Transylvanian/Romanian GEDmatch Results

[Tommie]

In general, in Transylvania there are significantly more cases of people scoring more NA than Baltic compared to the rest of the country, so that probably points to the assimilation of Szeklers/Hungarians and Saxons.

I think it could be due to common ancestry shared with Szeklers/Hungarians and Saxons (i.e. Celtic admixture, Celts settled in Transylvania).

[Ion Basescul]

I think it could be due to common ancestry shared with Szeklers/Hungarians and Saxons (i.e. Celtic admixture, Celts settled in Transylvania).

I doubt that.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

I doubt that.

You can argue that Aeduard's point is correct, although there are 2 factors at play:

1) Despite the privileges of Hungarians and Szeklers, peasants were peasants and the aforementioned privileges did not concern them; mixing will happen.

2) Even so, the religious barrier proved itself to be at least partially effective in keeping populations separate from each other. The greek-catholic church probably helped with said barrier.

I think that if certified 4/4 Csango grandparent results would come up in enough numbers, we could probably use those to safely say whether mixing was older (celtic/germanic, pre-Hungarian state), or over the course of the 1000 years together.

[aherne]

These oracles shit are absolutely ridiculous. We all inherit a random selection of our ancestors' genes plus errors caused by genetic drift... In racial anthropology there is something similar called convergent evolution but racial anthropology is a lot more exact as well as being fully attributable to historic events: why do people in SE Balkans, regardless of language, look more or less the same (with regional variation), whether they are Romanian, Bulgarian or Hungarian speakers? Because before Romans, Slavs, Magyars one people used to live there: the Thracians...

[Ion Basescul]

Because before Romans, Slavs, Magyars one people used to live there: the Thracians...

Mixing with Romas/Gypsies will be the next homogenising factor for these countries.

[Peterski]

We don't have a sufficient number of Saxons to be able to conclude that.

I sent you a 100% unmixed Transylvanian Saxon kit and a 100% unmixed Banat Swabian kit.

[Ion Basescul]

I sent you a 100% unmixed Transylvanian Saxon kit and a 100% unmixed Banat Swabian kit.

Look at page 18.

[Peterski]

This is the average of 6 Saxons if anyone needs it
Romania_Transylvania_Saxon,36.95,23.28,17.66,6.80, 11.73,1.51,0.70,0.42,0.11,0.61,0.10,0.01,0.11

Apart from those 4, two more, but which - not the ones who are Serbian-like?

I have 4 Transylvanian Saxons (3 are close family) found by Peterski. They were all born in the countryside (1 in Brasov, 3 family members from Mures (Sighisoara)) and look significantly more German than those 2 that I already had. Mine were from the town of Brasov, so perhaps they are more Romanian-influenced because of the character of an urban setting.
Also interesting to note that those from urban Brasov live in Romania, while these left for Germany during the communist period.

Name	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Brasov_urban_1	28.80	23.90	16.40	11.34	15.81	1.81	0.97	0.44	0	0.32	0.14	0.08	0
Brasov_urban_2	30.10	26.02	16.78	7.59	14.70	2.70	0	0.83	0	0.89	0	0	0.37
Brasov_rural	42.38	19.00	19.51	5.95	10.16	0.78	0.72	0	0	1.08	0.43	0	0
Mures_Sighisoara_1	41.95	21.58	18.39	4.69	10.93	1.08	0.66	0	0	0.69	0	0	0
Mures_Sighisoara_2	39.60	25.27	16.14	6.41	8.05	1.75	0.84	0.85	0.67	0.09	0	0	0.29
Mures_Sighisoara_3	38.88	23.90	18.71	4.80	10.71	0.95	1.02	0.40	0	0.61	0	0	0

Distance to:	Brasov_rural
2.12739277	FRA_Central
3.58159182	Swiss_German2
3.63174889	FRA_Belgica
4.51566163	French
4.65835808	Swiss_German
5.14203267	FRA_Alsace
5.40847483	Swiss_French
6.05956269	AostaValley
6.28419446	South_Dutch
8.24403421	German_West
9.02352481	FRA_Septimania
9.91647115	FRA_Armorica
10.34858928	Spanish_Cataluna
11.15766105	German
11.19165314	Dutch
11.37286683	English_Southeast
11.40860640	Swiss-Italian2
11.87280506	FRA_Provence
11.96135026	IT_Trentino
11.99089655	Portuguese
12.02524428	Spanish_Galicia
12.04497821	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
12.23551797	Swiss_Italian
12.31381744	English_Midlands
12.85657030	English

