Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age

[Grace O'Malley]

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.8097% / 0.01809662
48.4 Scotland
32.8 Netherlands
17.8 Channel_Islands
1.0 England

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.02060902 Scotland
0.02224816 England
0.02360064 Netherlands
0.02886343 Wales
0.04155170 Czech
0.04250428 Channel_Islands
0.04723374 France
0.06453100 Slovakia
0.06565588 Hungary
0.07296607 Austria
0.07392531 Slovenia
0.08521252 Croatia
0.09207228 Spain

Distance to: Irish
0.01445038 England
0.01574098 Scotland
0.02347134 Netherlands
0.02379858 Wales
0.03622487 Czech
0.03984915 Channel_Islands
0.03992438 France
0.05955063 Slovakia
0.06140451 Hungary
0.06674569 Austria
0.06803094 Slovenia
0.07817693 Croatia
0.08667246 Spain

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1727% / 0.01172697
49.8 Scotland
37.6 England
7.6 Netherlands
4.2 Austria
0.8 Croatia

[J. Ketch]

Unless Ireland was Celticised by people from NW France (highly unlikely), it must have come from Southern Britain. But modern Irish have closer EEF levels to Iron Age Southern British than to the Bronze Age British/Irish, and practically identical EEF to the 2 South Wales IA samples. So how can they not be mostly descended from Celtic Britons? Genuinely wondering. And when? Same time as the potential Belgae invasion of Southern Britain (Fir Bolg?), or from people in Southern Britain displaced by them? All the same timeframe as the split in Insular Celtic languages too, late 1st Millennium BC. Would be amazing if Ireland was non-Celtic for that long.

Apparently North Wales was still genetically non-Celtic in 276 BC, so it's not too far-fetched.

Target: Wales_MIA_LIA:I16475 (Clwyd, N. Wales, 276 BC)
Distance: 5.0084% / 0.05008374
54.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.6 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 WHG

Distance to: Wales_MIA_LIA:I16475
0.03337006 Norwegian
0.03601941 Irish
0.03633166 Shetlandic
0.03717867 Scottish
0.03801615 Orcadian
0.03897826 Icelandic
0.03907394 Danish
0.03951776 Dutch
0.04079829 Welsh
0.04160797 English

[J.S.]

1) Could the huge number of French-like Central samples vs the few IA French ones, poorly representative of the local diversity, screw up the models?

2) Does the coverage affect the Vahaduo results?

3) Why (what does it mean), how du you explain the Central IA models are so French-like?

nb: Merry Christmas everybody.

[Peterski]

I19358 & I19362 are brothers - I guess they had different mothers and shared only a father in common?:

Distance to: FRA_GrandEst_IA2:I19358
0.03191767 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03523377 Belgian
0.03625177 French_Alsace
0.03650684 Swiss_German
0.03656152 French_Nord
(...)

Distance to: FRA_GrandEst_IA2:I19362
0.02578786 Scottish
0.02583422 Orcadian
0.02639681 English
0.02643703 Welsh
0.02753693 German
(...)

^^^
Autosomally there is quite a substantial difference between these brothers (they are both R1b-L617 ).

=====

Supplement page 103, quote:

"The individuals providing samples I19358, I19362, I19360 and I19363 represent first degree relatives: samples I19358 and I19362 are the sons of I19363, and I19360 is the brother of I19363."

[Peterski]

3) Why (what does it mean), how du you explain the Central IA models are so French-like?

By Central IA do you mean Central European?

[J.S.]

By Central IA do you mean Central European?

I do.
By the way, after you posted on the Two French brothers, i checked Ajeje Brazorv,s list.
https://pastebin.com/raw/TLFmWx1A
At least 3 French IA are not included in.

