Lexical Distances

[Jarl]

Just imagine Latvia is a monarchy. Your duke dies, and Russians take over the country. Or actually they take it by force coz Prussia took it from Austria by force, in the Austro-Prussian war. They ban Latvian from schools, ship 100s of 1000s of Russians in, and forbid you to marry a person who does not speak Russian....

[Tabiti]

Are you certain about that? I have heard that Slovak is the closest language to the Southern Slavic branch. I read, that Polish (and the whole Lechitic branch) is a bit of an outlier. Old Church Slavonic was a common language reflecting the dialects of the whole Southern Slavic branch. It was the language in which Saints Cyril and Methodius evangelised Czechs and Moravians. Also, in early Medieval Ages both Southern Slav, and Czecho-Slovaks were represented by the Prague culture, while Lechitic tribes represented quite a different model, called Sukow-Dziedzice, or Sukow-Szeligi.

I haven't had any conversations with Slovaks but with Czech and Polish people (also been in Czech republic) so I know the difference. As far as I know Slovaks speak a little different dialect than Czech people do. Old Church Slavonic sounds like a mixture between Bulgarian and Russian and in fact I understand Russian best from the other similar languages (if we exclude the so called "Macedonian" which is just a Serbized western dialect). This is also because the Rusophile tendencies in 19th century which influenced our vocabulary in big degree.

[Inese]

Hm lawspeakers map show that total most parts of Pomeria , Silesia and East prussia had very large German population and that some Polish minoritys were only at the borders of the regions!! And to take away all regions from Germany completly and displace million of German people was a very bad crime!

You know , Germany wanted only a corridor to Danzig and East prussia before war ---- there was a corridor before first world war but winning powers took it away after the war!! But Poland said " No never!!" 1938 and 1939 and that made Germany angry.

No. Poland did not take it away, but the USSR and the Red Army.

Hm okay USSR and Red Army took it away from Germany but Poland was very fast to open the hands to receive the gift!!

- kulturkampf, ban on Polish language in schools, administration and public places,

- ban on Polish folk traditions

I tell you , Polish people did the same on German population minoritys. And please do you want to tell the people here how Poland marched in in Czechoslovakia and annexed parts of the country in 1938 or early 1939??? It was a break of international law also but nobody punished it!

I know being a German you love Germany. However, I ask you to at least try to be more objective and just. Silesia, Pomerania, East Prussia. Each of these lands had its own different history. And history is seldom simple and easy. It's not a cartoon - these are the "goodies", these are the "baddies". Its a complex story.

I am only 25% German and my nationality is Latvian but i love Germany and the history is very interesting. History is not black and white but it is truth that parts of original German regions are Polish now and were not populated with majority Polish people until German were expelled or killed in millions 1945!

[Jarl]

Hm lawspeakers map show that total most parts of Pomeria , Silesia and East prussia had very large German population and that some Polish minoritys were only at the borders of the regions!!

West Pomerania was utterly germanised by WWII. So yes - it was purely German at that time. But for the sake of truth it has to be stressed that originally it was a Lechitic country - the Duchy of West Pomerania, inhabited by Pomeranians and Polabians (Lutici). Likewise, Lower Silesia was almost enitely germanised, apart from several Polish-speaking border villages. Yet, again to get a full picture, it has to be said that it was once Polish and ruled by the Polish Piast dynasty. In contrast, Upper Silesia was still strongly Polish in character. Thats why Polish-speaking Silesians fought in 1919-1920 against the Germans, as they wanted their region to become a part of Poland (After WWI even Lusatian Sorbs wanted to join Czechoslovakia or Poland). East Prussia was heavily germanised by WWII, though still had a large Polish-speaking minority. Some of them remained in Poland after WWII, many left for Germany during communism.

And to take away all regions from Germany completly and displace million of German people was a very bad crime!

Indeed it was a terrible crime, instigated by communists from Moscow. Invading Poland, stealing Polish arts, burning Polish heritage and exterminating nearly 5 millions Polish citizens in concentration camps, while displacing millions more was a very bad crime too.

You know , Germany wanted only a corridor to Danzig and East prussia before war ---- there was a corridor before first world war but winning powers took it away after the war!! But Poland said " No never!!" 1938 and 1939 and that made Germany angry.
Hm okay USSR and Red Army took it away from Germany but Poland was very fast to open the hands to receive the gift!!

