Evidence of a Germanic presence in eastern Europe

[Äike]

In the end, it's all about this question, where and when N and it's types originated. Now I read most of the time they came originally from further East and where not the Europoid sphere when we can speak at least of Proto-Europoids or already Europids in West Eurasia.

The opinion that Finno-Ugrics are Mongols far away back still exists. In the good old days, the 19th century, Finns, Estonians and Hungarians belonged to the Mongoloid race

Finno-Ugrics came from Eastern-Europe, it is true even if you're not a believer of Kalevi Wiik's theories.

Well, point is, Finno-Ugrians, especially Baltic Finns, have significant European/Indo-European influences - Nordoid to a large degree.

Baltic Finns have the genetically lowest(even negative) Middle-East scores, because we are not Indo-Europeans. Scandinavians also have very low Middle-East scores as demic difussion didn't happen in Northern-Europe. Still, Baltic-Finns have the lowest Middle-East score as we have retained our language.

Indo-Europeans had a superior culture, thus assimilating the natives was quite easy. The more northwards one goes from the Balkan area, the less Indo-European influence there is.

Indo-Europeans being most likely the product of a Neolithic - Southern-Eastern Mesolithic fusion, with some of the most important steps being done in South Eastern Europe and Eastern Europe-Western Central Asia.

Now from there they expanded and from there even before the Indo-Europeans similar, more Europid and more progressive variants, expanded too, as they did from Anatolia as well.

The Northern Cromagnoids were partly much more archaic, but showed almost no Mongoloid tendency. This foreign tendency appeared later and this might be the element which brought the Finno-Ugrian language, which would make even more sense if they being texted for yDNA haplogroup N and N's origin further East being proven. I'm waiting for that...

There are some Cromagnoids even in NW-Europe who show some "Mongoloid tendency", although they have no Mongoloid influence. It's called borealization. There are considerably less of such individuals in NW-Europe, of course. Because NE-Europe is a lot colder than NW-Europe.

[Osweo]

I

This would confirm that it emerged as a blend of Hallstatt Proto-Celtic and the Corded-Ware Proto-Slavic.

!

CHRIST....

eupedia again;
They are known to linguists as the P-Celtic branch. It is thought that this change occured due to the inability to pronounce the *kw sound by the pre-Indo-European population of central Europe, Gaul and Italy, who were speakers of Afro-Asiatic dialects that had evolved from a Near-Eastern language.

MAN, it's absolute drivel, as Thulsa Doom said. Please, take our word for it. I never read such nonsense!!!

[Agrippa]

The opinion that Finno-Ugrics are Mongols far away back still exists. In the good old days, the 19th century, Finns, Estonians and Hungarians belonged to the Mongoloid race

Finno-Ugrics came from Eastern-Europe, it is true even if you're not a believer of Kalevi Wiik's theories.

Well, it all depends on the haplogroup N, though even if N is Mongoloid, Finno-Ugrians could be still original Europeans, as unlikely as that would be, because the N-newcomers could be assimilated as well.

However, that admixture doesn't make the Finno-Ugrians as a whole Mongoloid, because the real genetic influence of the N-carriers seems to be rather limited. Ancient Mongoloid admixture makes nobody a member of the Mongoloid race, but at best/worst, depends on perspective, influenced...

Baltic Finns have the genetically lowest(even negative) Middle-East scores, because we are not Indo-Europeans.

Baltic Finns have significant Indo-European influences though and are practically "Indo-Europeanised Finno-Ugrians" in almost every respect - though not to the same degree of Hungarians of course.

Scandinavians also have very low Middle-East scores as demic difussion didn't happen in Northern-Europe. Still, Baltic-Finns have the lowest Middle-East score as we have retained our language.

It did happen, but just from movements inside of Europe.

Indo-Europeans had a superior culture, thus assimilating the natives was quite easy. The more northwards one goes from the Balkan area, the less Indo-European influence there is.

That's not true if starting with real Indoeuropeans and not just some sort of Proto-Proto-Indoeuropeans - because Indoeuropeans as a people came up inside of Europe, by the fusion of two influences with the local, most likely Eastern European, component being the dominant factor in the mix.

There are some Cromagnoids even in NW-Europe who show some "Mongoloid tendency", although they have no Mongoloid influence. It's called borealization. There are considerably less of such individuals in NW-Europe, of course. Because NE-Europe is a lot colder than NW-Europe.