Celtic_paper:I19360,0.12862,0.13405,0.062602,0.045 22,0.0397,0.013945,0.003995,0.006461,0.010022,0.00 656,-0.001624,0.007643,-0.01665,-0.006881,0.012622,-0.01485,-0.018775,0.00114,0.00264,-0.007379,0.008485,0.000618,-0.001725,-0.007591,-0.000359
Celtic_paper:I19363,0.122929,0.13405,0.058831,0.04 0375,0.040623,0.009761,0.00658,0.008307,0.006545,0 .014397,0.008769,0.01109,-0.010704,-0.008395,0.013301,0.001856,-0.003912,-0.004054,-0.000754,0.000625,0.004367,-0.003833,-0.005916,0.005181,0.005628
Celtic_paper:I21403,0.120652,0.148267,0.053551,0.0 24871,0.040315,0.006693,-0.007285,-0.008307,0.018816,0.033896,-0.002923,0.018883,-0.024975,-0.006744,0.003122,-0.002387,-0.002086,0.009882,0.005405,-0.010005,0.004866,-0.001855,-0.005546,-0.003615,0.002515

[J.S.]

New coordinates by Davidski, these one should be better than the previous

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VFr...WU4TIppjB/view

At least 3 French IA are not included in.

Celtic_paper:I19360,0.12862,0.13405,0.062602,0.045 22,0.0397,0.013945,0.003995,0.006461,0.010022,0.00 656,-0.001624,0.007643,-0.01665,-0.006881,0.012622,-0.01485,-0.018775,0.00114,0.00264,-0.007379,0.008485,0.000618,-0.001725,-0.007591,-0.000359
Celtic_paper:I19363,0.122929,0.13405,0.058831,0.04 0375,0.040623,0.009761,0.00658,0.008307,0.006545,0 .014397,0.008769,0.01109,-0.010704,-0.008395,0.013301,0.001856,-0.003912,-0.004054,-0.000754,0.000625,0.004367,-0.003833,-0.005916,0.005181,0.005628
Celtic_paper:I21403,0.120652,0.148267,0.053551,0.0 24871,0.040315,0.006693,-0.007285,-0.008307,0.018816,0.033896,-0.002923,0.018883,-0.024975,-0.006744,0.003122,-0.002387,-0.002086,0.009882,0.005405,-0.010005,0.004866,-0.001855,-0.005546,-0.003615,0.002515

[Albannach]

Target: Albannach_scaled
Distance: 1.9867% / 0.01986726
59.6 Scotland
26.8 Netherlands
7.8 Channel_Islands
5.8 Austria

Distance to: Albannach_scaled
0.02148156 Scotland
0.02565249 Netherlands
0.02611663 England
0.03468500 Wales
0.04424863 Channel_Islands
0.04480317 Czech
0.04634680 France
0.06462145 Slovakia
0.06713325 Hungary
0.07214210 Austria
0.07381469 Slovenia
0.08464201 Croatia
0.09375958 Spain

[J.S.]

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19356,0.12862,0.129988,0.0610 94,0.041021,0.048317,0.011713,0.00517,0.008769,-0.002454,0.007654,-0.004384,0.009442,-0.010406,-0.011423,0.008822,-0.000398,-0.001956,0.00038,0.003394,0.002501,0.000125,-0.001607,0.000616,-0.004579,-0.000838

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19357,0.127482,0.142174,0.061 471,0.04845,0.051086,0.00502,0.00376,0.008077,0.01 3703,0.012574,-0.002761,0.002248,-0.010406,-0.007844,0.022937,-0.005967,-0.024512,0.006588,-0.005028,0.001501,0.010482,0.010758,-0.007395,-0.005061,-0.002994

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19358,0.134311,0.132019,0.049 403,0.032623,0.046778,0.01757,0.011516,0.003461,0. 009204,0.007107,0.011205,0.01169,-0.009217,-0.00578,0.009908,-0.009812,-0.024251,-0.0019,-0.000754,-0.005002,0.007487,0.003833,-0.000493,0.002289,0.00012

