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[Hamlet]

'IJ = pre-diaspora Jewry.'

Oh IJ was just meant to stand for Israelite Jews not Italkim Jews

[Longbowman]

Oh IJ was just meant to stand for Israelite Jews not Italkim Jews

I didn't think you meant that. I thought you meant haplogroups. Context needed.

[Hamlet]

I didn't think you meant that. I thought you meant haplogroups. Context needed.

Yeah my bad - anyway, I still think what I said is the reason for the main differences between Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

[Longbowman]

Yeah my bad - anyway, I still think what I said is the reason for the main differences between Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

I suspect they split in Europe, not Israel, so I disagree.

[Hamlet]

I suspect they split in Europe, not Israel, so I disagree.

But isn't it known that that isn't the case? Where do you think they split then?

[Longbowman]

But isn't it known that that isn't the case? Where do you think they split then?

Those maps aren't based on much. Some Jews will have moved from NA to Europe but I suspect they split in Europe due to genetic similarities between 'Western' Jews (Italqim, Romaniotes, Sephardim, Ashkenazim, etc), maybe in Greece or Italy.

[Hamlet]

Those maps aren't based on much. Some Jews will have moved from NA to Europe but I suspect they split in Europe due to genetic similarities between 'Western' Jews (Italqim, Romaniotes, Sephardim, Ashkenazim, etc), maybe in Greece or Italy.

But what about the physical differences between the Sephardim & Italkim (who are now to a large degree the descendants of Sephardim) and Ashkenazim? Ashkenazis are much lighter (even though the other two aren't as dark as some think) and also more Armenoid.

Also, about the Romaniotes - do you know where they plot, and whether they're more AJ or SJ?

[Longbowman]

But what about the physical differences between the Sephardim & Italkim (who are now to a large degree the descendants of Sephardim) and Ashkenazim? Ashkenazis are much lighter (even though the other two aren't as dark as some think) and also more Armenoid.

Also, about the Romaniotes - do you know where they plot, and whether they're more AJ or SJ?

They're really not that different. Although purebloods are hard to come by. Romaniotes cluster with the rest of the European Jews.

[Hamlet]

They're really not that different. Although purebloods are hard to come by. Romaniotes cluster with the rest of the European Jews.

Ashkenazim are definitely different looking, usually they're significantly lighter.

Also, I still think AJs and SJs travelled different routes - every diaspora map I've seen shows SJs travelling to Spain through the Magreb, and it's also the most logical path to take (and explains the similarity between pre-Alhambra Decree Berber Jews and Sephardic Jews).

Anyway, I see Syrian Jews as the purest, and with all non-AJ Western Jews as being roughly non-admixed compared to Syrian Jews. I then think Ashkenazim mixed with another population that resulted in their differing features - don't pretend it isn't easy to tell an Ashkenazi apart from a Syrian, Romaniote, Italkic or Sephardic Jew. AJs are not only a lot paler, but also they have a lot more red hair (for example), and while other Jewish communities are still quite red-haired, they don't have anything on AJs - AJs are about as red-haired as Belgians, which if you consider the % of R1b in that region is absolutely nuts.

This PCA plot seems to suggest it's a Circassian-like population, which is interesting given the now seemingly thoroughly debunked Khazarian hypothesis (I think the fact that all non-Western AJs are on a continuum towards Europe, whereas AJs are shifted toward Circassians, is extremely important):



Whatever this population is, I still think there has to be something else lurking among Ashkenazim that makes them look different.

[Coolguy1]

Italian20.43
East_Med13.80
Near_Eastern9.23
Iberian8.71
East_Balkan7.23
North_Caucasian6.86
Armenian5.71
East_Central_Euro5.71
French5.48
North_Sea4.97
Eastern_Euro3.79
Central_Euro3.51
West_Med2.67
Basque0.81
Fennoscandian0.72
Volga-Ural0.22
North_African0.13