Rank the Germanic admixture

[Jana]

Closest 2-ways for them from the whole sheet

Distance to: German_East
0.61769895 54.60% Polish_Silesia + 45.40% Dutch_South
0.70622479 58.80% Polish_Silesia + 41.20% French_Northwest
0.75281217 43.60% Polish_Silesia + 56.40% German
0.86302742 49.00% Polish_Mazovia + 51.00% Flemish
0.96969296 49.20% Polish_Mazovia + 50.80% Belgian
0.99607653 48.40% Polish_Mazovia + 51.60% Dutch_South
1.00208508 55.00% Polish_Silesia + 45.00% Flemish
1.04182752 48.40% French_Northwest + 51.60% Ukrainian
1.04733230 37.80% Polish_Mazovia + 62.20% German
1.04982329 59.00% French_Northeast + 41.00% Lithuanian

Target: German_East
Distance: 0.2692% / 0.26915544 | R3P
47.3 Polish_Silesia
29.4 English_Southwest
23.3 Austrian

They appear to be a 3-way Celto-Slavo-Germanic mix, unlike those from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

Indeed, those are from Leipzig, Saxony. They are like Czechs with more Germanic input kind of.

[Blondie]

Have there been any pure South Tyrolean, Danube/Banat Swabian or Transylvania Saxon results posted? I can't remember.

Doesn't matter, because these pure result don't represent danube swabians in general. I would say an average danube swabian is 3/4 german and 1/4 hungarian.

Technically that's how they should be however I seen some Transylvania Saxon results posted on this forum that looked pretty Balkanic, which means at certain point in time they mixed with Székelys and Romanians, their immediate neighbors. Same can be said about Danube Swabians, they also mixed with the Hungarians of the Pannonian Plain, so today they will plot basically as Austrians, who might be the least Germanic group genetically. We really need some representative averages for both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, it's really hard to find unmixed individuals. In Germany there must live hundreds of thousands of such people, since during Communism they migrated there, especially leaving Romania.

These who migrated to Germany are not danube swabians anymore. Danube swabian means german who live in Hungary, its a generic name for all hungarian german. If Teutone would move to Hungary to live he would be also danube swabian.

[Jana]

No, not really, danube swabians are minority everywhere except some village, they are mixing with hungarians, i think transylvanian saxons do same. We are in the 21. century. I dont know any danube swabian who has no any hungarian ancestor.

I think you misunderstood me. Vast majority of Danube Swabians are living in Germany and Austria today, what was left in Hungary are remnants.
What I am saying is that most Swabians pre-WW2 were not mixed, and among minority who stayed mixed people were likely overrepresented (people who went into cities and Magyarized etc)

[Jana]

Technically that's how they should be however I seen some Transylvania Saxon results posted on this forum that looked pretty Balkanic, which means at certain point in time they mixed with Székelys and Romanians, their immediate neighbors. Same can be said about Danube Swabians, they also mixed with the Hungarians of the Pannonian Plain, so today they will plot basically as Austrians, who might be the least Germanic group genetically. We really need some representative averages for both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, it's really hard to find unmixed individuals. In Germany there must live hundreds of thousands of such people, since during Communism they migrated there, especially leaving Romania.

I think admixture with Romanians is only during communist times (among those who did not leave), here is unmixed Transylvanian Saxon result for example:

Distance to: Siebenbürger_Sachsen

3.33433652 French_Alsace
3.69991892 German_South
4.34027649 Swiss_German
5.04889097 German
5.05579865 Swiss_German2
5.56962297 Austrian
5.57752633 German_West
5.57816278 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.12296497 French_Northeast
6.38660317 Afrikaner
6.53892958 Belgian
6.84306949 Flemish
7.00327780 Swiss_French
7.33641602 Dutch_South
9.09855483 French_Central
10.16387229 German_East
10.29752883 French_Northwest
10.56049241 English_Southeast
10.62474000 North_German
10.80175449 German_Northwest
11.14858287 Dutch
11.28957484 English_Midlands
11.41196302 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
11.43810736 English
11.56289324 French

Target: Siebenbürger_Sachsen
Distance: 1.2610% / 1.26097469 | R2P

89.8 French_Alsace
10.2 Russian_Smolensk

Very tiny EE input. And as you can see they aren't really Saxon either (Hungarian court chancellary gave them such name), but southwestern Germans.