Poland had nothing to say. There was no "Poland". Democratically elected Polish government was in London by that time... on exile. Germany did not want only Sudetenland in 1938, and it did not want only the corridor in 1939. It was an ultimatum no independent country would ever accept. In 1941 it turned out even Poland was not enough for Germany...

I tell you , Polish people did the same on German population minoritys. And please do you want to tell the people here how Poland marched in in Czechoslovakia and annexed parts of the country in 1938 or early 1939??? It was a break of international law also but nobody punished it!

No. Polish people did not do "the same" to the Germans. Poles did not bomb and raze down whole German cities. Poles did not exterminate 5 million German citizens, and Poles did not make concentration camps for Germans or steal away German children. Poles did not occupy Germany and did not kill 100 German civilians for a single Polish soldier.

Czechoslovakian-Polish conflict started in 1920. When Poland was fighting the Russian Bolshevik invasion in the East, Czechs took advantage and annexed several disputed border regions. With most of its armies engaged in Ukraine, and a growing pressure from Western powers, Poland was forced to accept this fait accompli and cede these villages to Czechoslovakia. But I agree. What Poland did in 1938 was shameful.

I am only 25% German and my nationality is Latvian but i love Germany and the history is very interesting. History is not black and white but it is truth that parts of original German regions are Polish now and were not populated with majority Polish people until German were expelled or killed in millions 1945!

It is true. I never denied it. Regions like Pomerania or Silesia have a rich German hertiage, This German-Polish coexistence, though uneasy, gave rise to many cultural phenomena which I admire and Im proud of. But this is history. And we have little influence over what happened. Expulsion of German population from Silesia was bad and despicable, just like the ruthless germanisation enforced on the simple rural populations of Silesia in XVIII and XIX centuries.


I know your German ancestry obliges you. Im very glad you are a patriot. Germany definitely needs people like that. But at least try to look at some issues from the other side too. I know its difficult and hard, But only then you can get the big image and gain a better understanding. Just like you said - history is not black and white. Silesians did not ask for 100s 1000s German immigrants and enforced germanisation in XVIII century. Neither Silesian Germans did ask for the Red Army and expulsions from their homeland in 1945. Yet after German atrocities commited in Poland and Russia, retribution was inevitable. Both evils that were done to these people were beyond their control. Germanisation was enforced from Koningsberg and WWII expulsions from Moscow. That's why one should not blame "the Germans" for the Prussian germanisation of Poles, or "the Poles" for expulsions conducted by the Soviet regime.

[Zyklop]

Poles did not make concentration camps for Germans

Szczypiorno, Stralkowo, Bereza-Kartuska and Brest-Litowsk - Polish concentration camps for ethnic Germans and Ukrainians since the 1920s.

or steal away German children. Poles did not occupy Germany and did not kill 100 German civilians for a single Polish soldier.

Bydgoszcz (Bromberg), Jezioro Jezuickie

Death in Poland - The Fate of the Ethnic Germans

[Jarl]

Szczypiorno, Stralkowo, Bereza-Kartuska and Brest-Litowsk - Polish concentration camps for ethnic Germans and Ukrainians since the 1920s.

I will back what I said before - "Poles did not make concentration/extermination camps for Germans".


Szczypiorno and Bereza-Kartuska were prisons, not concentration or death camps. They were detention camps for communists and Ukrainian nationalists. Noone was tortured nor executed there. These detention camps had nothing to do with Germans or WWII. Szczypiorno was closed down in 1924. Strzałkowo was a GERMAN WWI camp for war prisoners. Taken over by Poland after WWI it bacame a temporary prison for the Bolshevik war prisoners. Again, noone tortured nor exectured Germans there: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob%C3%B...rza%C5%82kowem

Brześć Litewski was a detention camp for Bolshevik war prisoners. There was an outbreak of cholera and typhoid fever. Over 1000 Russian inmates died, and the camp was subsequently closed by a commissoon sent by the government. Prisoners were taken to other camps. In none of these camps mass executions were conducted. They were not extermination camps. And there were no Germans ever kept there (for the reason of being German).

