What are the "German East" samples on G25 Vahaduo?

[Jana]

Posting after regional averages were released? You can go f***k yourself, your "help" isn't needed. Bye.

[Peterski]

You didn't release averages for Lower Silesia & East Prussia (except fringe areas Memelland & Masuria, both of which were not even inhabited by ethnic Germans).

[Peterski]

How about adding also German_Jewish population average ???

These are the same samples that were used in Global25 to make Ashkenazi_Germany population:

(DE_DE are fully from Germany; AT_DE is half Austria half Germany)

Ashk_DE_DE_1,13.60,4.84,18.39,11.37,39.60,8.46,0,1.03,0,0,1.21,1.51,0
Ashk_DE_DE_10,19.13,4.96,18.59,7.48,40.41,5.07,0,1.63,0.39,0.40,0.65,1.20,0.09
Ashk_DE_DE_11,14.04,4.99,20.93,7.86,40.54,7.73,0,0.89,0.86,0.21,1.00,0.53,0.43
Ashk_DE_DE_2,18.24,6.97,16.23,9.17,39.91,6.66,0.43,0,0.65,0.39,0,0,1.34
Ashk_DE_DE_3,13.00,7.12,19.95,10.65,39.96,6.52,0.41,0.02,0,0,0.43,0.65,1.28
Ashk_DE_DE_4,15.56,5.59,18.75,10.46,40.64,5.65,1.55,0,0,0,0.79,1.01,0
Ashk_DE_DE_5,15.90,7.03,19.87,10.14,36.50,6.28,0,1.40,0.33,0.89,0,1.04,0.62
Ashk_DE_DE_6,15.94,4.42,20.12,11.93,37.59,5.59,0,0.56,0,0.86,0.58,0.60,1.79
Ashk_DE_DE_7,19.85,4.13,19.97,6.60,39.65,6.78,0,0.82,0,0.49,0,1.14,0.56
Ashk_DE_DE_8,13.12,8.62,20.14,9.10,39.80,5.52,0.24,1.35,0,0.60,0.03,0.75,0.73
Ashk_DE_DE_9,14.46,5.18,19.00,13.05,38.04,5.74,1.70,1.11,0.19,0,0.03,1.47,0.04
Ashk_AT_DE_1,17.31,7.17,16.96,9.42,37.24,6.23,0.92,0,1.48,0.84,0.08,0.79,1.55

[Borealis]

I promised then but I didn't say that I was going to send the results immediately.

Here you have Lower Silesians from Brieg (Brzeg) area, family name is Deutscher:

German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg1,35.75,35.19,15.01,4.06,7.38,0,0.07,0,1.81,0.61,0.13,0,0
German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg2,34.56,36.20,12.94,6.92,6.54,0,0.63,0,0.34,0.85,0.33,0.43,0.26

Distance to:	German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg1
3.91765236	German_East
4.74558742	Czech
5.81134236	Slovenian
6.44719319	Slovak
6.82303452	Hungarian_North
6.87755771	Austrian

Distance to:	German_Lower_Silesia_Brieg2
2.18130695	Czech
3.68972899	German_East
4.36009174	Slovak
5.16104641	Slovenian
5.80972461	Hungarian_North
6.20225765	Sorb

And here is that German from Braniewo (Braunsberg) area that I also promised:

German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg1,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39,2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09

Distance to:	German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg1
4.39931813	Swedish_East-Svealand
6.30049998	Swedish
7.18829604	Swedish_Norrland
7.37330319	Swedish_West-Svealand
8.86276481	Swedish_Götaland
9.26909920	Norwegian_Southcentral

Will add some more when GEDmatch starts working again.

Was not expecting the East Prussian to score like a Swede.

[Peterski]

Was not expecting the East Prussian to score like a Swede.

That's because there is no Mecklenburg population in the datasheet, and in fact he is more similar to Mecklenburg than to Sweden.

But East Prussians are very diverse, many are way more Balto-Slavic than this one, this one is about 2/3 Germanic in Mixed Mode.

[rothaer]

Was not expecting the East Prussian to score like a Swede.

It isn't real and would also not happen in K36. It's a weakness of all Eurogenes caluclators up to G25 inclusive to not being able to distinguish between a Germanic-Slavic and a Germanic-Finnic composition. Hence that Swedish and SW Finnish proximity for Eastern Germans.

[Borealis]

It isn't real and would also not happen in K36. It's a weakness of alle Eurogenes caluclators up to G25 inclusive to not being able to distinguish between a Germanic-Slavic and a Germanic-Finnic composition. Hence that Swedish and SW Finnish proximity for Eastern Germans.

G25 seems to be good at it. Too good, I would argue. Slavs are shown to have such a massive drift that they cannot even be modeled without proto-Slavic samples(Baltic_BA/IA, Avar Szolad, and CZE Early Slav).

