Poland-Germany border, most interesting thing ever

[War Chef]

Don't be afraid to go off-topic. I'm not some German tard who follows all the rules. They have an obsession with "Ordnung". My style has always been to just wing-it & freestyle as I go. Must be a Slavic thang.

[Peterski]

Can you post pictures of some Polish-Germans

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.

Y-DNA also shows that Lower Silesia was dominated by Slavic R1a:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...08#post4568708



In several Projects of Family Tree DNA I've gathered all samples from people born before WW2 in Silesia.

Most of these men lived in the 19th, 18th, early 20th, but some in the 17th, 15th, one even died in the 12th century.

In total I have found 100 Y-DNA samples from descendants of pre-war inhabitants of Silesia. Here we go:

Sample/kit # - place of origin of most distant ancestor, ancestor's SURNAME (last SNP tested):

I1-M253 haplogroup - 13 samples from Silesia:

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

J2-M172 haplogroup - 5 samples from Silesia:

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

E1b1b haplogroup - 4 samples from Silesia:

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

G2a haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

N1c haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

G2b haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

J1 haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

I2a haplogroup - only 1 sample:

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

T haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Q haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

R1b-M269 haplogroup - only 11 samples from Silesia:

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

===========================
===========================

R1a haplogroup - 54 samples from Silesia:

kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (M512+)
kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

Branch R1a-L664:

kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

Branch R1a-Z280:

kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

Z92:

kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

CTS1211:

kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

YP343:

kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

YP380:

kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

P278.2:

kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #N35951 - Ostrava, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

CTS3402>YP237:

kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

CTS3402>Y33:

kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

S18681:

kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

Branch R1a-M458:

Clade L260:

kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

YP1337:

kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

YP254:

kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

Y2905:

kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

Clade L1029:

kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

Branch R1a-Z93:

kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)
kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

[Peterski]

German language can cross the Oder River, but German DNA cannot.

[War Chef]

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.

That's a lot of ambition. It's even crazier to think that roughly at this same time they were also going west (to the U.S.) in fact there is more German blood in the U.S. than in all of modern Germany.

[Not a Cop]

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.

That's actually interesting that my Grandad(who is 1\2 German) came out exactly 1\2 German, considering that most of his german ancestors were Baltic Germans, who are even futher removed from core Germans, though i guess it has to do with a fact that there were almost no German peasants in Baltic states, only Nobility, Merchants and Burghers.

[Peterski]

That's a lot of ambition. It's even crazier to think that roughly at this same time they were also going west (to the U.S.) in fact there is more German blood in the U.S. than in all of modern Germany.

Stop posting fucking Nazi Propaganda Maps. Here are correct linguistic maps:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...nities.536835/

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threa....536835/page-2

[Peterski]

That's actually interesting that my Grandad came out exactly 1\2 German, considering that most of his german ancestors were Baltic Germans, who are even futher removed from core Germans, though i guess it has to do with a fact that there were almost no German peasants in Baltic states, only Nobility, Merchants and Burghers.

Your grandad's ancestors maybe came to the Baltic region after 1700 AD.

Not all of Baltic Germans have their roots in Livonia back to the 1200s AD.

"Fresh Germans" (fresh immigrants from Germany) indeed have German DNA.

Which is why we say that "the only good German is a non-fresh German". I.e. one with Slavic DNA from centuries of mixing and assimilation (linguistic and cultural Germanization).

[Peterski]

Ethnic groups of East Prussia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-Prussia/page2



Languages of East Prussia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-Prussia/page2

Ethnic statistics per county for areas with a lot of Polish-speaking population:

Sprache / Muttersprache = language
Konfession = religious denomination

1) Kreis Angerburg (Węgorzewo):



2) Kreis Goldap (Gołdap):



3) Kreis Johannisburg (Pisz):



4) Kreis Lötzen (Łuczany / Giżycko):



5) Kreis Lyck (Łek / Ełk):



6) Kreis Mohrungen (Morąg):



7) Kreis Neidenburg (Nibork / Nidzica):



8) Kreis Oletzko (Olecko):



9) Kreis Ortelsburg (Szczytno):



10) Kreis Osterode (Ostróda):



11) Kreis Rastenburg (Rastembork / Kętrzyn):



12) Kreis Rosenberg (Susz):



13) Kreis Sensburg (Ządzbork / Mrągowo):



14) Summary for Pisz, Lötzen, Lyck, Neidenburg, Oletzko, Ortelsburg, Osterode & Sensburg:





No, all of that area was still very Lithuanian at the beginning of the 1800s.

Lithuanians declined in numbers only later, due to Germanization policies.

Percent of Lithuanian-speakers among the population of East Prussia:

Year - % of Lithuanian-speakers in East Prussia:

1820 - 18,52% (estimate)
1825 - 12,13% (census)
1837 - 11,49% (census)
1848 - 10,26% (census)
1871 - 7,65% (census)
1878 - 6,91% (census)
1890 - 6,19% (census)

^^^ It continued to decline after 1890, but I don't have exact data.

If you think that those people were "German by blood" just because they stopped speaking Lithuanian and started speaking German (due to Germanization policies), you are fooling yourself.

[Not a Cop]

Your grandad's ancestors maybe came to the Baltic region after 1700 AD.

Not all of Baltic Germans have their roots in Livonia back to the 1200s AD.

"Fresh Germans" (fresh immigrants from Germany) indeed have German DNA.

Which is why we say that "the only good German is a non-fresh German". I.e. one with Slavic DNA from centuries of mixing and assimilation (linguistic and cultural Germanization).

I've traced most of lines up to XVIII century, a lot of them surnames from very old noble houses like Koskull f.e.

[Peterski]

I've traced most of lines up to XVIII century, a lot of them surnames from very old noble houses like Koskull f.e.

So maybe your line of Baltic Germans was unmixed.

But another 50% Baltic German got no German DNA:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post187024

Here are some Latvian MyOrigin/Geno 2.0 NG results:

interestingly a supposedly 50% Baltic German + 50% Latvian got:
89% Eastern European + 11% Finnish and Siberian (on DNA.LAND they got 100% North Slavic)
(I'm starting to think some Baltic German families actually ended up with lots of Latvian genes mixed in