So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Raizen]

There is even a 70% Steppe sample among the Landschaft something samples.

I still am curious where the low Steppe samples(30-35%) come from, we need dating to properly theorize though.

he is corded ware and r1b.

[Raizen]

The Constance and St Gallen samples here look a lot more realistic for authentic Celts or Proto-Celts, especially coupled with the Lech EBA/MBA samples. The picture is becoming clearer.

the constance and st gallen samples are of early bronze age samples of mixed bb and eef stock, not celts.

[J. Ketch]

the constance and st gallen samples are of early bronze age samples of mixed bb and eef stock, not celts.

Who exactly do you think the Celts of Switzerland were descended from?

[Gota_type_]

I believe the "pre-Celtic" label(the "proto-Celtic" one is erroneous, you can't have "proto-Cetls" and Celts in the same place at the same time, that's contradictory to the meaning of a "proto-language") is given to Lusitanians and some others to indicate that they are IE but came before Celts.

I have seen images of prerroman people in Spain and sometimes they write proto-celtic and other pre-celtic. In the first case we could think about the core of "celtic" that later expanded to the surrounded areas. In the 2º case we would be talking about people living there previously to the celts and adapting to the culture. There are some theories that say that celts came from the West.

[sailormoon]

Anatolia_Barcin_N is the early Neolithic sample from Barcin, Turkey (Pinhasi et al. 2015), which also has the high level of WHG ancestry. Probably these Swiss Iron Age samples are a mixture of this Anatolian group from Turkey and Yamnaya herders from southern Russia.

Felix at GGT is in the process of uploading the genomes from the recent Pinhasi et al. paper. The file for the early Neolithic sample from Barcin, Turkey, is basically ready. I analyzed it with my K8 model and got these results (click on the image to enlarge).

I also ran an Identical-by-State (IBS) affinity test using the Human Origins dataset and around 1800 SNPs. The results broadly back up the K8 analysis, with southern Europeans topping the list.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/0...nome-from.html

[Sheva]

Then finally they might let go off their fantasy of being descending from Spaniards?

[Raizen]

Who exactly do you think the Celts of Switzerland were descended from?

clearly they weren't descended from the aforementioned populations.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Other Ancient Swiss samples from Furtwaengler et al 2020. These are not as northern shifted.


Scaled

Alsace:SX32,0.135449,0.122879,0.053174,0.0646,0.024312,0.025937,0.00799,0.010615,-0.005931,-0.006743,-0.004872,-0.002248,-0.007284,-0.018029,0.020494,0.023468,0.019297,-0.009248,0.003394,0.016508,0.006489,0.002102,-0.005053,-0.004458,0.00467
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.121791,0.126941,0.046763,0.032623,0.05201,0.009761,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.013294,0.016766,0.005196,0.007793,-0.018731,-0.022432,0.018322,0.028109,0.008605,-0.002407,-0.004148,0.002876,-0.003868,0.005317,-0.005176,-0.003374,-0.001916
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.121791,0.122879,0.053174,0.050388,0.031083,0.018686,-0.000235,0.003,0.002863,-0.001093,-0.00341,0.004796,-0.008325,-0.021744,0.020901,0.019888,0.008345,-0.004434,0.00176,0.012756,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.012448,0.006386,-0.002155
Constance:MX252,0.124067,0.137096,0.05242,0.039729,0.03693,0.009203,-0.00893,0.000692,0.016157,0.013485,0.001299,0.001948,-0.010406,-0.013487,0.017236,0.011005,-0.007302,0.003801,0.004399,0.003752,0.010482,-0.003215,-0.011955,0.001084,-0.005269
Constance:MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Constance:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.046009,0.041344,0.040623,0.003068,-0.00329,0.001615,0.010022,0.014397,-0.006658,0.001499,-0.007582,-0.018304,0.020494,-0.001724,-0.000522,-0.001774,0.015964,-0.002501,-0.001747,-0.001237,-0.00037,-0.007591,0.000359
Constance:MX265,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023
Constance:MX275,0.126344,0.128972,0.045632,0.040052,0.03139,0.005578,-0.00047,0.002308,0.018407,0.021504,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.026313,-0.014726,0.021444,0.008618,-0.000261,0.006841,0.006411,-0.003627,0.001123,0.012984,0.001356,-0.015183,0.002754
Constance:MX279,0.135449,0.138112,0.053928,0.052649,0.039392,0.013945,-0.002115,-0.004846,0.005931,0.015308,-0.010555,0.008243,-0.006541,-0.014175,0.013165,0.015778,0.011995,0.002154,-0.003017,-0.001,0.002246,0.003462,-0.012571,0.006145,-0.0097
Constance:MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Constance:MX286,0.12862,0.13405,0.049026,0.030685,0.041854,0.005857,-0.00235,0.001846,0.012885,0.020046,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.017839,-0.015551,0.012351,0.01432,0.011083,0.005574,-0.00352,0.001376,0.007362,0.018053,0.007641,-0.011809,-0.000239
Constance:MX288,0.132035,0.132019,0.061094,0.040698,0.048932,0.006972,0.008695,0.00923,0.010635,0.015672,-0.006333,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007844,0.017508,0.01127,0.005737,-0.0019,0.000503,0.006003,0.015597,0.005193,-0.00037,-0.003856,0.000838
St_Gallen:SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479

