Slavic Expansion

[KirillMazur]

I created proto Slavic G25 coords by following guidelines from this paper and it's closest to:

Distance to: Proto_Slav

0.01415176 Belarusian
0.01428394 Russian_Smolensk
0.01598366 Russian_Voronezh
0.01631404 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.01721179 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.01737822 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.01743548 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.01903361 Russian_Kaluga
0.01975875 Lithuanian_PA
0.01978615 Ukrainian_Dnipro

My father's ancestors are from the Gomel region, a proto-Slavic region

Schytians were different, they lacked BaltoSlavic dift and had mongoloid + caucasian admixture too.

Thank you, it’s interesting, there is a huge amount of contradictory information about the Scythians..

[Dušan]

Now a comparison using G25 and Europe1 PCA:

As can be seen Grodek_Tribal is more Balkan-shifted and Grodek_Medieval more Baltic-shifted:

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

Grodek_Medieval:GRK001,0.132035,0.128972,0.069013,0.056848,0.042162,0.019801,0.011986,0.007846,-0.005318,-0.021322,-0.004384,-0.009442,0.022596,0.026699,-0.008686,0.002254,0.008345,-0.006208,-0.004399,0.004252,-0.004866,-0.009892,0.010846,-0.007591,-0.006945
Grodek_Medieval:GRK005,0.138864,0.123895,0.07731,0.076874,0.043393,0.032909,0.011751,0.014999,0.004704,-0.0277,-0.002111,-0.009891,0.02334,0.023121,-0.016829,-0.002784,0.010952,-0.005194,0.00817,0.004502,-0.002745,-0.008408,0.00912,-0.015183,0.00455
Grodek_Medieval:GRK006,0.127482,0.12491,0.071653,0.068153,0.048009,0.025658,0.008225,0.009461,-0.001841,-0.026789,-0.007795,-0.013338,0.016501,0.017065,-0.009093,0.000928,0.006128,-0.00038,0.006536,0.01038,-0.002371,-0.003833,0.000246,-0.009399,0.00012
Grodek_Medieval:GRK007,0.126344,0.126941,0.058077,0.042636,0.042777,0.012829,0.012456,0.014999,-0.003681,-0.010387,-0.001624,-0.002997,0.015312,0.017203,-0.006243,0.008353,0.008475,0.003927,0.007416,-0.003502,-0.004991,-0.005564,0.001725,-0.009278,-0.00946
Grodek_Medieval:GRK009,0.130897,0.121864,0.072784,0.069122,0.040007,0.018128,0.012221,0.015692,-0.001432,-0.024237,-0.005034,-0.000599,0.021258,0.026836,-0.015744,-0.012861,-0.00678,-0.002787,0.004274,0.001626,-0.010107,-0.00136,0.0053,-0.007832,-0.000958
Grodek_Medieval:GRK012,0.129758,0.123895,0.059585,0.059109,0.045239,0.013945,0.01034,0.01223,-0.001432,-0.024602,0.001461,-0.01094,0.022894,0.020781,-0.013572,0.012198,0.02047,-0.005701,-0.004777,0.006628,-0.006738,-0.009274,0.011832,-0.008073,-0.00491
Grodek_Tribal:GRK004,0.132035,0.128972,0.066373,0.048127,0.048624,0.010877,0.011751,0.010153,0.003068,-0.013485,-0.008119,-0.005695,0.005203,0.021332,-0.010722,-0.000133,0.005215,0.00114,0.005531,0.008379,-0.005865,0.00779,0.008134,-0.007471,0.007544
Grodek_Tribal:GRK008,0.140002,0.12491,0.06675,0.054587,0.038161,0.018407,0.008225,0.004154,0.003272,-0.026424,-0.005359,-0.001499,0.011744,0.015551,-0.012758,0.01538,0.022035,-0.007728,-0.002765,0.003502,0,-0.004946,0.008751,-0.007471,-0.002155
Grodek_Tribal:GRK010,0.136588,0.13405,0.059208,0.040698,0.043085,0.01757,0.00893,0.008538,-0.002863,-0.015672,-0.004872,-0.008093,0.006095,0.019405,-0.010722,0.003447,0.010952,-0.001014,0.013324,-0.000375,0.00287,0.001607,0.003944,-0.009399,-0.000359
Grodek_Tribal:GRK011,0.134311,0.118817,0.056191,0.053941,0.030159,0.020917,0.00705,0.011538,0.001023,-0.021322,0.00747,-0.005845,0.014717,0.019818,-0.011536,0.000796,0.00339,0.00114,-0.001131,-0.000875,-0.009733,-0.005812,0.008134,-0.005181,-0.000958
Grodek_Tribal:GRK013,0.136588,0.125926,0.069013,0.057817,0.0437,0.016176,0.011751,0.015922,-0.002863,-0.019317,0.002111,-0.006894,0.015015,0.01913,-0.0095,-0.005436,-0.007041,0.003294,0.007416,-0.001376,-0.005989,-0.008656,0.008258,-0.012291,0.002395
Grodek_Tribal:GRK014,0.12862,0.132019,0.054305,0.03553,0.038161,0.006972,0.003995,0,-0.003272,-0.005649,-0.001949,0.002398,0.001338,0.016102,-0.008822,0.001458,0.011083,0.007728,0.014707,0.004877,-0.00262,0.004575,0.006162,0.001325,0.006945
Grodek_Tribal:GRK015,0.125205,0.11577,0.059962,0.042313,0.031698,0.018407,0.00423,0.008769,0.000409,-0.01385,0.001786,-0.003147,0.00669,0.010459,-0.003529,0.013259,0.015255,-0.004561,0.000628,0.002501,-0.003494,-0.003586,0.010599,-0.000723,-0.001317

