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Thread: Dodecad k12b West & Central Asian results Vol 4.

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    These are 4 results of Kurds from my linguistically and religiously diverse but (seemingly) autosomally homogeneous home town of Sarpole Zahab, Kermanshah province, Iran. Or Sarpeli Zahaw as it's locally known. It's where the ancient town of Hulwan used to be.
    Historically we have strong ties to Kalar & Diyala/Sirwan river on the other side of the Iran-Iraq border, besides the other towns in the Kermanshah province of course.
    https://imgur.com/EYy9eDi.jpg

    Language: Central & Southern Kurdish, formerly Gorani
    Tribal background: Jaf, Goran, Kalhor
    Religious background: Sunni, Shia, Yarsanism




    Very similar results despite the linguistic and religious diversity, but this is not entirely surprising.
    The mass conversion to Shi'ism in Kermanshah occurred very late compared to other provinces. Qajar, as opposed to the Savafid period. Also, intermarriages between the different religious groups are common compared to elsewhere in Middle East

    It's pretty ordinary West Iranian results, but one thing that stands out for me is the relatively high Atlantic_Med score.
    It's higher than among most Kurds who live much further west and even higher than among some Assyrians.
    I associate high Atlantic_Med score among Middle Easterners with Levantine admixture, but I don't notice any Levant-shift in this case. The oracles on the GEDMatch calculators prefer Iranian/Kurdish + a tiny bit of Sardinian, Greek or some other Mediterranean group.
    That seemed ridiculous at first considering the geographical distance but not as implausible after I took a look at the Wiki page of Hulwan:

    Hulwan (Persian: حلوان) was an ancient town on the Zagros Mountains in western Iran, located on the entrance of the Paytak Pass, nowadays identified with the town of Sarpol-e Zahab.
    History

    Later Arab tradition, as recorded by al-Tabari, considered the town a Sasanian foundation dating to Kavadh I (reigned 488–496, 498–531), but it is far more ancient: it was known since Assyrian times as Khalmanu, when it lay on the border between Babylonia and Media.[1] To the Seleucids, it was known as Chala (Greek: Χάλα) and was the capital of the district of Chalonitis (Χαλωνῖτις).[1][2][3] According to Diodorus Siculus, the name derives from the settlement of Greek captives from Boeotia by Xerxes, who founded the town of Celonae or Kelonai (Κέλωναι).[3]

    Under the Sasanian Empire, the district of Hulwan was called [Khusraw] Shad Peroz ("the joy of Khusraw the victorious"), and the city itself probably Peroz Kavad ("victorious Kavad"). After the Muslim conquest of Persia, the words were Arabicized and became known as: [Khusraw] Shadh Firuz and Firuz Qubadh. Although like the rest of Media it belonged to the quarter (kust) of the North, under Khosrau II (r. 590–628) it was included in the quarter of the West, along with Mesopotamia, as the Sasanian rulers began to use the Zagros Mountains as a summer retreat away from the capital of Ctesiphon on the Mesopotamian plain.[4]

    After the Battle of Qadisiyya in 636, the last Sasanian ruler, Yazdegerd III (r. 632–651), took refuge in Hulwan for a while during his flight from Ctesiphon.[1][5] After another heavy defeat at the Battle of Jalula in 637, Yazdegerd left Hulwan for the eastern provinces of his realm,[6][7] and the town fell into the hands of the pursuing Arabs under Jarir ibn Abdallah Bajali in 640.[8] In the early 640s, the town was of strategic importance as a frontier post between the Mesopotamian lowlands and the still Sasanian-controlled Iranian plateau, and was garrisoned by troops, including Persian defectors (the Khamra), who were settled there under the Rashidun caliphs.[4]

    In the early Islamic period, until the 10th century, the town is described "as a flourishing town in a fertile district producing much fruit" (L. Lockhart).[1] It was situated on the Khurasan Road, and was the first town of the Jibal province to be met travelling eastwards from Baghdad.[9] Nevertheless, as in Sasanian times, it was fiscally tied to the Mesopotamian lowlands (the Sawad).[10] Under Mu'awiya I (r. 661–680) it became the capital of western Jibal (Mah al-Kufa).[10]

    According to the 10th-century traveller Ibn Hawqal, the town was half the size of Dinavar, and its houses were built of both stone and bricks. Though the climate was hot, dates, pomegranates and figs grew abundantly. According to the 10th-century hudud al-'alam the town's figs were dried and widely exported, while al-Muqaddasi adds that the town was surrounded by a wall with eight gates, and included, alongside a mosque, a Jewish synagogue.[11]

    The town was also a metropolitan province of the Church of the East between the 8th and 12th centuries.