Bydgoszcz (Bromberg), Jezioro Jezuickie Death in Poland - The Fate of the Ethnic Germans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1939)

What exactly happened on this day is unclear. According to the traditional Polish version, the incident is related the activities of groups of German saboteurs attacking Polish troops behind the front lines.[7][8] As a contingent of the Polish Army from Pomerania (Army Pomorze's 9th, 15th, and 27th Infantry Division)[8]) was withdrawing through Bydgoszcz it was attacked by German irregulars from within the city and reported to be engaging enemy snipers. In the ensuing fight both sides suffered some casualties; captured German nonuniformed armed insurgents were executed on spot and some mob lynching was also reported.[8][9][10][11] Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau investigation in 1939 and 1940 concluded that the events were a result of panic and confusion among the Polish troops.[12] To a significant extent, those conclusions are repeated in post-war German historiography.

(...)

is hard to say how many Germans died exclusively during the Bloody Sunday. German author Peter Aurich gave a number of German civilian deaths in Bydgoszcz as 366 deaths.[18] Hugo Rasmus estimates the number of ethnic German deaths in Bydgoszcz as "at least 415".[3] Two Polish historians - Włodzimierz Jastrzębski and Czesław Madajczyk estimate ethnic German deaths at 103 (Jastrzębski), and about 300 (150 on September 3, the rest in the days after) (Madajczyk).[11

That was an uclear incident during German invasion.Polish scholars claim it was instigated by German paramilitaries. However, even the German scholars write that the situation was caused by chaos and fear:

According to Aurich, author of the most thorough German account (according to Harry Gordon[5]), after police forces retreated from Bydgoszcz, agitated Polish civilians charged many Germans with assaulting Polish soldiers and executed them and any Poles who stood up in their defense.[5] Rasmus attributes the situation to confusion and the disorganized state of the Polish forces in the city.[18] Along those lines Christian Raitz von Frentz wrote that "In Bydgoszcz, the event was probably caused by confusion among the rapidly retreating soldiers, a general breakdown in public order and panic among the Polish majority after two German air raids and the discovery of a small reconnaissance group of the German army on the previous day."[3]

You cannot compare 100-500 deaths in street riots, or a chaotic massacre which begun from a skirmish between German irregulars and Polish soldiers, to 5 million Polish citizens, many of whom were shot dead or exterminated in special camps constructed for that purpose, as a part of a larger Nazi policy to eradicate the whole Polish nation... completely.

[Zyklop]

They were detention camps for communists and Ukrainian nationalists.

In other words: they were concentration camps.

[Jarl]

In other words: they were concentration camps.

No. Szczypiorno and Bereza were called "obozy odosobnienia" (isolation camps). These were just special prisons for political enemies of the state - almost exclusively Polish communists and Ukrainian nationalists. As for Strzałkowo and Brest-Litovsk, they were concentration camps, but for the Bolshevik invaders, and not for the Germans. When Russians started dying because of diseases in Brest-Litovsk, a commission was sent and they were relegated to other, smaller, camps. And no, they were not extermination camps, like Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Majdanek. They were created for soldiers who were taken prisoners. They were not created for the purpose of exterminating civilian people of a given ethnicity.

[Zyklop]

Maybe you should look up the word concentration camp in a dictionary first.

concentration camp

  –noun a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc

http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...entration+camp

5 million Polish citizens, many of whom were shot dead or exterminated in special camps constructed for that purpose, as a part of a larger Nazi policy to eradicate the whole Polish nation... completely.

Please spare me with your theatrical hollywood claims.

A recent case from Marienburg (polish 'Malbork'):
2,000 German Citizens Buried in Poland

How convenient to blame it on the Red Army as if it the Polish militia that roamed East Germany wasn't known to all involved sides.

And another mass grave with executed children exhumed some weeks ago in Steinbach (polish 'Podła Góra'):

http://polskaweb.eu/massengrab-in-st...rn-545677.html

[Jarl]

Maybe you should look up the word concentration camp in a dictionary first.
http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...entration+camp

This definition is vague. Any prison with political enemies could qualify as a "concentration camp" according to this definition.

