Ukrainian academic regional k13 results - more than 100

**Vega7** · 02-21-2022, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Nurzat

your theory doesn't follow geography, as you claim: Ivano-Frankivsk (38%) scores more Baltic than Chernivtsi (35%) or Ternopil (37%) and similar to Lviv (39%), anyway close enough to Ukrainian average (42%).

long before Vlachs the Scythians northwest of the Black Sea already had WestMed+EastMed+RedSea 28% on average, with individual scores from 14% to over 50%. so for sure it wasn't Vlachs to introduce Mediterranean genes to Ukrainians, those genes became part of the local genepool long before Slavic ethnogenesis happened

My own ancestry is 5/8 Ukrainian and 3/8 Romanian from Chernivtsi with my sister scoring 38% Baltic. They came to Canada around 1900 before any of the more recent population movements.

Here are her results, which I also posted in Ion's thread for Moldova/Romania: 24.23,37.67,14.3,6.77,10.93,2.01,0.58,0,2.27,0.48, 0,0,0.74

Ivano-Frankivsk did become part of Moldavia for a while at the end of the Middle Ages, but I'm not sure how significantly that could have affected its genetics.

In 1388, Władysław II Jagiełło, needing financial support for his battles against the Teutonic Knights, placed Pokuttia under the administration of Petru II of Moldavia, a Moldavian voivode, for a loan of 3,000 coins of gold.

In 1485, Moldavian prince Stephen the Great, having lost his country's access to the Black Sea the previous year to the Ottomans, was in serious need of alliances, and swore allegiance to Casimir IV Jagiellon, King of Poland, in exchange of Pokuttia, in what is known as the Colomeea oath.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokuttia

So basically for 100 years.

Originally Posted by Nurzat

it doesn't contradict what I say: the population in northern Romania, northern Moldova and SW Ukraine owes its genetic mix mostly to demographic realities previous to Vlach expansion: their Neolithic Farmer genes should be mostly from the actual local Neolithic cultures (as it is, diluted down to 15-20% in SW Ukrainians). and yes there you have Chernivtsi oblast' Ukrainians and Suceava and Botosani county Romanians as well as northern Moldova Rep people with a mostly similar genetic breakdown of main components (Baltic, Atlantic, Mediterranean), I bet on a local stable mix that rather was initially Slavic. Vlachs did penetrate Ukrainian territory, but for the most melted into the Ukrainians on a more local and individual path than like getting entire communities Slavicized - that did not happen, only the contrary, Slavic inhabitants between Carpathians and Dniester got Romanianized linguistically. local persistence of Neolithic DNA (diluted, of course) is backed also by the continuity of I2 YDNA hg.

isn't there a way to more scientifically test that? that the Mediterranean genes of Moldovans and Ukrainians are Neolithic and not recent Vlach input (for the most). work has to be done to look more on an IBD way at ancestry in the region than macro components.

From old pictures of my Ukrainian and Romanian relatives from that region, there didn't seem to be any significant phenotypical differences between the two groups. Also, my sister, who is 3/8 Romanian, did not score any lower in 'northern' admixture than my 1/4 Romanian mother. Although it's only a 1/8 difference between them. My Romanian relatives were native Moldavians, not descendent from the more recent Transylvanian migrants who were quite numerous especially in southern Bukovina.

Having said that, it is likely that many Ukrainians who moved to Chernivtsi from Galicia in the 1700s mixed with Romanians there and later (in the 1900s) moved north to neighbouring regions like Ivano-Frankivsk and Ternopil.

I guess the question is how similar the Ukrainian populations south of the Dniestr (and NE of the Carpathians) were to Northern Moldavians. Whether there is historic continuity between the two groups, as per your hypothesis, or whether they were initially fundamentally different and whether more recent mixing has made them similar. I do remember reading that local slavic populations in Moldavia were Romanianized when the Moldavian state was initially founded, which is something you alluded to.

**Ajeje Brazorf** · 03-22-2022, 11:52 PM

Averages

Code:

