Southeast England was 80% replaced by Anglo-Saxons in the Early Middle Ages

[Africanwidow]

If you take West Germanic as simply Germanic rather than Gaulish-Jastorf mix.

Otherwise it's 1/3 Jastorf, 1/3 Gaul, 1/3 native Briton (simplified).

There is no such thing as a West Germanic genetic group. I don't understand how people are still retarded enough to confuse ethno-linguistic labels with AU genetics.

England_EMA/Continental Northern European (CNE) is pretty much identical to Jastorf Iron Age and it's spread or simply the spread of Germanic wether West or East is specific to the Early Middle Ages.

Navy blue is the core CNE/Jastorf IA zone known as the Bottleneck and from there you see that Germanic spread onwards during the EMA.

[Africanwidow]

Great to finally have the paper as a reference, although basically just confirming what we'd seen in the previews. The question of Norse/Danish influence vs Anglo-Saxon still remains vague, and I still can't get my head around the France IA influence, when and where exactly most of it came to England. From how evenly it's spread over the bulk of England, parallel with Anglo-Saxon ancestry, you would think it came early-ish, mostly alongside Anglo-Saxons as part of the Frankish influence the paper mentions, but then it's not seen in the early medieval sites outside Southern England below the Thames. However that is possibly just a sampling issue, since Frankish objects are found in good numbers in the Midlands, East Anglia, and East Yorkshire. I personally don't believe the majority of France IA ancestry in English came after 1066 with Normans, although no doubt a significant percentage of it did. 40+% French in East Anglia coming with Normans is just not credible IMO, there is no historical or other evidence that it was a hotspot of Norman/French migration in the later Middle Ages, let alone having such a drastic population replacement.

The question of Danish vikings and Anglo-Saxons will be irrelevant for a long while since they were both CNE anyways. Norwegian vikings is another story though.

I agree with French IA... Seems clear to me that Frankish influence correlates strongly with French IA admixture otherwise it would account for a significant portion of CNE in South-Eastern England which would drastically reduce Anglo-Saxon admixture. That to me is telling that the Franks weren't most likely Germanic in the proper sense (aka CNE) but were forced to migrate southwards due to the incoming Saxon pirates from the north.... Some of the old tribes in the Netherlands gathered around as the 'free Franks' to wield resistance against the Saxons with the big knives.

[J.S.]

I agree with French IA... Seems clear to me that Frankish influence correlates strongly with French IA admixture otherwise it would account for a significant portion of CNE in South-Eastern England which would drastically reduce Anglo-Saxon admixture. That to me is telling that the Franks weren't most likely Germanic in the proper sense (aka CNE) but were forced to migrate southwards due to the incoming Saxon pirates from the north.... Some of the old tribes in the Netherlands gathered around as the 'free Franks' to wield resistance against the Saxons with the big knives.

https://youtu.be/BBUea_HM83s?t=2134

[Africanwidow]

https://youtu.be/BBUea_HM83s?t=2134

He's making an assumption since no one knows what the Franks genetically were, but I generally with what he says. France today is still very much Gaulish and the genetic Frankish input in France is pretty much speculation at this point.

[Roy]

There is no such thing as a West Germanic genetic group. I don't understand how people are still retarded enough to confuse ethno-linguistic labels with AU genetics.

England_EMA/Continental Northern European (CNE) is pretty much identical to Jastorf Iron Age and it's spread or simply the spread of Germanic wether West or East is specific to the Early Middle Ages.

Navy blue is the core CNE/Jastorf IA zone known as the Bottleneck and from there you see that Germanic spread onwards during the EMA.

Is there any sample that is 100% CNE? What is this based on even?

[Africanwidow]

Is there any sample that is 100% CNE? What is this based on even?

Yes, there are 100% CNE samples even samples from Early Anglo-Saxons England. Fresh off the boat pirates... I am practically 100% CNE too.

