Brand new genetic study on the origins of Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors

[Hektor12]

According to turkologist... i have no question. So do you prefer a foreign etymology over a native etymology? lol

Turkologist doesnt mean Turkish, they are academic people. Count the names in that quote= V.N. Tatischev, I.G. Dobrodomov, E.V. Hawks.

[Dunai]

Negligible how? Because every Turkic group is going to cluster with non-Turkics, too (Uyghur with Sinics, Turks of Anatolia with Kurds, etc). Negligible means that it is something that is dismissable with a handwave. I don't think that even 5% is something negligible when talking about genetic connections. Funny again how it's always the Turkic-Eurasian genetics that show up rather than Ugric genetic markers for people posting results, hmm?

Culturally, nobody is like their ancestors 1000 years ago. Nobody. This is a non-starter of a point that is irrelevant to what I do in my life. I like to do similar things as homage and because it's fun or because it's a remnant of something that has been passed down over a long time and it's fun to keep the practice alive, not because I think there's going to be some literal "great awakening" where everyone goes around talking about how cool it is to be a child of the steppes 24/7. I live in the modern world, too. As I have said on the forum and will say again, I don't care if I am the last Turkic Hungarian alive. It's something that not all Hungarians need to even take up if they don't want to, but it shouldn't be something so marginalized or ignored, especially since our eastern family reaches out to us with love and kindness.

Now, are you going to address the questions I asked you in post 114 and how you said Hungarians have a fascination with dictators as the only connection to Central Asians? Because I think Hungarian members would like to hear more of your thoughts about such things. I know I certainly would.

Why should I repeat the obvious: I already stated numerous times on this forum that I don't particularly have high opinion on Hungarians, especially since they are so immune to widespread corruption and repeatedly offer great majority with their votes, to a person who is one of the worst and most rotten leaders in the history of this country. Do you really wonder why a thinking person would hardly feel any patriotism in times like these.

[Turul Karom]

The hungarian language is uralic, so of course we consider the uralic haplos as "original core". I hope you understand it. N or R doesn't matter because all have been found in the pre-ugric or uralic urheimat. You can read about it in the "Honfoglalók" rubicon historical magazine. I didn't say all N or R haplo are uralic, but they existed among uralics in the pre-uralic times, so these can be uralic or not uralic too, we don't know.

Yet the conqueror class was bilingual with Y-DNA of R1a, not N. This is somehow going to be a goal scored then for a non-Turkic part of the core? The problem is that N is something that was argued by Dunai as evidence for a Mansi core, yet the Turkic group Avars are mostly N. Therefore, Avar=Mansi? I am showing him the hypocrisy of his own logic.

The presence of I2 means the nomad hungarians had very close relationship with east european slavs. R1 is not necessarily turkic but it can be iranic, or slavic or even pre-ugric too, becase this haplo existed among them. How do you know that this haplo must originated from only turkic peoples? This is just your wish. Nomad magyars had closely relationship with slavs, germanics or alans too, not only with turks. But basically the whole east european steppe region was a big mix of various tribes and peoples.

I never said that R1 is exclusively Turkic, but that it is dominant amongst many groups that are called Turkic today. Unlike Dunai, whose favorite debate tactic is to lecture and ignore questions, you sometimes put words in my mouth or extrapolate points that I don't make. If it is unintentional, then I forgive you. I consider all haplos found in Conqueror graves as Hungarians, period, regardless of autosomal admix. If we are talking about the tribes that went into making Hungarians pre-Etelköz, that is a different conversation.

We have no idea who were the avars exactly, their language is also unknown. We know only their names which were mostly turkic, but nomad magyar names were also turkic and they were uralic speakers, so it means nothing. The haplogroup N is originally siberian not steppe haplo, so its confirms the siberian origin of conquerors. At this time before the russification there were much more uralic people in East Europe, it's very possible that avars were partly uralic. This is the description of N1a1a haplo:

"The subclade N-M178[Phylogenetics 3] is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. N-M178* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians, Lithuanians & 35% among Estonians (Derenko 2007 and Lappalainen 2008).
Miroslava Derenko and her colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia and spread into Northern Europe. Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region)(Derenko 2007)."