Borealisation is a fact, but just consider that it can happen much faster and more drastically if the genes for cold adaptation being introduced by foreign elements, as weak as they might be in numbers. Then they can be selected much faster.

Also you don't have the same degree of Borealisation in most other regions of Europe, not just because of the lack of this relatively stronger foreign admixture, but also because the climate and way of life is not the same.

The basic Europid Borealisation trend results just in more pyknomorphic, shorter legged and the like, but there are details which go beyond that and can be observed in North Eastern Europe - primarily not exclusively - which can be attributed to Mongoloid influences or at least Mongoliform tendencies deviating from the Europid standard towards a transitional status - as Westsibirids (mostly Finno-Ugrians) are in between Europoid and Mongoloid f.e.

However, fortunately only a limited number of people have those Mongoloid/Mongoliform traits in the North East, proportionally it is really a minority in most regions and reduced even in Lapps due to long lasting mixtures with Indo-Europeans - and the already stronger/strong Europid Mesolithic base (Cromagnoid originally, today mostly Baltised).

[lei.talk]

Originally Posted by Osweo CHRIST....



MAN, it's absolute drivel, as Thulsa Doom said.
Please, take our word for it. I never read such nonsense!!!

Oswiu May Recall Thanking This Post
if one is making statements
that are consonant with reality,

one need simply point to the proof.

[Loki]

I'd also love to hear more on the fate of the 'stay at home' Goths of the Crimea... Into what later population did they merge? The Greek???

Why Greek? The most likely explanation is that they assimilated within the local pre-Goth populace in Crimea and neighbouring Ukraine/Russia.

[Osweo]

Why Greek? The most likely explanation is that they assimilated within the local pre-Goth populace in Crimea and neighbouring Ukraine/Russia.

Pre Goth would be who exactly, in the Crimea and its hinterland? The earliest period we know of historically has the Tauri and Scythians there. Then Greek colonies are founded, and there's some mixing going on, and then the Romans turn up... under whose rule everyone gets more or less Hellenised. Then the Goths turn up on the mainland, taking the peninsula in the mid Third Century. It will have been more or less Greek then, or Irano-Greek. Then all the other buggers come and go...

But Gothic speech appears to have survived into remarkably recent times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic

The existence of a Germanic dialect in the Crimea is attested in a number of sources from the 9th century to the 18th century. However, only a single source provides any details of the language itself: a letter by the Flemish ambassador Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, dated 1562 and first published in 1589, gives a list of some eighty words and a song supposedly in the language.

Busbecq's information is problematic in a number of ways: his informants were not unimpeachable (one was a Greek speaker who knew Crimean Gothic as a second language, the other a Goth who had abandoned his native language in favour of Greek); there is the possibility that Busbecq's transcription was influenced by his own Flemish tongue; there are undoubted misprints in the printed text, which is the only source.

ah... I believe the bolded text above answers my question for me.

The Goths were Christians. As a minority under Ottoman rule, they would ally with their co-religionists, and the better connected language won out.

NOW... where are those Hellenised Goths now?!? In the Ukraine, largely Russified, or gone to Greece proper?

[Basil]

NOW... where are those Hellenised Goths now?!? In the Ukraine, largely Russified, or gone to Greece proper?

There is some evidence they were eventually assimilated into the Tatars.
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/i...id=16205&st=0&
(the last paragraph in the first post and the second post)

Also in 1778 Catherine II resettled all Christians of Crimea (mainly Greeks and Armenians) to the areas next to the Sea of Azov in order to undermine the economy of peninsula. It's very likely there were remnants of the Goths and Hellenised Goths among others.

[Äike]

Well, it all depends on the haplogroup N, though even if N is Mongoloid, Finno-Ugrians could be still original Europeans, as unlikely as that would be, because the N-newcomers could be assimilated as well.

However, that admixture doesn't make the Finno-Ugrians as a whole Mongoloid, because the real genetic influence of the N-carriers seems to be rather limited. Ancient Mongoloid admixture makes nobody a member of the Mongoloid race, but at best/worst, depends on perspective, influenced...

We could be talking about mongoloid admixture in Finno-Ugrics actually living next to the Mongoloid peoples. Finno-Ugrics around the Urals have received influences either from Turkics, Tatars or Siberians. In some ethnicities it is quite visible, while other are still predominately Europid.