    Around the turn of the 11th century, the town was governed by the semi-independent Annazid dynasty, until they were expelled by the Kakuyids.[1][12] It was taken and burned by the Seljuq Turks in 1046, while an earthquake in 1049 completed the town's destruction. Although rebuilt, it never recovered its former prosperity, and is now the town of Sarpol-e Zahab.[1]
    Last edited by Zagrosian; 04-09-2022 at 11:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post

    The Vahaduo site as we've known it has ceased to exist.
    Yes, it has been massively downgraded - I'm not sure why it was presented as some kind of upgrade.
    I can live without Davidski's standard calculator, which was of no use for West Asians anyway, but the updated spreadsheets for K12b and K13, and the G25 samples were very useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagrosian View Post
    Yes, it has been massively downgraded - I'm not sure why it was presented as some kind of upgrade.
    I can live without Davidski's standard calculator, which was of no use for West Asians anyway, but the updated spreadsheets for K12b and K13, and the G25 samples were very useful.

    Not downgraded. Github vahaduo is owned by a different person and he accused the vahaduo.genetics.ovh(the one with all the gedmatch calculators) site owner of stealing his calculator. then he took legal action and removed the site from google search results a few months ago but you could still access it with the URL. and now he has claimed the domain and erased the ovh site. he even went as far as deleting the ovh site from the archives in wayback machine by writing a complaint to wayback machine to take them down.

    From his reddit posts I think he did this because the ovh site was more popular and was getting more traffic and profit. and he was jealous and felt entitled to getting more money than him. he first removed the google search to fool people into searching vahaduo and going to the github site instead. but when that didn't work and people still went to the ovh site he decided to do this.

    honestly I am angered by this, the Github owner has destroyed vahaduo.genetics.ovh out of jealousy and an inferiority complex. he put out an arrogant message calling us "lazy" for relying on preset populations such as mdlp k16. dodecad k12...ect. I suggest people here not to use the github site don't give traffic to the website.
    Last edited by Arzanene; 04-10-2022 at 06:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagrosian View Post
    These are 4 results of Kurds from my linguistically and religiously diverse but (seemingly) autosomally homogeneous home town of Sarpole Zahab, Kermanshah province, Iran. Or Sarpeli Zahaw as it's locally known. It's where the ancient town of Hulwan used to be.
    Historically we have strong ties to Kalar & Diyala/Sirwan river on the other side of the Iran-Iraq border, besides the other towns in the Kermanshah province of course.
    https://imgur.com/EYy9eDi.jpg

    Language: Central & Southern Kurdish, formerly Gorani
    Tribal background: Jaf, Goran, Kalhor
    Religious background: Sunni, Shia, Yarsanism




    Very similar results despite the linguistic and religious diversity, but this is not entirely surprising.
    The mass conversion to Shi'ism in Kermanshah occurred very late compared to other provinces. Qajar, as opposed to the Savafid period. Also, intermarriages between the different religious groups are common compared to elsewhere in Middle East

    It's pretty ordinary West Iranian results, but one thing that stands out for me is the relatively high Atlantic_Med score.
    It's higher than among most Kurds who live much further west and even higher than among some Assyrians.
    I associate high Atlantic_Med score among Middle Easterners with Levantine admixture, but I don't notice any Levant-shift in this case. The oracles on the GEDMatch calculators prefer Iranian/Kurdish + a tiny bit of Sardinian, Greek or some other Mediterranean group.
    That seemed ridiculous at first considering the geographical distance but not as implausible after I took a look at the Wiki page of Hulwan:
    Very nice. Can you say which of the results is which group?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyp View Post
    Very nice. Can you say which of the results is which group?
    The groups are intertwined due to conversions, several language replacements and tribal merging from the Safavid into the Qajar era so it's a bit hard to draw a line, but..