Trying 2-way models with Grodek average.

Grodek_average,0.13221,0.125457,0.064633,0.054289,0.041167,0.017892,0.009455,0.010331,-0.000787,-0.019289,-0.002186,-0.005845,0.014054,0.0195,-0.010597,0.002835,0.008345,-0.001257,0.004225,0.003117,-0.004358,-0.003643,0.007158,-0.007582,-0.000424

0.0257 Dušan_scaled = 83% Serbian + 17% Grodek_average
0.0259 Dušan_scaled = 54% Grodek_average + 46% Greek_Macedonia
0.0265 Dušan_scaled = 91% Moldovan + 9% Grodek_average
0.0266 Dušan_scaled = 51% Grodek_average + 49% Torbeši_Polog
0.0269 Dušan_scaled = 69% Romanian + 31% Grodek_average
0.0271 Dušan_scaled = 59% Pomak_Danubian_Plain + 41% Grodek_average
0.0273 Dušan_scaled = 59% Grodek_average + 41% Greek_Arcadia
0.0273 Dušan_scaled = 59% Grodek_average + 41% Greek_Messenia
0.0275 Dušan_scaled = 61% Bulgarian + 39% Grodek_average
0.0275 Dušan_scaled = 58% Grodek_average + 42% Greek_Thessaly

[cass]

Major conclusions from the paper:

Slavic migrations completely transformed genetic landscape of eastern, central and southeastern Europe

- Slavs replaced local population in Germany and Croatia up to 80%, less in northern Russia
- much of central and eastern Germany had Sorb like genetic profile and area was later re-Germanized in Ostsidelung
- modern Croats are less than 80% Slavic today, so post-medieval there was resurgence of local Balkan ancestry
- Poland is def. not the origin of proto Slavs and Germanic tribes lived in Poland before Slavs emigrated from the east and almost completely replaced old population
- proto Slavs already acquired EEF enriched ancestry in forest zone of northeastern Europe
- Slavic migrations included mass population movements with women and children, unlike Germanic warrior male dominated migrations
- Croatian medieval Slavs share more IBD with German medieval Slavs than both share with Polish Slav samples which is somewhat surprising
- R1a M458 is not a good marker of proto Slavs and seems it was Slavicized in central Europe already after formation of early Slavs. Two main early Slavic lineages are instead R1a Z280 and I2a Y3210.