N probably entered Siberia from Eastern-Europe, but there might have been backwards migration towards Eastern-Europe. Mart Laar states in his book that scientists state that the "Y-DNA haplogroup common only among Finno-Ugrics" entered Sibera from Eastern-Europe. I might talk to him about that in August.

Baltic Finns have significant Indo-European influences though and are practically "Indo-Europeanised Finno-Ugrians" in almost every respect - though not to the same degree of Hungarians of course.

Or as I see it... Northern-Europeans are all Finno-Ugrians, with minor Indo-European influences.

7. Linguistic development of the Post-Swiderian people
It was assumed above that the languages spoken by the Post-Swiderian
peoples at the end of the Ice Age were Finno-Ugric (traditionally Uralic).
What, then, happened to them later?
The Post-Swiderian peoples moved west and northwest in conjunction
with the resettlement of Northern Europe so that the regions they inhabited coincided largely with the area shown on Map 11. Roughly speaking, we
can claim that the inhabitants of the Post-Swiderian region, in other words,
the “New Eastern Europeans”, migrated to the parts of Europe shown on
Map 11 as part of the resettlement of Northern Europe. This is the region
where even today the people living there constitute both genetically and
anthropologically a fairly homogeneous type. The most suitable name for
these people at the end of the Ice Age would be “Post-Swiderians” or “New
Eastern Europeans”. But after their migration it would perhaps be better to
refer to them as “Northern Europeans”.
The belt to which the “Post-Swiderians” migrated when Northern
Europe was resettled after the Ice Age can also be determined using
archaeological methods. The new region was a belt that followed the
southern and eastern shores of the Baltic when they were laid bare by the
melting ice sheet. During the Early Mesolithic period this was the home of
the Maglemose-Nemen-Kunda chain of cultures (that included at a later
stage also Suomusjärvi), and during the Late Mesolithic period where the
Ertebølle-Nemen-Narva-Sperrings flourished. During the very earliest
stage (before that of Maglemosian culture) when the “Post-Swiderians”
reached what is today Denmark and Northern Germany, they came into
contact with Hamburgian and Ahrensburgian cultures. According to Pauli
Saukkonen (2005) the German archaeologist Alfred Rust “came to the
simple conclusion that the people of Hamburgian and Ahrensburgian
cultures came from the east (Rust 1951: 48–52, 1972: 64) and not from the
Magdalenian regions [Western Europe] as was thought earlier and as is still
assumed in Finland. They [the Hamburgian and Ahrensburgian people] had
narrow Brünn-type faces (after finds made at Brünn) as opposed to the
broad-faced Cro-Magnon type (ibid. 200–201). Finds from Hamburgian
culture reveal Gravettian influence, and it belongs to the sphere of
Abschlag culture, which extended from the Black Sea to Germany (...)”.
It must be assumed that these people had, right up to the final period
of the resettlement of Northern Europe, retained (not only their genetic but)
also their linguistic origins. Perhaps the people of Hamburgian and
Ahrensburgian cultures living in this region still spoke Finno-Ugric
(Uralic) languages.
Map 11.

Map 12.

Map 13.

Map 14.