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19359,0.143417,0.136081,0.049 403,0.027132,0.029544,0.016733,-0.000705,-0.006461,0.02127,0.009294,0,-0.001049,-0.002825,-0.013487,0.003529,0.020154,-0.03064,-0.004814,-0.004651,-0.002126,-0.006489,-0.013107,0.007888,-0.005904,0.001916

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19362,0.133173,0.133034,0.061 848,0.050065,0.029236,0.011156,0.007285,0.013153,-0.002045,0.004191,-0.008282,0.004796,-0.010406,-0.009358,0.018865,-0.002917,-0.001695,0.005954,0.008045,0.007379,0.00262,0.0055 64,0.003204,0.000482,-0.007903

France_GrandEst_IA2:I20815,0.126344,0.141159,0.051 666,0.032946,0.054472,0.010598,0.004935,0.008077,0 .01084,0.015672,-0.009906,0.012889,-0.006838,-0.005505,0.013029,-0.016574,-0.023339,0.006588,0.004902,-0.005878,0.007861,0.005193,-0.008997,0.002048,-0.008502

France_GrandEst_IA2:I20817,0.132035,0.139128,0.059 208,0.04199,0.043085,0.02008,0.003995,-0.000231,0.004295,0.004009,-0.011854,0.008842,-0.010704,-0.013074,0.021172,-0.005701,-0.016689,0.005954,0.006285,0.008129,0.012603,0.006 801,0.006902,0.001566,0.005987

France_GrandEst_IA2:I21931,0.120652,0.125926,0.056 191,0.028101,0.04647,0.015339,0.001645,-0.006231,0.010226,0.014397,-0.002923,-0.002847,-0.014866,-0.016928,0.015472,-0.010475,-0.007041,0.00152,0.004148,-0.013882,0.005241,0.000247,-0.005053,-0.003976,0.001197


France_GrandEst_IA2:I21402,0.127482,0.136081,0.062 979,0.036822,0.047086,-0.000279,-0.00047,-0.000462,0.014521,0.018588,-0.001299,0.005995,-0.010852,-0.011698,0.012486,0.002254,0.001434,-0.003547,-0.003394,-0.001,0.007861,-0.001484,0.004437,-0.002289,0.002754

France_GrandEst_IA2:I20827,0.124067,0.139128,0.058 454,0.023902,0.051086,0.005299,0.00658,0.001615,0. 010431,0.023508,-0.00682,0.004196,-0.024678,-0.006331,0.008279,0.013259,-0.00326,-0.000887,0.008296,0.001501,0.003369,-0.001237,0.002588,-0.006507,-0.003592

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19360,0.12862,0.13405,0.06260 2,0.04522,0.0397,0.013945,0.003995,0.006461,0.0100 22,0.00656,-0.001624,0.007643,-0.01665,-0.006881,0.012622,-0.01485,-0.018775,0.00114,0.00264,-0.007379,0.008485,0.000618,-0.001725,-0.007591,-0.000359

France_GrandEst_IA2:I21399,0.121791,0.144205,0.052 797,0.027132,0.057549,0.001116,-0.000235,0.005538,0.022089,0.021868,-0.002761,0.009442,-0.015163,-0.006468,0.007872,0.000265,-0.002608,0.006461,-0.00264,-0.000625,0.003743,0.007543,-0.007395,-0.002289,-0.002515

France_GrandEst_IA2:I21403,0.120652,0.148267,0.053 551,0.024871,0.040315,0.006693,-0.007285,-0.008307,0.018816,0.033896,-0.002923,0.018883,-0.024975,-0.006744,0.003122,-0.002387,-0.002086,0.009882,0.005405,-0.010005,0.004866,-0.001855,-0.005546,-0.003615,0.002515



France_GrandEst_IA2:I19360,0.12862,0.13405,0.06260 2,0.04522,0.0397,0.013945,0.003995,0.006461,0.0100 22,0.00656,-0.001624,0.007643,-0.01665,-0.006881,0.012622,-0.01485,-0.018775,0.00114,0.00264,-0.007379,0.008485,0.000618,-0.001725,-0.007591,-0.000359