[Peterski]

It isn't real and would also not happen in K36. It's a weakness of alle Eurogenes caluclators up to G25 inclusive to not being able to distinguish between a Germanic-Slavic and a Germanic-Finnic composition. Hence that Swedish and SW Finnish proximity for Eastern Germans.

Actually there was not just Finnic, but also a lot of Balto-Slavic presence in Viking Age Sweden.

I'm not sure about mainland Sweden, but look at this example of Balto-Slavs from Gotland:

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK64
0.03519805 Polish
0.03850389 Czech
0.03856017 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03899479 Slovakian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK60
0.03014564 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03089089 Lithuanian_VA
0.03133594 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03247931 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK53
0.02753272 Polish
0.03096598 Ukrainian
0.03218924 Russian_Voronez
0.03237966 Russian_Smolensk

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK51
0.03070161 Estonian
0.03139093 Polish_Kashubian
0.03673968 Finnish
0.03830703 Belarusian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK478
0.02797097 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03181555 Latvian
0.03454153 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03537123 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK476
0.03281253 Moldovan
0.03419744 Croatian
0.03579350 Serbian
0.03687689 Bosnian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK475
0.02406636 Lithuanian_SZ
0.02548866 Latvian
0.02705247 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02717623 Lithuanian_PZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK474
0.03028804 Lithuanian_PA
0.03117025 Lithuanian_VA
0.03326560 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03378389 Ukrainian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK473
0.02146122 Polish
0.02743958 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02778883 German_East
0.02804637 Ukrainian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK472
0.03851063 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04045562 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04079312 Latvian
0.04453363 Lithuanian_SZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK471
0.02987087 Lithuanian_RA
0.03059118 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03121988 Latvian
0.03173119 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK464
0.04347453 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04414633 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04711376 Polish_Kashubian
0.04840540 Lithuanian_PA

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK463
0.03739710 Lithuanian_RA
0.03894972 Latvian
0.03953063 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04143863 Lithuanian_VA

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK462
0.05376256 Lithuanian_PZ
0.05457480 Estonian
0.05541074 Polish_Kashubian
0.05678391 Russian_Kaluga

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK461
0.03307468 Estonian
0.03679479 Russian_Pskov
0.04019018 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04024124 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK459
0.04158279 Lithuanian_RA
0.04375372 Lithuanian_PA
0.04504947 Belarusian
0.04529239 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK458
0.02819980 Latvian
0.02978619 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03103813 Lithuanian_RA
0.03351046 Lithuanian_PZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK457
0.03211285 Russian_Tver
0.03329188 Russian_Ryazan
0.03514663 Russian_Kursk
0.03675244 Russian_Orel

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK454
0.03142527 Moldovan_o
0.03172399 Slovakian
0.03480394 Ukrainian
0.03690493 Polish

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK453
0.04460731 Polish
0.04479464 Russian_Voronez
0.04527195 Ukrainian
0.04541590 Russian_Smolensk

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK452
0.02569859 Estonian
0.03104122 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03105114 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03136099 Lithuanian_SZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK440
0.04580099 Belarusian
0.04718367 Russian_Smolensk
0.04745409 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04766008 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK439
0.04240825 Latvian
0.04427075 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04599133 Lithuanian_SZ
0.05200364 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK438
0.03157301 Lithuanian_PA
0.03174152 Lithuanian_VA
0.03330354 Russian_Pskov
0.03349253 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK434
0.03969500 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04264589 Latvian
0.04479740 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04577161 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK432
0.03581092 Latvian
0.03782218 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03788210 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04423039 Lithuanian_VZ

After averaging their results and checking with K36, they definitely do not look like Finns, but like Balto-Slavs:





So Swedes most likely have Balto-Slavic admixture - just like East Germans. Of course, Swedes have Finnic too.

[Peterski]

^^^
Out of 51 samples from Gotland from that Viking Age study, as many as 30 - or 60% - are Balto-Slavs (and one Finn).

Only 11 (or 20%) have native Scandinavian results.

The remaining 20% also look foreign, but Western (British Islands, Ireland, Frankish Empire - French, German, Dutch).

[Borealis]

Actually there was not just Finnic, but also a lot of Balto-Slavic presence in Viking Age Sweden.

