Belarus name dispute

[Windischer]

Split from here
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i see that hungarian state propaganda is powerful even after all those years
almost on par with nazi & bolshevik

AND...

Belorussians

saying "belorussians" is chauvinistic. since the land is Belarus (White Ruthenia), a proper ethnonym and adjective in english should be Belarusian or Belarusyn (White Ruthenian).

[Twistedmind]

i see that hungarian state propaganda is powerful even after all those years
almost on par with nazi & bolshevik

AND...



saying "belorussians" is chauvinistic. since the land is Belarus (White Ruthenia), a proper ethnonym and adjective in english should be Belarusian or Belarusyn (White Ruthenian).

It is not chauvinistic, since it is still considered to be correct in English language, same case with German, Russian etc. Of course, Belarusians (other acceptable spellings: Belarussians, Byelorussians etc) want to show they distant idenity, and it should be respected. But:
1) Its not chauvinistic. In best case its confusion.
2) Russia is also derived from Rus' like Ruthenia.
3) Its more apropriate to write Belorussian than Byelarusyn, since they do have more in common with Russians (linguisticaly, culturaly, genneticaly etc) than with Rusyns.

[inactive_member]

It is not chauvinistic, since it is still considered to be correct in English language, same case with German, Russian etc. Of course, Belarusians (other acceptable spellings: Belarussians, Byelorussians etc) want to show they distant idenity, and it should be respected. But:
1) Its not chauvinistic. In best case its confusion.
2) Russia is also derived from Rus' like Ruthenia.
3) Its more apropriate to write Belorussian than Byelarusyn, since they do have more in common with Russians (linguisticaly, culturaly, genneticaly etc) than with Rusyns.

Generally, the Russians don't have a problem spelling the term Belarus-ian. Some older Russian generation people still use the term Belorussia (Belorussija), while younger generation and media prefer the term 'Belarus'. Nowadays, Belarus is more common than Belorussia in Russia. Also, Belarus is a more beautiful as it's closer to the original name. Think of the differences between Rossija and Rus' and warm feelings the latter name may bring out of some Russians.

There're some chauvinists in Russia purposely misspelling the name Belarus, in which case the Belarusians are quickly to label the chauvinists as «rossijane» (term for all people of Russia than ethnic Russians) which causes butt-hurt among them.

As for the genetics.

There was a six generation Boyko guy on this forum. Genetically, he would not be very distant from Poles and SW Belarusians, while some Russians living in Archangel or Karelia maybe more similar to Finnic people than to the Belarusians. So,

Southern Russians have genetic affinity to Ukrainians.
Western Russians have genetic affinity to Belarusians.
Northern Russians have genetic affinity to Finns.
People living in other neighbouring countries have also genetic affinity to the Belarusians.

[Windischer]

It is not chauvinistic, since it is still considered to be correct in English language, same case with German, Russian etc. Of course, Belarusians (other acceptable spellings: Belarussians, Byelorussians etc) want to show they distant idenity, and it should be respected. But:
1) Its not chauvinistic. In best case its confusion.
2) Russia is also derived from Rus' like Ruthenia.
3) Its more apropriate to write Belorussian than Byelarusyn, since they do have more in common with Russians (linguisticaly, culturaly, genneticaly etc) than with Rusyns.

i didnt mean its always accompanied by chauvinistic intent, but i think it has chauvinistic origins. rossiya (russia) is a hellenized form of rus. rusyn is an archaic personal noun, meaning "rus-person", a ruthenian (term "ruthenian" itself is a borrowing from old latin name for rutheni, a gaulish tribe living at pyrenees, rousillon region; later used for old rusyns in the wider sense). its not supposed to point at any connection to modern rusyns. the suffix -in in belarusyn has been dropping in belarusyn nouns like it did in most other slavic languages. a person from byelaya rus is therefore a byelorus (term rusyn was used in belarus as an ethnonym well into early modern era).

rendering this to english language from belarus (in this orthography), with respect to english language principles and grammar, yields a personal noun and an adjective in these forms:
1. Belarusyn and
2. Belarusian;
in the same way as adjective ruskyj yields rusyn in english.

belarusyn looks like the most correct form to me. hellenization to belarussian is completely out of place and speaks of russification.

[Twistedmind]

Generally, the Russians don't have a problem spelling the term Belarus-ian.

Yes.

Some older Russian generation people still use the term Belorussia (Belorussija), while younger generation and media prefer the term 'Belarus'. Nowadays, Belarus is more common than Belorussia in Russia.

I had in mind more other languages. In most of European languages, there is equotation between second part of name of Belarus, and name of Russia. My point was it is legacy of old times, not Russian chauvinism in German, Serbian etc

Also, Belarus is a more beautiful as it's closer to the original name.