France_GrandEst_IA2:I19363,0.122929,0.13405,0.0588 31,0.040375,0.040623,0.009761,0.00658,0.008307,0.0 06545,0.014397,0.008769,0.01109,-0.010704,-0.008395,0.013301,0.001856,-0.003912,-0.004054,-0.000754,0.000625,0.004367,-0.003833,-0.005916,0.005181,0.005628

France_GrandEst_IA2:I21403,0.120652,0.148267,0.053 551,0.024871,0.040315,0.006693,-0.007285,-0.008307,0.018816,0.033896,-0.002923,0.018883,-0.024975,-0.006744,0.003122,-0.002387,-0.002086,0.009882,0.005405,-0.010005,0.004866,-0.001855,-0.005546,-0.003615,0.002515




France_SouthEast_IA2:I13620,0.127482,0.136081,0.06 1094,0.013889,0.044316,0.01255,0.001645,0.003923,0 .019225,0.030069,-0.007795,0.01109,-0.019475,-0.003716,0.014251,-0.005569,-0.024251,0.014316,0.01345,-0.0005,0.011854,-0.001978,-0.006286,0.005302,-0.002275

France_SouthEast_IA2:I13623,0.12862,0.148267,0.065 996,0.013889,0.051086,-0.014223,-0.011281,0.011769,0.022089,0.04647,-0.005684,0.013788,-0.025421,-0.016102,0.009093,0.008486,0.01017,-0.00228,-0.001131,0.009129,0.004243,0.011994,0.006902,0.000 964,-0.004431

France_SouthEast_IA2:I19916,0.130897,0.145221,0.06 0716,0.020026,0.048009,0.001116,0.0047,0.005077,0. 016771,0.031527,0.005034,0.009442,-0.007879,-0.018166,0.004072,0.007027,0.013951,0.000887,-0.010307,0.005753,0.001622,-0.001484,-0.008381,-0.005904,-0.008502

France_SouthEast_IA2:I19917,0.122929,0.15436,0.058 077,0.008721,0.043085,0.001116,0.004935,0.000231,0 .02127,0.033531,-0.002111,0.012589,-0.021556,-0.004404,0.012893,-0.001326,-0.003781,0.003927,0.000628,-0.004252,-0.002995,0.004328,0.002095,-0.003615,0.006466

France_SouthEast_IA2:I19918,0.117238,0.144205,0.05 6568,0.017442,0.045855,0.001952,0,0.000692,0.01656 6,0.031527,0.00406,0.011839,-0.027502,-0.021882,0.008958,-0.001193,-0.00665,0.001774,0.008547,-0.000625,0.001996,0.009645,-0.017501,0.001928,0.003233

It would be great if we had a whole French and the two regional averages. Yet, i can't do it myself.

[Peterski]

I19857 is southern-shifted for his location.


When using K36 he is closer to Bretagne and the rest of north France, than to the UK:


Sample I19857
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 4.2
Central African 0
Central Euro 7.41
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 0.86
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 5.17
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 4.7
Fennoscandian 2.22
French 2.18
Iberian 25.36
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 8.97
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 15.29
North Caucasian 4.2
North Sea 16.32
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0.7
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 1.22
West African 0
West Caucasian 1.21
West Med 0


https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm





When using Global25, the result is similar (closest to Bretagne):


Distance to: England_MBA:I19857
0.02057343 French_Brittany
0.02317623 Welsh
0.02483567 Belgian
0.02485918 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02605153 English_Cornwall


Mixed mode:


Target: England_MBA:I19857
Distance: 1.6215% / 0.01621511
33.0 Welsh
19.4 Icelandic
14.2 Spanish_Soria
11.6 Basque_Spanish
11.0 Shetlandic
6.2 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
3.2 Darginian
1.4 Ket