The Dopi

[Queen B]

People sometimes have bigger interests like economics.

Εhm~ I don't want to burst your bubble, but the Greek main political parties are not any respectable parties to rely on, especially on economic interests. So, I don't think anyone would vote Pasok,ND or Syriza for the greater good in that part.

Hellenisation happened on the most part. But it wasn't perfect. Assimilation of peoples isn't always full proof. It cant be a 100% success.

We could have talk about Hellenisation after 4-5 generations. Greece had not time to actually make such in 60 years.

[Lioncourt]

You seem to be certain. Have you counted them? You also seem certain that Northern Greece is full of opressed Slavs.

Opressed Slavs in Northern Greece and opressed Greeks in Vardarska, not sure which is more numerous. When and where did Gligorov claim that?

[wvwvw]

Btw here are a few maps that show how Fyrom was called before 1944.





So what’s wrong going back to your original name. As Vardaskas you can claim to be descendants of Ancient Macedonians as much as you like, nobody would care.

But now you have invented a nation, although Macedonians were never a nation. Their nation was Greek.

By demanding being recognized as Macedonia, you effectively hijack the name and history of Macedonia all for yourself. As a STATE you will have exclusivity to all things Macedonian. Greeks wouldn’t even be allowed to call their Greek Macedonian products Macedonian anymore. We wouldn’t be able to export a wine under the name Macedonian for example.

[wvwvw]

Opressed Slavs in Northern Greece and opressed Greeks in Vardarska, not sure which is more numerous. When and where did Gligorov claim that?

[Gligorov] [..] The Greeks say that there are 250,000 Greeks here, while according to the statistics, there are only 100,000. There are supposed to be between 700,000 and 1,000,000 Albanians here. The Serbs say that there are between 250,000 and 300,000 Serbs here.

* The Greeks of Fyrom say

[wvwvw]

Greeks want a good relationship with Bulgarians and Skopjans. If Fyrom changed its name Greece would even allow Fyrom access to sea, and help it anyway it can. That’s what Greek politicians of all parties say here.

As Vardaskans you can continue to emphasize your links to Peonians, Thrcaians Illyrians and Ancient Macedonians as much as you want.

Rep of Vardaska is a good name btw. I like the sound of it. Or at least call it Rep of Vardar Macedonia, but Macedonia alone will never be accepted. Greek politicians have not free hands to do as they wish. They will be lynched if they recognize it as Macedonia, and your nation as Macedonian.

[Laberia]

Where are those imaginary Greeks? Greeks has never lived in Skopje, people there used to be Bulgarians with Serbian and Albanian minority, today Macedonians and Albanians.

There were Greeks in Bitola for example, but in Skopje...what is next, Greeks in Belgrade?

According to the Patriarchane of Istanbul, every orthodox Christian is a greek. For example, even until the indipendence of servia, servs were considered greeks by the Patriarchane. When they talk about greeks, they refer to the "defters" of the Patriarchane.

[Vojnik]

According to the Patriarchane of Istanbul, every orthodox Christian is a greek. For example, even until the indipendence of servia, servs were considered greeks by the Patriarchane. When they talk about greeks, they refer to the "defters" of the Patriarchane.

Yes. Greek was Christian. Then the Bulgarian Exharcate was established, and Bulgarian also became Christian. The Ottoman censuses were not ethnic, but based on membership of a religion.

[wvwvw]

The Sarakatsani

The Sarakatsani are a Greek people with distinctive customs, who cris-crossed the Balkans as nomadic graziers.

The Sarakatsani are said to be descendants of an ancient Greek tribe that always lived in the Agrafa mountains. They refused to submit to the Turks who called them “Kara Katsan” viz “Black Fugitives” that is unsubmissive, recalcitrant.

Whilst the Sarakatsani are now found scattered throughout Greece, Bulgaria and FYROM, [2] there is ample evidence[3] to show that their origins are from the Agrafa Mountain range of Western Central Greece. During Ali Pasha’s rule at the beginning of the 19th Century they were forced to leave their region and they moved northwards as far as the Danube river and the Black sea coast. As nomadic shepherds they moved their flocks freely through the domains of the Ottoman Empire until the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 created new frontiers resulting in many Sarakatsani becoming enclaved in Serbia and Bulgaria. The Sarakatsani were henceforth completely forgotten by the Greek state and they have survived until this day by not having contacts with surrounding populations, by always speaking the Greek language in their homes and amongst themselves and by strict intermarriage. Indeed, their intense Greek national consciousness is remarkable for a people that were deliberately cut off and isolated from the Greek world.

Until the creation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia in 1944-45 on territory that had been till then Southern Serbia, the Sarakatsani continued their nomadic existence with their herds, had no contact whatsoever with the other populations, did not serve in the army, maintained their Greek names and had “Greek descent” on their identity cards. After 1945 the Greek names were slavicised and the “Greek descent” deleted. In 1947 as a result of refusing to comply with the name change six Sarakatsani were charged with spying for Greece, tried behind closed doors and sentenced to long gaol terms. All Sarakatsani living near the Greek border were displaced to the north and prohibited under penalty of prosecution of being found within 70km of the frontier. Their flocks were confiscated without compensation and their surnames forcibly changed to end firstly in – “ev” and then to – “ski”.

In Bulgaria the Sarakatsani lived their traditional lives in conditions of relative freedom until the Communist authorities disbanded their Tselingata and confiscated their herds (approx. 800, 000 sheep) in 1958 forcing them to quit their nomadic existence and to permanently settle in towns and villages. They were compelled to change their surnames by adding – “ov” and religious restrictions were imposed banning Church weddings and Christenings. Children and parents were told not to speak Greek at home and special schools opened to teach them Bulgarian. Bulgarian historians propounded that they were the remnants of Hellenised Thracians although the evidence clearly shows that the Sarakatsani are not native to the Thracian and Macedonian regions! (Today the Sarakatsani are acknowledged as Greek though some Bulgarian theorists speak of them as a separate people). During the 70’s the Sarakatsani were allowed to visit Greece once every 5 years (but not as a family) and after 1989 travel restrictions were lifted

Despite the forced urbanisation in 1958 and all government attempts to dehellenise the Sarakatsani they have stubbornly clung to their beliefs and Greek roots. They are an anthropologist’s delight having retained unadulterated their customs and traditions of the Agrafa for over 200 years and their language contains many ancient Greek elements.

The most famous of the armed Klephts and Armatoli before and during the Greek Revolution were Sarakatsani e.g Katsantonis, Liakatas, Hasiotis, Tsongas. Also irrespective of their present whereabouts the Sarakatsani share common songs and traditions which refer to the Agrafa.

[wvwvw]

Yes. Greek was Christian. Then the Bulgarian Exharcate was established, and Bulgarian also became Christian. The Ottoman censuses were not ethnic, but based on membership of a religion.

Remind me again what Bulgarian has to do with Macedonia, Macedonian nation and Macedonian language? Greek was anyone who had a Greek conscience and self identified as Greek. Now 99% οf Greeks with a Greek conscience also happened to GREEK Orthodox, and before that worshippers of the Greek Pantheon.

[Crn Volk]

Remind me again what Bulgarian has to do with Macedonia, Macedonian nation and Macedonian language? Greek was anyone who had a Greek conscience and self identified as Greek. Now 99% οf Greeks with a Greek conscience also happened to GREEK Orthodox, and before that worshippers of the Greek Pantheon.

1500 years of continued existence.