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wishful thinking....Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic
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There is no Mongoloid admixture in North Indians this proves R1a in India didn't come from Scythian-Turkic
Any R1a in Southeast Asia is certainly from Indian and the prove is that they have south Asian mtDNA to go with it.
Just like Turkish people have Asian admixture, their R1a would have come with East Asian mtDNA.
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I forgot to say, that even your dear scientist Klyosov would laughing for such claim that Z280 (which include Balto-Slavic) is Turkic. He considers R1a Z280 as the purest IE
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Say that to Dr. David Frawley
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R1 come from Altai, and R1a Z93 from Andronovo culture, which wasn't in India.
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" More recent studies have been able to type for specific mtDNA lineages. For example, a 2004 study studied the HV1 sequence obtained from a male "Scytho-Siberian" at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic. It belonged to the N1a maternal lineage, a geographically "west Eurasian lineage."[130] Another study by the same team, again from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic, were phenotypically males "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of "East Eurasian" populations.[131] "
Pazyryk culture ( R1a, N1b )
" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "
Anayino culture
Sculptural reconstruction of men Lugovskyi burial
Ananyino culture. Gypsum. MMGerasimov work.
" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."
MALE : R1a Central Asian Mongoloid
FEMALE: H1a Caucasian female
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That is a fair point about the relocation and I have heard it before. But allow me to elaborate further as to why this U106 is not from them....at least not all of it. Stears attempted the same argument in the Ugric-finno Lingua Franca thread after he was caught trimming his map.It's possible that basal U106 was found in Kazakhstan, but are you sure it isn't from Volga Germans that were deported to Kazakhstan by Soviets ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_of_Kazakhstan
I think R1b U106 among Langobards not suprise
Firstly, this assumes all Germans deported to this area were U106. There is no way that this is possible or even probable that they were all vastly U106.
Second, U106 is over 10% of the dna in the area of Kazakhstan and surrounding, diminishing in the West direction heading into Europe until it explodes again. That is a lot of the DNA, far more people than were transplanted there by the Soviets.
Finally, as we know the origins of R1b as steppe in nature, downstream such as L10 show us the power of the "founder effect" in that of course we would find less DNA in the area or origin (especially if the mutation formed in nomadic peoples) and more in the areas they have settled or after an explosive population growth due to a bottle neck.
These points all must be addressed and surplanted by the transplanted Germans theory, which it cannot do as the facts do not follow. Germans were also transplanted to other areas after World War 2, but we don't see nearly as large of a concentration of U106 in these areas. Did the Germans just randomly lack the U106 mutation? I think the answer is obvious.
I look forward to your reply.
Last edited by Turul Karom; 02-22-2018 at 02:10 PM.
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Good arguments, I nothing to add, your assumption not impossible
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Wrong assumptions. European DNA from Russians and Germans already existed long before the Soviets. An estimated 100,000-200,000 Russians and Germans enslaved to Kazakhstan.
Kazakh Khanate slave trade on Russian settlement
During the 18th century, raids by Kazakhs on Russia's territory of Orenburg were common; the Kazakhs captured many Russians and sold them as slaves in the Central Asian market. The Volga Germans were also victims of Kazakh raids; they were ethnic Germans living along the River Volga in the region of southeastern European Russia around Saratov.
In 1717, 3,000 Russian slaves, men, women, and children, were sold in Khiva by Kazakh and Kyrgyz tribesmen.[15]
In 1722, they stole cattle, robbed from Russian villages and people trapped in captivity and sold in the slave markets of Central Asia (in 1722 in Bukhara were over 5,000 Russian prisoners). In the middle of the 17th century, 500 Russians were annually sold to Khiva by Kazakhs.
