Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

[Ion Basescul]

Imagine you are Lucas looking for latest averages among this mess.

[rothaer]

It is interesting that Beeskow sample has large distance of huge 23.579 from general German average.
Everyone has right to identify as whatever he wants, but Beeskow sample is not autosomal ethnic German by any scientific logic.

German ethnicity is not defined by genetics, so there is nothing like an "autosomal ethnic German". There are respective overlaps with neighboring populations.
All this doesn't mean that genetics are irrelevant. The gentic spread will show the genetic borders of Germans. And this limits will be found out by testing ethnic Germans. But you can not go the other way around and deny the undisputed ethnicity of Germans inmidst of German people area that have been regarded Germans by all people involved for at least 200 years because of a particular genetic result. It's still not an American company (like AncestryDNA, 23andMe, FTDNA) that defines what is genetically within the frame of Germans. The genetic conditions of the ethnic German people do.

[Jana]

since German-Austrian averages we published few days ago haven't been yet added to Vahaduo, now posting newer updated version (we got more kits in these last few days), plus Sorbs found by Peterska:

Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.23,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0.87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1.02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07 
Austrian_Lower_Austria,37.42,24.75,17.87,8.14,7.73,1.585,0.97,0.24,0.425,0.225,0.64,0,0
Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria,38.78,27.33,14.66,6.69,9.37,1.49,0.58,0.18,0.23,0.31,0.35,0.03,0.00
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.79,0.31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0.20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07 
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16,0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09 
German_Bavaria_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68,0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08 
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.57,26.56,14.43,6.52,9.59,0.26,1.44,0.05,0.27,0.75,0.44,0.09,0.04
German_Bavaria_Proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00 
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46 
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.84,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Brandenburg_Outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14.49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3 
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0.3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0 
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39,2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09 
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57,3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68 
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3.88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34 
German_Farther_Pomerania,39.63,38.09,9.56,4.92,3.95,1.05,1.04,0.29,0.03,0.27,0.29,0.63,0.25
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.22,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.32,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0 
German_Hither_Pomerania,43.825,32.395,11.415,5.735,3.815,0.35,0.545,0.72,0.44,0.475,0.05,0.24,0
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.55,27.97,10.58,6.26,2.15,0.25,1.64,0.39,0.16,0.19,0.54,0.32,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3.82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45 
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23 
German_Mecklenburg_Center/East,42.39,32.89,11.32,5.1,5.27,0.54,0.89,0,0,1.13,0,0,0.47
German_Mecklenburg_West,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00 
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0.38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31 
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1.78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6 
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1.49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0 
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.62,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13 
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1.03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09 
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.27,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12 
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.27,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24 
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.50,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27 
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27,0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7.95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15 
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9.55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19,1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0,0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0 
German_West_Prussia,36.87,38.43,11.15,5.97,4.70,0.16,0.84,0.00,0.72,0.40,0.33,0.13,0.29
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39 
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67,0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz,33.90,40.96,10.12,4.85,6.59,0.63,1.28,0.44,0.29,0.64,0.10,0.11,0.10

so please add these, not older ones.

[rothaer]

My point was that we don't even know if they are Sorbs or Germans according to your definition. In academic datasets samples are often labelled based on self-identification. (...)
So maybe among these Kamenz Sorbs there are people who said "I'm a Sorb from village XYZ located just west of Kamenz, but Sorbian culture in my village and surrounding villages was suppressed 200 years ago". Just like the Beeskow sample.
Kamenz samples might be Germans according to your criteria. We just don't know. (...)

This is extremely far fetched. As you can see on the map in Kamenz there are people that are identified by themselves and by others (including me, ofc) as Sorbs because of their culture, their language and their consciousness ever since. There is no reasonable cause to assume that in that academic paper stating Sorbs anyone else then such individuals from that group were tested and published as Sorbs. If you find some indications in that paper that this is not the case, it could be reviewed.

Also an ethnic German spouse of a Sorb can be counted as a Sorb in many cases.

That could happen when whatever ethnic individual around the world is tested. Why do you make a huge issue out of that when it is about Sorbs and not Serbs, Croats, Wielkopolska Poles and Belgorod Ukrainians? Your whole approach has double standards. It's very transparent that you just try to justify your idiosyncratic labeling of the Beeskow woman and now try to question (if not delegitimate) the actual tested Sorbs with all that comes in your mind. This is childish.

[Peterski]

there could today even be more Germans than Sorbs scoring like that

Yeah it seems that (going north-south) from Frankfurt/Oder to Görlitz (or even to Zittau) there are predominantly Slavs living on both sides of the border!

In genetic terms.

Roughly this area (which has over 1 million inhabitants - 1,221,260 according to German Wikipedia):

[MoroLP]

Imagine you are Lucas looking for latest averages among this mess.

As far as I know, he has at least new Bosniak, Croatian and German-Austrian. The interesting Sorbian discussion should be moved or copied to a related thread. So it will be easier to keep track and keep records there.

[Dušan]

German ethnicity is not defined by genetics, so there is nothing like an "autosomal ethnic German". There are respective overlaps with neighboring populations.
All this doesn't mean that genetics are irrelevant. The gentic spread will show the genetic borders of Germans. And this limits will be found out by testing ethnic Germans. But you can not go the other way around and deny the undisputed ethnicity of Germans inmidst of German people area that have been regarded Germans by all people involved for at least 200 years because of a particular genetic result. It's still not an American company (like AncestryDNA, 23andMe, FTDNA) that defines what is genetically within the frame of Germans. The genetic conditions of the ethnic German people do.

