What are the "German East" samples on G25 Vahaduo?

[rothaer]

GEDmatch stopped working, when I try to check kits in calculators, I get:

"AJAX error: Internal Server ErrorText Status: error Response Text: An internal server error occurred. Please try again later."

Why don't you just tell Stearsolina the GEDmatch number(s)?

You got the 4 new ones from me gladly, immediately and without any begging.

[Roy]

Are there East Germans who score Polish before West German on gedmatch?

[Roy]

Person you are discussing is German nationalist from Upper Silesia iirc. Not declared Pole, despite his results. This case reminds me of Italians from Istria.
Didn't large amount of Poles in upper Silesia germanised rather late and later even rejected to be part of Poland? I think he descend from such population.

There are probably genuine Germans in upper Silesia I guess, but from what I gather most of them are like him, recently Germanised Poles. Yes, feel free to share Polish upper Silesians.



Interesting. But I think lower Silesia had much more of genuine ethnic Germans than upper one, did it not?

There are Polish Silesians in Lubliniec town who asked what they're will tell you they're German (often as a way of bantering) but it is not true.

[Borealis]

Delete

[rothaer]

Are there East Germans who score Polish before West German on gedmatch?

Yes, for sure.

But: This is a typical LM Genetics similarity map for an average Eastern German. I can from my experience confirm that this is a pattern that often repeats for Eastern Germans. You can compare how close they are to Western German and Polish regions respectively. You can conclude that they in general - there are exceptions - are a little bit closer to Western Germans than to Poles. And they are closer to Hungarians than to Western Germans. And regularly even closer to Czechs.

[rothaer]

(...) But I think lower Silesia had much more of genuine ethnic Germans than upper one, did it not?

Yes, these two parts are not even comparable. Here's a map with the language conditions in 1905/1906. I marked the border of Upper and Lower Silesia with light green. Lower Silesia is essentially fully German (precautionary: Tomenable, we see the few Poles, don't worry ) and Upper Silesia is in vast majority Polish, but has some old and full German parts in the west.

[Peterski]

and Upper Silesia is in vast majority Polish, but has some old and full German parts in the west.

You didn't notice Kattowitz, Konigshutte, Beuthen etc. being majority German? Do you think they were Germanized Poles?

This is the so-called industrial district of Upper Silesia. It didn't exist in early 1800s, it was built during the 19th century.

In the Industrial District area (Beuthen, Tarnowitz, Kattowitz, Zabrze, Königshütte) it changed like this:

1831:

Total population ---- 44624
Polish --------------- 42324 (94.8%)
German ------------- 2300

1910:

Total population ---- 770040
Polish --------------- 449887 (58.4%)
German ------------- 327153

IMO this increase of Germans was caused mainly by immigration of Germans from other areas (also from Lower Silesia and beyond).

Here's a map with the language conditions in 1905/1906.

I prefer to look at older census data (which is available, even by county) because it correlates better with genetics.

I mean language conditions in early 1800s correlate better with genetics, than language conditions in early 1900s.

=====

Richard Böckh in "Der Deutschen Volkszahl und Sprachgebiet" (1869 book) says that in Upper Silesia there was a German-majority area with 233 settlements and 68,200 inhabitants (of whom 65,000 Germans) and a Polish-majority area with 2795 settlements and 782,000 inhabitants (of whom 136,500 Germans) - the number of German-majority settlements in this part was 286 with 107,400 inhabitants (of whom 70,200 Germans).

For Teschen Silesia he gives 163,300 inhabitants including 19,500 Germans.

In Lower Silesia according to Böckh there were 448 settlements with Polish majority with 91,200 inhabitants (80,000 Poles). In total there were 86,400 Poles in Lower Silesia. There was a Polish-majority region with 514 settlements and 103,200 inhabitants (24,100 Germans and 79,100 Poles):



=====

In 1813 Robert Semple mentioned the - still Polish-speaking at that time - areas near Leuthen, Gross Gohlau and Breslau:

[rothaer]

You didn't notice Kattowitz, Konigshutte, Beuthen etc. being majority German? Do you think they were Germanized Poles?