Distance to:	Mures_Sighisoara_1
2.53333772	Swiss_German2
3.16080686	Swiss_German
3.37850559	FRA_Alsace
3.62102196	FRA_Belgica
4.23407605	FRA_Central
5.48672033	South_Dutch
5.54669271	Swiss_French
6.80499816	French
7.04455109	German_West
8.18003056	AostaValley
9.24240229	German
9.81985743	FRA_Armorica
10.27513990	Dutch
10.95749059	Austrian
11.01090369	FRA_Septimania
11.04308381	English_Southeast
11.90280219	English_Midlands
12.16497020	IT_Trentino
12.18280345	Swiss-Italian2
12.38046041	English
12.38689227	Spanish_Cataluna
12.59238262	Swiss_Italian
12.82930629	FRA_Provence
12.95168715	English_North
13.31892638	North_German

Distance to:	Mures_Sighisoara_2
3.33433652	FRA_Alsace
4.34027649	Swiss_German
5.05579865	Swiss_German2
5.12884977	German
5.56962297	Austrian
5.57752633	German_West
5.96714337	South_Dutch
6.12296497	FRA_Belgica
7.00327780	Swiss_French
9.09855483	FRA_Central
9.39289093	Dutch
10.16387229	German_East
10.29752883	FRA_Armorica
10.50510352	Hungarian_Transdanubia
10.62474000	North_German
10.85355241	English_Southeast
11.23342334	Hungarian_Budapest
11.27981383	Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
11.56289324	French
11.71968430	English_Midlands
11.86380630	English
12.06726978	Hungarian
12.27151987	AostaValley
12.35228319	Hungarian_Transylvania
12.41149467	Slovenian

Distance to:	Mures_Sighisoara_3
3.55449012	Swiss_German
3.65376518	FRA_Alsace
4.16215089	Swiss_German2
4.90979633	Swiss_French
6.33554260	FRA_Belgica
7.02778059	FRA_Central
7.61938318	South_Dutch
8.26821021	Austrian
8.30698501	German_West
8.83135890	German
9.27918639	French
9.52815827	AostaValley
11.40612993	IT_Trentino
11.65970840	Hungarian_Transdanubia
12.01204396	Dutch
12.15949423	FRA_Armorica
12.40610334	Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
12.42982703	Hungarian_Budapest
12.47817695	Hungarian_Transylvania
12.47875795	Swiss-Italian2
12.81884160	FRA_Septimania
12.88441306	German_East
12.93155056	Hungarian_Szekely
12.97435162	IT_Friuli-VG
13.01392331	Swiss_Italian

Distance to:	Brasov_urban_1
5.30186760	Montenegrin
5.42690520	Romania_Transylvania
5.48474247	Romania_Crisana
5.50428924	Serb_Croatia_Dalmatia
5.87038329	Romania_Moldavia_South
6.03164986	Romania_Oltenia
6.07109545	Bosniak_Sandzak
6.34213686	Romania_average
6.84748129	Romania_Wallachia
6.85390400	Bulgaria_Southwestern
6.86654935	Hungarian_Szekely
7.05505493	Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
7.16119403	Serb
7.16889810	Serb_Croatia
7.20710067	Serb_Serbia_South&East
7.25671413	Romania_Banat
7.28433937	Serb_Croatia_Lika
7.28998628	Serb_Serbia
7.33480743	Serb
7.51825778	Serb_Serbia_West&Central
7.56121022	Serb_B&H_Herzegovina
7.60723340	Hungarian_Transylvania
7.68179016	Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
7.72230536	Romania_Maramures
7.75199329	Romania_Muntenia

Distance to:	Brasov_urban_2
4.84617375	Hungarian_Szekely
5.20783064	Hungarian_Transylvania
5.23229395	Serb_Croatia_Dalmatia
5.78799620	Romania_Crisana
5.87176294	Hungarian_Csango
6.20710077	Serb_Croatia_Lika
6.23030497	Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
6.44443946	Serb_Croatia
6.69552089	Serb
6.84582354	Serb
6.86195307	Serb_Serbia
6.88809843	Montenegrin
6.93915701	Serb_Serbia_West&Central
6.94991367	Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.96170956	Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
7.00269948	Romania_Transylvania
7.00918683	Romania_Moldavia_South
7.07573318	Serb_B&H_Bosnia_proper
7.10736941	Romania_Maramures
7.19619344	Bosniak
7.27265426	Croat_Croatia_Istria_&_Kvarner
7.47418892	Serb_B&H
7.48444387	Croat_B&H_Bosnia_proper
7.51804496	Serb_B&H_Herzegovina
7.63457923	Serb_Serbia_South&East

Yes this makes sense! They are more German than the one who claimed being Saxon but was closest to Serbs, LOL.

