Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

**Jana** · 12-10-2021, 11:30 AM

There is also notable lack of middle eastern and Anatolian haplogroups among south Slavs, this J2b1 M205 are large minority. Vast majority of pre-Slavic branches seem native.
I know Croat with Armenian/MENA like R1b but that's really not common at all.

If there was large Imperial Roman input (male soldier transmitted one), it should be reflected in the haplogroups and so far nothing indicates in such direction.

No, I think Roman influence was modest and pre-Slavic population couldn't be lot more southern than central Italians (Abruzzo max), and that ofc proto Slavs were very much northern like, not like Ukrainians.
Thus Slavic input is significantly lower and native higher than in lately popular estimates.

Let's wait for more samples to see. I heard we will get Slavs from Prague Korchak culture soo (very relevant for south Slavs). I place a bet they will be Belarussian-Lithuanian like.

**vbnetkhio** · 12-10-2021, 11:31 AM

Germanic influence shouldn't be underestimated. When I2a and R1a is removed from Dalmatian Croats, the I1 jumps to 20%. In south Serbia, it goes to 3%
Dalmatian croats -27% North Atlantic, South Serbs - 23%

**Jana** · 12-10-2021, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Germanic influence shouldn't be underestimated. When I2a and R1a is removed from Dalmatian Croats, the I1 jumps to 20%. In south Serbia, it goes to 3%
Dalmatian croats -27% North Atlantic, South Serbs - 23%

Yes.
But Serbs have overall higher I1 than Croats. Isn't it 20%+ in some parts of Raška/Sandžak and also high in Dalmatian Serbs?. Indeed there was Germanic influence too.
Not all northern input is from Slavs. In Slovenia and NW Croatia too, there was Celtic type of input and than later German.

**Varda** · 12-10-2021, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

J2b2 L283 and it subcaldes seems to be main Illyrian marker, found in ancient Dalmatian and notably present in Daunians of Apulia, who were of Illyrian origin. Also various branches of R1b L23.
E-V13 seems notably absent so far from Illyrian related regions and samples but it was highly present among Moesians.

Thus Thracians seem to be highly E-V13.

Modern Albanians are not pure Illyrian, their old Balkan ancestry is mix of Illyrians (J2b2, some R1b) and Thracians, maybe some Greeks as well (E-V13) roughly speaking. This would correspond of central Balkans as transitional Illyrio-Thracian zone as origin of proto-Albanian language, far away from the sea which explains lack of native maritime vocabulary in Albanian language.

Roughly speaking ex Dardania and in close contact with proto-Romanian.

Among Dalmatian Croatians J2b-M205 is stronger than J2b-M241.

Neša (you know him from anthro.) posted statistic for Dalmatian Croatians from 23andMe (163 samples), J2b-M205 is 4.2% and J2b-M241 is 0.6% https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...2291#msg162291

**Jana** · 12-10-2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Varda

Among Dalmatian Croatians J2b-M205 is stronger than J2b-M241.

Neša (you know him from anthro.) posted statistic for Dalmatian Croatians from 23andMe (163 samples), J2b-M205 is 4.2% and J2b-M241 is 0.6% https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...2291#msg162291

No, I don't think so. I never saw my match with J2b1 and I have "many" matches with J2b2.

this says the same, J2 is Dalmatia is more J2b than J2a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats

**vbnetkhio** · 12-10-2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Yes.
But Serbs have overall higher I1 than Croats. Isn't it 20%+ in some parts of Raška/Sandžak and also high in Dalmatian Serbs?. Indeed there was Germanic influence too.
Not all northern input is from Slavs. In Slovenia and NW Croatia too, there was Celtic type of input and than later German.

Most of that could be from the recent Drobnjaci founder effect.

**Varda** · 12-10-2021, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Yes.
But Serbs have overall higher I1 than Croats. Isn't it 20%+ in some parts of Raška/Sandžak and also high in Dalmatian Serbs?. Indeed there was Germanic influence too.
Not all northern input is from Slavs. In Slovenia and NW Croatia too, there was Celtic type of input and than later German.

I1 among Dalmatian Serbs is 20%+ only with 13-14 tested Macure. With reduced Macure (when only 1 Macura is counted) it's lower but still high.

Nothern Dalmatian Serbs posted by Neša in August this year (116 samples) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...1471#msg161471
I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I1 = 14.7%
E1b = 12.1%
R1a = 9.5%
J2b = 7.8%
N2 = 7.8%
R1b = 3.4%
J1 = 2.6%

**Jana** · 12-10-2021, 11:49 AM

I know one Dalmatian with J2b1 (not my match though), and he is from Kaštela, his lineages documented deeply into pre-Ottoman times in that town.
So my theory is that J2b1 spread into mountains of Montenegro from Dalmatian coast, where it arrived in Roman times from orient and later there was back migration west with movement of Slavophone orthodox sheperds.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dalmatian from Kaštela has older mutation than Kriči do have.

**Jana** · 12-10-2021, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Varda

I1 among Dalmatian Serbs is 20%+ only with 13-14 tested Macure. With reduced Macure (when only 1 Macura is counted) it's lower but still high.

Nothern Dalmatian Serbs posted by Neša in August this year (116 samples) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...1471#msg161471
I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I1 = 14.7%
E1b = 12.1%
R1a = 9.5%
J2b = 7.8%
N2 = 7.8%
R1b = 3.4%
J1 = 2.6%

Yes, high I1. But just like I2 in Herzegovina Croats, it can be results of founder effect among herding populations in sparsely populated area.