So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Peterski]

Eurogenes K13, Dodecad K12b and MichalK25 results for France Bronze and Iron:

Attachment 97883

Attachment 97882

Attachment 97881

[Roy]

i doubt they even spoke IE. i bet they spoke something related to Rhaetian. most of western europe didn't spoke ie at this time (prob. even britain, with pictish). if they are early Iron Age they could very well be hallstatt culture and thus proto-celtic. i believe proto-italo-celtic can be explained by a later wave of steppe ancestry coming from corded ware proto-unetice (unetice is predecessor of urnfield, which is predecessor of hallstatt). there is a unetice sample in G25, take a look at it

Good explanation. People forget about non-Indo-European languages still being prevalent or at least common in that period.

[Roy]

Remarkably, we identified several female individuals without any detectable steppe-related ancestry up to 1000 years after this ancestry arrives in the region, with the most recent woman without such ancestry dating to 2213–2031 calBCE. This suggests a high level of genetic structure in this region at the beginning of the Bronze Age with potential parallel societies living in close proximity to each other.

This Swiss has a very non-Steppe phenotype I suppose. And he is actually quite typical Swiss German I believe. Neolithic farmer stronk.

[SharpFork]

This Swiss has a very non-Steppe phenotype I suppose. And he is actually quite typical Swiss German I believe. Neolithic farmer stronk.

There is no Steppe or ENF look, we have good reason to believe that phenotype changed during the bronze age, outside the fact it can always change.

[Roy]

There is no Steppe or ENF look, we have good reason to believe that phenotype changed during the bronze age, outside the fact it can always change.

Just theoritising. I did not mean that those Neolithic farmers were identical. Either way he would be atypical in Denmark for instance.

[SharpFork]

Any news?

[Peterski]

Any news?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-Eurogenes-K15

[Rocinante]

Creoda's model:

Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 1.7323% / 0.01732257
60.0	Celtic
13.0	ImperialRoman
12.4	Mozabite
10.0	Italic
2.8	Germanic
1.8	Iberia_Central_BA

Also reposting his model without the multiple spaces because it wasn't working:

ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.1069937,0.1486057,-0.0248897,-0.0551253,0.0057443,-0.016083,-0.0018017,-0.003769,0.0008863,0.0154293,0.007091,0.0059443,-0.008325,0.000642,-0.0068313,-0.0010607,0.008388,-0.001098,0.004483,0.0007087,-0.001539,0.002267,0.0031223,0.0018077,0.0015967
Celtic:SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.003897,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0.026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.003477,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.04924,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.009292,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.043746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.047894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.006496,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57,0.129758,0.142174,0.050911,0.039406,0.044316,0.007251,-0.004935,0.008538,0.028429,0.024237,0.007957,0.007194,-0.008622,-0.012248,-0.000407,0.004906,-0.000652,0.001014,-0.003017,0.000375,0.012852,0.009645,-0.009983,0.005784,-0.004071
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479
Celtic:Constance_MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Celtic:Constance_MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA,0.1297585,0.133542,0.0630732,0.0527298,0.0351605,0.0193132,0.0061102,0.0030575,0.001892,-0.0027338,-0.0060082,0.0064818,-0.0180252,-0.0164115,0.024226,0.0058672,-0.0143422,0.0036108,0.0032995,0.0005313,0.0056462,0.0044822,-0.0003393,0.0042172,0.0041315
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:England_MBA,0.1270132,0.1290916,0.0630678,0.059755,0.0341783,0.019916,0.0014929,0.0049274,0.0045958,-0.0013935,-0.0047379,0.0039671,-0.0111495,-0.0156566,0.0246771,0.0091564,-0.0059516,0.0030703,0.0009834,0.0039871,0.0046975,0.0047133,-0.0006381,0.0058335,-0.0012045
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Germanic:England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.071383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
Germanic:ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-5,0.126344,0.123895,0.076555,0.062016,0.03139,0.018128,0.007755,0.007615,0.009204,-0.007472,0.001624,0.007493,-0.009514,-0.018992,0.025651,0.02254,0.01356,0.004814,0.000377,0.002876,0.004742,0.005935,0.002095,0.012652,-0.00467
Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594
Iberia_Central_BA,0.1239044,0.1505886,0.059639,0.0003691,0.0686281,-0.0074901,-0.0052371,-0.0001319,0.0395609,0.0550354,-0.0029926,0.01291,-0.0243167,-0.019621,0.0066116,0.0103233,0.0156089,-0.0004163,-0.0021549,0.0007146,0.0115154,-0.0001766,-0.0088561,-0.020261,0.0028397