Cherkaska_(N=3),27.57,43.85,10.39,5.49,7.03,0.69,0.98,0.19,2.80,0.25,0.47,0.28,0.00
Chernihivska_(N=10),25.81,46.87,10.07,6.20,6.08,1.02,1.17,0.57,0.83,0.39,0.57,0.29,0.13
Chernivetska_(N=2),23.28,35.95,13.66,9.77,12.08,1.28,0.00,0.19,1.64,1.15,0.50,0.51,0.00
Chernivetska_o_(N=1),24.68,34.39,6.08,13.08,7.88,0.79,0.63,2.72,8.90,0.50,0.09,0.03,0.23
Dnipropetrovska_(N=10),26.69,46.12,10.08,6.00,4.67,1.13,0.99,0.45,2.26,0.71,0.47,0.23,0.22
Donetska_(N=5),25.26,44.73,10.76,6.97,6.38,1.08,0.60,0.73,2.23,0.68,0.21,0.09,0.27
Harkivska_(N=11),25.54,46.02,10.02,6.44,7.08,0.68,1.16,0.45,1.01,0.72,0.27,0.30,0.29
Ivano-Frankivska_(N=15),26.64,38.13,13.87,5.78,10.41,1.29,1.13,0.26,1.38,0.58,0.20,0.17,0.16
Khmelnytska_(N=2),30.63,36.55,14.15,8.05,5.26,1.20,1.26,0.82,1.19,0.38,0.09,0.36,0.10
Kropyvnytska_(N=2),27.51,42.28,11.30,6.27,6.89,0.07,3.65,0.00,0.55,0.63,0.46,0.10,0.32
Krym_(N=1),29.03,42.58,9.40,4.38,10.12,0.05,0.97,0.03,0.68,0.84,1.09,0.78,0.06
Kyivska_(N=28),26.16,45.49,10.43,6.01,6.54,1.14,0.87,0.41,1.23,0.70,0.50,0.15,0.36
Kyivska_o1_(N=1),23.57,37.18,7.85,20.02,4.47,1.15,1.88,0.00,2.47,0.00,0.20,0.66,0.56
Kyivska_o_(N=1),15.10,46.29,8.45,8.68,2.46,1.15,0.66,0.75,13.71,1.53,0.01,0.00,1.21
Luhansk_(N=1),28.40,42.66,13.51,4.12,8.17,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.21,1.92,0.00,0.00,0.00
Luhansk_o_(N=1),21.22,30.61,10.26,13.11,16.73,1.18,3.00,0.01,2.06,0.37,0.52,0.21,0.73
Lvivska_(N=16),27.75,40.05,12.53,7.19,7.48,1.32,1.04,0.34,1.24,0.52,0.36,0.10,0.08
Mykolaivska_(N=1),22.19,43.66,12.21,8.53,5.94,0.00,2.26,0.01,3.49,1.27,0.45,0.00,0.00
Odeska_(N=2),25.02,40.03,12.19,6.26,9.91,1.95,0.76,0.43,1.59,0.69,0.14,0.33,0.72
Poltavska_(N=2),23.50,44.01,11.33,6.92,7.75,0.26,1.16,0.52,2.24,1.47,0.75,0.05,0.06
Rivnenska_(N=14),27.91,45.96,10.48,5.82,5.04,0.88,0.61,0.26,1.06,0.85,0.64,0.19,0.29
Sumska_(N=17),27.69,45.68,10.30,5.28,5.87,0.92,0.88,0.51,1.11,0.79,0.48,0.17,0.31
Ternopilska_(N=2),28.78,39.31,12.99,7.02,7.69,0.89,0.98,0.20,0.66,0.98,0.47,0.02,0.04
Volynska_(N=1),24.50,49.74,12.13,7.65,2.00,0.76,0.00,1.54,0.73,0.09,0.70,0.00,0.15
Zakarpatska_(N=24),26.73,38.29,12.82,7.66,9.27,1.13,1.13,0.41,1.38,0.66,0.27,0.14,0.12
Zaporizka_(N=2),26.93,44.33,10.28,4.87,8.61,0.53,1.87,0.01,1.66,0.47,0.36,0.00,0.11
Zaporizka_o_(N=1),19.89,33.73,9.27,17.00,14.19,1.14,2.42,0.00,0.00,1.31,0.00,1.07,0.00
Zhytomyrska_(N=12),26.43,45.88,9.99,5.55,7.45,0.57,1.05,0.51,1.23,0.53,0.43,0.14,0.25
Zhytomyrska_o_(N=1),16.45,12.19,19.47,11.31,32.12,4.77,0.01,0.53,0.67,0.00,1.01,0.65,0.80

**Dušan** · 03-23-2022, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

Averages

Code:

Cherkaska_(N=3),27.57,43.85,10.39,5.49,7.03,0.69,0.98,0.19,2.80,0.25,0.47,0.28,0.00
Chernihivska_(N=10),25.81,46.87,10.07,6.20,6.08,1.02,1.17,0.57,0.83,0.39,0.57,0.29,0.13
Chernivetska_(N=2),23.28,35.95,13.66,9.77,12.08,1.28,0.00,0.19,1.64,1.15,0.50,0.51,0.00
Chernivetska_o_(N=1),24.68,34.39,6.08,13.08,7.88,0.79,0.63,2.72,8.90,0.50,0.09,0.03,0.23
Dnipropetrovska_(N=10),26.69,46.12,10.08,6.00,4.67,1.13,0.99,0.45,2.26,0.71,0.47,0.23,0.22
Donetska_(N=5),25.26,44.73,10.76,6.97,6.38,1.08,0.60,0.73,2.23,0.68,0.21,0.09,0.27
Harkivska_(N=11),25.54,46.02,10.02,6.44,7.08,0.68,1.16,0.45,1.01,0.72,0.27,0.30,0.29
Ivano-Frankivska_(N=15),26.64,38.13,13.87,5.78,10.41,1.29,1.13,0.26,1.38,0.58,0.20,0.17,0.16
Khmelnytska_(N=2),30.63,36.55,14.15,8.05,5.26,1.20,1.26,0.82,1.19,0.38,0.09,0.36,0.10
Kropyvnytska_(N=2),27.51,42.28,11.30,6.27,6.89,0.07,3.65,0.00,0.55,0.63,0.46,0.10,0.32
Krym_(N=1),29.03,42.58,9.40,4.38,10.12,0.05,0.97,0.03,0.68,0.84,1.09,0.78,0.06
Kyivska_(N=28),26.16,45.49,10.43,6.01,6.54,1.14,0.87,0.41,1.23,0.70,0.50,0.15,0.36
Kyivska_o1_(N=1),23.57,37.18,7.85,20.02,4.47,1.15,1.88,0.00,2.47,0.00,0.20,0.66,0.56
Kyivska_o_(N=1),15.10,46.29,8.45,8.68,2.46,1.15,0.66,0.75,13.71,1.53,0.01,0.00,1.21
Luhansk_(N=1),28.40,42.66,13.51,4.12,8.17,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.21,1.92,0.00,0.00,0.00
Luhansk_o_(N=1),21.22,30.61,10.26,13.11,16.73,1.18,3.00,0.01,2.06,0.37,0.52,0.21,0.73
Lvivska_(N=16),27.75,40.05,12.53,7.19,7.48,1.32,1.04,0.34,1.24,0.52,0.36,0.10,0.08
Mykolaivska_(N=1),22.19,43.66,12.21,8.53,5.94,0.00,2.26,0.01,3.49,1.27,0.45,0.00,0.00
Odeska_(N=2),25.02,40.03,12.19,6.26,9.91,1.95,0.76,0.43,1.59,0.69,0.14,0.33,0.72
Poltavska_(N=2),23.50,44.01,11.33,6.92,7.75,0.26,1.16,0.52,2.24,1.47,0.75,0.05,0.06
Rivnenska_(N=14),27.91,45.96,10.48,5.82,5.04,0.88,0.61,0.26,1.06,0.85,0.64,0.19,0.29
Sumska_(N=17),27.69,45.68,10.30,5.28,5.87,0.92,0.88,0.51,1.11,0.79,0.48,0.17,0.31
Ternopilska_(N=2),28.78,39.31,12.99,7.02,7.69,0.89,0.98,0.20,0.66,0.98,0.47,0.02,0.04
Volynska_(N=1),24.50,49.74,12.13,7.65,2.00,0.76,0.00,1.54,0.73,0.09,0.70,0.00,0.15
Zakarpatska_(N=24),26.73,38.29,12.82,7.66,9.27,1.13,1.13,0.41,1.38,0.66,0.27,0.14,0.12
Zaporizka_(N=2),26.93,44.33,10.28,4.87,8.61,0.53,1.87,0.01,1.66,0.47,0.36,0.00,0.11
Zaporizka_o_(N=1),19.89,33.73,9.27,17.00,14.19,1.14,2.42,0.00,0.00,1.31,0.00,1.07,0.00
Zhytomyrska_(N=12),26.43,45.88,9.99,5.55,7.45,0.57,1.05,0.51,1.23,0.53,0.43,0.14,0.25
Zhytomyrska_o_(N=1),16.45,12.19,19.47,11.31,32.12,4.77,0.01,0.53,0.67,0.00,1.01,0.65,0.80

I got them in various mixed modes, added to Eurogenes K13 updated Bigger Regions:

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.7267% / 1.72667627 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.7 Chernivetska_(N=2)
25.5 Mykolaivska_(N=1)
13.8 Sardinian

Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.6406% / 2.64063636 | ADC: 0.5x RC
89.7 Chernivetska_(N=2)
10.3 Sardinian

Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.5421% / 2.54210001 | R2P
50.4 Torbesh
49.6 Volynska_(N=1)

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.5157% / 1.51570210 | R3P
52.7 Mykolaivska_(N=1)
34.8 Moldovan_South
12.5 Sardinian

Chernivetska_ average seems Balkan (Vlach) influenced.