To quantitatively estimate these ancestry compositions, we decomposed ancestral sources using a supervised clustering approach implemented in the software ADMIXTURE48. Specifically, we assembled modern populations into two metapopulations that serve as proxies for the source ancestries in early medieval England defined above: CNE (n = 407) and WBI (n = 667). We confirmed that these two present-day metapopulations accurately represent the ancient admixture sources by testing their relationships to the ancient individuals from England using FST statistics and F4 statistics of the form F4(Yoruba, Test; WBI, CNE) (Extended Data Fig. 1 and 2).

The ancient genomes fall onto a separate cline, with most of the early medieval individuals from Dutch, German and Danish sites plotting on top of present-day continental northern Europeans (CNEs; northern Germans and Danish), whereas Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Britain and Ireland cluster together with WBI (Fig. 2b). Of note, in contrast to the preceding Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Britain and Ireland, the majority of the early medieval samples from England (England EMA) plot together with the ancient individuals from the continental North Sea area along with the present-day CNEs. The divergence between prehistoric and early medieval individuals from England is also seen in the distribution of genetic distances (FST) as well as shared alleles (F4) on both the population (Extended Data Fig. 1) and the individual scale (Supplementary Fig. 3.3).

[celticdragongod]

That finally puts the basic ancestral proportions of the English to rest though. I've been frustrated for years with the inadequacy of earlier studies on this question, particularly the 2016 Schiffels paper that extrapolated the English to be mainly native Briton from a few Celtic and Anglo-Saxon samples, which many people took as gospel. We can finally acknowledge that the English are not mostly Brittonic; are heavily Germanic and Anglo-Saxon; are a different people to Welsh and Scottish; and are transitional between them and Dutch/Flemish.

So the Welsh and the Scots are native to Britain while the English are just German invaders.

[celticdragongod]

