Vahaduo calcs vol.2

[Russki]

Leto, I asked you something in PM

PM me back please

[paradox]

Are you talking only about Greeks here (excluding Aromanians and Slavs/Bulgarians/Macedonians?)
there seems to be a peak of Slavic genetics somehwere in this area, for example the father of user paradox from this forum who is Aromanian from Serres has a very "northern" result.

My dad isn't from Serres. You must be mistaking him for someone else.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Lucas, could you please add these samples on https://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancientdate.html ?

MDA_Trypillia_Late:Gordinesti___BC_3340___Coverage_79.07%,0.122929,0.160454,0.016216,-0.033915,0.032929,-0.018965,0.00094,-0.002769,0.018612,0.035536,0.00065,0,-0.010852,-0.009083,-0.020087,0,0.017341,0.003294,-0.003645,0.001626,0.00287,0.009645,-0.005176,-0.005904,-0.004311
MDA_Trypillia_Late:Pocrovca3___BC_3228___Coverage_97.47%,0.12862,0.160454,0.025267,-0.036499,0.050779,-0.027331,-0.000705,0.000231,0.031497,0.055218,0.005034,0.009891,-0.023042,-0.003028,-0.017644,-0.008618,0.018645,0.008235,0.005405,0.001,0.00025,0.005812,-0.002958,-0.014821,0.002634
Orkney_IA:KD004___BC_168___Coverage_32.99%,0.127482,0.128972,0.059962,0.043605,0.035083,0.010598,0.000705,0.008769,0.010431,-0.005649,-0.001949,0.01154,-0.004608,-0.016928,0.026194,0.004906,-0.002477,0.006588,-0.000377,0.004502,-0.001996,0.010016,-0.001109,0.020123,-0.000359
Orkney_MBA:KD047___BC_1410___Coverage_18.49%,0.132035,0.127957,0.067882,0.049419,0.025851,0.006972,0.010105,-0.007154,0.002659,0.006925,0.001137,0.018434,-0.021853,-0.021194,0.015879,0.010077,0.007823,-0.009502,0.002765,0.012131,-0.000998,0.014591,0.003944,0.009037,0.001676
Orkney_MBA:KD049___undated___Coverage_47.98%,0.127482,0.127957,0.059585,0.057817,0.025543,0.02008,0.00705,0.011307,0,-0.003827,0.00341,0.012139,-0.007284,-0.012248,0.02918,0.014585,-0.010952,0.00076,-0.000377,0.007128,0.010357,-0.005317,0.004683,0.01205,-0.004191
Orkney_MBA:KD061___undated___Coverage_45.31%,0.133173,0.136081,0.065619,0.057494,0.0397,0.009761,0.011045,0.003,0.000818,-0.007472,0.005359,0.009741,-0.019177,-0.030827,0.016965,0.016309,-0.000522,-0.003167,0.00817,0.007504,0.008111,0.004328,0.002095,0.007953,-0.003353
Orkney_MBA:KD064___undated___Coverage_63.61%,0.126344,0.12491,0.056945,0.052972,0.033545,0.016733,0.00235,0.004384,0.004704,0.002916,-0.001299,0.012889,-0.017245,-0.02202,0.023615,0.013259,0.005346,0.000887,0.004902,0.001751,0.001747,-0.000618,0.007888,0.004699,-0.004311
Scotland_Pictish_EMA:KD001___541_AD___Coverage_57.65%,0.134311,0.126941,0.062979,0.053941,0.040007,0.018407,-0.008225,0.005538,0.000205,-0.003098,-0.014615,0.007194,-0.012339,-0.014726,0.028773,0.009944,-0.009388,0.001014,0.002765,0.01038,0.007986,0.003957,0.002342,0.000964,-0.000838
Scotland_Skye_IA:KD005___78_AD___Coverage_24.67%,0.142279,0.123895,0.059585,0.062339,0.026159,0.021753,0.00047,-0.002077,0.004295,-0.007472,0.003573,0.011989,-0.010406,-0.011147,0.024837,0.017369,-0.014081,-0.006714,-0.00264,0.004627,-0.002371,0.009398,0.004067,0.007953,0.000359
Scotland_Skye_N:KD026___undated___Coverage_34.90%,0.127482,0.171624,0.05506,-0.027778,0.094479,-0.013666,-0.00376,0.000231,0.057267,0.080913,-0.001786,0.020232,-0.030029,-0.019542,-0.007736,0.000928,0.026468,0.003547,0.005782,0.006878,0.014225,0.003215,-0.018364,-0.03627,-0.002754

[Lucas]

Lucas, could you please add these samples on https://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancientdate.html ?