    This one is Kalhor. Shia. Speaks Southern Kurdish.
    https://imgur.com/9oY8wcB.jpg

    This one is mine, which I have also previously posted. I'm from a merging of Jaf and Goran. Sunni background, but also a few conversions from Yarsanism and Shiism. I speak a local version of Central Kurdish(Sorani), which is a lot like Sanandaji/Ardalani but has heavier Kalhori and Gorani influence. Then again, Sanandaji dialect(Sorani) in itself is a Kurmanji-Gorani hybrid.
    https://imgur.com/MlRrABc.jpg

    This one is from a very similar background as me. Jaf. Sunni. Central Kurdish dialect.
    https://imgur.com/OlsAZEX.jpg
    Here's her cousin's results which I didn't share in the previous post. His combined Atlantic-Med and North-Euro scores are remarkably lower than hers and ours. It might be the calculator effect since his Caucasus score is higher. Or he has grandparents with Lor ancestry, which is not uncommon in the region.
    https://i.imgur.com/EAFSf3G.jpg

    Goran. Yarsan. Southern Kurdish dialect, grandparents spoke Gorani, which is considered a different language than Kurmanji. What's weird is that Kurmanji and Persian/Luri languages are in many ways closer to eachother than to the Gorani and Sorani languages/dialects that are geographically in-between.
    https://imgur.com/fBSXif6.jpg

  6. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arzanene View Post
    Not downgraded. Github vahaduo is owned by a different person and he accused the vahaduo.genetics.ovh(the one with all the gedmatch calculators) site owner of stealing his calculator. then he took legal action and removed the site from google search results a few months ago but you could still access it with the URL. and now he has claimed the domain and erased the ovh site. he even went as far as deleting the ovh site from the archives in wayback machine by writing a complaint to wayback machine to take them down.

    From his reddit posts I think he did this because the ovh site was more popular and was getting more traffic and profit. and he was jealous and felt entitled to getting more money than him. he first removed the google search to fool people into searching vahaduo and going to the github site instead. but when that didn't work and people still went to the ovh site he decided to do this.

    honestly I am angered by this, the Github owner has destroyed vahaduo.genetics.ovh out of jealousy and an inferiority complex. he put out an arrogant message calling us "lazy" for relying on preset populations such as mdlp k16. dodecad k12...ect. I suggest people here not to use the github site don't give traffic to the website.
    Ah, I see. Thanks, now it all makes sense.
    I was wondering what could possibly be the dangers of having access to these lists and calculators. Why is he pretending that this is good news? I guess the danger was him losing out on traffic to the other site.

    He does deserve immense credit for coding the Vahaduo calculator - I also really like the CustomPCA. But we need a page with lists of modern and ancient individual and avg coordinates and scores in different calculators, for reference and comparisons. It's not only very convenient, it improves the calculators.
    Why can't he add a section to his site that offers the same things as what genetics.ovh used to offer?

    Luckily I have saved a bunch of ancient and modern K12B and G25 coordinates, but not as many as I would like to have.
    Does anyone of you still have the updated K12b or individual modern/ancient G25 scaled coordinates?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagrosian View Post
    The groups are intertwined due to conversions, several language replacements and tribal merging from the Safavid into the Qajar era so it's a bit hard to draw a line, but..

    This one is Kalhor. Shia. Speaks Southern Kurdish.
    https://imgur.com/9oY8wcB.jpg

    This one is mine, which I have also previously posted. I'm from a merging of Jaf and Goran. Sunni background, but also a few conversions from Yarsanism and Shiism. I speak a local version of Central Kurdish(Sorani), which is a lot like Sanandaji/Ardalani but has heavier Kalhori and Gorani influence. Then again, Sanandaji dialect(Sorani) in itself is a Kurmanji-Gorani hybrid.
    https://imgur.com/MlRrABc.jpg

    This one is from a very similar background as me. Jaf. Sunni. Central Kurdish dialect.
    https://imgur.com/OlsAZEX.jpg
    Here's her cousin's results which I didn't share in the previous post. His combined Atlantic-Med and North-Euro scores are remarkably lower than hers and ours. It might be the calculator effect since his Caucasus score is higher. Or he has grandparents with Lor ancestry, which is not uncommon in the region.
    https://i.imgur.com/EAFSf3G.jpg

    Goran. Yarsan. Southern Kurdish dialect, grandparents spoke Gorani, which is considered a different language than Kurmanji. What's weird is that Kurmanji and Persian/Luri languages are in many ways closer to eachother than to the Gorani and Sorani languages/dialects that are geographically in-between.
    https://imgur.com/fBSXif6.jpg
    Great! Let me know if you have any other Iranian results

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyp View Post
    Great! Let me know if you have any other Iranian results
    I've been looking for other Iranian results myself.