Modern-day Northwest Europeans vs their IA counterparts

Denmark_Pre-Viking,0.1252055,0.1291415,0.065618833,0.0544255,0.042520667,0.019104,0.002976667,0.007999667,0.006272,-0.007228833,-0.004953,0.001948333,-0.0077055,-0.003509167,0.017326667,0.0012375,-0.0122125,0.002639333,0.004315667,0.001604833,0.0057815,0.004265833,-0.001561167,0.008495167,0.0002395
England_IA,0.129338492,0.135044578,0.060620611,0.046992529,0.039762672,0.01626025,0.00253975,0.004535734,0.007257217,0.006301348,-0.004834508,0.006446139,-0.015074443,-0.014870615,0.021278619,0.006059992,-0.00585393,0.001578922,0.001392918,0.003102902,0.005560369,0.00365693,-0.002250283,0.005456922,-0.000703258
France_North_IA,0.128620105,0.140784368,0.055198474,0.034527,0.042712263,0.010436368,0.001645,0.003084842,0.010000105,0.011970158,-0.001487053,0.005560895,-0.011853737,-0.007960474,0.013957789,0.001723684,-0.009765053,0.003033842,0.003989211,0.000645053,0.000735579,0.002746421,-0.000901737,-0.003824211,-0.001058789
Germany_North_Roman,0.11837588,0.13087637,0.06689175,0.062944625,0.041546125,0.023461625,-0.0035545,0.00775925,0.003604625,-0.00829175,-0.00576475,0.004065125,-0.006559625,-0.0109925,0.02563425,0.011618125,-0.009876625,-0.00007925,0.004258125,0.00925425,0.008625375,0.005116,0.000446625,0.011733625,-0.001077625
Netherlands_IA,0.130327333,0.127449,0.063104667,0.062554333,0.037801833,0.016872667,0.003994833,0.003153667,-0.001158833,-0.008473833,-0.005142333,0.0071685,-0.013899667,-0.016904667,0.024927333,0.0028065,-0.0039765,-0.000865833,0.0022835,0.005502833,0.006239,0.005214,0.002095167,0.0092985,-0.001097667
Norway_Pre-Viking,0.1257745,0.127449167,0.0739785,0.0646,0.042674667,0.023752167,0.0061885,0.0101535,0.002863167,-0.010995,-0.003951333,0.001024167,-0.0059465,-0.007959333,0.021579333,0.010076667,-0.004042,0.002766167,0.003435833,0.005398333,0.009213,0.000144167,-0.000493,0.007952833,0.003153333
Scotland_IA,0.130177737,0.131430895,0.062423526,0.057732,0.034548895,0.021357263,0.003364316,0.005720368,0.002422,0.000508316,-0.004213579,0.006641421,-0.014263632,-0.015268895,0.025208263,0.005827,-0.013429526,0.001500211,0.000899789,0.004719421,0.006619895,0.004497,-0.000895316,0.007166421,-0.000296158
Sweden_Pre-Viking,0.126913,0.127957,0.0705215,0.062662,0.0457005,0.0211955,0.0019975,0.006923,0.0065445,-0.006652,0.000812,0.002248,-0.004534,-0.0009635,0.019408,0.0018565,-0.010887,0.0023435,0.007353,0.003877,0.0016225,0.0041425,0.0013555,0.0159055,0.0007185
BelgianA,0.1297584,0.14061713,0.054506467,0.031374067,0.0383046,0.0141306,0.003666,0.0055537333,0.0068038667,0.0068521333,-0.0049906667,0.0051554,-0.011337933,-0.0056976667,0.014793533,-0.00067193333,-0.0108306,0.0013006667,0.0024972667,-0.00021686667,0.003552,0.0025225333,0.00059153333,0.0080732,0.00058273333
BelgianB,0.12846827,0.141091,0.0504586,0.0280364,0.0386328,0.010504733,0.0035093333,0.0049998,0.0063402667,0.011517267,-0.0041354667,0.0040963333,-0.0108522,-0.010908867,0.0125768,0.0050118667,-0.0021556667,0.0024407333,0.0013660667,0.00027506667,0.0038515333,0.0034376,-0.00070653333,0.0093023333,-0.0022032667
BelgianC,0.1268748,0.14298667,0.0532494,0.023148333,0.0405818,0.0095009333,0.00141,0.0047384,0.010826067,0.014396533,-0.0031611333,0.0063144667,-0.012269467,-0.0093032,0.012033867,0.0017148,-0.0049545333,0.0010978667,0.0015922,0.00036666667,0.0027284,0.0028440667,-0.0011420667,0.0093344667,-0.0019318667
Danish,0.13124785,0.13506538,0.066377901,0.052437654,0.041302938,0.019456938,0.0051584444,0.0074014074,0.0034365185,-0.002558,-0.0053588148,0.0034801852,-0.008506679,-0.0070934691,0.018669111,0.0061171358,-0.0065192593,0.0020474198,0.0032402099,0.0043461728,0.0056396914,0.0024348889,0.00069234568,0.013773951,0.00020109877
Dutch,0.1274407,0.13417834,0.060271163,0.04407588,0.040843518,0.016397428,0.005402259,0.0072633133,0.0042087289,0.0019244518,-0.0056346506,0.0044274036,-0.0098456265,-0.0086760542,0.01783003,0.0056230843,-0.0065161145,0.0017476928,0.003908741,0.0028160723,0.004480006,0.0033848193,-0.0000051385542,0.013892114,-0.00065574699
English,0.13185505,0.137043,0.061788263,0.044013,0.039229947,0.016748105,0.0049844737,0.0057447895,0.0052637368,0.0056781053,-0.0047690526,0.0056161053,-0.012589211,-0.010350737,0.020615263,0.0035520526,-0.010368895,0.004094,0.003685,0.0029618947,0.0059368947,0.0034036316,-0.0032693158,0.013793842,0.000031578947
English_Cornwall,0.13019623,0.13975246,0.061354615,0.043182615,0.041901308,0.016411538,0.0034346154,0.0063902308,0.0064819231,0.0069669231,-0.0046342308,0.0064787692,-0.013745462,-0.010247615,0.020754846,0.003172,-0.012527,0.0021146154,0.0037613077,0.0032419231,0.0048087692,0.0038712308,-0.00075838462,0.014367077,0.00069092308