MDA_Trypillia_Late:Gordinesti___BC_3340___Coverage_79.07%,0.122929,0.160454,0.016216,-0.033915,0.032929,-0.018965,0.00094,-0.002769,0.018612,0.035536,0.00065,0,-0.010852,-0.009083,-0.020087,0,0.017341,0.003294,-0.003645,0.001626,0.00287,0.009645,-0.005176,-0.005904,-0.004311
MDA_Trypillia_Late:Pocrovca3___BC_3228___Coverage_97.47%,0.12862,0.160454,0.025267,-0.036499,0.050779,-0.027331,-0.000705,0.000231,0.031497,0.055218,0.005034,0.009891,-0.023042,-0.003028,-0.017644,-0.008618,0.018645,0.008235,0.005405,0.001,0.00025,0.005812,-0.002958,-0.014821,0.002634
Orkney_IA:KD004___BC_168___Coverage_32.99%,0.127482,0.128972,0.059962,0.043605,0.035083,0.010598,0.000705,0.008769,0.010431,-0.005649,-0.001949,0.01154,-0.004608,-0.016928,0.026194,0.004906,-0.002477,0.006588,-0.000377,0.004502,-0.001996,0.010016,-0.001109,0.020123,-0.000359
Orkney_MBA:KD047___BC_1410___Coverage_18.49%,0.132035,0.127957,0.067882,0.049419,0.025851,0.006972,0.010105,-0.007154,0.002659,0.006925,0.001137,0.018434,-0.021853,-0.021194,0.015879,0.010077,0.007823,-0.009502,0.002765,0.012131,-0.000998,0.014591,0.003944,0.009037,0.001676
Orkney_MBA:KD049___undated___Coverage_47.98%,0.127482,0.127957,0.059585,0.057817,0.025543,0.02008,0.00705,0.011307,0,-0.003827,0.00341,0.012139,-0.007284,-0.012248,0.02918,0.014585,-0.010952,0.00076,-0.000377,0.007128,0.010357,-0.005317,0.004683,0.01205,-0.004191
Orkney_MBA:KD061___undated___Coverage_45.31%,0.133173,0.136081,0.065619,0.057494,0.0397,0.009761,0.011045,0.003,0.000818,-0.007472,0.005359,0.009741,-0.019177,-0.030827,0.016965,0.016309,-0.000522,-0.003167,0.00817,0.007504,0.008111,0.004328,0.002095,0.007953,-0.003353
Orkney_MBA:KD064___undated___Coverage_63.61%,0.126344,0.12491,0.056945,0.052972,0.033545,0.016733,0.00235,0.004384,0.004704,0.002916,-0.001299,0.012889,-0.017245,-0.02202,0.023615,0.013259,0.005346,0.000887,0.004902,0.001751,0.001747,-0.000618,0.007888,0.004699,-0.004311
Scotland_Pictish_EMA:KD001___541_AD___Coverage_57.65%,0.134311,0.126941,0.062979,0.053941,0.040007,0.018407,-0.008225,0.005538,0.000205,-0.003098,-0.014615,0.007194,-0.012339,-0.014726,0.028773,0.009944,-0.009388,0.001014,0.002765,0.01038,0.007986,0.003957,0.002342,0.000964,-0.000838
Scotland_Skye_IA:KD005___78_AD___Coverage_24.67%,0.142279,0.123895,0.059585,0.062339,0.026159,0.021753,0.00047,-0.002077,0.004295,-0.007472,0.003573,0.011989,-0.010406,-0.011147,0.024837,0.017369,-0.014081,-0.006714,-0.00264,0.004627,-0.002371,0.009398,0.004067,0.007953,0.000359
Scotland_Skye_N:KD026___undated___Coverage_34.90%,0.127482,0.171624,0.05506,-0.027778,0.094479,-0.013666,-0.00376,0.000231,0.057267,0.080913,-0.001786,0.020232,-0.030029,-0.019542,-0.007736,0.000928,0.026468,0.003547,0.005782,0.006878,0.014225,0.003215,-0.018364,-0.03627,-0.002754

Added

[kingmob]

Are you talking only about Greeks here (excluding Aromanians and Slavs/Bulgarians/Macedonians?)
there seems to be a peak of Slavic genetics somehwere in this area, for example the father of user paradox from this forum who is Aromanian from Serres has a very "northern" result.

I'm trying to collect more samples with confirmed ancestry to make a proper average for Vahaduo. Do you think all these are simply non-Greeks?

