Dodecad k12b West, Central & South Asian results Vol. 2

[Bender1999]

No, she was a woman so no YDNA there ofc. And she was 45-50% East Eurasian, Leto posted her K12b. For now she is the best proxy for the EE in modern day Anatolian Turks since she actually was found in Anatolia during the early Ottoman era.

Then my mistake. The best proxy for the early Turks in Anatolia are Afghan Turkmens. There were different tribes and groups in Turkey, not every Turkmens in Central Asia are mixed, the mixed example would be unmixed around 40% east eurasian. Afghan Turkmens are around 30-40%, but again we don’t have enough samples and those which we have don’t really show a clear line about early Turkics. I don’t wanna discuss here, there are a lot of other threads about that.

[Leto]

Then my mistake. The best proxy for the early Turks in Anatolia are Afghan Turkmens. There were different tribes and groups in Turkey, not every Turkmens in Central Asia are mixed, the mixed example would be unmixed around 40% east eurasian. Afghan Turkmens are around 30-40%, but again we don’t have enough samples and those which we have don’t really show a clear line about early Turkics. I don’t wanna discuss here, there are a lot of other threads about that.

We don't need to argue, I think everyone agrees with the assumption that if they were ca. 40% EE on average, an average Anatolian Turk should be ca. 25% Oghuz (10% EE).

[Kaspias]

No, she was a woman so no YDNA there ofc. And she was 45-50% East Eurasian, Leto posted her K12b. For now she is the best proxy for the EE in modern day Anatolian Turks since she actually was found in Anatolia during the early Ottoman era.

40% EE one is an outlier since it does not carry South Asian at all, and it's migration route is probably North of the Caspian Sea therefore not a suitable proxy for Anatolian Turks.

The mixed Ottoman sample is probably dated(no radiocarbon applied) to Seljuks and shows the genome of the Turkmens who entered Anatolia were like. Therefore the mixed sample can be useful for proxy. Modern Anatolian Turks model like 50% Greek and 50% that sample when used it.


Nevertheless, I do prefer to use DA89 Gokturk which I believe an Oghuz while determining exact Central Asian amount, and DA89 + Modern Farsi(-Turkic) while determining the Seljuk period.

[Aren]

40% EE one is an outlier since it does not carry South Asian at all, and it's migration route is probably North of the Caspian Sea therefore not a suitable proxy for Anatolian Turks.

The mixed Ottoman sample is probably dated(no radiocarbon applied) to Seljuks and shows the genome of the Turkmens who entered Anatolia were like. Therefore the mixed sample can be useful for proxy. Modern Anatolian Turks model like 50% Greek and 50% that sample when used it.


Nevertheless, I do prefer to use DA89 Gokturk which I believe an Oghuz while determining exact Central Asian amount, and DA89 + Modern Farsi(-Turkic) while determining the Seljuk period.

Outlier according to what? Other early Ottoman Turks, or just according to you? This woman carries the same amount of BMAC and thus also has some minor South Asian like other Turkic samples from the Middle Ages. And like I said she's 45-50% EE, not 40%. There's nothing odd about her results, she looks like she's straight from Central Asia, very similar to the Karluk samples.

Target: TUR_Ottoman:MA2195
Distance: 2.8732% / 0.02873173
40.2 MNG_North_N
32.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
21.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
6.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: KAZ_Karluk
Distance: 2.4929% / 0.02492882
27.6 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
25.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
25.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
21.4 MNG_North_N

The second one is mixed with both Iranians and native Anatolians, not a good proxy at all.

Target: TUR_Ottoman:MA2196
Distance: 3.1378% / 0.03137783
49.2 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195
29.2 Iranian_Zoroastrian
21.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia

[Kaspias]

Outlier according to what? Other early Ottoman Turks, or just according to you? This woman carries the same amount of BMAC and thus also has some minor South Asian like other Turkic samples from the Middle Ages. And like I said she's 45-50% EE, not 40%. There's nothing odd about her results, she looks like she's straight from Central Asia, very similar to the Karluk samples.

Target: TUR_Ottoman:MA2195
Distance: 2.8732% / 0.02873173
40.2 MNG_North_N
32.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
21.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
6.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: KAZ_Karluk
Distance: 2.4929% / 0.02492882
27.6 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
25.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
25.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
21.4 MNG_North_N

The second one is mixed with both Iranians and native Anatolians, not a good proxy at all.