French_Brittany,0.13146573,0.13834055,0.05785035,0.039284875,0.03916875,0.015813075,0.0031549,0.00421135,0.008186,0.0094899,-0.005131425,0.005590025,-0.01436805,-0.013101675,0.0183426,0.004398675,-0.007301575,0.0012795,-0.00046195,0.001772675,0.0044671,0.00178685,-0.00125405,0.010546525,0.0006586
French_Nord,0.12827521,0.14054315,0.051357061,0.025605091,0.038272818,0.0088906061,0.0010966667,0.0044193939,0.0083730303,0.012016636,-0.003484,0.0040328182,-0.010861303,-0.0081823333,0.011199091,0.0025432121,-0.0046069394,0.0022266364,0.004094697,0.0010307879,0.0021326667,0.0015249394,-0.0015724242,0.007470697,0.000014545455
French_Paris,0.12717136,0.14143555,0.050431273,0.023990091,0.040902727,0.0093048182,0.0027985455,0.0054543636,0.011602182,0.018173909,-0.0077060909,0.0068120909,-0.012906545,-0.010384364,0.013769545,0.0060630909,-0.0018255455,0.0046643636,0.0027081818,-0.00097781818,0.0022007273,0.0035747273,-0.0012325455,0.011140545,-0.0019050909
French_Pas-de-Calais,0.12786133,0.140482,0.054305333,0.026809,0.042161667,0.012736333,0.0041516667,0.0013073333,0.0085216667,0.012452667,-0.0080113333,0.002198,-0.010009667,-0.012019,0.013662667,0.008132,-0.000478,0.001816,-0.003645,0.004252,0.0099826667,0.0014426667,-0.002547,0.0059043333,-0.001437
French_Seine-Maritime,0.1360185,0.1370965,0.0452545,0.0295545,0.039084,0.0167335,0.00423,-0.000692,0.003988,0.006014,-0.003735,0.0074935,-0.0075815,-0.0016515,0.0142505,0.0035135,-0.0079535,-0.002344,0.0009425,-0.0050025,0.0039305,0.0055025,0.000863,0.0042775,-0.0044905
German,0.13026259,0.13737923,0.057981114,0.038706848,0.040003494,0.015646139,0.0040665316,0.005786481,0.003526038,0.00188,-0.0044132911,0.0023732152,-0.0053705949,-0.0025417089,0.0085125063,0.0032912911,-0.0032727975,0.0016630506,0.0033668734,0.0017191266,0.0031399873,0.0020050253,0.000071810127,0.0083051772,0.00027741772
German_Erlangen,0.1285691,0.13723285,0.056162791,0.038075433,0.038592642,0.015097493,0.0042230299,0.005441806,0.0040996418,-0.00011149254,-0.0031192985,0.0012100746,-0.0037031493,0.001891791,0.004430194,0.0018166567,-0.0018311493,0.0018001194,0.0031105672,0.00059725373,-0.00031471642,0.001360194,0.0018303582,0.0067028209,0.0000017164179
German_Hamburg,0.12828529,0.13399012,0.063467176,0.048526,0.040061706,0.020375471,0.0075617647,0.0091082941,0.0029597059,-0.0035588824,-0.0038781765,0.000088176471,-0.0025097059,0.00075288235,0.0094365294,0.0032679412,-0.0045557647,0.0025561765,0.0039926471,0.00068423529,0.0017395294,0.0015565882,0.0027185294,0.0073503529,-0.0010354118
Icelandic,0.13269867,0.13362667,0.067819,0.056309667,0.039366333,0.022961917,0.0033488333,0.0085188333,0.0026418333,0.000060666667,-0.0054805833,0.00517025,-0.0063675,-0.0090830833,0.0230725,0.0052924167,-0.011690917,0.0019109167,0.0017389167,0.0038873333,0.0092545,0.00280275,-0.00084216667,0.014017917,0.00082825
Irish,0.13336052,0.13409771,0.061168941,0.0488642,0.037787988,0.019351706,0.0032928118,0.0047128706,0.0035683294,0.0029264588,-0.0069711882,0.0058395412,-0.014189188,-0.014076341,0.025935306,0.0052146235,-0.011145553,0.0018944353,0.00059741176,0.0017758,0.0051145412,0.0012787059,0.00029287059,0.014407353,0.00066074118
Norwegian,0.1320917,0.1294546,0.068051375,0.054530475,0.040322775,0.019870925,0.004159525,0.006091925,0.00615105,-0.002286975,-0.004644425,0.004275025,-0.009235525,-0.0101497,0.02025285,0.006556575,-0.007200425,0.0033097,0.00297585,0.00410815,0.005680575,0.004089825,0.0008873,0.01410725,-0.00006885
Orcadian,0.1306689,0.1342528,0.0629793,0.04845,0.0387149,0.0175423,0.001786,0.0039229,0.0050312,0.001786,-0.0068367,0.0048108,-0.0119078,-0.0108308,0.0223531,0.0030364,-0.0123864,0.0034712,0.0026774,0.0003001,0.0049539,0.0022504,-0.0021567,0.0100374,-0.0005988
Scottish,0.13146568,0.13423125,0.062265357,0.047042643,0.039105964,0.017281214,0.0035502143,0.0051756071,0.0035718929,0.0028246429,-0.0056140357,0.0050473214,-0.011680607,-0.011973143,0.023023964,0.0031253571,-0.011254929,0.0027736429,0.0025499286,0.0014516071,0.0042246071,0.0033076429,-0.00065589286,0.013556071,-0.00076982143
Shetlandic,0.13431133,0.133373,0.060842,0.047911667,0.040417667,0.019429333,0.00423,0.0046923333,0.003545,-0.0041306667,-0.0039513333,0.006744,-0.011545667,-0.012615333,0.021308,0.0026076667,-0.0087356667,0.001436,0.002975,-0.0024596667,0.0032026667,0.0026793333,0.0062853333,0.018797667,0.0026743333
Swedish,0.1321925,0.12588546,0.072642386,0.058971485,0.040263287,0.020789812,0.0063799901,0.0092943465,0.0036490396,-0.0066633168,-0.0042028317,0.00053264356,-0.0030453168,-0.0033520198,0.014593317,0.0058654752,-0.0051056733,0.0016218713,0.0029906733,0.0050147723,0.0067726832,0.0025256436,0.0012532178,0.01159402,0.00021221782
Welsh,0.1319779,0.13816285,0.0601319,0.0430236,0.04059215,0.0166218,0.0033135,0.00639205,0.0062789,0.0043372,-0.00423025,0.00591215,-0.0129112,-0.01097545,0.02059545,0.00570795,-0.00870315,0.00235635,0.003086,0.00200715,0.0049849,0.0038518,-0.00001235,0.0112243,0.00080825