The linguistic nature of Northern and Eastern Europe subsequently
changed, however, following two different directions: (1) New Finno-
Ugric-speaking (Uralic-speaking) areas were attached to the old one in the
north and northeast (northernmost Fennoscandia, northeasternmost Europe
and Northern Siberia) and (2) the Finno-Ugric-speaking region has shrunk
in the northern parts of Central Europe, Scandinavia, Poland, the Baltic,
White Russia (Belarus) and Russia. At the beginning of the Christian era
the region where Finno-Ugric (Uralic) languages were spoken covered
approximately that shown on Map 12. Map 13 shows three different
regions: (1) a central region where the Post-Swiderian genetic and
linguistic heritage has been preserved, (2) the western region where the
Post-Swiderian genetic heritage persists but where Finno-Ugric languages
have given way to Indo-European languages, and (3) the eastern region
where people with non-Post-Swiderian genetic heritage have adopted a Finno-Ugric (Uralic) language. The people of region 1 represent “the Finns
and their genetic and linguistic relatives” on Map 13, the people of region 2
are “genetic (but not linguistic) relatives of the Finns”, i.e. original
Germanic-speaking, Baltic-speaking and Slavic-speaking peoples, and the
people of region 3 represent “the linguistic (but not genetic) relatives of the
Finns”, i.e. the Northern Sami and Samoyed people.
The language shift from Finno-Ugric to Indo-European in the western
region occurred during the period 5,500–3,000 BC when agriculture
advanced from the south, mainly from the Band Ceramic, or LBK, region,
bringing it to those regions inhabited by Finno-Ugric-speaking hunters. The
spread of agriculture and with it the Indo-European language to the north
took the form primarily of cultural and linguistic diffusion, not demic
diffusion. In other words, it was only agriculture and the Indo-European
language that spread; there was no migration of people. The people
remained largely where they were and only agricultural skills and linguistic
skills (as a consequence of the change of the subsistence system and
language) were transferred. This idea has been put forward by the
archaeologist Marek Zvelebil, for example, and it is now generally
accepted (for example, by Colin Renfrew and Pavel Dolukhanov) (see Map
15, where the boundary of black dots shows how far agriculture spread
mainly as demic diffusion and how north of it agriculture spread as cultural
diffusion). The claim of the cultural rather than demic diffusion of
agriculture is extremely central regarding the origins of the Germanic,
Baltic and Slavic peoples.
Map 15.

This process resulted in the Germanic-speaking, Baltic-speaking and
Slavic-speaking peoples, who even today represent to a large extent the
same genetic and anthropological type as their ancestors, the ancient Post-
Swiderians. The main difference is that they speak a different language
from their ancestors. The evolution of the Finns has been much the same
insofar as they are also of the same genetic and anthropological type as the
Post-Swiderians but they differ from the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic
populations in that they still speak the same Post-Swiderian language as
their ancestors.
There is no firm evidence of the stage at which the northern Sami
underwent the language shift WE > FU (where WE is some western
European language, possibly a form of Basque).
There exist three possibilities (see Map 14 and the three numbered
circles). The first is that the language shift took place at the time when the
genetic ancestors of the Northern Sami lived on the North Sea continent ca.
10,000 BC and represented Brommian culture. The second is that it
occurred within Eastern European Post-Swiderian culture when the
Western Europeans had started moving to Eastern Europe via the Central
European gateway after ca. 13,500 BC. The third possibility is that the
language shift did not take place until ca. 7,500 BC after the land link
between northernmost Fennoscandia and Eastern Karelia had come into
being. The fourth possibility, that the Northern Sami became speakers of a
Finno-Ugric language as late as the Bronze Age can hardly be deemed
credible.
We do not know when the Palaeosiberian people, the ancestors of the
Samoyeds, moved to northeastern Europe and there gave up their
Palaeosiberian tongue in favour of some Finno-Ugric language(s). It has
been thought possible that this did not happen until after 2000 BC.

Full PDF here: Who are the Finns?

It did happen, but just from movements inside of Europe.

The
spread of agriculture and with it the Indo-European language to the north
took the form primarily of cultural and linguistic diffusion, not demic
diffusion. In other words, it was only agriculture and the Indo-European
language that spread; there was no migration of people. The people
remained largely where they were and only agricultural skills and linguistic
skills (as a consequence of the change of the subsistence system and
language) were transferred. This idea has been put forward by the
archaeologist Marek Zvelebil, for example, and it is now generally
accepted (for example, by Colin Renfrew and Pavel Dolukhanov) (see Map
15, where the boundary of black dots shows how far agriculture spread
mainly as demic diffusion and how north of it agriculture spread as cultural
diffusion). The claim of the cultural rather than demic diffusion of
agriculture is extremely central regarding the origins of the Germanic,
Baltic and Slavic peoples.

That's not true if starting with real Indoeuropeans and not just some sort of Proto-Proto-Indoeuropeans - because Indoeuropeans as a people came up inside of Europe, by the fusion of two influences with the local, most likely Eastern European, component being the dominant factor in the mix.

Borealisation is a fact, but just consider that it can happen much faster and more drastically if the genes for cold adaptation being introduced by foreign elements, as weak as they might be in numbers. Then they can be selected much faster.

Also you don't have the same degree of Borealisation in most other regions of Europe, not just because of the lack of this relatively stronger foreign admixture, but also because the climate and way of life is not the same.