I'm not sure about mainland Sweden, but look at this example of Balto-Slavs from Gotland:

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK64
0.03519805 Polish
0.03850389 Czech
0.03856017 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03899479 Slovakian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK60
0.03014564 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03089089 Lithuanian_VA
0.03133594 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03247931 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK53
0.02753272 Polish
0.03096598 Ukrainian
0.03218924 Russian_Voronez
0.03237966 Russian_Smolensk

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK51
0.03070161 Estonian
0.03139093 Polish_Kashubian
0.03673968 Finnish
0.03830703 Belarusian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK478
0.02797097 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03181555 Latvian
0.03454153 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03537123 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK476
0.03281253 Moldovan
0.03419744 Croatian
0.03579350 Serbian
0.03687689 Bosnian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK475
0.02406636 Lithuanian_SZ
0.02548866 Latvian
0.02705247 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02717623 Lithuanian_PZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK474
0.03028804 Lithuanian_PA
0.03117025 Lithuanian_VA
0.03326560 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03378389 Ukrainian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK473
0.02146122 Polish
0.02743958 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02778883 German_East
0.02804637 Ukrainian

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK472
0.03851063 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04045562 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04079312 Latvian
0.04453363 Lithuanian_SZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK471
0.02987087 Lithuanian_RA
0.03059118 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03121988 Latvian
0.03173119 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK464
0.04347453 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04414633 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04711376 Polish_Kashubian
0.04840540 Lithuanian_PA

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK463
0.03739710 Lithuanian_RA
0.03894972 Latvian
0.03953063 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04143863 Lithuanian_VA

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK462
0.05376256 Lithuanian_PZ
0.05457480 Estonian
0.05541074 Polish_Kashubian
0.05678391 Russian_Kaluga

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK461
0.03307468 Estonian
0.03679479 Russian_Pskov
0.04019018 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04024124 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK459
0.04158279 Lithuanian_RA
0.04375372 Lithuanian_PA
0.04504947 Belarusian
0.04529239 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK458
0.02819980 Latvian
0.02978619 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03103813 Lithuanian_RA
0.03351046 Lithuanian_PZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK457
0.03211285 Russian_Tver
0.03329188 Russian_Ryazan
0.03514663 Russian_Kursk
0.03675244 Russian_Orel

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK454
0.03142527 Moldovan_o
0.03172399 Slovakian
0.03480394 Ukrainian
0.03690493 Polish

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK453
0.04460731 Polish
0.04479464 Russian_Voronez
0.04527195 Ukrainian
0.04541590 Russian_Smolensk

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK452
0.02569859 Estonian
0.03104122 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03105114 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03136099 Lithuanian_SZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK440
0.04580099 Belarusian
0.04718367 Russian_Smolensk
0.04745409 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04766008 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK439
0.04240825 Latvian
0.04427075 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04599133 Lithuanian_SZ
0.05200364 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK438
0.03157301 Lithuanian_PA
0.03174152 Lithuanian_VA
0.03330354 Russian_Pskov
0.03349253 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK434
0.03969500 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04264589 Latvian
0.04479740 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04577161 Lithuanian_VZ

Distance to: Gotland_VA:VK432
0.03581092 Latvian
0.03782218 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03788210 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04423039 Lithuanian_VZ

After averaging their results and checking with K36, they definitely do not look like Finns, but like Balto-Slavs:





So Swedes most likely have Balto-Slavic admixture - just like East Germans. Of course, Swedes have Finnic too.

This only really seems to apply to Gotland. The rest of the Viking Age Nordic samples are very much Nordic:

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Uppsala_VA
0.02715608 Swedish
0.03653525 Norwegian
0.03763795 Icelandic
0.03771131 Danish
0.04182327 Finnish_Southeast
0.04198361 Czech
0.04406675 Slovakian
0.04409086 Dutch
0.04426331 Polish
0.04582919 German_East
0.04672202 Finnish_Southwest
0.04738060 Orcadian
0.04742998 Polish_Kashubian
0.04777831 Shetlandic
0.04823395 Estonian
0.04835566 Scottish
0.04881149 Ingrian
0.04900110 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04902315 Finnish_Central
0.04921158 Cossack_Kuban
0.04937923 German
0.04953087 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04956288 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04979933 Irish
0.05037389 Russian_Kursk

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.00900435 Danish
0.01363384 Dutch
0.01378218 Swedish
0.01541158 Icelandic
0.01617079 Norwegian
0.01702118 Orcadian
0.01795655 Scottish
0.01945441 Welsh
0.01979261 English
0.02087655 Shetlandic
0.02146894 Irish
0.02160133 German
0.02216815 English_Cornwall
0.02571774 French_Brittany
0.02586344 Afrikaner
0.02972477 German_East
0.03314527 Czech
0.03546913 Austrian
0.03554174 Belgian
0.03763192 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03884033 French_Nord
0.03915188 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03957603 Hungarian
0.04114909 French_Alsace
0.04389674 French_Paris