Distance to: GRK023
0.02859443 Denmark_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG106486_CGG106491__B C_202__Cov_67.50%
0.02930292 Norway_Central_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105601__AD_182__Co v_87.52%
0.03111235 Poland_Maslomecz_Wielbark_IA.SG:PCA0103.SG__AD_194 __Cov_74.66%
0.03181621 Germany_Hassleben_Germanic_oNorthernEurope.SG:R118 75.SG__AD_450__Cov_55.19%
0.03250928 Netherlands_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107762__AD_100__Cov_40.17%
0.03319539 Ukraine_Komarów_MBA:poz296_dr__BC_1531__Cov_29.07%
0.03342071 Ukraine_Kharkiv_Scythian_SivDon_NomEl_3_EIA:UKR116 __BC_645__Cov_46.54%
0.03405359 Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VIII9_1.SG__AD_137__Cov_25 .59%
0.03495978 Estonia_IA.SG:s19_V12_1.SG__BC_154__Cov_22.35%
0.03496734 Norway_Central_Trøndelag_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG105643__ AD_35__Cov_78.85%
0.03668189 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz684__BC_1317__Cov_27.11%
0.03682614 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz667__BC_1529__Cov_21.14%
0.03740882 Estonia_IA.SG:s19_X04_1.SG__BC_395__Cov_22.83%
0.03812590 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz747__BC_1391__Cov_29.66%
0.03824660 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz554__BC_1394__Cov_43.58%
0.03845789 Serbia_Roman_AfricanPossible.TW:I32305.TW__AD_100_ _Cov_80.26%
0.03856572 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug.AG:I12106.AG__BC_664__Cov_56. 93%
0.03895572 Ukraine_Volyn_Lusatian_EIA:UKR168__BC_850__Cov_57. 47%
0.03926962 Italy_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_NEurope.AG:I10949.AG__B C_480__Cov_49.60%
0.03959493 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz675__BC_1500__Cov_26.95%
0.03997427 Hungary_Sarmatian:HVF-21__AD_175__Cov_59.43%
0.04063195 Ukraine_Odesa_ThracianHallstatt_2_EIA:UKR000__BC_8 50__Cov_68.51%
0.04085516 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz658__BC_1326__Cov_46.94%
0.04106708 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz551_2__BC_1250__Cov_7.76%
0.04108251 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz665__BC_1476__Cov_43.54%


-250BC
Distance to: GRK023
0.03319539 Ukraine_Komarów_MBA:poz296_dr__BC_1531__Cov_29.07%
0.03342071 Ukraine_Kharkiv_Scythian_SivDon_NomEl_3_EIA:UKR116 __BC_645__Cov_46.54%
0.03668189 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz684__BC_1317__Cov_27.11%
0.03682614 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz667__BC_1529__Cov_21.14%
0.03740882 Estonia_IA.SG:s19_X04_1.SG__BC_395__Cov_22.83%
0.03812590 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz747__BC_1391__Cov_29.66%
0.03824660 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz554__BC_1394__Cov_43.58%
0.03856572 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug.AG:I12106.AG__BC_664__Cov_56. 93%
0.03895572 Ukraine_Volyn_Lusatian_EIA:UKR168__BC_850__Cov_57. 47%
0.03926962 Italy_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_NEurope.AG:I10949.AG__B C_480__Cov_49.60%
0.03959493 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz675__BC_1500__Cov_26.95%
0.04063195 Ukraine_Odesa_ThracianHallstatt_2_EIA:UKR000__BC_8 50__Cov_68.51%
0.04085516 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz658__BC_1326__Cov_46.94%
0.04106708 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz551_2__BC_1250__Cov_7.76%
0.04108251 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz665__BC_1476__Cov_43.54%
0.04113945 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz507_2__BC_1314__Cov_14.70%
0.04141714 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz545_2__BC_1260__Cov_9.10%
0.04162611 Lithuania_BA.AG:Turlojiske3.AG__BC_896__Cov_40.91%
0.04195473 Ukraine_Komarów_MBA:poz296__BC_1531__Cov_26.60%
0.04219841 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o3.AG:I25524.AG__BC_268__Cov_70. 85%
0.04239994 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug.AG:I5287.AG__BC_575__Cov_87.8 4%
0.04282842 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o.AG:I18226.AG__BC_345__Cov_65.6 6%
0.04287077 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz663__BC_1526__Cov_13.67%
0.04341982 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz694__BC_1321__Cov_28.63%
0.04352261 Hungary_Scythian:I20745__BC_550__Cov_41.57%



