast European refugium for I2a1 based on high divergence time estimates [58]. I2a has indeed been found in Mesolithic and Neolithic Central and North European hunter–gatherers [33,34,40,41], as well as in Neolithic remains of southwestern Europe [44,45]. Haplogroup I2a (and possibly I1) might represent a pre-farming legacy of the NRY variation in Europe, alongside the recently described pre-Neolithic C (M130) haplogroups in Russia and Spain [35,42].

[Scholarios]

You are wrong - Lazaridis already has a report on it and here is from a non Greek source

Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization

Published 25 March 2015.DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2015.0339

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1805/20150339

[]

Mostly irrelevant or tangential to our current topic. You are hopeless on this man, completely hopeless.

[catgeorge]

Mostly irrelevant or tangential to our current topic. You are hopeless on this man, completely hopeless.

Talking about a Laberia type deflection indicating I has never been neolithic. Perhaps you do have Albanian genes.

[Scholarios]

Talking about a Laberia type deflection indicating I has never been neolithic. Perhaps you do have Albanian genes.

That some kind of I clade was present in the Neolithic is irrelevant- that the dominant I in Greece and Albania is in fact I2a1b2 or related Slavic-derived R1a1 is the point. Have you missed the past 30 posts? What is your clade? Maybe I am Albanian, I am E-v13 after all, but I plot with South Italians and Jews, so.

[catgeorge]

That some kind of I clade was present in the Neolithic is irrelevant- that the dominant I in Greece and Albania is in fact I2a1b2 or related Slavic-derived R1a1 is the point. Have you missed the past 30 posts? What is your clade? Maybe I am Albanian, I am E-v13 after all, but I plot with South Italians and Jews, so.

There is no evidence of it whatsoever. It stops at M 423 which is I2a1 no matter how you want to wash it. I2a-Din is probably due to a millenia long morph of I2a1 and R1a1 M56

[Laberia]

Maybe I am missing something, I dont see that study. But I assumed its around 10% with another 10-15% r1a, from other studies I have seen. (about the same as Greece, who also generally resisted Slavicization in the middle ages) For ethnic purists, that is significant.

Haha, this is just perfect. So you assume. Nice.
And no, it's not the same as Greece. I know that this is your intention. Ancient greeks disappeared. You have to understand something. In your country, the story of the land is not the same with the story of the population that live there. The fact that you live in Greece doesn't make you a greek. You personally, is high probabile that you are a cuman.

[Scholarios]

There is no evidence of it whatsoever. It stops at M 423 which is I2a1 no matter how you want to wash it. I2a-Din is probably due to a millenia long morph of I2a1 and R1a1 M56

Here is evidence:

Spoiler!

Look at that- a clade that formed 2200 years ago in Poland and still exists in Poland and Greece both.

Here it is again:

Spoiler!

And where the hell is it in South Italy if it was in Neolithic Greeks? Only in Gargano, where Medieval Croats settled.

[Laberia]

As i explained earlier in this thread it is impossible that S Albania has so much I2a1b, esspecially more then Macedonia, sounds like complete nonsense.
There is no chance that most of S Albania has 30% I2a1b, maybe 10% and thats if at best.

What is the opinion of the experts in this forum about your question, i mean about this 30%?
10%,and why10%?
Dema, and all the others, can you tell me how % of this 104 Tosk Albanians are R1a? Here is the study:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

Ghegs get around 6% I2+r1a combined.

Tosks about 23%

Arbereshe about 30%

(I do not count I1- brought by Normans, Goths, Catalans, etc)


You can interpret that any way your little heart desires.

Because this is the study of what we are discussing.
Thank you Dema.