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Modern Welsh are Anglo-Saxon/Germanic admixed, the Schiffels study on Anglo-Saxons (which was pretty limited) even had them at 30% 'Anglo-Saxon' admixture vs Iron Age British. The sub-Roman Britons in much of Wales were also likely different to the Sub-Roman Britons in Southern & Central England, with less Celtic and/or Roman influence, and there maybe more later Norman influence in England. So it's right that English are not that much more Germanic than Welsh or Scots, the mistake is in thinking they adequately represent Celtic Britons though.
This is a model with modern populations as proxies for ancient components, with a focus on Germanic influence. I think it's alright.
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Instead of modelling against Welsh, a quick model of the updated English averages vs the old SW English average, which I think is academic Cornish samples, plus old Germanic and French averages.
Code:Danish,50.04,26.61,10.43,5.69,3.61,0.25,1.86,0.20,0.27,0.36,0.20,0.36,0.10 Danish_new,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52,0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17 Southwest_English,51.98,22.10,15.10,4.92,2.70,0.95,0.88,0.12,0.05,0.15,0.59,0.28,0.16 Southwest_French,42.35,13.57,30.54,1.36,8.85,1.65,0.33,0.05,0.62,0.64,0.01,0.02,0.00 French,42.60,17.48,19.50,4.96,10.33,2.82,1.08,0.15,0.27,0.38,0.23,0.07,0.12 North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24,0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17 North_Italian,31.68,11.93,25.76,6.90,19.58,2.78,0.56,0.34,0.13,0.05,0.21,0.04,0.03Replacing North German with FrenchCode:Target: English Distance: 0.6873% / 0.68733264 48.9 Southwest_English 29.5 North_German 15.3 Danish 6.3 Southwest_French Target: English_Midlands Distance: 0.6748% / 0.67483667 44.9 Southwest_English 27.4 North_German 20.1 Danish 7.6 Southwest_French Target: English_North Distance: 0.5031% / 0.50311339 57.0 Southwest_English 22.1 North_German 19.6 Danish 1.3 Southwest_French Target: English_Southeast Distance: 0.9342% / 0.93418359 36.3 North_German 35.3 Southwest_English 17.9 Danish 10.5 Southwest_French
Replacing the old Danish average with the more Northern updated oneCode:Target: English_Midlands Distance: 0.6507% / 0.65065241 47.4 Danish 38.2 Southwest_English 12.3 French 2.1 Southwest_French Target: English_North Distance: 0.6368% / 0.63680324 48.5 Southwest_English 45.9 Danish 5.6 French Target: English_Southeast Distance: 0.6701% / 0.67011052 50.0 Danish 29.5 Southwest_English 20.3 French 0.2 Southwest_French Target: English_Southwest Distance: 0.7471% / 0.74714250 48.6 Southwest_English 39.8 Danish 7.7 French 3.9 Southwest_French
With North Italian in the mixCode:Target: English Distance: 0.9565% / 0.95652951 43.3 Southwest_English 38.2 Danish 18.5 French Target: English_Midlands Distance: 0.9866% / 0.98664880 42.1 Southwest_English 38.3 Danish 19.6 French Target: English_North Distance: 0.9022% / 0.90215668 49.4 Southwest_English 39.9 Danish 10.7 French Target: English_Southeast Distance: 1.0205% / 1.02054836 43.0 Danish 31.0 Southwest_English 26.0 French Target: English_Southwest Distance: 0.8572% / 0.85717840 53.7 Southwest_English 30.1 Danish 16.2 French
Code:Target: English Distance: 0.8365% / 0.83651601 52.1 Southwest_English 39.2 Danish 8.7 North_Italian Target: English_Midlands Distance: 0.8195% / 0.81947455 51.5 Southwest_English 39.3 Danish 9.2 North_Italian Target: English_North Distance: 0.8493% / 0.84931417 54.4 Southwest_English 40.5 Danish 5.1 North_Italian Target: English_Southeast Distance: 0.8692% / 0.86918582 44.2 Danish 43.7 Southwest_English 12.1 North_Italian Target: English_Southwest Distance: 0.8572% / 0.85717840 53.7 Southwest_English 30.1 Danish 16.2 French
Last edited by J. Ketch; 12-30-2021 at 10:02 PM.