Unscaled

Alsace:SX32,0.0119,0.0121,0.0141,0.02,0.0079,0.0093,0.0034,0.0046,-0.0029,-0.0037,-0.003,-0.0015,-0.0049,-0.0131,0.0151,0.0177,0.0148,-0.0073,0.0027,0.0132,0.0052,0.0017,-0.0041,-0.0037,0.0039
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.0107,0.0125,0.0124,0.0101,0.0169,0.0035,-0.0023,-0.001,0.0065,0.0092,0.0032,0.0052,-0.0126,-0.0163,0.0135,0.0212,0.0066,-0.0019,-0.0033,0.0023,-0.0031,0.0043,-0.0042,-0.0028,-0.0016
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.0107,0.0121,0.0141,0.0156,0.0101,0.0067,-0.0001,0.0013,0.0014,-0.0006,-0.0021,0.0032,-0.0056,-0.0158,0.0154,0.015,0.0064,-0.0035,0.0014,0.0102,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0101,0.0053,-0.0018
Constance:MX252,0.0109,0.0135,0.0139,0.0123,0.012,0.0033,-0.0038,0.0003,0.0079,0.0074,0.0008,0.0013,-0.007,-0.0098,0.0127,0.0083,-0.0056,0.003,0.0035,0.003,0.0084,-0.0026,-0.0097,0.0009,-0.0044
Constance:MX254_2,0.0115,0.0134,0.0147,0.0077,0.0136,0.0009,0.002,0.0027,0.0087,0.0136,-0.0027,0.005,-0.0111,-0.0104,0.0023,0.0137,0.0111,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0034,0.009,0.0012,-0.0087,0.0011
Constance:MX257,0.0106,0.0128,0.0122,0.0128,0.0132,0.0011,-0.0014,0.0007,0.0049,0.0079,-0.0041,0.001,-0.0051,-0.0133,0.0151,-0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0014,0.0127,-0.002,-0.0014,-0.001,-0.0003,-0.0063,0.0003
Constance:MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Constance:MX275,0.0111,0.0127,0.0121,0.0124,0.0102,0.002,-0.0002,0.001,0.009,0.0118,-0.0022,0.0053,-0.0177,-0.0107,0.0158,0.0065,-0.0002,0.0054,0.0051,-0.0029,0.0009,0.0105,0.0011,-0.0126,0.0023
Constance:MX279,0.0119,0.0136,0.0143,0.0163,0.0128,0.005,-0.0009,-0.0021,0.0029,0.0084,-0.0065,0.0055,-0.0044,-0.0103,0.0097,0.0119,0.0092,0.0017,-0.0024,-0.0008,0.0018,0.0028,-0.0102,0.0051,-0.0081
Constance:MX283,0.0111,0.0135,0.0152,0.0073,0.0165,-0.0011,0.0005,0.0013,0.0098,0.0193,-0.0034,0.0064,-0.01,-0.0066,-0.0006,0.0169,0.0128,0.0001,0.0032,-0.0019,-0.0012,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0085,0.0012
Constance:MX286,0.0113,0.0132,0.013,0.0095,0.0136,0.0021,-0.001,0.0008,0.0063,0.011,-0.0035,0.0027,-0.012,-0.0113,0.0091,0.0108,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0028,0.0011,0.0059,0.0146,0.0062,-0.0098,-0.0002
Constance:MX288,0.0116,0.013,0.0162,0.0126,0.0159,0.0025,0.0037,0.004,0.0052,0.0086,-0.0039,0.0026,-0.0088,-0.0057,0.0129,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0048,0.0125,0.0042,-0.0003,-0.0032,0.0007
St_Gallen:SX20,0.0114,0.0145,0.0148,0.0038,0.0179,0.0033,0.0005,0.0008,0.0068,0.0152,-0.0024,0.0084,-0.0132,-0.0056,0.0039,-0.0067,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0008,-0.0068,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0052,-0.004

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

The one from St. Gallen (Eastern Switzerland Germanic Canton) caught my attention as it is quite close to a modern Basque\Iberian.

Target: St_Gallen:SX20
Distance: 2.4222% / 0.02422226
76.0	Basque
12.2	Balto_Slavic_North
8.4	Greek_Albanian
3.4	Northwest_European

Distance to:	St_Gallen:SX20
0.03170147	Basque
0.03749692	Belgian_French
0.04818528	Iberian
0.06029530	Northwest_European
0.06161228	North_Sea_Germanic
0.06551486	Balkan
0.06631236	Central_European
0.07260614	Scando_Germanic
0.07360623	Greek_Albanian
0.08978597	Polish_Ukrainian
0.10511355	Sicilian_Maltese
0.11101468	Balto_Slavic_South
0.11142811	Balto_Slavic_North
0.13360026	Finnic
0.13925607	European_Jewish
0.15240539	West_Turkish
0.16469766	Circassian
0.17427253	Levant
0.17453272	Azeri
0.17547694	Armenian_Assyrian
0.18694591	Abkhasian_Georgian
0.19241452	Iranian
0.19742813	Tajik
0.21328751	Udmurt
0.21576389	Northeast_African

[brennus dux gallorum]

all IndoEuropeans were "northern European"

The only sure is that Celts as a linguocultural group came from the same subgroup with the (genetically equally northern) Italics, instead of coming from the subgroup of Germanics/Balto-slavs