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.01700079 Scottish
0.01720419 Shetlandic
0.01810893 English_Cornwall
0.01849197 Irish
0.01901992 Welsh
0.01905220 English
0.01923543 Orcadian
0.01935998 Danish
0.01968105 Dutch
0.02022026 Norwegian
0.02186691 Icelandic
0.02364574 Scotland_IA
0.02433280 England_IA
0.02452254 French_Brittany
0.02509882 Denmark_Pre-Viking
0.02795790 German_Hamburg
0.02830424 Sweden_Pre-Viking
0.02844862 BelgianA
0.02860468 German
0.02958334 Netherlands_IA
0.02970450 Swedish
0.03369175 German_Erlangen
0.03388828 Germany_North_Roman
0.03561688 France_North_IA
0.03634164 Norway_Pre-Viking

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 1.4100% / 0.01410038
42.6 English_Cornwall
38.4 Shetlandic
15.4 Sweden_Pre-Viking
3.6 Scotland_IA

[J. Ketch]

So the Welsh and the Scots are native to Britain while the English are just German invaders.

No. The English, Welsh and Scottish are all native to Britain. Possibly only the Welsh are mostly descended from Celtic Britons, Brittonic ancestry in England ranges from 11 to 57%.

[zebruh]

Whats so surprising about this. Its always been said vikings were ruthless