Serbian autosomal DNA #2

[vbnetkhio]

Of course Vojvodina was settled by Serbs before 1690.
First large Serbian settlements in Srem and southern Banat were formed in 15th century, when Ottomans conquered Serbian despotate.

After Mohač battle in 1526, when Ottomans conquered almost entire Pannonian basin, there was dominant Serbian population all across Srem, Banat and Bačka, in todays Vojvodina.
The best evidence of majority Serbian presence in todays Vojvodina in 16th century was Banat uprising in 1594.


I dont know how much of todays native Vojvodina Serbs have roots from these earlier settlers, and how much from great migration in 1690.
The fact is that Serbs are in Vojvodina way before 1690.

I know. Srem was ruled by some Serbian kings before the Ottomans. There are also mentions of Serb individuals in Banat even before the Ottomans.

But Vojvodina Serbs all claim origins from the more recent migrations.

These oral traditions can be misleading. There is around 10% of n-p189.2 + j2b1 in native Vojvodina Serbs. I suppose it came from Krajina Serbs settling there during Habsburg Empire/Austria-Hungary? This is a significant percentage.

[Varda]

I think there are among native Vojvodina Serbs much more of these with roots in Vojvodina before 1690.

Why do I say that? Because after migrations of 1690, whole Banat and eastern part of Srem were still under Ottoman rule.
These areas were not settled in great migrations in 1690.

Austrians conquered these areas in 1718. and they found there Serbian population.

It's possible. Our mainsteam history see average native Vojvodinian Serb as descendant of settlers from Raška or Kosovo in 1690 with Čarnojević.
Sremac from Poreklo said that in Syrmia there is a small number of Serbs whose ancestors arrived in 1690. Most of them are in Syrmia before 1690 or they came from Krajina in 18th and 19th century (eastern part of Syrmia have a lot of Serbs with Krajina origin in 18th and 19th century - between Inđija and Zemun).

[Dušan]

I know. Srem was ruled by some Serbian kings before the Ottomans. There are also mentions of Serb individuals in Banat even before the Ottomans.

But Vojvodina Serbs all claim origins from the more recent migrations.

These oral traditions can be misleading. There is around 10% of n-p189.2 + j2b1 in native Vojvodina Serbs. I suppose it came from Krajina Serbs settling there during Habsburg Empire/Austria-Hungary? This is a significant percentage.

Yes, there were settling of Krajina Serbs from Lika, Dalmatia, Kordun in fertile areas of Vojvodina in 18th and 19th century.
These areas could not manage to feed the growing population, so one part of people moved to Srem, Bačka and Banat.

[Varda]

Yes, there were settling of Krajina Serbs from Lika, Dalmatia, Kordun in fertile areas of Vojvodina in 18th and 19th century.
These areas could not manage to feed the growing population, so one part of people moved to Srem, Bačka and Banat.

I know a lot of Sremci from eastern Syrmia whose ancestors came from northern Dalmatia and Lika roughly 1770-1900.
For example village Surduk was founded by Serbian settlers from these regions in 1770s. Surnames of native Surdučani are almost 100% Lika and northern Dalmatian.

[Kaspias]

Žambok is Hungarian, his roots are from Debrecen in Hungary, so he shouldn't have a close connection with the others. These k13 results I posted are of the Marković family. Djurovski and Šaranac are the Macedonian and South Serbian I mentioned. I assumed the last 3 are connected.

Hromček also isn't a Serb. He just said he's a catholic from Subotica, his family settled there around 1800, and the surname was originally Hromek. It's found among west Slavs and in Croatia.
Todor is only in the FTDNA Q project? He's more likely Todorov or Todorović, the "Todor" surname doesnt exist there.

Vojvodina Serbs mostly came from the wider South Serbian region between 1690 and 1740. There seems to have been a lot of identity switching between Serbs and Romanians in eastern Vojvodina, I found such people on gedmatch, so that's a real possibility. Other than that no. Serbs assimilating into Hungarians was much more likely.

I'm not talking about the recent times here. (after ww2), e.g. maybe this Hromček and Žambok consider themselves Serbs nowadays.

There were earlier waves of Serb setlement in Vojvodina, but i think they were all assimilated into Hungarians. I never heard of a Vojvodina Serb with roots there older than 1690. Maybe Varda will know more.

Djurovski, Šaranac and Marković are probably connected then. Note the hotspot in Southern Serbia, Northern Macedonia, and Western Bulgaria. There is also a Bulgarian from Radomir who is under L712 and an F15008(F16045) is from Vratsa.

