Ashkenazi Jews are only 1/4 Israelite

[Paraksenos]

The Imperial Roma samples have 2 homogenous clusters. 30% of the samples are homogenous Aegean and are identical to the homogenous Roman era West Anatolians from Mugla. They are genetic profile that existed since Hellenistic times in the Aegean and were already homogenous in the Roman era.

The other cluster clusters with South Italians and is a mix of Aegeans + Italic-Gaul related and possible single digit % of direct Levantine.


0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

These are the 2 clusters without the outliers

Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672







Source pops for Jews:

0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.1087389,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica,0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664
 
4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455
 
9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.073985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586
 
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694
 

9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334

An extra model as a test with modern Levantines as a proxy

I used Lebanese Christians, Lebanese Druze and Samaritans

[Paraksenos]

Efharisto


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 1.8618% / 0.01861803
66.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
18.6 East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age
15.0 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

try one without Thracian

[Dušan]

try one without Thracian

Getting Albos without Thracian.

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0031% / 0.02003108
64.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
23.4 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)
12.2 Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age

[Gallop]

Spoiler!

0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica, 0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0 051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455

9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SGA204_noUDG.SG,0.073985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586

8.North_Euro:Slavicolish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.04 06754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239 ,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321 ,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694


9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334
South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672
East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321

I put everything I found on this page, because what if there's something left in the pot?


Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.2218% / 0.03221821
89.4 Croatia_Iron_Age
8.2 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759
1.2 Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SGA204_noUDG.SG
1.2 North_Euro:Slavicolish

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.8477% / 0.02847698
83.4 Croatia_Iron_Age
10.6 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759
6.0 North_Euro:Slavicolish

Target: brother_scaled
Distance: 2.7610% / 0.02761012
89.0 Croatia_Iron_Age
11.0 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759



Doesn't it say that Western Ashkenazi's get 5% Slavic?


Honestly, I find it hard to believe that our clusters separated thousands of years ago and the haplogroup ended up separately in different European countries. To clarify, Spain is in orange because it counts two users, but in reality it should be in light yellow because we are my father and I. As you can see, Poland is the one with more users coming from this cluster.

[Peterski]

Rather: In other words I don't at all make up such a claim.

You made a claim about having to prove that 4 grandparents were Germans before being admitted to a guild.

Can you show your sources for this claim and did it apply just to one specific city or to a number of cities?

Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ates_of_Poland

Yes I knew about Jewish coins in Poland.

A more interesting question is how did these coins end up in a museum in Berlin? Probably due to Nazi looting during WW2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder#Poland

[Annihilus]

fuck jews, I have had it with them

[Johnson Reed]

What do you mean by Imperial Romans? People on Italian peninsula? Why and how did Italians become more Northern European since the fall of Roman Empire?

DNA samples from Imperial Rome.

Rome_Imperial is too heterogenous population to use it as one average. This population includes individuals who are 100% MENA.

Were they locally born?

I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

I wonder what Julius Caesar was like autosomally.

[rothaer]

You made a claim about having to prove that 4 grandparents were Germans before being admitted to a guild.

Can you show your sources for this claim and did it apply just to one specific city or to a number of cities?

It's the known Wendenparagraph. See the abstract in English here, the full text is also available at that link.

https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/handle/document/48730#

I didn't read it, as its common knowledge to me that this was the case at some (restricted) time at some cities at some guilds (as I wrote). Funnily Beeskow (!) is mentioned in the abstract.

Yes I knew about Jewish coins in Poland.

A more interesting question is how did these coins end up in a museum in Berlin? Probably due to Nazi looting during WW2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder#Poland

"Probably", because you assume the coins having been located in interwar Poland from the the 12th century till 1939?

I guess there have been more interested and whealthy collectors of such coins outside interwar Poland than inside.

[Paraksenos]

DNA samples from Imperial Rome.



Were they locally born?



I wonder what Julius Caesar was like autosomally.

In 1-200 AD Imperial Rome, there were two main genetic clusters, one identical to DNA samples from Roman-era Southwest Anatolia (Greek) and another that was a mix of 60% Greek and 30% (Early Republican Roman/Etruscan + Gaul) similar to modern Southern Italians. It's likely that the Southern Italian like cluster developed earlier, before 1 AD, allowing time for mixing, while the "pure" Aegean cluster represents more recent Greek immigrants. Julius Caesar, born in Rome in 100 BC into the Julian clan, might have had a genetic profile similar to modern Corsicans if the elite families of that time didn't mix much with Greeks. If there are sources on the breeding patterns of his family and related elites, we could get a clearer idea of his genetic makeup.

[Figaro]

Only if you use North Italians instead of South Italians. South Italians make more sense, since Imperial Roman Italy was genetically South Italian-like, not North Italian-like, and Jews mixed with Italians in Imperial Rome.

Does my minor Jewish ancestry give me license to slick my hair, wear gold chains and say “Marone!” ?