In 1730, the Kazakhs' frequent raids into Russian lands were a constant irritant and resulted in the enslavement of many of the Tsar's subjects, who were sold on the Kazakh steppe.[16]
In 1736, urged on by Kirilov, the Kazakhs of the Lesser and Middle Hordes launched raids into Bashkir lands, killing or capturing many Bashkirs in the Siberian and Nogay districts.[17]
In 1743, an order was given by the senate in response to the failure to defend against the Kazakh attack on a Russian settlement, which resulted in 14 Russians killed, 24 wounded. In addition 96 Cossacks were captured by Kazakhs.[18]
In 1755 Nepliev tried to enlist Kazakh support by ending the reprisal raids and promising that the Kazakhs could keep the Bashkir women and children,[19] and organized the massacre of 10,000 Bashkirs by the Kazakhs during the Bashkir rising.[20]
In the period between 1764 and 1803, according to data collected by the Orenburg Commission, twenty Russian caravans were attacked and plundered. Kazakh raiders attacked even big caravans which were accompanied by numerous guards.[21]
In spring 1774, the Russians demanded the Khan return 256 Russians captured by a recent Kazakh raid.[22]
In summer 1774, when Russian troops in the Kazan region were suppressing the rebellion led by the Cossack leader Pugachev, the Kazakhs launched more than 240 raids and captured many Russians and herds along the border of Orenburg.[22]
Darrel P. Kaiser wrote, "Kazakh-Kirghiz tribesmen kidnapped 1573 German settlers in Russia. In 1774 alone and only half were successfully ransomed. The rest were killed or enslaved. "[23]
Caesarfeld, founded in 1774, was attacked by Kazakh or Kirghiz tribesmen and destroyed. The Catholic village of Chaisol was destroyed in 1774. The second attack on the Karaman in the colony of Mariental took place in August 1774. All the livestock and the people and property were stolen and carried across the Ural River into the Russian steppe. The total number of captives taken away from Mariental was about 300, of whom very few came back. Those captives that survived (mostly women and children) were eventually sold by the Kirghiz into the harems of wealthy Muslims in areas under the control of Turkey.[24]
In October 24, 1774, the Kazakh or Kirghiz attacked the colonies of Seelmann, Leitsinger, Keller, and Holzel, and carried away 317 persons into slavery.[24]
In 1776, the colony of the Mariental was attacked and its inhabitants were enslaved. One story tells that someone (probably Pastor Werboner) had his tongue cut out and that hundreds of people were beheaded.[24]
In August 16, 1785 was the last attack on the colonies by the Kazakh-Kyrgyz; a woman, a child and four elders were killed and 130 people taken as prisoners during the attack. Government forces quickly caught the attackers while the latter were moving the prisoners. In the battle, 70 Kazakhs and Kyrgyz were killed and all the prisoners were freed.[24]
In 1799, the biggest Russian caravan which was plundered at that time lost goods worth 295,000 rubles.[24]
By 1830, the Russian government estimated that two hundred Russians were kidnapped and sold into slavery in Khiva every year.[25]
Abolition of slavery
" The Russian administration liberated the slaves of the Kazakhs in 1859.[27] However, isolated abductions of Russians or Ukrainians by Kazakhs for the slave markets of Central Asia continued until the Tsars' conquest of Khiva and Bukhara in the 1860s.[28] At major markets in Bukhara, Samarkand, Karakul, Karshi and Charju, slaves consisted mainly of Iranians and Russians, and some Kalmuks; they were brought there by Turkmen, Kazakh and Kyrgyz.[29] A notorious slave market for captured Russian and Persian slaves was centered in the Khanate of Khiva from the 17th to the 19th century.[30] During the first half of the 19th century alone, some one million Persians, as well as an unknown number of Russians, were enslaved and transported to Central Asian khanates.[31][32] When Russian troops took Khiva in 1873 there were 29,300 Persian slaves, captured by Turkoman raiders.[citation needed] According of Josef Wolff (Report of 1843–1845) the population of the Khanate of Bukhara was 1,200,000, of whom 200,000 were Persian slaves.[33] "
Last edited by ButlerKing; 02-22-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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Not exatly. This is the problem when people don't read history.Good arguments, I nothing to add, your assumption not impossible
Of course I don't know if U106 in Kazakhstan came from Germans but it's most likely from the Baskhirs who have R1b, since there was 30,000 of them enslaved to Kazakhstan. Point is there was over 100,000-200,000+ Europeans already existed in Central Asia and Kazakhstan long before Soviet control of central Asia. There is also European mtDNA in a portion of Kazakhs western Eurasian mtDNA.
Last edited by ButlerKing; 02-22-2018 at 02:48 PM.
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