I agree.

Think of the differences between Rossija and Rus' and warm feelings the latter name may bring out of some Russians.

[/quote]
Well, in XVII century Russians accepted Greek spelling of their own country. Before that it was Rus' or Rusiya (like most of Slavs are today spelling). What I had in mind was both countries in name and rest bear legacy of all Principality of Rus'.

There're some chauvinists in Russia purposely misspelling the name Belarus, in which case the Belarusians are quickly to label the chauvinists as «rossijane» (term for all people of Russia than ethnic Russians) which causes butt-hurt among them.

Ok, but most people on TA are not Russians.

As for the genetics.

There was a six generation Boyko guy on this forum. Genetically, he would not be very distant from Poles and SW Belarusians, while some Russians living in Archangel or Karelia maybe more similar to Finnic people than to the Belarusians. So,

Southern Russians have genetic affinity to Ukrainians.
Western Russians have genetic affinity to Belarusians.
Northern Russians have genetic affinity to Finns.
People living in other neighbouring countries have also genetic affinity to the Belarusians.

Well, I was maybe somewhat generalizing, but in end I was right. If you compare Northern Russians, they will be still closer to Belarusians than Zakrpathian Rusyns. Anyway, culturaly, ethnolignguisticaly, there is no doubt, but I introduced it mainly to diferentiate Belarusians from Rusyns, same with Russians.

i didnt mean its always accompanied by chauvinistic intent,

It has chauvinistic context verry rarely, in Russian language. But I understand point when some people want to express their different identity.

but i think it has chauvinistic origins.

I highly doubt, especialy when we speak about English and German language.

rossiya (russia) is a hellenized form of rus.

Well Rossiya is. Russia is latinized, and acepted in English.

rusyn is an archaic personal noun, meaning "rus-person", a ruthenian (term "ruthenian" itself is a borrowing from old latin name for rutheni, a gaulish tribe living at pyrenees, rousillon region; later used for old rusyns in the wider sense). its not supposed to point at any connection to modern rusyns. the suffix -in in belarusyn has been dropping in belarusyn nouns like it did in most other slavic languages. a person from byelaya rus is therefore a byelorus (term rusyn was used in belarus as an ethnonym well into early modern era).

Well, you forget, in Archaic times Rusin could be Russian as well. In OCS most of names of ethnicites had suffix -in. Even in XX century there were Russians in Kazan, Kostroma etc who were calling themselves Rusin instead of Russkiy. Byelarusyn would be Belarusian in Polish, altough archaic.

rendering this to english language from belarus (in this orthography), with respect to english language principles and grammar, yields a personal noun and an adjective in these forms:
1. Belarusyn and
2. Belarusian;
in the same way as adjective ruskyj yields rusyn in english.

Rusyn is loanwoard. Not native English word.

belarusyn looks like the most correct form to me.

How, it could be most correct when nobody use it, since it is leftover of ancient layers of language. Especialy native people do not use it.

Finland also had autonomy like us,

Finland was seprate crown, technicaly speaking Russia and Finland were in Personal union. They had their own money, separte laws, franchise, separate army. You were just provinces, integral part of Russian Empire, with degree of self-governance. Also, people who had autonomy were German lords and pastors, not Estonian serfs

what's your point?

My point is teritory of modern Estonia was Russian province.

Western parts of the Russian Empire which were considerably more developed than Russia were never under direct Russian rule,

L00lz again. Western Parts of Russian Empire was what is today Poland. And it was not significantly more developed than Russia, both states were under serfdom, same case with Baltic provinces.

The reforms made in Russia by the czar, was actually done after Estonia and Livonia which had typically Western law systems, court systems and so on, being governed by Germans.

Hehe, Livonia acctually had part of Estonia within it. Also there was no Estonia as entity, there were Curonia, Livonia etc. Besides, those Western laws were also feudal. Same with Russia, so you dont have point.

Russia was to some extent, Westernized, after the local laws in Estonia and Livonia.

Russia was westenized before even acquired Baltic provinces.

[inactive_member]

I had in mind more other languages. In most of European languages, there is equotation between second part of name of Belarus, and name of Russia. My point was it is legacy of old times, not Russian chauvinism in German, Serbian etc

I have a strong suspision the English term 'Belorussia' is derived from 'Belorussija' (Белоруссия). The name 'Belorussija' (Белоруссия) was given to the republic by Soviet authorities in 1919 . The term Belaja Rus' or Belarus existed since the 13th century. There's also some confusion naming different ethnicities using a similar obsolete ethnonym. So, it makes sense to use the proper terms Belarus and Belarus-ian.