Concentration camps, in the proper definition, were built for the purpose of accomodating prisoners without a court trial. And these were large hosts of prisoners. Szczypiorno and Bereza were mere prisons. They were nothing like the Nazi concentration camps. Just read any historical account. It is the much later, stalinist propaganda, that made a "conentration camp" out of Bereza. Communists hated Pilsudski and the Polish right. Bereza accomodated a few hundred prisoners at most at any given time. Only 13-20 prisoners died in Bereza (one commiting a suicide). This in no way can be compared to German concentration/extermination camps for Poles. If you are interested in history then read about Bereza or detention camps for Bolshevik prisoners during the Bolshevik-Polish war in 1920. Poles never ever exterminated Germans (no any other ethnicity) in conenctration/extermination camps. This is a historical fact, not a fantasy by a "Polish nationalist".

And finally... what is your point? There were no Germans in Bereza or Brześć Litewski, so what I said before holds truth.

Please spare me with your theatrical hollywood claims.

A recent case from Marienburg (polish 'Malbork'):
2,000 German Citizens Buried in Poland

How convenient to blame it on the Red Army as if it the Polish militia that roamed East Germany wasn't known to all involved sides.

And another mass grave with executed children exhumed some weeks ago in Steinbach (polish 'Podła Góra'):

http://polskaweb.eu/massengrab-in-st...rn-545677.html

About the 2000 dead in Marienburg:

City officials think that the remains are of former German residents of the town that apparently died as the Red Army marched through Poland in 1945. As the Red Army was advancing in early 1945, the inhabitants of Malbork were ordered to evacuate. Some refused, while others were prevented from doing so by the general chaos. The Soviets then bombarded the city with heavy artillery in their assault. After the defeated German military retreated, the remaining civilians found themselves at the mercy of Red Army troops. There are no known living witnesses of what happened. The first skeletons were discovered by construction workers last October, while digging a hole for the foundation of a five-star hotel by the famous medieval castle located in this city. The work was then stopped and an exhumation, which took six months, was ordered. Workers found the bones of at least 2,100 men, women and children, but they couldn’t find any documents or personal belongings.

As for German victims burried in Steinbach (Podla Góra) all info I could find is: http://sycowice.net/index.php/2009/0...-podlej-gorze/ and http://www.gazetalubuska.pl/apps/pbc...AT13/407986762

And here: http://www.radio-freiheit.info/archives/3872

Für den Vorsitzenden des Vereines “Pomost” in Posen, Tomasz Czabanski, der die Ausgrabungen in Podla Góra im Einvernehmen mit der deutschen Kriegsgräberfürsorge in Kassel durchführt, waren die hier entdeckten Gebeine deutscher Zivilisten Opfer der roten Armee: “Die Russen waren bekanntlich nicht sehr ehrgeizig Kriegsgefangene zu übernehmen, was auch für die Zivilbevölkerung galt” - sagte kürzlich erst dieser Mann. Nach seiner Meinung sollen auch die toten Deutschen aus Podla Góra auf einem Soldatenfriedhof bei Stettin ihre letzte Ruhestätte finden.

These were most likely German refugees heading West. They were apparently killed with a shot to back of the head. The case is being investigated by historical foundations. From what I read, there used to be a Soviet detention camp for German refugees near Steinbach and these are probably the murdered victims.

How convenient to blame it on the Red Army as if it the Polish militia that roamed East Germany wasn't known to all involved sides.

Known for what precisely? Care to elaborate? And who was in charge of that militia? Soviet political officers and NKVD! And the war chaos caused by the passing of the Red Army canno't be blamed on Poles, even if some Polish soldiers participated in it (as a tiny fraction of the Red Army). The truth is that no democratically elected Polish authority commited atrocities on Germans. Ever. No democratically elected Polish government ordered mass execution of Germans and eradication of German ethnicity by industrial means.

You cannot blame the atrocities of the Soviets and the Red Army on the Poles. This is simply not just. Red Army pillaged Poland alike and commited atrocities on Poles as well, particularly in Silesia and on Prussian/Silesian borders. Not to mention 20, 000 exterminated officers in Katyn. and many thousands more exterminated intellectuals, professors, teachers, war veterans, and politicians. Either killed outright, tortured or sent to Siberian "gulags". Or the hundreds of 1000s Poles deported by the Soviets and forced out into exile. Soviets were not Poles. It was a regime imposed on Poles just like on East Germans. Don't be ridiculous.


P.S.

Spare you what? What is theatrical about 5 millions victioms murdered by the Nazi regime in Poland? These were victims of an elaborate scheme, designed by a democratically elected German government, specifically to eradicate the Polish nation. However "theatrical" this terrible crime might look to you, its simply beyond any comparison.