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Luckily Graham made a good Southwest Scottish average. Versus my earlier model:
Target: Scottish_Southwest
Distance: 0.5820% / 0.58202890 | ADC: 0.25x RC
72.2 Insular_Celtic
21.6 Germanic
3.3 Roman
2.9 Gaulish
If you look at the academic chart I posted above, it fits alright with the estimate for Scotland.
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Well I don't believe that the modern Welsh are 30% Germanic.
It doesn't make sense, Wales was isolated from England.
When we get more of Sub-Roman British DNA samples it will be clarified.
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Neither me, the figure in my calc and the Viking paper says about 26% rather.
It's probably more that Welsh are mixed with English, not so much 'Anglo-Saxons'/Germanics directly. Wales has been part of the Kingdom of England for over 700 years. Edward I built a Ring of Iron of fortified towns around Wales and settled them with English, and some of South Wales had been re-settled even before that I think, and in more modern Industrial times you have more English migration there, why so many Welsh have English surnames. Monmouthshire was nominally considered an English county until the 19th/20th century.
Last edited by J. Ketch; 12-31-2021 at 05:45 PM.
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About Flemish settlement in Wales (and England, Scotland):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig...ed%20to%20move.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...land-and-WalesThe Flemish colonists in Wales
Little England beyond Wales
The story behind this curious name for south Pembrokeshire involves ravished lands, economic migrants and mercenaries. This part of South Wales has seen many invaders come and go, Romans, Vikings and Normans, to name but a few. The Flemish people who arrived in the 12th Century, after the Norman Conquest, made a lasting and unique impression, still present today in the geographical divide across the county between the English and Welsh language.
On the Flemings
‘The inhabitants of this province derived their origin from Flanders, and were sent by King Henry I to inhabit these districts; a people brave and robust, ever most hostile to the Welsh; a people, I say, well versed in commerce and woollen manufactories; a people anxious to seek gain by sea or land, in defiance of fatigue and danger; a hardy race, equally fitted for the plough or the sword; a people brave and happy’. Geraldus Cambrensis, Itinerary Through Wales, 1188
One of the first arrivals of the Flemish to the British Isles was at the time of the Norman Conquest in 1066. In the 11th Century, Flanders was becoming perilously overpopulated and the Flemish, in the area now known as Belgium, were forced to move. Many moved to Germany, while others joined the Norman army, becoming an important element in their forces. The Norman kings rewarded those who fought with land in the conquered countries, giving them territory to live on, on the proviso that they defended it on behalf on the Norman invaders.
Before the Norman Invasion, Wales was subject to much infighting and was in no position to defend itself with a united front. William I installed his earls along the Welsh border at Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford, and they soon made progress into Wales. The Earl of Shrewsbury took his forces southwest, through Powys and Ceredigion, to Dyfed, where they established a castle at Pembroke.
Asylum Seekers
Flanders suffered greatly after a series of storms, in 1106. Samuel Lewis wrote, "During a tremendous storm on the coast of Flanders, the sand hills and embankments were in many places carried away, and the sea inundated a large tract of country."
This led a large number of Flemings to seek asylum in England, where they were welcomed by Henry I. They settled in various colonies across England, but soon, Samuel Lewis wrote, they "became odious to the native population", and Henry I moved the Flemings to the remote farming settlement in the cantref, a district of Rhôs, in south Pembrokeshire.
This systematic planting of Flemish settlers by Henry I, and later Henry II, had significant consequences for the people of south Pembrokeshire. Geography Professor, Harold Carter looks at the effects, "If you look at the 'Brut y Tywysogyon' - the Chronicle of the Welsh Princes - it records 'a certain folk of strange origins and customs occupy the whole cantref of Rhôs the estuary of the river Cleddau, and drove away all the inhabitants of the land'. In a way you could almost call it a process of ethnic cleansing."