Like I said, Drama and Kavala were almost entirely Ottoman and 95%+ of the original population was exchanged. Currently, the people from East Macedonia that score such Balkan profiles (like my father, for example, who by the way is representative of Late Medieval Vlach settlers in Thrace, not South Bulgarians like another poster said) are from the following places that were the sources of the refugee Greek population that settled: Eastern Rumelia and Eastern Thrace.

Also, there are groups like Karakachans, in East Macedonia, who are originally from Bulgaria and who would be very similar, if not identical, to the Slavs you are looking for?

Hope that helps.

PS. The problem with your average seems to be the cut-off date with which you are trying to divide the "original" population to the "settlers" from what I understand. But the problem you are having, in my opinion, for Drama and Kavala, is that 95%+ of that "original" group is now in Turkey and are Turks.

PS2. You might want to look for Doxato, the village, as one of the places that was in that 5% that wasn't exchanged because they were Greeks, but from what I know and have seen, they also have an Arvanitovlach profile.

PS3. My dad's-village's oral tradition is that they are Vlachs from Epirus/Thessaly in Thrace during the 17th century, his original name is strictly of Karagouni origin and peaks in Karditsa, in Central Greece. How he got his "Persian" haplo is still mystery, maybe Christianised Persians or Seljuks mercenaries that settled in Thrace, absorbed by the other Christian groups? However, there's 2 Vlachs on YFULL, one from Korytsa in Albania and another from Romania, a close upstream, so there's always that.

[vbnetkhio]

Like I said, Drama and Kavala were almost entirely Ottoman and 95%+ of the original population was exchanged. Currently, the people from East Macedonia that score such Balkan profiles (like my father, for example, who by the way is representative of Late Medieval Vlach settlers in Thrace, not South Bulgarians like another poster said) are from the following places that were the sources of the refugee Greek population that settled: Eastern Rumelia and Eastern Thrace.

Also, there are groups like Karakachans, in East Macedonia, who are originally from Bulgaria and who would be very similar, if not identical, to the Slavs you are looking for?

Hope that helps.

PS. The problem with your average seems to be the cut-off date with which you are trying to divide the "original" population to the "settlers" from what I understand. But the problem you are having, in my opinion, for Drama and Kavala, is that 95%+ of that "original" group is now in Turkey and are Turks.

PS2. You might want to look for Doxato, the village, as one of the places that was in that 5% that wasn't exchanged because they were Greeks, but from what I know and have seen, they also have an Arvanitovlach profile.

PS3. My dad's-village's oral tradition is that they are Vlachs from Epirus/Thessaly in Thrace during the 17th century, his original name is strictly of Karagouni origin and peaks in Karditsa, in Central Greece. How he got his "Persian" haplo is still mystery, maybe Christianised Persians or Seljuks mercenaries that settled in Thrace, absorbed by the other Christian groups? However, there's 2 Vlachs on YFULL, one from Korytsa in Albania and another from Romania, a close upstream, so there's always that.

I'm simply looking for these "Mainland Greeks" and "Slavic Speakers" marked on this map:



do you think the map is accurate?

Karakachans would certainly be interesting too, but they could be something completely different genetically.

[kingmob]

I'm simply looking for these "Mainland Greeks" and "Slavic Speakers" marked on this map:
do you think the map is accurate?

This is Eastern Macedonia (Serres is Central Macedonia), it consists of the cities of Kavala and Drama, and is part of the larger regional unit of Thrace ("Eastern Macedonia and Thrace").



There's no Slavic speakers in Drama, maybe in remote mountain villages like Volakas, next to the Bulgarian border, but we're talking about barely 1000 people there, if that.

Kavala has no one.

The population of Eastern Macedonia consists entirely of Anatolians + Thracians.

Your map is obviously wrong, and I seem to be unable to convince you that the pre-treaty population of Turks departed and left no one behind.

You are free to search for those fabled Slavic speakers of Drama and Kavala, and if you find them, I'd like to see who they are, also.

[vbnetkhio]

This is Eastern Macedonia (Serres is Central Macedonia), it consists of the cities of Kavala and Drama, and is part of the larger regional unit of Thrace ("Eastern Macedonia and Thrace").

I know, but those those are just modern administrative borders. Maybe Serres is genetically more east Macedonian?

There's no Slavic speakers in Drama, maybe in remote mountain villages like Volakas, next to the Bulgarian border, but we're talking about barely 1000 people there, if that.

Kavala has no one.

The population of Eastern Macedonia consists entirely of Anatolians + Thracians.

Your map is obviously wrong, and I seem to be unable to convince you that the pre-treaty population of Turks departed and left no one behind.

You are free to search for those fabled Slavic speakers of Drama, and if you find them, I'd like to see who they are, also.