This is the so-called industrial district of Upper Silesia. It didn't exist in early 1800s, it was built during the 19th century.

In the Industrial District area (Beuthen, Tarnowitz, Kattowitz, Zabrze, Königshütte) it changed like this:

1831:

Total population ---- 44624
Polish --------------- 42324 (94.8%)
German ------------- 2300

1910:

Total population ---- 770040
Polish --------------- 449887 (58.4%)
German ------------- 327153

IMO this increase of Germans was caused mainly by immigration of Germans from other areas (also from Lower Silesia and beyond).



I prefer to look at older census data (which is available, even by county) because it correlates better with genetics.

I mean language conditions in early 1800s correlate better with genetics, than language conditions in early 1900s.

=====

Richard Böckh in "Der Deutschen Volkszahl und Sprachgebiet" (1869 book) says that in Upper Silesia there was a German-majority area with 233 settlements and 68,200 inhabitants (of whom 65,000 Germans) and a Polish-majority area with 2795 settlements and 782,000 inhabitants (of whom 136,500 Germans) - the number of German-majority settlements in this part was 286 with 107,400 inhabitants (of whom 70,200 Germans).

For Teschen Silesia he gives 163,300 inhabitants including 19,500 Germans.

In Lower Silesia according to Böckh there were 448 settlements with Polish majority with 91,200 inhabitants (80,000 Poles). In total there were 86,400 Poles in Lower Silesia. There was a Polish-majority region with 514 settlements and 103,200 inhabitants (24,100 Germans and 79,100 Poles):



=====

In 1813 Robert Semple mentioned the - still Polish-speaking at that time - areas near Leuthen, Gross Gohlau and Breslau:

Do you think this is relevant for the plot of what I stated, i. e. Lower Silesia being essentially German and Upper Silesia being in vast majority Polish?

[Peterski]

Do you think this is relevant for the plot of what I stated, i. e. Lower Silesia being essentially German and Upper Silesia being in vast majority Polish?

What I'm trying to say is that Germans from Upper Silesia probably do have genuine Germanic admixture, as long as they are Germans.

And I think you are trying to dismiss the double-digit % German population in Upper Silesia only to legitimize the "Schlonzak" nationalist's claim that he is a German from Upper Silesia (while in fact he is rather not, and genuine Germans from Upper Silesia will likely have much more Celto-Germanic results).

All Prussian censuses between 1819 and 1910 show that Germans were between 30% and 40% of the population of Upper Silesia.

Conversely, Regierungsbezirk Breslau had around 10% non-German minority in 1819, and if we go back to 1740 it was even more.

And I'm quite sure that non-Germans in Lower Silesia were genetically different than local Germans. And the same in Upper Silesia.

I mean, ignoring 30% or more of Germans in Upper Silesia and 10% or more of non-Germans in Middle Silesia is not a good idea.

[Peterski]

You promised to post two days ago, and gedmatch worked perfectly than.

I promised then but I didn't say that I was going to send the results immediately.

Here you have Lower Silesians from Brieg (Brzeg) area, family name is Deutscher:

German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg1,35.75,35.19,15.01,4.06,7.38,0,0.07,0,1.81,0.61,0.13,0,0
German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg2,34.56,36.20,12.94,6.92,6.54,0,0.63,0,0.34,0.85,0.33,0.43,0.26

Distance to:	German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg1
3.91765236	German_East
4.74558742	Czech
5.81134236	Slovenian
6.44719319	Slovak
6.82303452	Hungarian_North
6.87755771	Austrian

Distance to:	German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg2
2.18130695	Czech
3.68972899	German_East
4.36009174	Slovak
5.16104641	Slovenian
5.80972461	Hungarian_North
6.20225765	Sorb

And here is that German from Braniewo (Braunsberg) area that I also promised:

German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg1,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39,2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09

Distance to:	German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg1
4.39931813	Swedish_East-Svealand
6.30049998	Swedish
7.18829604	Swedish_Norrland
7.37330319	Swedish_West-Svealand
8.86276481	Swedish_Götaland
9.26909920	Norwegian_Southcentral

Will add some more when GEDmatch starts working again.