Fortification
A line of over 50 castles and strongholds was built by the Normans and Flemish to protect south Pembrokeshire from the indigenous Welsh, who had been forced to move to the hilly country in the north of the county. The frontier of castles, known as the Landsker line - from the Norse word for divide - stretched from Newgale on the west coast to Amroth on the south east coast.
Two thirds of the fortifications were earthworks, with stone castles on or near navigable waters. The castle at Haverfordwest was built by the Flemish leader Tancred, soon after the Flemish arrived in 1108. Under its protection a settlement developed and the foundations were laid for a modern market town and commercial centre. The village of Wiston, five miles north-east of Haverfordwest, derived its name from another Fleming, Lord Wizo, who established a castle there, while Letterston was the settlement of the suitably nicknamed Letard Litelking ('Little King').
Tenby, on the south east coast of Pembrokeshire, grew in the 12th Century, when surrounding walls, a castle and a church were erected for the convenience of the Flemish colonists. The Flemish were experts in the woollen trade, and soon flourished in the area.
The Flemish occupied the more productive farming land in Pembrokeshire, south of the Landsker line, in the lowland areas. Here the land was fertile and warmed by the Gulf Stream, enjoying Indian summers, mild winters and early springs. Crops were ready two weeks before those in the north of the county, where the terrain was more mountainous.
The Landsker Line
Before the Norman Conquest, the majority of what is now Pembrokeshire would have been Welsh speaking. The Landsker line became a cultural and linguistic boundary which divided Pembrokeshire into two.
The influx of Flemings into south Pembrokeshire was so great that the Welsh language was eradicated and Flemish gradually gave way to English as the dominant language. However, it was a dialect spoken with a strong and distinctive accent and with a large vocabulary of words not commonly found elsewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little...d_beyond_Wales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_peopleNorman period
Early documentary evidence of Flemish immigration from England, rather than directly from Flanders, is given by contemporary William of Malmesbury (1095–1143), who wrote:
King Henry removed all the Flemings in England into Wales. England contained so many of these Flemings...that the country was overburthened with them. Wherefore with the two-fold intent of clearing the land, and repressing the brutal audacity of the foe, he settled them with all their property and goods in Ros, a Welsh province.
Prior to the 1600s, there were several substantial waves of Flemish migration to the United Kingdom. Today, numerous towns in England and Wales boast large or majority populations with Flemish ancestry as a result. The first wave fled to England in the early 12th Century, escaping damages from a storm across the coast of Flanders, where they were largely resettled in Pembrokeshire by Henry I. They changed the culture and accent in south Pembrokeshire to such an extent, that it led to the area receiving the name Little England beyond Wales. Haverfordwest[31] and Tenby consequently grew as important settlements for the Flemish settlers.[32]
In the 14th Century, encouraged by King Edward III and perhaps in part due to his marriage to Philippa of Hainault, another wave of migration to England occurred when skilled cloth weavers from Flanders were granted permission to settle there and contribute to the then booming cloth and woollen industries.[33] These migrants particularly settled in the growing Lancashire and Yorkshire textile towns of Manchester,[34] Bolton,[35] Blackburn,[36] Liversedge,[37] Bury,[38] Halifax[39][40] and Wakefield.[41]
Demand for Flemish weavers in England occurred again in both the 15th and 16th Centuries, but this time particularly focused on towns close to the coastline of East Anglia and South East England. Many from this generation of weavers went to Colchester, Sandwich[42] and Braintree.[43] In 1582, it was estimated that there could have been around 1600 Flemish in Sandwich, today almost half of its total population.[44] London, Norwich and North Walsham, however, were the most popular destinations, and the nickname for Norwich City F.C. fans, Canaries, is derived from the fact that many of the Norfolk weavers kept pet canaries.[45][46] The town of Whitefield, near Bury, also claims to owe its name to Flemish cloth weavers that settled in the area during this era, who would lay their cloths out in the sun to bleach them.[47]
Last edited by J. Ketch; 12-31-2021 at 07:13 PM.
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