Scytho-Turkic Z93 branch Z2125 vs. Indo-Aryan migration theory

[Yaglakar]

Proto-Turkic expansion:




and if one goes back far enough, proto-Mongols and proto-Turks come from the same root.

[Proto-Shaman]

i dont know about that.

here, this introduction thread about Alochen Huns of India as i said yesterday.

here, this might interest you.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...rth-West-India

I knew of them. The rulers of these Alchon Huns looked very much like modern Oghuz and Karluk speakers, in particular Uyghurs, Turkmens, Uzbeks, Azerbaijanis and Anatolian Turks. Did they have any genetic impact in South Asia at all?

[Ryuk]

Real Proto turkic expansion maps

[Proto-Shaman]

Real Proto-Turks


(all good things come threes)

[Proto-Shaman]

Proto-Turkic expansion:




and if one goes back far enough, proto-Mongols and proto-Turks come from the same root.

These maps reflect the original Scythian ethnogenesis. But Afanasievo and Okunevo are some 500 years older than originally thought.

[Chelubey]

Ryuk is banned?
OK.
For those who are interested in Turkic paleogenetics - the studies of the Kazakh genetics.
https://elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=27277833
This is a study for a narrow circle of persons .To get the full version of the article, complicated registration is required.
It has very valuable information.
Preview :

This article describes the study of ethnogenesis of the Turkic peoples according to the methods of population genetics. The author identifies three approaches to research: 1. The study of autosomal markers; 2. A study of polymorphism of Y-chromosome among modern populations; 3. Investigation of polymorphism of Y-chromosome among ancient populations. The article describes the results of genetic studies of such ancient peoples as the Hunnu, Donghu, Scythians, the population of Zhou realm (China), representatives of the Yamnaya, Andronovo, Karasuk, Taghar and other archaeological cultures. Interesting data on the pit culture coincides with the modern populations of the Burzyan and Naiman-Baganaly. Data on the Scythians, the Andronovo culture matches with modern tribes of the Kipchaks, Tabyn, Elan, and part of the Karachais. Data on the Karasuk culture matches with some of the Polish-Lithuanian Tatar families and modern Kyrgyz tribes of On and Sol Kanat (left and right wings). This article presents data on the testing of autosomal markers, namely the timing of the beginning of the genetic admixture of different populations, which marked the beginning of the population under study. The author presents the dates of “genetic admixture” of such peoples as the Turks, Balkars, Chuvashes, Iranian Azerbaijanis, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Uighurs, Uzbeks, Kyrgyzes, Turkmens, Kumyks, Nogais. He offers the examples of how the ethno-genetic studies are used in scientific purposes, more precisely in the process of nation building while writing the “national histories” of various nations. The author describes the situation of use of genetic data in the national construction of the Jews, Bashkirs, Hungarians, Russians. The article describes the major haplogroups occurring among various Turkic families: 1. Bashkir tribes: Kipchaks, Tabyn, Gaina, Kangls, Burzyan; 2. Kazakh tribes: Qara Kipchaks, Bultyn-Kipchaks, Argyn, Konyrat (Kungirats), Alshyn, Uysun, Naimans, Tabyn, Kerei, Shanyshkyly (Katagan); 3. Kyrgyz tribes relating to subdivisions of the On Kanat, Sol kanat, Ichkilik.

[Chelubey]

To Yaglakar.
Here written:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD...80%D0%BE%D0%B2

Mogul layer:
The last major ethnic component that became part of the present-day Uyghur ethnos were the Moguls (Turkic speaking Mongols), who came by several waves at the 13th century, consisting of such tribes as Barlas, Douglat, Nyugate, Arlat, Churas, Bayrin and others. [1] The last large wave of Moguls came with Chagataid Said Khan at the beginning of the 16th century. The Moguls originally speaking Mongolian languages ​​were gradually assimilated by local Turks, switched to the local Turkic language called Chagatai, adopted Islam (XIV century. Tugluk Timur-khan), began to settle.

I heard that the Uygurs have a legend that they have semi-Turkic, semi-Mongolian origin.
How really big is the Mongolic component of ethnogenesis of present-day Uigurs? Or it is an exaggeration?

[Yaglakar]

To Yaglakar.
Here written:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD...80%D0%BE%D0%B2

I heard that the Uygurs have a legend that they have semi-Turkic, semi-Mongolian origin.
How really big is the Mongolic component of ethnogenesis of present-day Uigurs? Or it is an exaggeration?

According to contemporary Haidar Dughlat, there were 30,000 Moghuls left in 1500s. He says that most blended with the Muslim population. And taking into account that the whole population of Uighurs and Kashgarians was likely low, a few hundred thousand perhaps, the genetic impact was likely large. Moghuls are not considered Mongols per say in Uighur folk memory, even though they are at least initially. The fact that they converted to Islam en mass and gradually switched to Türki was enough to perceive them as their own. Even though at the time large portions of the country were still non-Muslim. All other Mongols were usually referred to as Qalmaqs irrespective of whether they were Oirats or Kalkha Mongols.

[Fiko0]

Apart from DNA arguments it is quite difficult to say who is the ancestor of the Turks and the Persians. Many sources show that the Scythians spoke Persian, but their habitat was spread over large areas, including West Asia but also Central Asia. Nobody knows what language they spoke in northern Scythia, for example.

I think we can get a lot out of their war style. In particular the horseback archery culture.

Xiongu appeared on stage around 300 years later. Their way of warfare was identical. In particular their horse archers..

The Europeans were amazed by the Huns when they rushed in with horses. The Europeans didn't stand a chance against the fast mounted archers..

This was a typical style of Turkic warfare. Horseback archers were used as symbols on various flags and coins of Turks.

I'm not sure if we can get a relationship out of this. Also ancient Persians used the mounted archery culture but not much as the Turks did.

Scythian:


Phartian:



Unfortunately I couldn't find any artifacts from Xiongnu with horseback archery on it but in many Chinese historical sources we can conclude that the same warfare culture also prevailed among the Xiongnu people.

[Rico33]

But why is R haplogroup so frequent amongst asiatic looking amerindians?