[Kyp]

Doesn't matter, because these pure result don't represent danube swabians in general. I would say an average danube swabian is 3/4 german and 1/4 hungarian.



These who migrated to Germany are not danube swabians anymore. Danube swabian means german who live in Hungary, its a generic name for all hungarian german. If Teutone would move to Hungary to live he would be also danube swabian.

I doubt he would be Danube Swabian tbh, wouldn't he just be a German in Hungary?

Doesn't Danube Swabian refer to a specific group of migrators? Or at least from a specific timeframe?

[rothaer]

No, not really, danube swabians are minority everywhere except some village, they are mixing with hungarians, i think transylvanian saxons do same. We are in the 21. century. I dont know any danube swabian who has no any hungarian ancestor.

Yes, but only because you are referring to these that stayed in Hungary. Most Danube Swabians are in Germany and do mix there as well, but with other Germans.

As for you saying Volga Germans look Russian: This will have a resembling explanation. You will refer to such ones that come today and claim they are Volga Germans. These are regularly the least German ones out of the Volga Germans. The same is applicable to Germans from Poland or people claiming they are Germans today. I'ts an expressed non-German selection that lives in Poland today. They were spared from expulsion because they were considered autochtonic Slavs by the Poles (and most of them actually were ethnic Poles in 1907).

(As for the ethnicity of Germans in Poland that has been thoroughly examined in all aspects in 1939-1945. These who where ethinc Germans got Deutsche Volksliste (DVL) section 1 and 2 and blue ID cards. These who got DVL section 3 (and green ID cards) could be misunderstood as some Germans today, as they had an ID card with the title "Deutsche Volksliste", but in fact they were never ethnic Germans, not even in the German-friendly view of the national socialist government!)

So what you are referring to as "Danube Swabians" and "Volga Germans" are just the tragic remnants of these. 95% of the real ones you find in Germany (Austria and FRG).

[rothaer]

Their origin is unrelated with east Germans except in tiny minority (Banat Swabians in minority descend from central Germans who have some Slavic, I have one such surname). You can't use example of people who stayed in communist Hungary or Romania as representative, most were expelled to west Germany and Austria and were unmixed. Most likely those that were not expelled were already mixed with eg. Hungarians and thus spared deportation. Rural Swabians married with their own people and kept to themselves.

You can see results of TA Volga German user yowasgeht in Germany and his family, they are pure west Germans.

That is spot on.

[rothaer]

I think you misunderstood me. Vast majority of Danube Swabians are living in Germany and Austria today, what was left in Hungary are remnants.
What I am saying is that most Swabians pre-WW2 were not mixed, and among minority who stayed mixed people were likely overrepresented (people who went into cities and Magyarized etc)

Even more spot on. Must have crossed with my comment.

[rothaer]

I doubt he would be Danube Swabian tbh, wouldn't he just be a German in Hungary?

Doesn't Danube Swabian refer to a specific group of migrators? Or at least from a specific timeframe?

Yes.

[Dunai]

I think admixture with Romanians is only during communist times (among those who did not leave), here is unmixed Transylvanian Saxon result for example:

Distance to: Siebenbürger_Sachsen

3.33433652 French_Alsace
3.69991892 German_South
4.34027649 Swiss_German
5.04889097 German
5.05579865 Swiss_German2
5.56962297 Austrian
5.57752633 German_West
5.57816278 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.12296497 French_Northeast
6.38660317 Afrikaner
6.53892958 Belgian
6.84306949 Flemish
7.00327780 Swiss_French
7.33641602 Dutch_South
9.09855483 French_Central
10.16387229 German_East
10.29752883 French_Northwest
10.56049241 English_Southeast
10.62474000 North_German
10.80175449 German_Northwest
11.14858287 Dutch
11.28957484 English_Midlands
11.41196302 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
11.43810736 English
11.56289324 French

Target: Siebenbürger_Sachsen
Distance: 1.2610% / 1.26097469 | R2P

89.8 French_Alsace
10.2 Russian_Smolensk

Very tiny EE input. And as you can see they aren't really Saxon either (Hungarian court chancellary gave them such name), but southwestern Germans.

It would be good to see averages for these groups, because it's very difficult to draw conclusions based on just a few samples. I have a feeling that both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians mixed with the locals not only in the past century but also earlier, however it remains only a speculation when we don't have conclusive genetic data about it.