Target: A_scaled
Distance: 1.8736% / 0.01873582
43.6 Celtic
24.2 ImperialRoman
11.4 Germanic
11.4 Mozabite
9.4 Iberia_Central_BA

[SharpFork]

So what about the French G25 stuff?

[Peterski]

Top 3 closest modern populations to each Iron Age and Bronze Age French sample in my opinion:

(but let's wait for official Global25 data)

RIX4
DE_Saarland
FR_Lower-Normandy
FR_Ile-de-France

RIX2
DE_Rheinland-Pfalz
FR_Ile-de-France
FR_Pays-de-la-Loire

RIX15
FR_Nord
FR_Lorraine
FR_Auvergne

QUIN58
ES_Valencia
ES_Aragon
ES_Galicia

QUIN234
ES_Cantabria
ES_Castilla-Leon-Burgos
ES_Castilla-Leon-Soria

PSS4170
ES_Valencia
ES_Cataluna-Terres-de-l'Ebre
FR_Pyrenees-Orientales

PIR3116B
FR_Picardy
GB_North-East-England
IRL_Ulster

PIR3037AB
ES_Valencia-Castellon
ES_Baleares
ES_Cataluna

PEY53
FR_Bretagne
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Picardy

PEI2
ES_La-Rioja
ES_Castilla-Leon-Soria
ES_Cantabria

PECH5
ES_Cataluna-Girona
ES_Galicia
FR_Picardy

OBE3626-1
IRL_Leinster
IRL_Munster
IRL_Connacht

NOR4
ITA_Veneto-Verona
ITA_Aosta
PRT_Portugal-Lisboa

NOR3-6
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Lower-Normandy
FR_Picardy

NOR3-15
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Upper-Normandy
FR_Nord

NOR2B6
FR_Pays-de-la-Loire
PRT_Portugal-Lisboa
FR_Auvergne

NIED
ES_Baleares-Mallorca
ES_Cataluna-Lleida
ES_Cataluna-Girona

Jeb8
DE_Rheinland-Pfalz
ITA_Aosta
AT_Tyrol

EUG11
ES_Cataluna-Tarragona
FR_Pyrenees-Orientales
ES_Cataluna-Terres-de-l'Ebre

ERS88
ITA_Lombardy-Bergamo
ITA_Tuscany-Florence
ITA_Lombardy-Brescia

ERS86
ES_Cataluna-Tarragona
FR_Languedoc
CH_Romandy

ERS1164
DE_Saarland
GB_Scotland-Lanarkshire
CH_Romandy

COL153i
ES_Cataluna-Terres-de-l'Ebre
FR_Centre-Val-de-Loire
ITA_Friuli-Udine

COL153A
AT_Tyrol
DE_Saarland
ITA_Friuli-Sappada

COL11
IRL_Galway
GB_Scotland-Highland
(...)

BIS385
FR_Hauts-de-France
DE_Rheinpfalz
BE_Wallonia

BIS130
FR_Picardy
FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
FR_Bretagne

BFM265
FR_Picardy
FR_Bretagne-Rennes
FR_Pas-de-Calais

BES1248
FR_Upper-Normandy
GB_Lancashire
GB_Cumbria

ATT26
DE_Rheinpfalz
DE_Baden-Wurttemberg
(...)