Serbians are mostly Whiter than Iberians, Western Asians and North Caucasians.

[Sorab12]

Cleraly you knowledge of ethnic Serbs is limited .Serbia has many minorty groups and most of them are darker than Serbs .Only minority that is on level with Serbs are Slovakians and Ruthenians

In the people of Serbia and Bosnia, I think the Slav element really
preponderates; they are taller and finer men than
the Russians, but have the same make of body and
often of countenance ; and a great many of them
have light brown hair and answer to Procopius's
often-quoted description of their forefathers"
John Beddoe
https://archive.org/stream/anthropol...duoft_djvu.txt

Large from Belgrade protesters (one gypsy among them )

Besides i posted plenty of group pictures of ethnic Serbs in several previous pages in this thread

[Damião de Góis]

Supercomputer and I have debated over this subject, but according to Google Translate dark eyes for Tamagnini meant light brown/dark brown or a mixture thereof. Since ToeKneeHwin's data for light eyes was very similar to Tamagnini's non-dark eyes he maintained that the category includes hazel shades but for me literal is literal.

My initial reply to Supercomputer:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6212389

Thanks for letting me know you previous account was "Dawnbringer". This puts things in perspective because i remember this account was here trying to lecture everyone on pigmentation. From this new account of yours i already know you like to generalize and speculate even when you have almost no data, and even you admited you do this.

Since you are a native Portuguese speaker you are free to confirm the accuracy of the translation:


This is what Hulse wrote as documented by Coon:


https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XI15.htm

You judge for yourself but pure brown for both sources appears to be literally pure brown. Other observers like Hoyos Sainz had more rigid standards of light eyes which is suggested in the bold text. If the standards were matched up I suspect there would be less of a North-South and more of an East-West cline in Iberian pigmentation compared to what Supercomputer's map indicates.

The Tamagnini and Hoyos Sanz studies measure exaclty the same things, they have a category for blue eyes, one for "light mixed" and another for the rest. The results are very similar for both studies, which is not surprising for two populations with the same origin, that were under the same invasions and that were separeted politically in the 12th century. Supercomputer's map shows this.

Also the Tamagnini and Hoyos Sanz studies are the only studies avaliable for Iberia in which it's possible to know what is being measured.


You however, disregard the Hoyos Sanz study (but not the Tamagnini one) and are come up with a different study, which you don't have, to support your claim that "portuguese are like MENAs while south sparniards are like serbs". A study which claims andalusians are 40% light eyed.

Even Coon was suprised by this number and went on to speculate this must be due to Nordic Berber admixture (). He also speculates that if other regions were measured the same way, Spain would show higher blondism elsewhere. And i ask the same, if Andalusia is 40% light eyed, regions to the north would be what? 50, 60% light eyed?

Seems very dubious. but for you it isn't and you use it to claim that "portuguese are MENAS".

Do you have anything else to support your claim or is this Coon quote all you got?

[Florstadt]

Why did you not respond to me when I quoted you here?:


What shaped your communication style? It is actually quite entertaining so I did not mean that inquiry as a personal attack. Is it quite typical of Israelis as I heard?

Well, in my formative years, I mastered the art of 'pilpul.' It's like the Talmudic version of intense textual analysis, where you dive deep into the nitty-gritty of interpretations and try to untangle any conceptual puzzles or contradictions. So, blame it on my childhood intellectual gymnastics – it's all in good fun, really.

But the Pilpul is not limited to the Talmud. We Jews are debate champs, no doubt. From computer science and the economy to lunch choices and even gender determination – yup, everything's fair game. And here's the kicker: secular Jews and their religious counterparts are both diving into the gender debate, but with their own twists. Secular crew? They're like, 'Let's not base it on anatomy.' Meanwhile, the religious bunch? They've got their own spin, figuring out the gender of babies with unclear bits or born with both. So, in the end, we're all arguing about the same thing, just from different angles. It's a debate party where everyone's got a ticket to the gender dilemma showdown.

With a surprise guest appearance, we've got you, with Bernie Sanders' self-hate vibes making a comeback. Because, you know, teaming up with an anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic redneck and proclaiming Jewish ancestry is like borrowing a page from Bernie's 'Self-Hate Chronicles.' Life's throwing some interesting characters my way.

[Melkiirs]

Thanks for letting me know you previous account was "Dawnbringer". This puts things in perspective because i remember this account was here trying to lecture everyone on pigmentation. From this new account of yours i already know you like to generalize and speculate even when you have almost no data, and even you admited you do this.



The Tamagnini and Hoyos Sanz studies measure exaclty the same things, they have a category for blue eyes, one for "light mixed" and another for the rest. The results are very similar for both studies, which is not surprising for two populations with the same origin, that were under the same invasions and that were separeted politically in the 12th century. Supercomputer's map shows this.

Also the Tamagnini and Hoyos Sanz studies are the only studies avaliable for Iberia in which it's possible to know what is being measured.


You however, disregard the Hoyos Sanz study (but not the Tamagnini one) and are come up with a different study, which you don't have, to support your claim that "portuguese are like MENAs while south sparniards are like serbs". A study which claims andalusians are 40% light eyed.

Even Coon was suprised by this number and went on to speculate this must be due to Nordic Berber admixture (). He also speculates that if other regions were measured the same way, Spain would show higher blondism elsewhere. And i ask the same, if Andalusia is 40% light eyed, regions to the north would be what? 50, 60% light eyed?