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.01498481 Dutch
0.01794920 Danish
0.01888080 Afrikaner
0.01910085 German
0.02211892 Welsh
0.02239262 Orcadian
0.02242175 Norwegian
0.02248672 Swedish
0.02271911 Scottish
0.02351482 English
0.02471767 Icelandic
0.02516515 English_Cornwall
0.02557096 Shetlandic
0.02596912 French_Brittany
0.02685475 Irish
0.03064552 Austrian
0.03093509 German_East
0.03121795 Belgian
0.03235349 Czech
0.03338817 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03433694 French_Nord
0.03511631 Hungarian
0.03617969 French_Alsace
0.03624532 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03890868 French_Paris

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
0.02498871 Swedish
0.02828613 Icelandic
0.02973859 Danish
0.03218154 Norwegian
0.03529041 Dutch
0.03709417 Orcadian
0.03843169 Scottish
0.03964023 Shetlandic
0.04069814 Irish
0.04111677 English
0.04269761 English_Cornwall
0.04303719 Welsh
0.04325148 German_East
0.04541471 German
0.04632561 Czech
0.04741406 Afrikaner
0.04963020 French_Brittany
0.05118246 Finnish_Southwest
0.05206373 Polish_Kashubian
0.05298672 Polish
0.05432953 Slovakian
0.05620371 Hungarian
0.05676929 Austrian
0.05947701 Finnish_Central
0.05955560 Ukrainian_Rivne

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Oland_EVA
0.03718800 Danish
0.03818628 Shetlandic
0.03944835 Norwegian
0.03957069 Swedish
0.03991571 Dutch
0.04114010 Icelandic
0.04321065 German
0.04368346 Orcadian
0.04383638 Scottish
0.04412138 Welsh
0.04424316 Czech
0.04508777 Afrikaner
0.04513114 German_East
0.04517851 Irish
0.04556670 English
0.04692238 English_Cornwall
0.04987935 Slovakian
0.05055054 French_Brittany
0.05101705 Hungarian
0.05102914 Austrian
0.05482485 Belgian
0.05623093 Slovenian
0.05630161 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05673308 Polish
0.05720175 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
0.02288673 Swedish
0.02552895 Danish
0.02570996 Icelandic
0.02727582 Norwegian
0.02892590 Orcadian
0.02967525 Dutch
0.03062774 Shetlandic
0.03076172 Scottish
0.03257302 Irish
0.03397988 English
0.03448642 Welsh
0.03712804 English_Cornwall
0.03748793 German
0.03840906 German_East
0.03896577 Afrikaner
0.04042975 French_Brittany
0.04151929 Czech
0.04839498 Austrian
0.04966717 Hungarian
0.04999893 Belgian
0.05060405 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05098998 Slovakian
0.05264820 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05307986 Polish
0.05325268 French_Nord

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Karda_VA
0.01592960 Afrikaner
0.02209437 French_Brittany
0.02242473 Belgian
0.02466989 French_Nord
0.02473155 Welsh
0.02540842 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02580752 Dutch
0.02601096 English_Cornwall
0.02643588 English
0.02723413 Orcadian
0.02739406 Scottish
0.02762535 German
0.02767158 French_Paris
0.02839287 French_Alsace
0.02950556 Irish
0.02990695 Swiss_German
0.03325754 Danish
0.03370193 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03477380 Shetlandic
0.03554739 Austrian
0.03677568 French_Occitanie
0.03741284 Icelandic
0.03760415 Norwegian
0.04009164 French_Auvergne
0.04240466 Swedish

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA_o
0.02290904 Vepsian
0.02355412 Karelian
0.02364603 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.02435574 Russian_Pinega
0.02942798 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.02945826 Finnish_North
0.03374760 Finnish_East
0.03425357 Finnish_Central
0.03615780 Ingrian
0.03917738 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.03934603 Russian_Kostroma
0.04059544 Erzya
0.04573618 Finnish_Southeast
0.04688209 Finnish_Southwest
0.04757929 Moksha
0.05480056 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05657289 Komi
0.05793822 Russian_Tver
0.05846821 Cossack_Kuban
0.06033957 Estonian
0.06206212 Tatar_Mishar
0.06336956 Russian_Ryazan
0.06353968 Saami_Kola
0.06617621 Russian_Kursk
0.06699825 Russian_Kaluga

Distance to: VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
0.02166760 Polish
0.02717755 Czech
0.02851734 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02969106 Polish_Kashubian
0.03013113 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03056353 German_East
0.03083324 Swedish
0.03105803 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03144092 Slovakian
0.03183894 Russian_Smolensk
0.03199430 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03206600 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03208216 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03222839 Russian_Voronez
0.03246961 Belarusian
0.03257304 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03322796 Russian_Kursk
0.03360035 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03378954 Russian_Orel
0.03456915 Lithuanian_PA
0.03501411 Russian_Kaluga
0.03570678 Russian_Belgorod
0.03650351 Russian_Pskov
0.03728999 Russian_Ryazan
0.03822636 Estonian