What about that result from Mikropoli I posted?
I'm not looking for Slavic speakers, but for people with a lot of ancient Slavic admixture, no matter what they identify as or what language they speak.
Maybe they are Aromanian or Greek for centuries, but still autosomally highly Slavic.

[kingmob]

Maybe they are Aromanian or Greek for centuries, but still autosomally highly Slavic.

The problem with your line argument, is that you assign a linguistic tag to those groups because they are relatively close to your "Slavic" prototype on ADMIXTURE.

A better way to approach things is to check the ethnography and material culture and see which groups could have absorbed which, in a manner of speaking.

The Aroumans and other Vlach groups (Karagouni, Arvanitovlachs, and Arvanites themselves, of course) have very distinct ethnography and language that separates them sharply to Bulgarian Slavs, for example.

So, assigning Aroumans and Vlachs the tag "Slavic" is extremely one sided and aggressive to those people's ethnography.

The Greeks of Thrace and East Macedonia, excluding Anatolians and certain groups of Eastern Rumelians and the Gagauzes, have very distinct characteristics, firstly they are Vlach settlers from mid to late medieval era. Secondly, they speak Greek (being a heavily controlled area by the Phanariotes) and specifically the Ioanninan dialect (the "standard" Epirotan Greek dialect), their Thracian version also borrowing Turkish, Bulgarian and even Armenian loanwords, evidence of the Christianised groups that they could have absorbed.

If you want to include them to your Pan-Slavic group, then it's up to you, but you should have the courtesy, as an ethnographer, to ask them first if they agree (so to speak). I know my Thracian folks would disagree vehemently of being called Bulgarians and Slavs, they never spoke Slavic or anything similar or ever considered themselves close to them, they spoke Greek (the aforementioned Ioanninan Arvanito-Vlach dialect) and were an Ottoman-friendly (Phanariote influenced) anti-Bulgarian group, up until the events of the First Balkan War.

Hope it helps.

[kingmob]

I ran my dad's stuff on your database and this is what he comes up with:

Distance to:	eupatordad
2.53185245	91.00% Greek_Epirus + 9.00% Latvian
2.61036899	68.00% Greek_Epirus + 32.00% Moldovan_South
2.65921116	90.60% Greek_Epirus + 9.40% Lithuanian_Žemaitija
2.67250688	87.80% Greek_Epirus + 12.20% Russian_Southwest
2.67519682	90.00% Greek_Epirus + 10.00% Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
2.68290356	55.00% Greek_Epirus + 45.00% Pomak_Greece
2.68661175	11.20% Belarusian + 88.80% Greek_Epirus
2.69878426	88.20% Greek_Epirus + 11.80% Russian_Ryazan
2.70923427	88.60% Greek_Epirus + 11.40% Mordvin
2.72328088	87.60% Greek_Epirus + 12.40% Ukrainian_North
2.74517279	87.60% Greek_Epirus + 12.40% Ukrainian
2.76114157	87.80% Greek_Epirus + 12.20% Ukrainian_Northwest
2.76337554	90.20% Greek_Epirus + 9.80% Russian_Pskov
2.79767544	89.40% Greek_Epirus + 10.60% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
2.79847859	86.60% Greek_Epirus + 13.40% Ukrainian_South
2.80804624	89.20% Greek_Epirus + 10.80% Russian_Kostroma
2.81962762	89.40% Greek_Epirus + 10.60% Russian_Kargopol
2.81972293	88.80% Greek_Epirus + 11.20% Russian
2.85667560	88.20% Greek_Epirus + 11.80% Polish_Mazovia
2.86218543	56.00% Greek_Epirus + 44.00% Pomak_Bulgaria
2.88164984	89.00% Greek_Epirus + 11.00% Russian_Smolensk
2.91070026	80.00% Greek_Epirus + 20.00% Moldovan_North
2.93269262	90.00% Greek_Epirus + 10.00% Russian_North
2.93729935	88.60% Greek_Epirus + 11.40% Polish_Podlaskie
2.97047604	77.00% Greek_Epirus + 23.00% Moldovan_Central

I don't think this is a Bulgarian profile, it's consistent with the oral tradition of his village (Arvanite-Vlach settlement).


PS.

Material folk culture (Thracians in Drama):




The men wear the standard Ottoman attire, the women dresses that are reminiscent of Epirotan and Karagouni equivalents (black and red for the latter).

The music is reminiscent of Epirotan-Western Macedonian Arvanito-Vlach sources enriched with an Ottomano-Bulgarian flair. The dialect is visibly Ioanninan in origin.