Yes, he is from Q project. Todor does not reply to me, so I do not know if it is his actual surname or just his name. Anyway, he matches with a Bulgarian(common ancestor in last 300 years) from Plovdiv whose village is in the skirts of the Central Balkan Mountains. The village was populated by Turks before Russo-Turkish War so his ancestor was not a native of the region. There is a register that mentions Bulgarians of that village came from Razlog, Blagoevgrad in the last 150 years. So even if it is not Razlog still should have origin from Western Bulgaria or even from Southern Serbia as they are somehow connected to the Todor from Svrljig.

[Dušan]

It's possible. Our mainsteam history see average native Vojvodinian Serb as descendant of settlers from Raška or Kosovo in 1690 with Čarnojević.
Sremac from Poreklo said that in Syrmia there is a small number of Serbs whose ancestors arrived in 1690. Most of them are in Syrmia before 1690 or they came from Krajina in 18th and 19th century (eastern part of Syrmia have a lot of Serbs with Krajina origin in 18th and 19th century - between Inđija and Zemun).

Eastern part of Srem and whole Banat were under Ottoman rule until 1718.
How could Serbs fleeing from Ottomans in migration 1690. settle these areas if these areas are still under Ottomans?

Simple logic says its not possible.

Yeah, I dislike that mainstream "Serbs are in Vojvodina since 1690."
No its not true.

There are Ottoman census defters who record Serbian majority presence in Vojvodina in 16th and 17th century. Even Hungarian historians admit that.

[vbnetkhio]

Djurovski, Šaranac and Marković are probably connected then. Note the hotspot in Southern Serbia, Northern Macedonia, and Western Bulgaria. There is also a Bulgarian from Radomir who is under L712 and an F15008(F16045) is from Vratsa.

Yes, he is from Q project. Todor does not reply to me, so I do not know if it is his actual surname or just his name. Anyway, he matches with a Bulgarian(common ancestor in last 300 years) from Plovdiv whose village is in the skirts of the Central Balkan Mountains. The village was populated by Turks before Russo-Turkish War so his ancestor was not a native of the region. There is a register that mentions Bulgarians of that village came from Razlog, Blagoevgrad in the last 150 years. So even if it is not Razlog still should have origin from Western Bulgaria or even from Southern Serbia as they are somehow connected to the Todor from Svrljig.

Šaranac is apparently a recent settler from Herzegovina, so this complicates things further.
Many South Serbs claim origins from Kyustendil, and Blagoevgrad is close, so maybe both Todor and the Bulgarian came from there.

[Dušan]

It's possible. Our mainsteam history see average native Vojvodinian Serb as descendant of settlers from Raška or Kosovo in 1690 with Čarnojević.
Sremac from Poreklo said that in Syrmia there is a small number of Serbs whose ancestors arrived in 1690. Most of them are in Syrmia before 1690 or they came from Krajina in 18th and 19th century (eastern part of Syrmia have a lot of Serbs with Krajina origin in 18th and 19th century - between Inđija and Zemun).

Here is ethnic-religious map of Srem in 16th century during Ottoman rule.



Blue are Serbs, red are Croats and Hungarians - these red areas are mostly in todays Croatia. Green crescent are Muslim populated areas.

As you can see, a lot of toponymes that exist today in Srem, existed even nearly 500 years ago!

All Serbian Orthodox monasteries on Fruška gora are recorded. There were even 25 of them.

[Varda]

Here is ethnic-religious map of Srem in 16th century during Ottoman rule.



Blue are Serbs, red are Croats and Hungarians - these red areas are mostly in todays Croatia. Green crescent are Muslim populated areas.

As you can see, a lot of toponymes that exist today in Srem, existed even nearly 500 years ago!

All Serbian Orthodox monasteries on Fruška gora are recorded. There were even 25 of them.

An example of Srem Serb whose ancestors are in Srem long time before 1690 is Siniša Kovačević https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siniša_Kovačević
He say his cousin historian researched origin of family in many archives and determined they are present in Srem about 20 generations, their far origin is from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grahovo,_Nikšić

In 1690 Serbs settled in smaller part of present day Vojvodina, only in part of Bačka (plus in Baranja and western Hungary). Not in Syrmia, Banat and southern/eastern Bačka.

[Varda]

I think there are among native Vojvodina Serbs much more of these with roots in Vojvodina before 1690.

Why do I say that? Because after migrations of 1690, whole Banat and eastern part of Srem were still under Ottoman rule.
These areas were not settled in great migrations in 1690.

Austrians conquered these areas in 1718. and they found there Serbian population.

On the map in my previous post is marked that Serbs in 1690 settled only in part of Bačka of present day Vojvodina. But it happened that large part of Serbs who in 1690 settled in present day Hungary was pushed towards the south in present day Vojvodina in uprising of Ferenc Rákóczi 1703-11. Serbian settlers were target of Rákóczi's revolutionary army, many of them moved to the south and some were killed.