The inhabitant of the Grodek from 3rd century AD is a direct continuation of Trzciniec–Komarów and almost identical to the proto-Slav from Denmark (200 BC) and the Slavic Scythians. In my opinion, this is a hidden local Polish population concealed in cremation burials

[#Oda#]

Major conclusions from the paper:

Slavic migrations completely transformed genetic landscape of eastern, central and southeastern Europe

- Slavs replaced local population in Germany and Croatia up to 80%, less in northern Russia
- much of central and eastern Germany had Sorb like genetic profile and area was later re-Germanized in Ostsidelung
- modern Croats are less than 80% Slavic today, so post-medieval there was resurgence of local Balkan ancestry
- Poland is def. not the origin of proto Slavs and Germanic tribes lived in Poland before Slavs emigrated from the east and almost completely replaced old population
- proto Slavs already acquired EEF enriched ancestry in forest zone of northeastern Europe
- Slavic migrations included mass population movements with women and children, unlike Germanic warrior male dominated migrations
- Croatian medieval Slavs share more IBD with German medieval Slavs than both share with Polish Slav samples which is somewhat surprising
- R1a M458 is not a good marker of proto Slavs and seems it was Slavicized in central Europe already after formation of early Slavs. Two main early Slavic lineages are instead R1a Z280 and I2a Y3210.

I'm certain you can reduce that to Eastern Germany, but ask rothaer maybe.

[#Oda#]

My father's ancestors are from the Gomel region, a proto-Slavic region

Thank you, it’s interesting, there is a huge amount of contradictory information about the Scythians..

I'm missing your DNA test, btw

[Feiichy]

I'm certain you can reduce that to Eastern Germany, but ask rothaer maybe.

Herr rothaer teached us that ex DDR is central Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...politan_Region

[KirillMazur]

I'm missing your DNA test, btw

I temporarily lost interest in this, as well as in the forum in general. I hope I will return to this.
By the way, in Russia only Genotek works, do you know if you can trust it? I just read (here) that the results of DNA tests in different services do not coincide with each other, and this makes this entertainment quite pointless.

[Peterski]

R1a M458 is not a good marker of proto Slavs and seems it was Slavicized in central Europe already after formation of early Slavs. Two main early Slavic lineages are instead R1a Z280 and I2a Y3210.

I doubt this, there are four big and relatively young (younger than 2750 years) subclades of M458 which exist in all Slavic countries - YP256, YP1337, L1029 and YP509. Soon there will be a genetic study about this (about Slavic Y-DNA) by Polish geneticist Michal Milewski published in "Human Genetics" journal.

[#Oda#]

I temporarily lost interest in this, as well as in the forum in general. I hope I will return to this.
By the way, in Russia only Genotek works, do you know if you can trust it? I just read (here) that the results of DNA tests in different services do not coincide with each other, and this makes this entertainment quite pointless.

Well, yes, that's an old story that they don't coincide, applying to the whole field of commercial tests for several reasons, like for example different names and divisions of regions, different references and more, but with some knowledge it's possible to put it together fairly good in spite of that meanwhile, even with MyH that has been an outlier as to quality for a long time.

[#Oda#]

Herr rothaer teached us that ex DDR is central Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...politan_Region

Ah so ... Hm, I don't know. For me it's always been geographic Eastern Germany, except a strip in the very west.

EDIT: Coming to my mind, he takes other borders as a basis ofc, being an Edelnazi, so the centre would be more east and then I can agree to your statement.