Yet people call Avars Turks today. You know you will not casually go online or into a textbook and find the consensus as "we don't know" but rather that they lean Turkic, with some just stating it outright. Yet, somehow, calling Hungarians even as Uralo-Altaic is a step too far? What I would like to point out is that Uralo-Altatic would be an acceptable description, but yet that "Altaic" part needs to be cut off entirely for some reason? Again, I am not even talking just about language (even though conquerors were bilingual), but in light of genetic studies, cultural studies of old Hungarians, and Tengrist faith as well as origins of many tribes that became part of the Hungarian ethnogenesis, this Uralo-Altaic is still something too far but Finno-Ugric is now replaced with Uralic? That, my friend, is an agenda.

Don't make me laugh, most hungarians have no any turkic identity (neither uralic btw), they consider themselves just hungarians nothing else. Totally irrelevant that nomad magyars and turkics had same culture 1300 years ago, nobody cares in the 21. century, 90% of hungarians do not care abpout it, but they have european identity and they feel themselves closest to other central europeans i mean culture, history and everything. An average hungarian thinks these countries like Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc are poor shitholes. The reputation of turks or Turkey also became more negative because of Orbáns anti-muslim propganda. No offense but this is the truth.

I do not take offense. There are people who call Szekler Transylvania a shithole and Hungary a shithole; Dunai is one who dislikes Hungary and is embarrassed by the country.

Most Hungarians don't care about anything, walking through the world with an apathy of indifference. This is not something that is even unique to us. I don't think you or Dunai even understand why I call myself a "Turkic Hungarian" in the first place. It is particularly to play homage to the fact that this is an important part of our ancestry that I think is understated and underrepresented not only historically but even still today. This is why I practice what I do as well. Our identity will not die. It is because when I travel to the places that you are calling "shitholes" I am treated as a brother. Of course these places are dangerous at times and have people who wills scam you and stuff. Hungary is no different in some areas of the country. But why did the average person who is not a sociopath treat me well? Because I shared that I was a Hungarian. Why did we have so many lovely conversations? Because our shared history. I have been treated to dinners and weddings for nothing more than a sense of companionship. Turks feel alone sometimes, too, spread out across Eurasia. They find it a relief to see a Hungarian who embraces the shared steppe past. I don't care about the government's claims about Muslims. I am not a Muslim, and they are playing up the "defender of Europe" trope of old, which is fine given that it looks like the Germans are ready to throw us all into another hellish chaos again (my heart goes out to the Germans that care about their heritage and I hope they stand strong against a government who hates them). The Hungarian government also supports Kurultaj with tax dollars, you know.

There are some connection but this is only few %, the modern hungarians and nomad magyars are two completely different population. And if a hungarian got few % turkic genetic in the test how do you know it came from the conquerors? It also can be originated from tatars or cumans (13. century), or from ottomans (16-18. century), they also have been here, so what? Its not necessarily conqueror turkic, of courseb it can be but we dont know.

I never said I could know, in fact posting before that we will never know without extensive genetic testing of the population and still unknown graves, but that doesn't make the admixture less Turkic in Hungarians today. There are people who say my sub-group is not even Hungarian, which I why we score more Turkic, which I disagree with.

It's disappointing that you just delete your posts about your opinions that Hungarian conquerors were Turkic (you did it in this thread) and completely flip your point of view of things. It makes it seem like you are embarrassed of holding different opinions or don't want people to see that you ever had a different perspective. Also, you are not Dunai, so why are you being his shield right now when he was the one that made the points that I am questioning, and he is so reluctant to answer for his nonsense? Did you also like how he called Hungarians and Central Asians the same via our apparent love of dictators?

[Roy]

Back to the article: it feels amazing when some old and seemingly far-reaching conjectures from the past actually get confirmed thanks to our modern technology & scientific research.

[Turul Karom]

Why should I repeat the obvious: I already stated numerous times on this forum that I don't particularly have high opinion on Hungarians, especially since they are so immune to widespread corruption and repeatedly offer great majority with their votes, to a person who is one of the worst and most rotten leaders in the history of this country. Do you really wonder why a thinking person would hardly feel any patriotism in times like these.