The basic Europid Borealisation trend results just in more pyknomorphic, shorter legged and the like, but there are details which go beyond that and can be observed in North Eastern Europe - primarily not exclusively - which can be attributed to Mongoloid influences or at least Mongoliform tendencies deviating from the Europid standard towards a transitional status - as Westsibirids (mostly Finno-Ugrians) are in between Europoid and Mongoloid f.e.

However, fortunately only a limited number of people have those Mongoloid/Mongoliform traits in the North East, proportionally it is really a minority in most regions and reduced even in Lapps due to long lasting mixtures with Indo-Europeans - and the already stronger/strong Europid Mesolithic base (Cromagnoid originally, today mostly Baltised).

No "foreign genes" are needed for such borealization if living in Arctic conditions.

[Agrippa]

N probably entered Siberia from Eastern-Europe, but there might have been backwards migration towards Eastern-Europe. Mart Laar states in his book that scientists state that the "Y-DNA haplogroup common only among Finno-Ugrics" entered Sibera from Eastern-Europe. I might talk to him about that in August.

That's true, but at the crucial period, when Europoid/Proto-Europoid West Eurasians were already in formation, foreign Eastern elements carried N into Europe, that is the point.

No "foreign genes" are needed for such borealization if living in Arctic conditions.

True, but it is much more likely that certain "detail traits" came with the foreign admixture, because it wasn't necessary in Europe nor could it spread in that way and along the lines of the now proven deviation towards the East...

Or as I see it... Northern-Europeans are all Finno-Ugrians, with minor Indo-European influences.

This being largely disproven long time ago by racial typology and finally by genetics.

First major changes happened in all of Northern Europe from the Mesolithic to Metal Age periods.

Secondly there was an Eastern influence in Finno-Ugrians and thirdly there is no single proof for today's Scandinavians having relations to the Finno-Ugrians, yet alone talking about the Rest of Europe...

Kalevi Wiik was discussed here and elsewhere, can't find the respective thread right now though, but he is standing largely alone...

[Äike]

That's true, but at the crucial period, when Europoid/Proto-Europoid West Eurasians were already in formation, foreign Eastern elements carried N into Europe, that is the point.



True, but it is much more likely that certain "detail traits" came with the foreign admixture, because it wasn't necessary in Europe nor could it spread in that way and along the lines of the now proven deviation towards the East...



This being largely disproven long time ago by racial typology and finally by genetics.

First major changes happened in all of Northern Europe from the Mesolithic to Metal Age periods.

Actually in recent years, the theory is more viable then it used to be.

Secondly there was an Eastern influence in Finno-Ugrians and thirdly there is no single proof for today's Scandinavians having relations to the Finno-Ugrians, yet alone talking about the Rest of Europe...

Scandinavians are Finno-Ugrians/post-Swiderians who speak Indo-European languages... Finno-Ugrians only in the east have "Eastern influence"

The most "Eastern" Finno-Ugrians are the ones who have given up their original language and have adapted a Finno-Ugric one.

about the Sami, the Paleosiberians and the Samoyeds:

There is no firm evidence of the stage at which the northern Sami
underwent the language shift WE > FU (where WE is some western
European language, possibly a form of Basque).
There exist three possibilities (see Map 14 and the three numbered
circles). The first is that the language shift took place at the time when the
genetic ancestors of the Northern Sami lived on the North Sea continent ca.
10,000 BC and represented Brommian culture. The second is that it
occurred within Eastern European Post-Swiderian culture when the
Western Europeans had started moving to Eastern Europe via the Central
European gateway after ca. 13,500 BC. The third possibility is that the
language shift did not take place until ca. 7,500 BC after the land link
between northernmost Fennoscandia and Eastern Karelia had come into
being. The fourth possibility, that the Northern Sami became speakers of a
Finno-Ugric language as late as the Bronze Age can hardly be deemed
credible.
We do not know when the Palaeosiberian people, the ancestors of the
Samoyeds, moved to northeastern Europe and there gave up their
Palaeosiberian tongue in favour of some Finno-Ugric language(s). It has
been thought possible that this did not happen until after 2000 BC.

Kalevi Wiik was discussed here and elsewhere, can't find the respective thread right now though, but he is standing largely alone...

"History is written by the winners"... only recently some realistic theories about the history of Europe have came into existence.