Well, in XVII century Russians accepted Greek spelling of their own country. Before that it was Rus' or Rusiya (like most of Slavs are today spelling). What I had in mind was both countries in name and rest bear legacy of all Principality of Rus'.

Different regions of Russia were known under different names in different periods of times. Officially, Russia was also known as Moscow principality in the past. The term 'Rus' is used in poems bringing warms or patriotic feelings among some people. There're Russians who dislike the term 'russkiy' used as ethnonym because it's in an adjective form created by a commie Yakov Sverdlov. The term 'Russkiy' was applied to the language in the past. Ethnic Russians were known as the Great-Russians (великорос или великорус) (see Lisa's profile for a reference). AFAIK Sverdolov considered it chauvinistic, so he changed it to Russkiy.

Well, I was maybe somewhat generalizing, but in end I was right. If you compare Northern Russians, they will be still closer to Belarusians than Zakrpathian Rusyns. Anyway, culturaly, ethnolignguisticaly, there is no doubt, but I introduced it mainly to diferentiate Belarusians from Rusyns, same with Russians.

The ethnography of the Russian North is containing many Finnic elements which are foreign in Belarus. Many of Belarusian ancestors were Greek Catholic in the past. Belarus has a strong presence of Catholicism in two ethnographic regions, which is non-existent in the Russian North. If I am not mistaken Rusyns are also Orthodox, Catholic and Greek Catholic.

[inactive_member]

The north-western region of the Russian Empire, officially known as Severo-Zapadniy Kraj, was referred to former territories of the GDL. The north-western region included the present day territories of Belarus, Lithuania and eastern Latvia (Latgale) . The governates in the north-western region of Russian Empire were Vilno, Kovno, Grodno, Minsk, Mogilev and Vitebsk.

Poland was an autonomy having its own constitution, parliament, army till 1863 upraising. Finland was also an autonomous region in Russia known as the Great Duchy of Finland.

Latvia and Estonia

The governate of Estonia (northern & central Estonia)
The governate of Livia (southern Estonia and northern Latvia)
The governate of Courland (Latvia without territories of northern and eastern Latvia)

Did the governates existing on Latvian and Estonian territories have their own constitutions, parliaments, armies, customs borders as Poland and Finland?

[Windischer]

what i meant is, that if rus -> rusyn, then belarus -> belarusyn. in english, that is. because, actual belorusyn ppl dont use english ethnonym, of course.
belarussian has, as ruhovit said, got to the west through russian. there comes the chauvinism.
same with translating the adjective ruskyj -> rusyn, belaruskyj -> belarusyn.

or belarusian. although both are undoubtedly correct, i personally prefer belarusyn because of the same compound and analogical translation.

[Rudel]

what i meant is, that if rus -> rusyn, then belarus -> belarusyn. in english, that is. because, actual belorusyn ppl dont use english ethnonym, of course.
belarussian has, as ruhovit said, got to the west through russian. there comes the chauvinism.
same with translating the adjective ruskyj -> rusyn, belaruskyj -> belarusyn.

or belarusian. although both are undoubtedly correct, i personally prefer belarusyn because of the same compound and analogical translation.

In France the only official name, and the most used, is Biélorussie. Bélarus is not correct from the perspective of historical naming (it's never been called that in French), nor from the perspective of the French language itself. Foreign countries can't chose how we call them in our own language.

It's still better than Ruthénie blanche (White Ruthenia).

[Twistedmind]

what i meant is, that if rus -> rusyn, then belarus -> belarusyn. in english, that is. because, actual belorusyn ppl dont use english ethnonym, of course.

But that change did not came after any Laws of English language. It got just as simple. Rusyn got in English when US officials asked Rusyns: What are you. And thats all mystery.

belarussian has, as ruhovit said, got to the west through russian.

It was official name of BSSR, and it came trough simple use/translation. After gaining of independence official name in Russian was changed to Беларус (and Belarusian as ethnonym is беларусец I think)

there comes the chauvinism.

More confusion

same with translating the adjective ruskyj -> rusyn, belaruskyj -> belarusyn.

But Belarusians do not call themselves Belarusyns, nor it is belaruskij, but bjelaruskij, and finaly, adjectiv Rusyn was just typical occurance in English, most ethnonym adjectives are same as nouns. Fe: Immanuel kant is ethnic German and German philosopher. Same way, Andy Warholl is ethnic Ruysin and Rusyn artist.
Or even more close to you: Българин (Balgarin)and български (Balgarski) are in English both translated as Bulgarian. So your analogy is false. Same as Rusyn (Русин) and Rusyn (русиньскый)

or belarusian. although both are undoubtedly correct, i personally prefer belarusyn because of the same compound and analogical translation.

Well, as I pointed out: its false analogy.