You are making it sound like it is an ethnicity or meta-ethnicity problem with us. For someone who is against racism, I would think that disparaging a group in such a way is against your morals. Also, if you hate the government, imagine calling yourself a "thinking person" then behaving as though a political party that is not even as old as the members that run it represent an ethnic group over 1000 years old. Everything you posts smacks of western apologia; you probably hang out with people who think Hungary sucks and need to prove you are one of the "good Hungarians" to them by extra dumping on Hungary. Sounds to me like you need better friends if that's the case.

So then, how about you address the rest of the questions from post 114?

[Turul Karom]

Back to the article: it feels amazing when some old and seemingly far-reaching conjectures from the past actually get confirmed thanks to our modern technology & scientific research.

I know, right? It would be more fun to talk about how Hungarians have not only a cultural linkl but now genetic connection to the Huns, which I thought would be the part that really got attention since it was always something so controversial and dismissed as a muth. Note how the Hunnic connection is alongside Turkic peoples as well.

[Scandal]

Why should I repeat the obvious: I already stated numerous times on this forum that I don't particularly have high opinion on Hungarians, especially since they are so immune to widespread corruption and repeatedly offer great majority with their votes, to a person who is one of the worst and most rotten leaders in the history of this country. Do you really wonder why a thinking person would hardly feel any patriotism in times like these.

https://444.hu/2018/04/09/100-ezer-f...int-a-fideszre

[Blondie]

Yet the conqueror class was bilingual with Y-DNA of R1a, not N. This is somehow going to be a goal scored then for a non-Turkic part of the core? The problem is that N is something that was argued by Dunai as evidence for a Mansi core, yet the Turkic group Avars are mostly N. Therefore, Avar=Mansi? I am showing him the hypocrisy of his own logic.

But avars are not in the turkic group, because we have no idea about their language. You can find Árpád's Y haplogroup among the pre-ugric population, or among iranics, or turkics or slavics too, but ypu said it must be 100% turkic, how? There is no evidence for that.

I never said that R1 is exclusively Turkic, but that it is dominant amongst many groups that are called Turkic today.

Actually the r1a-z93 is highest among the afghans, tajiks and kyrgyz peoples, two of these are iranic speakers.

Yet people call Avars Turks today. You know you will not casually go online or into a textbook and find the consensus as "we don't know" but rather that they lean Turkic, with some just stating it outright.

How can you exactly classify an ethnicity if you have no idea about their language? This is nonsense and i don't care the turkicist propganda site where everyone is turkic.

Yet, somehow, calling Hungarians even as Uralo-Altaic is a step too far? What I would like to point out is that Uralo-Altatic would be an acceptable description, but yet that "Altaic" part needs to be cut off entirely for some reason?

Because the hungarian lenguage is not even altaic so we have no reason to call it uralo-altaic, just because the nomad magyars got significant turkic influence it doesn't mean they were originally altaic. But by this logic the modern hungarians are latins because they have tons of latin name, they use latin writing and they are roman catholic.

Most Hungarians don't care about anything, walking through the world with an apathy of indifference.

I have talked about identity, most hungarians have hungarian identity and nothing else, not turkic, nor uralic.

I don't think you or Dunai even understand why I call myself a "Turkic Hungarian" in the first place.

I dont care your identity, this is your business, the problem is if you presents your identity as "majority hungarian" identity. This is bullshit. This is our problem.

It is particularly to play homage to the fact that this is an important part of our ancestry that I think is understated and underrepresented not only historically but even still today. This is why I practice what I do as well. Our identity will not die.

What kind of identity? You (and Dunai too btw) all forget that the core hungarian population was the hungarus and not the elite, who lived in their big castles far away from the peoples, whom they looked down as well. If you see the hungarian history the elite (the glorious descedants of counquerors) were the biggest traitors of all time. They always threw Hungary for foreigners because of their interests, however the hungarus commoners were bleeding in the wars to defend Hungary. Yes i identify myselg with the hungarus class more than the rotten elite. I'm proud that i have no any hungarian noble ancestry, but my hungarian part came from the hungarus. So why everyone thinks that old hungarians were only the conquerors? Bullshit.

