Why did Azerbaijan lose to Armenia in the Nagorno Karabakh war?

[Sarmatian]

Why does it even matter when you yourself admit it was just a legal excuse?

It matters because you yourself used word could which implies you're talking about legal possibilities and not about real reasons.

Russia could punish a rabidly anti-Russian Georgia because of a division between Georgia and South Ossetia. Quite simple, really.

You're joking, right? The thing in bold doesn't exist. There are few radical hotheads in Georgia (as in any other country) and they used to be aimed by some skilled American advisers but calling the entire Georgia anti-Russian is insane. They have been allies to Russia for centuries and one mistake of political prostitutes in power won't make entire nation to change their cultural affinity in an instant.

By the way Shevardnadze, the very first Georgian prostitute who initiated all that mess, has died last week. I sincerely hope with him gone the anti-Russian political power in Georgia will lose a lot of ground and sane people will take rule back.

[Sarmatian]

True enough Caucasians were never unified and definitely had grievances between each other, but the lifestyle was also completely different. There was never open conflict between whole nations, disputes occurred and were settled on a personal/familial level without dragging other parties into it. Also, it's not like the relations were constantly terrible, there were countless instances of cooperation between communities even including defensive alliances in case of foreign invasion. Russia is blamed for aggravating the situation and upsetting the balance. With the arrival of Russians on the scene, the people that were useful for Russians to further their own goals suddenly gained overwhelming power and they used it to gain authority over much larger populations. In the past there was no way that Caucasians could behave as such without repercussions even from within their own community, but now they could freely exert their will through brute force and no one could stop them. Hostilities then flared up on a much greater level, not just between individuals, families or tribes, but entire nations. This was unprecedented and could not have occurred without foreign intervention.

And here is an example of North Caucasian unification that is relatively recent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountai...thern_Caucasus

It is fair to say Russia's presence aggravated local hostilities and created persisting disbalance of power. But I think it would've happened either way no matter which world power would've taken control of the region.

As for MRNC, do you believe such entity could've been a successful long term project? Even if we will take aside all external factors, do you think those nations could've coexisted peacefully and managed themselves effectively?

I've heard this countless times and maybe it's true from a Russian perspective. Maybe for a Russian living under the empire and then the USSR and now in the RF it is completely different, but honestly from a Chechen view it has never changed. It's the same thing with a different name each time. Yes, I realise we cannot blame modern Russians for the misdeeds of the empire and the mistakes of the Bolsheviks and certainly we would be willing to forgive everything that has happened in the past, it's not your fault that your ancestors behaved like this and probably even only a minority of them since the rest were being led like sheep. Of course you cannot erase 400 years of damage in a single instant, but the problem is today all we see in the Caucasus is just a continuation of the same evils. Can you deny that?

It has nothing to do with perspective. What I'm trying to say here is that you don't have to choose your neighbors, you have to deal with what you have at hands. And to deal with it effectively you have to be able to put all emotions from past experiences aside and learn about your opponent rationally. I know that some aspects of empire building are strongly repulsive to an average proud Chechen but it's not like you have much of a choice. It was the same for my ancestors just a few centuries earlier. You don't have to accept it, you have to learn to deal with it. What you and other Chechens see are the methods used and they indeed are same. But you have to look past it, you have to recognise your opponent's motives and goals so you can offer a different solutions. Otherwise you'll stuck in perpetual conflict fuelled by mutual hatred and it will only benefit some third side. That's why I say it is important that the faces of the players now are different from then.

In Russian culture, the Chechen has always been a boogeyman figure throughout the centuries and for what, fiercely defending his homeland against invaders? Can you honestly say that an average Russian has ever had second thoughts about Chechens being wicked? Russians have always had a disproportionately negative view of us and the only reason is because your government labelled us as enemies when in reality we were never a threat to you to begin with. All we ever demanded was to be left alone.

True, Chechens are demonized disproportionally in an average Russian's perception but I don't think government plays a big role in it. It's just clash of mentalities which are very different.

If it's going to make it easier for Russia to subjugate the Caucasus then what reason is there to accept it? I do not want Caucasians to be united under Russian terms and to serve Russian purposes, I want us to be united for our own sake.

Of course I cannot guarantee anything about the future, but don't you realise that these threats to Russian security exist today because of past events? The only reason Caucasians resort to these measures is because of desperation, they see no other way out of their situation. If Russians arrived as guests instead of conquerors to the Caucasus, there would have never been Islamic extremists or the possibility of NATO intervention there. In fact the situation, in my opinion, would be completely reversed, we would be fighting against NATO and Islamic extremists with Russia as allies. Chechens don't hate Russians simply because they are Russians, they hate them for the death, destruction and, more than anything, subjugation they brought. I can guarantee you if it was any other nation that invaded and conquered the Caucasus first before Russia, they would be facing the exact same mess whether they were Muslims, Christians, Jews, Asians or Europeans.

You're thinking as a true son of mountains, you want to be left alone. But today isolationism is not an option. Whether you want it or not you're part of the Big Game now and there is no way out. It happens to everyone sooner or later. It's time to make a choice and take a side.

And I'm sure Georgians feel similarly and have good reasons to fear Russia. The relationship between Russia and Georgia was not that of equal allies, but master and slave. Russians didn't really care about defending Georgians from the Ottomans, they were more concerned with their own interests. Maybe Georgians feel that Russia went too far, I'm sure they want to protect their culture not only from Ottomans, but also from Russian domination as well.

I can't agree with you here. The only reason for Georgia to fear Russia is if they'll do something really stupid like bombing Tskhinval with 'Grads'. Russians could've taken Tbilisi but they didn't. Did you ever wonder why?

Also I'm not a stranger at Caucasus and I'm not aware of any danger to Georgian culture from Russian influence. So no, there are no reasons for Georgians to be anti-Russian. In fact they have a unique position at Caucasus where they have no obvious long-term enemy. They should develop their neutral stance and potentially can become a sort of Caucasian Switzerland.

On the topic of betrayal, Chechens certainly have much to say.

I know about complex relationships between some of Caucasus natives and Empire but I was asking specifically about Russia's long-term allies. Have Russia ever betrayed them?

It makes sense to me as well and any rational person would agree, as long as we respect one another and see each other as equals.

Equality is a tricky thing. It's only possible on the matters of mutual concern. Russia is huge and resourceful and there will always be matters where it will dominate. For example there is no way independent Chechnya or even entire united Caucasus will have enough resources to develop their own nuclear or space program. So Russia will always have an advantage just like any other big country developed to a certain degree.

On the other hand, if Russia is going to control Caucasians through constant threats and coercion then there is no point in discussing such matters.

Well it seems today threats and coercion is the only thing that really works. Unfortunately. It saddens me to see all that knot of centuries old haterd. Many things are result of cultural misunderstandings and could've been avoided if people knew each other a little better or put a little more effort into it.

One thing is certain: the old-style way of life is thing of the past. Your people will have to learn to deal with the bigger picture. And actually your neigbors Armenians can teach you a lot about it, they are being involved in it for over thousand of years now.

[Sarmatian]

...The Armenians are dumb nationalist only in this question without any difference from the Turks.

That one made me laugh. How many Armenians do you know in real life?

[LightHouse89]

That one made me laugh. How many Armenians do you know in real life?

I like greeks and armenians but they are very old school christians where I live and they look at others as pagans. They are generally nice people though. I like yugoslavs more than them though they are more like my crowd of people

[LightHouse89]

Sarmatian....I would give anything for isolationism.

[blogen]

That one made me laugh. How many Armenians do you know in real life?

These Armenians in here. I do not have Armenian friends.