    Does anyone have any results from Ahvaz/Abadan Persians? I've seen many results from Khuzestani Lors and Arabs but not urban Persians.

    Or how about Persian/Tat from NW Iran?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagrosian View Post
    This one is mine, which I have also previously posted. I'm from a merging of Jaf and Goran. Sunni background, but also a few conversions from Yarsanism and Shiism. I speak a local version of Central Kurdish(Sorani), which is a lot like Sanandaji/Ardalani but has heavier Kalhori and Gorani influence. Then again, Sanandaji dialect(Sorani) in itself is a Kurmanji-Gorani hybrid.
    https://imgur.com/MlRrABc.jpg
    If you have G25 coordinates, please run this model for me
    Code:
    KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA,0.1238396,0.1092712,0.057247,0.0803624,0.006832,0.0277774,0.0055462,0.0020308,-0.0176302,-0.028356,-0.0004872,-0.0001198,0.0004164,-0.0231206,0.0219864,0.0119594,-0.007171,-0.001723,-0.0012318,0.0021012,-0.0054654,0.00413,-0.0005918,0.0059282,-0.0022992
    MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave,0.0247883,-0.4316,0.0744604,-0.0324077,-0.0641144,-0.0424223,0.0110716,0.0203838,0.0101353,0.0177378,-0.0425639,-0.0023647,-0.000165,0.0003823,4.51e-05,-0.0017383,0.0008403,-0.0046594,-0.0001953,0.0198567,-0.0247064,-0.0017723,-0.0200073,-0.0059041,0.0012639
    RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA,0.037562,-0.424491,0.154997,0.001938,-0.14495,-0.085341,0.019506,0.031845,0.028633,0.005832,0.086878,-0.00015,0.011298,-0.04803,-0.045466,-0.027711,0.000261,0.006714,0.004148,-0.009379,0.026204,0.001607,0.002218,0.004338,0.008502
    IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858,0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
    IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C,0.0780205,0.0973985,-0.1210557,-0.0128319,-0.0964655,0.0129052,0.0135666,-0.0041957,-0.0710069,-0.0366129,-0.0049454,-0.0008311,-0.0011082,-0.0034781,0.0189268,0.0286995,-0.0069221,0.0043305,0.0072791,-0.0235001,0.0067043,-0.0146134,-0.0055349,-0.0227852,0.01339
    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
    Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0861261,0.1455592,-0.0646134,-0.1002072,-0.014596,-0.0394563,-0.0045434,-0.0097249,0.0131382,0.0089382,0.0103465,-0.0088707,0.0219027,0.0020119,-0.007316,0.005411,-0.0024898,0.004217,0.0036812,0.0073607,0.0047534,0.0040982,-0.0049357,-0.0025361,-0.0014427
    KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP,-0.528139,0.049761,-0.012445,0.010013,-0.016926,0.008367,0.098469,-0.08192,0.06422,-0.052848,-0.013316,0.018733,-0.029583,-0.011973,0.017372,-0.007425,0.027902,0.03978,-0.008925,-0.004127,-0.005865,0.017806,-0.007518,0.003494,0.00467
    CHN_Yellow_River_LN,0.0166466,-0.4503874,0.0109365,-0.0657709,0.0545101,0.0217886,0.0037894,0.0012404,-0.0097149,0.0040092,-0.0851524,-0.0100032,0.0123945,-0.0059179,-0.0088896,-0.000895,0.001483,-0.0003801,-0.0048392,-0.0075191,0.0172975,0.007543,0.0128639,-0.0006476,0.0073496

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    If you have G25 coordinates, please run this model for me
    I don't, unfortunately.
    Are IllustrativeDNA the only ones who offer G25 coordinates?

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