It's disappointing that you just delete your posts about your opinions that Hungarian conquerors were Turkic (you did it in this thread) and completely flip your point of view of things. It makes it seem like you are embarrassed of holding different opinions or don't want people to see that you ever had a different perspective. Also, you are not Dunai, so why are you being his shield right now when he was the one that made the points that I am questioning, and he is so reluctant to answer for his nonsense? Did you also like how he called Hungarians and Central Asians the same via our apparent love of dictators?

I deleted my pro-turkic comment because i realized this is outdated. But everyone can see my other such comments from the last half years. Yes i changed my mind because of it, as i said million times i don't make identity question about it, i do care only the facts and science, i had no problem when an older source said conquerors were turkic, just like i have no problem with a new source which call them uralic. To be honest i don't identify myself with the conquerors.

I don't care what Dunai said, it's not secret that we don't like each other, and we had tons of debate in other things. There are things we agree on, just like i agree with you sometimes. In this topic Dunai is right about conquerors, but at same time he said tons of bullshit about his political ideas. I dont care, im not anyone's shied, i have an own opinion and world view what is different from yours and Dunai's opinion in general.
Btw i wanted to write a very rougly comment for Dunai yesterday, because i was sick of his another personal attacks on me with no reason, but after half hour thinking i didn't send it. He doesnt deserve such brutal humiliation.

[Dunai]

You are making it sound like it is an ethnicity or meta-ethnicity problem with us. For someone who is against racism, I would think that disparaging a group in such a way is against your morals. Also, if you hate the government, imagine calling yourself a "thinking person" then behaving as though a political party that is not even as old as the members that run it represent an ethnic group over 1000 years old. Everything you posts smacks of western apologia; you probably hang out with people who think Hungary sucks and need to prove you are one of the "good Hungarians" to them by extra dumping on Hungary. Sounds to me like you need better friends if that's the case.

So then, how about you address the rest of the questions from post 114?

You can remain calm, I won't "infest" your Nationalist circles with my "treacherous" Western morals

[Turul Karom]

But avars are not in the turkic group, because we have no idea about their language. You can find Árpád's Y haplogroup among the pre-ugric population, or among iranics, or turkics or slavics too, but ypu said it must be 100% turkic, how? There is no evidence for that.

Actually the r1a-z93 is highest among the afghans, tajiks and kyrgyz peoples, two of these are iranic speakers. [/QUOTE]

..speakers who have been highly influenced by Turkic genetics.

How can you exactly classify an ethnicity if you have no idea about their language? This is nonsense and i don't care the turkicist propganda site where everyone is turkic.

Apparently we do, because the largest % of Hungarian words are unknown origin, lol. Also you know I don't call everything Turkic. I never quote random blogs or websites as my academic sources, and I certainly never quote wikipedia (which is something that I have encouraged you to stop doing as well for someone who talks about the value of academic sources).

Because the hungarian lenguage is not even altaic so we have no reason to call it uralo-altaic, just because the nomad magyars got significant turkic influence it doesn't mean they were originally altaic. But by this logic the modern hungarians are latins because they have tons of latin name, they use latin writing and they are roman catholic.

It has a large Turkic %, but regardless, if the genetics and culture are Altaic in a large part then you would think that this alone would be enough to call the people Uralo-Altaic. This is why the Finno-Ugric has been abandoned in favor of "Uralic" alone. I can share with you that older F-U linguists are not happy about this in the slightest, which is mildly amusing. Plus, other nations call us Uralo-Altaic without question in their classifications. I would be fine with accepting that classification, but the almost pathological fear from the western academia at such an idea reads more like someone who is afraid of a spider than someone who is intellectually honest in their disagreement.

I have talked about identity, most hungarians have hungarian identity and nothing else, not turkic, nor uralic.

I agree with the assessment that most Hungarians see only themselves, but I think that this is because of isolation in the middle of Europe and have talked already at length about why I am happy to call myself Turkic.

I dont care your identity, this is your business, the problem is if you presents your identity as "majority hungarian" identity. This is bullshit. This is our problem.