**Ajeje Brazorf** · 03-23-2022, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dušan

I got them in various mixed modes, added to Eurogenes K13 updated Bigger Regions:

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.7267% / 1.72667627 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.7 Chernivetska_(N=2)
25.5 Mykolaivska_(N=1)
13.8 Sardinian

Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.6406% / 2.64063636 | ADC: 0.5x RC
89.7 Chernivetska_(N=2)
10.3 Sardinian

Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.5421% / 2.54210001 | R2P
50.4 Torbesh
49.6 Volynska_(N=1)

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.5157% / 1.51570210 | R3P
52.7 Mykolaivska_(N=1)
34.8 Moldovan_South
12.5 Sardinian

Chernivetska_ average seems Balkan (Vlach) influenced.

PCA

**Dušan** · 03-23-2022, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

PCA

Yeah, Chernivetska_ is southern shifted, as I thought.

**Ajeje Brazorf** · 03-23-2022, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dušan

Yeah, Chernivetska_ is southern shifted, as I thought.

By the way, I am unable to define how accurate these averages may be.

**hawklutz86** · 10-13-2023, 05:51 AM

My K13: descendant of Vlach Dragos Voda on my mom's side (Sas coat of arms). Lviv region, Ukraine, Carpathian mountains.

North_Atlantic 26.84 Pct
Baltic 34.9 Pct
West_Med 15.12 Pct
West_Asian 5.03 Pct
East_Med 15.08 Pct
Red_Sea 0.34 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.87 Pct
Siberian 0.41 Pct
Amerindian 0.52 Pct
Oceanian 0.22 Pct
Northeast_African 0.67 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

On my father's line pretty typical Lviv Ukrainians. Most of my relatives on my father's side would be like this:
My aunt:
North_Atlantic 28.52 Pct
Baltic 40.25 Pct
West_Med 18.63 Pct
West_Asian 7.77 Pct
East_Med 8.71 Pct
Red_Sea 0.26 Pct
South_Asian 0.65 Pct
East_Asian 1.54 Pct
Siberian 0.6 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.09 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

So, going from there, my "Vlach" Mom would be something like:
North_Atlantic 25.16 Pct
Baltic 29.56 Pct
West_Med 17.61 Pct
West_Asian 2.29 Pct
East_Med 21.45 Pct
Red_Sea 0.42 Pct
South_Asian 0 Pct
East_Asian 0 Pct
Siberian 0.2 Pct
Amerindian - 1 Pct
Oceanian 0.3 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Very low West Asian and Red Sea and very high East Med. Where do you think this admix might have originated and what would be it's percentage vs Slavic admix. Thanks!

**Slavic Italian** · 10-13-2023, 01:15 PM

This was scary accurate for me. My most recent Slavic line was born in Khmelnytska. But I am also Scottish, Anglo, Italian, and Belorussian so there is a little distance.

Target: Slavic_Italian(American)
Distance: 900.7338% / 9.00733833 | ADC: 0.25x RC
74.0 Khmelnytska_(N=2)
26.0 Zhytomyrska_o_(N=1)

From the academic references. Spot on.
Target: Slavic_Italian(American)
Distance: 603.9992% / 6.03999212 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.8 Khmelnytska
30.4 Zhytomyrska_o
3.8 Zakarpatska

**~~CountGrishnackh~~** · 10-13-2023, 01:52 PM

How do I get k13 coordinates again? I go to gedmatch, get my k13 results but I can't find a converter.

**Slavic Italian** · 10-14-2023, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by CountGrishnackh

How do I get k13 coordinates again? I go to gedmatch, get my k13 results but I can't find a converter.

You use the specifics at the top when you run the calculator. Then you arrange them like G25 coordinates. You don't use a converter. Don't forget a slash means 0.
Mine for example. Slavic_Italian(American),34.34,25.7,14.8,7.44,12.4 2,1.46,1.07,0,0,1.13,0.82,0.83,0

Population
North_Atlantic 34.59 Pct
Baltic 25.13 Pct
West_Med 14.57 Pct
West_Asian 7.57 Pct
East_Med 12.19 Pct
Red_Sea 1.61 Pct
South_Asian 1.21 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.18 Pct
Oceanian 0.82 Pct
Northeast_African 1.14 Pct
Sub-Saharan -