Target: TUR_Ottoman:MA2196
Distance: 3.1378% / 0.03137783
49.2 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195
29.2 Iranian_Zoroastrian
21.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Early Turkic form of Turkey Turks

Distance to:	Late_Anatolia-avg
0.04058326	KAZ_Kipchak:DA179
0.04591923	TUR_Ottoman:MA2196
0.05249538	KAZ_Turk:DA89
0.05961145	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA69
0.06456492	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA101
0.07308923	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA49
0.07392095	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA72
0.07518098	KAZ_Molaly_LBA:I3769
0.07592796	MDA_Cimmerian:cim358
0.07678585	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA98
0.07736340	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA57
0.07800678	KAZ_Tasbas_IA:I3451
0.07931810	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA47
0.07965587	Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IA:IS2
0.07994639	KAZ_Nomad_IA:DA221
0.08052545	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA73
0.08211725	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA56
0.08224606	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA70
0.08299853	TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12294
0.08301937	KAZ_Kangju:DA123
0.08346891	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA58
0.08351131	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA81
0.08351772	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA85
0.08429867	DEU_MA_ACD:AED_1108
0.08432411	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA52

Distance to:	Turkic_Anatolia-avg
0.04100765	KAZ_Turk:DA89
0.04843847	RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142
0.04967384	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA96
0.05234885	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA73
0.05262506	KAZ_Turk:DA228
0.05347000	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA74
0.05685292	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA100
0.05779756	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA104
0.05835075	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA72
0.05903525	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA50
0.06099939	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA385
0.06201685	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA69
0.06252895	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA65
0.06280806	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA52
0.06404769	Scythian_RUS_Urals:MJ42
0.06473595	Saka_Tian_Shan:DA56
0.06538712	Hun_Tian_Shan:DA66
0.06538766	MNG_Sagly_EIA_4:I6232
0.06556677	Saka_Kazakh_steppe:DA10
0.06631477	MNG_Mongun_Taiga_LBA_3:I7033
0.06779834	MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
0.06831003	KAZ_Kipchak:DA179
0.06859981	TUR_Ottoman:MA2195
0.06886862	Saka_Kazakh_steppe:DA14
0.06905025	KAZ_Nomad_MA:DA126

[Kyp]

The second one is mixed with both Iranians and native Anatolians, not a good proxy at all.

Target: TUR_Ottoman:MA2196
Distance: 3.1378% / 0.03137783
49.2 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195
29.2 Iranian_Zoroastrian
21.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Doesn't the 29% Iranian proofs what Kaspias was trying to say? Anyway I believe M2196 is a good (medieval period) proxy escpecially for Azerbaijanis since most of their turkic ancestry is from Anatolian Turks from 15th century.

[Leto]

The Karluks (DA222 and DA230)

Gedrosia 18.88 Pct
Siberian 24.88 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 2.10 Pct
Atlantic_Med 3.41 Pct
North_European 13.24 Pct
South_Asian 2.83 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian -
East_Asian 22.84 Pct
Caucasus 11.34 Pct
Sub_Saharan 0.49 Pct

Gedrosia 16.69 Pct
Siberian 17.85 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 1.38 Pct
Atlantic_Med 5.69 Pct
North_European 17.11 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian -
East_Asian 27.18 Pct
Caucasus 13.26 Pct
Sub_Saharan 0.83 Pct

[Leto]

Anyway I believe M2196 is a good (medieval period) proxy escpecially for Azerbaijanis since most of their turkic ancestry is from Anatolian Turks from 15th century.

Really? Iran and Azerbaijan were overrun by Seljuks by 1030, Wikipedia says. So we need samples no later than that date.

[Kaspias]

Really? Iran and Azerbaijan were overrun by Seljuks by 1030, Wikipedia says. So we need samples no later than that date.

Those Seljuks who overrun Iran migrated to Anatolia afterward which resulted in preserving identifications of non-Turkic communities in the region. On the other hand, that formerly Seljuk population Turkified Anatolia. It is the Safavid-Ottoman conflict that completed the Azerbaijani formation in the region thanks to the expelling of Alevi Turkmens from Anatolia.

The question is genetic of these Seljuks who passed Iran and Turkified Anatolia. Modern Farsi carries up to 20% Turkic admixture(a role here recent mixes with Azerbaijani and previous invasions) and some other elements from Khorasan. In this sense, it is clear that Persian genome has been changed through time. What if MA2196 is actually half medieval Persian? It would be a good candidate for the Seljuk period as my results suggest. Even if these Seljuks were still pure Central Asian when they entered the Anatolia which is unlikely from my perspective when looking into the modern DNA of Turks, MA2196 is still a good proxy for what Kyp said.

[Kyp]

Really? Iran and Azerbaijan were overrun by Seljuks by 1030, Wikipedia says. So we need samples no later than that date.

Difficult topic, but in general most Turks were mobile even until much later time. Travelers from the medievals said that the cities in NW Iran were mostly populated by non-Turks.

Target: Azerbaijani_Rep
Distance: 2.4499% / 2.44990879 | ADC: 0.25x
48.2 Iranian
25.4 Ottoman1400
23.4 Udi_Azerbaijan3
3.0 Armenian_East

Target: Kyp_Father(Azeri)
Distance: 3.2065% / 3.20645682 | ADC: 0.25x
68.2 Iranian
31.8 Ottoman1400