I present it as a growing identity that will one day be a majority in an overt sense. That is what I predict for the future. I always say "more Hungarians than you think" regarding it because most Hungarians are too apathetic to care and are content in their malaise. However, as I said, this is common in the west and not a Hungarian specific problem.

What kind of identity? You (and Dunai too btw) all forget that the core hungarian population was the hungarus and not the elite, who lived in their big castles far away from the peoples, whom they looked down as well. If you see the hungarian history the elite (the glorious descedants of counquerors) were the biggest traitors of all time. They always threw Hungary for foreigners because of their interests, however the hungarus commoners were bleeding in the wars to defend Hungary. Yes i identify myselg with the hungarus class more than the rotten elite. I'm proud that i have no any hungarian noble ancestry, but my hungarian part came from the hungarus. So why everyone thinks that old hungarians were only the conquerors? Bullshit.

The identity that connects Hungarians to the past via a genetic and cultural link that transcends our time in Europe. The idea that Hungarian history should only begin in the last few hundred years is nonsense to me. This "hungarus vs. Conqueror" thing was never something that happened in Hungary. There is no book ever from the time talking about how the "hungarus" hated the conquerors or felt exploited by them before or after Christianity. The feudal system was brutal to all people in Hungary. The Germans, the Italians, Caucasians, etc who settled in Hungary and did not have any special privileges were not treated differently from any other peasantry. One of the reasons why some academics call my sub-group a different Turkic group and not Hungarian is because of Szekler privileges. I don't agree with that concept.

You also have no idea if you have any Turkic genetics or not because you have not taken a DNA test and ran it through various calculators. There is a reason why I am OK to post my results from all the companies I have used on TA because I have nothing to fear from myself. The results will either speak for my points or they will not. Most Hungarian elite class was of mixed groups anyway. Do you think that the Vata pagan Tengrist uprising that placed Andrew on the throne was not a popular uprising among the commoners who clamored for their return to Hungary and they took their offer?

I deleted my pro-turkic comment because i realized this is outdated. But everyone can see my other such comments from the last half years. Yes i changed my mind because of it, as i said million times i don't make identity question about it, i do care only the facts and science, i had no problem when an older source said conquerors were turkic, just like i have no problem with a new source which call them uralic. To be honest i don't identify myself with the conquerors.

You are allowed to change your mind, it's only more confusing if you accept that you have older posts out there why you would delete factual other academic sources that you posted at the same time. Instead of saying "I changed my mind" you just deleted everything old and immediately went into the new mode of discussion. It seems more like embarrassment and wanting to minimize appearing like you ever changed your thoughts.

You also don't need to care about the conquerors more than what is convenient because as you have said before on TA, you identitfy yourself primarily as a German.

I don't care what Dunai said, it's not secret that we don't like each other, and we had tons of debate in other things. There are things we agree on, just like i agree with you sometimes. In this topic Dunai is right about conquerors, but at same time he said tons of bullshit about his political ideas. I dont care, im not anyone's shied, i have an own opinion and world view what is different from yours and Dunai's opinion in general.
Btw i wanted to write a very rougly comment for Dunai yesterday, because i was sick of his another personal attacks on me with no reason, but after half hour thinking i didn't send it. He doesnt deserve such brutal humiliation.

The point was that it sounded like you were defending his perspective or excusing his willingness to ignore questions. It took him until page 11 to admit that his N-haplogroup claim from the first page was based on what is a game of telephone with someone who supposedly has a unique insider position for the Y-DNA results that are yet to be posted. Dunai comes as a lecturer, but is a hypocrite who has barely concealed disdain for his fellow Hungarians (as he eventually said in this thread) because of political reasons. I would respect him more if he just said that he finds being Hungarian embarrassing and shameful more often because then it would at least frame his constant attacks on our country as how he sees it in his heart.

Since we are talking about agreements between one another, and I am a fan of building bridges rather than burning them, what are things that you find we agree on? I would like to hear them. Also, do you agree that Szeklers are not a uniquely different Turkic group to Hungarians but rather preserved on average more Turkic genetics?