According to your logic, if ethnicity is only a language category, not genetic, then all these recently settled Eastern Europeans and non-Europeans in Germany, ie their descendants, although if they completely keep to themselves, will be considered ethnic Germans in 200 years.
Speaking German and live in Germany is enough.

[rothaer]

According to your logic, if ethnicity is only a language category, not genetic, then all these recently settled Eastern Europeans and non-Europeans in Germany, ie their descendants, although if they completely keep to themselves, will be considered ethnic Germans in 200 years.
Speaking German and live in Germany is enough.

First, you will have seen that I expressly wrote that language is not all.

Second, you will indeed for every ethnicity have to give an approximate year also. What was German in 1000 AD is different to what was German in 1500 AD and this is different to what is German in 1950 AD. Let's express it with an approximate year in brackets. There will also be a huge difference between Slavic (600) and Slavic (1950), especially in Southeast Europe. Or between Hungarian (950) and Hungarian (1950).

Third, everyone will indentify with his own people (ethnicity). You likey are a Serb (1950) and I'm a German (1950) (Which is basically the same as a Serb (2022) and an ethnic German (2022).) In particular I'm not a German (1000). I can feel sad for Germans (1000), but that's not me and not my people that I do refer to and that I want to continue existing (Germans (1950)).

To be observant to differences like this does in no way weaken the own position. You and me will not live notably longer than 100 years. We will die anyway. But which mental healthy living being would because of that conclude that it's not worth to do all what's possible to defend one's own life and instead agree to being killed by someone coming around the corner?

Nobody, ofc. And in the same manner we all in the world will try to get our respective people to live and not to die. And some manage for a very long period of time, for thousands of years, and there is also no necessity to the life of a certain people to end at all. Icelanders (1000) are likey the same as Icelanders (1950), Japanese (-1000) are likely the same as Japanese (1950) and Levantines (-3000) are abt. the same as Levantines (1950) etc.

Speaking German and live in Germany is not enogh for being a German (1950).

If there would be a notable change - this is not yet clear at all - till the year of 2200, then would Germans (1950) not be the same as Germans (2200). Then would Germans (1950) have been ethnocided. Germans (2200), if they would be something else (again, this is not at all said and maybe not even likely), the Germans (2200) would be an ultimate horror. They must be prevented with all power of self-preservation that we do have, so my people (Germans (1950 = 1900 = 1800...) must not die but can go on living.

In this context one must make the effort to be clear with terms. A lot of potential confusions will then disslove. Also considerations will then be clearer.

[Leto]

First, you will have seen that I expressly wrote that language is not all.

Second, you will indeed for every ethnicity have to give an approximate year also. What was German in 1000 AD is different to what was German in 1500 AD and this is different to what is German in 1950 AD. Let's express it with an approximate year in brackets. There will also be a huge difference between Slavic (600) and Slavic (1950), especially in Southeast Europe. Or between Hungarian (950) and Hungarian (1950).

Third, everyone will indentify with his own people (ethnicity). You likey are a Serb (1950) and I'm a German (1950) (Which is basically the same as a Serb (2022) and an ethnic German (2022).) In particular I'm not a German (1000). I can feel sad for Germans (1000), but that's not me and not my people that I do refer to and that I want to continue existing (Germans (1950)).

To be observant to differences like this does in no way weaken the own position. You and me will not live notably longer than 100 years. We will die anyway. But which mental healthy living being would because of that conclude that it's not worth to do all what's possible to defend one's own life and instead agree to being killed by someone coming around the corner?

Nobody, ofc. And in the same manner we all in the world will try to get our respective people to live and not to die. And some manage for a very long period of time, for thousands of years, and there is also no necessity to the life of a certain people to end at all. Icelanders (1000) are likey the same as Icelanders (1950), Japanese (-1000) are likely the same as Japanese (1950) and Levantines (-3000) are abt. the same as Levantines (1950) etc.

Speaking German and live in Germany is not enogh for being a German (1950).

If there would be a notable change - this is not yet clear at all - till the year of 2200, then would Germans (1950) not be the same as Germans (2200). Then would Germans (1950) have been ethnocided. Germans (2200), if they would be something else (again, this is not at all said and maybe not even likely), the Germans (2200) would be an ultimate horror. They must be prevented with all power of self-preservation that we do have, so my people (Germans (1950 = 1900 = 1800...) must not die but can go on living.

In this context one must make the effort to be clear with terms. A lot of potential confusions will then disslove. Also considerations will then be clearer.

Here are my two cents. Leaving obvious non-whites aside (and that includes Turkey for the most part), I'd say the Germans of 2050 will be even more Eastern (even Southeastern perhaps) than a hundred years before. Europeans in Germany usually do not cause problems and adopt the German language in the second generation. Their grandkids will likely identify as German. 2.5 million Aussiedler won't disappear without a trace, that is just one example. Add to that the "Ostblock", Yugoslavian, ex-USSR, Greek, Italian folks.

[Peterski]

(...)

Japanese -1000 did not even exist because at that time Japan was inhabited by hunter-gatherers (Jomon/Ainu folks).

Only the first groups of farmers landed on northern Kyushu (coming from Korea) perhaps around that time, or later.