Full Saxon from Brasov
If he's typical then Saxons are mixed af with Romanians.
Most of his matches have German surnames. His top 5 matches are Romanians though.

Kreuzer (also has a German forename)

#	Population	Percent
1	North_Atlantic	28.8
2	Baltic	23.9
3	West_Med	16.4
4	East_Med	15.81
5	West_Asian	11.34
6	Red_Sea	1.81
7	South_Asian	0.97
8	East_Asian	0.44
9	Amerindian	0.32
10	Oceanian	0.14
11	Northeast_African	0.08

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Serbian	4.01
2	Romanian	4.49
3	Bulgarian	7.35
4	Hungarian	10.22
5	Moldavian	10.72
6	Austrian	11.77
7	Croatian	12.66
8	East_German	14.02
9	Greek_Thessaly	14.19
10	West_German	14.62
11	North_Italian	14.7
12	French	15.38
13	South_Dutch	16.25
14	Tuscan	16.29
15	Portuguese	18.06
16	Spanish_Galicia	18.54
17	Italian_Abruzzo	18.59
18	Spanish_Cataluna	18.88
19	Ukrainian_Lviv	19.16
20	South_Polish	19.24

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#		Primary Population (source)			Secondary Population (source)			Distance
1		77.1%	Bulgarian	+	22.9%	Irish	@	1.09
2		77.6%	Bulgarian	+	22.4%	West_Scottish	@	1.18
3		85%	Romanian	+	15%	Irish	@	1.28
4		85.4%	Romanian	+	14.6%	West_Scottish	@	1.31
5		77.3%	Romanian	+	22.7%	West_German	@	1.33
6		84.7%	Romanian	+	15.3%	Southwest_English	@	1.34
7		75.7%	Bulgarian	+	24.3%	Danish	@	1.35
8		75.9%	Bulgarian	+	24.1%	North_Dutch	@	1.37
9		76.5%	Bulgarian	+	23.5%	Orcadian	@	1.41
10		83.7%	Romanian	+	16.3%	Southeast_English	@	1.41
11		73.6%	Bulgarian	+	26.4%	North_German	@	1.42
12		79.2%	Romanian	+	20.8%	South_Dutch	@	1.46
13		84.7%	Romanian	+	15.3%	Orcadian	@	1.49
14		66.9%	Bulgarian	+	33.1%	West_German	@	1.49
15		84.3%	Romanian	+	15.7%	North_Dutch	@	1.5
16		76.7%	Bulgarian	+	23.3%	Southwest_English	@	1.51
17		84.2%	Romanian	+	15.8%	Danish	@	1.52
18		75.3%	Bulgarian	+	24.7%	Southeast_English	@	1.58
19		82.7%	Romanian	+	17.3%	North_German	@	1.59
20		69.3%	Bulgarian	+	30.7%	South_Dutch	@	1.63

Target: Kreuzer Distance: 2.4531% / 2.45305566 | ADC: 0.25x
70.8	Romania_Transylvania
22.4	German_West
4.8	Ashkenazi
2.0	Romani
0.0	East_German
0.0	German_east
0.0	Hungarian_Szekely
0.0	Hungarian_Transylvania
0.0	Romania_Crisana
0.0	Romania_Banat

---

Target: Kreuzer Distance: 1.9656% / 1.96556330 | ADC: 0.25x
66.6	Romanian_Oltenia
21.2	German_West
10.8	Romania_Muntenia
0.8	Romani
0.6	Ashkenazi
0.0	East_German
0.0	German_east
0.0	Hungarian_Szekely
0.0	Hungarian_Transylvania
0.0	Romania_Moldavia_average
0.0	Romania_Moldavia_North
0.0	Romania_Moldavia_South
0.0	Romania_Transylvania
0.0	Romanian_Wallachia
0.0	Romania_Dobruja
0.0	Romania_Maramures
0.0	Romania_Crisana
0.0	Romania_Banat

Can't be a "full" Saxon.

=====

Edit:

As for A189XXX which I sent you - false alarm, he is not a Saxon, not even fully German.

[Peterski]

Top Closest population average to Transylvanian Saxons (only the 4 ones that I found):

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
DE_Bavaria:Modern
0.5219291
(...)

They are closest to my average for Bavaria.

So these people are not at all like East Germans from Elbe-Oder area and from Poland.

[Peterski]

Also interesting to note that those from urban Brasov live in Romania, while these left for Germany during the communist period.

So the ones who stayed in Romania, most likely have intermarried with Romanians during the last 50 years.

Or how otherwise do you explain that they are so Non-Germanic despite claiming "fully" Saxon ancestry?

I think they must be recently mixed with Romanians/Hungarians.