Seems very dubious. but for you it isn't and you use it to claim that "portuguese are MENAS".

Do you have anything else to support your claim or is this Coon quote all you got?

Tamagnini‘s and Hulse’s dark categories were restricted to pure brown. Supercomputer‘s light eyes are supposed to exclude dark hazel/greenish which he notes on his final map. This is an inconsistency but he decided that darker hazel would have had be included in dark by Tamagnini to make sense. Hoyos Sainz likely included darker hazel as brown/dark as Coon suggests which is why I am apprehensive about comparing his results with Tamagnini. That is what the whole issue comes down to.

If we only consider pure light eyes the difference between Portuguese and Andalusians is much less with Hulse finding 10% among the Andalusian males. If dark is literally pure brown Portuguese would be closer to MENAs than Southern Europeans. Coon writes that 83% of Lebanese have pure brown eyes which is not far off. 7.13% pure light is more similar to Southern Europeans than MENAs. Coon found only 43% of Riffians with pure brown eyes which is very low for the MENA region but pure light and pronouncedly light mixed is not higher than 7.13% (rather around 5.7%).

I don’t know what to think because of the conflicting information. Maybe it is easier to be consistent only considering pure light eyes?

[Damião de Góis]

Tamagnini‘s and Hulse’s dark categories were restricted to pure brown. Supercomputer‘s light eyes are supposed to exclude dark hazel/greenish which he notes on his final map. This is an inconsistency but he decided that darker hazel would have had be included in dark by Tamagnini to make sense. Hoyos Sainz likely included darker hazel as brown/dark as Coon suggests which is why I am apprehensive about comparing his results with Tamagnini. That is what the whole issue comes down to.

It's not only pure brown for Tamagnini, not even your google translate of the description shows that. Like i said he has a category for blue, another for "light mixed", and a third category with everything else which he calls dark, there are only 3 categories. Hoyos Sanz has exactly the same. I have no idea what Hulse is measuring, since i haven't read that study. And neither have you, since you obviously don't have the study.

If we only consider pure light eyes the difference between Portuguese and Andalusians is much less with Hulse finding 10% among the Andalusian males. If dark is literally pure brown Portuguese would be closer to MENAs than Southern Europeans. Coon writes that 83% of Lebanese have pure brown eyes which is not far off. 7.13% pure light is more similar to Southern Europeans then MENAs. Coon found only 43% of Riffians with pure brown eyes which is very low for the MENA region but pure light and pronouncedly light mixed is not higher than 7.13% (rather around 5.7%).

I don’t know what to think because of the conflicting information. Maybe it is easier to be consistent only considering pure light eyes?

Do you have anything else to sustain your claim that portuguese are MENAS? Or was that it?

This was one of the most ridiculous discussions i ever had on TA, really.

[Scarface F]

Cleraly you knowledge of ethnic Serbs is limited .Serbia has many minorty groups and most of them are darker than Serbs .Only minority that is on level with Serbs are Slovakians and Ruthenians

Lol. Slovaks and Ruthenians are much lighter than Serbs.

[majevica]

Lol. Slovaks and Ruthenians are much lighter than Serbs.

I think he meant Romanians and Bulgarians

[interes]

Lol. Slovaks and Ruthenians are much lighter than Serbs.

arnot serbs lighter than croatians?

[Melkiirs]

It's not only pure brown for Tamagnini, not even your google translate of the description shows that. Like i said he has a category for blue, another for "light mixed", and a third category with everything else which he calls dark, there are only 3 categories. Hoyos Sanz has exactly the same. I have no idea what Hulse is measuring, since i haven't read that study. And neither have you, since you obviously don't have the study.



Do you have anything else to sustain your claim that portuguese are MENAS? Or was that it?

This was one of the most ridiculous discussions i ever had on TA, really.

"Dark eyes, corresponding to the terms P4-P8, in which the stroma of the iris appears evenly employing more or less dark brownish pigment, to which may be superimposed a lighter, brownish pigment with varying distribution. They comprise the so-called black and brown eyes of different shades and aspects.“

This description clearly corresponds to #1-6 of the Martin scale which Supercomputer considered dark for his map. Supercomputer considered light eyes around Martin #8/9-16 excluding dark green and hazel. Thus there is an inconsistency. Coon suggests that other anthropologists like Hainz included dark greenish/hazel eyes with dark eyes unlike Hulse.

„Sixty per cent of Andalusians have pure brown eyes, of which the majority are dark brown, although light brown and mixed-brown irises occur. Mixed-light eyes comprise 30 per cent of the series, with a prev-alence of greenish-brown shades, while 10 per cent of the whole sample possesses bluish-gray eyes, on the gray rather than blue side. A ratio of 40 per cent of light or incipiently light eyes is higher than one expects to find among racially pure Mediterraneans, and indicates the infusion of Nordic blood, from both North European and Berber sources. Probably if the rest of Spain were studied for eye color in the same way, higher ratios of eye blondism would appear elsewhere, since most of the green-brown eyes in this sample are predominantly dark.“

Sainz grouped pure brown and hazel together unlike Tamagnini. Sainz called them grey-brown:


Portuguese may thus still overall have darker eyes than Spaniards, but I‘m not 100% sure. Both have less pure light overall then Serbs where it typically reaches around 20%.

[Varda]

Most of the members of my family and closer cousins have/had green eyes. 3 of 4 my grandparent had green eyes, only paternal granda had light brown. My maternal grandpa had green eyes most of the life, but for some reason they turned to blue in his old age.