Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

[Herr Abubu]

Oh, and as for Vlachs,

RO = Romanian, ARO = different Aromanian/Vlach groups, two first from Albania, penultimate two from Macedonia and last from Romania
http://i.imgur.com/mHTrzU5.jpg

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

Vlachs vary depending on where they're from, something anyone with one idea in their head would have known. Considering that Slavic presence was much, much higher than Vlach presence, it's really stupid claiming it must be due to Vlachs. You'd know there were tonnes of Slavs in Epirus by the fact that so much of the toponymy, both in the Greek part (http://i46.fastpic.ru/thumb/2013/0523/0e/a733a31b02252e82997fff71fb1c210e.jpeg) and Albanian part (I (http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/seli_sna/selish_slavic.png) II (http://www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/sel...avicnames2.gif)). Maps by German linguist Max Vasmer (http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/index.html). Even if you were completely ignorant of history, you'd realize that there must have been a large presence of Slavs in Albania when something like a third of the toponyms in Albania are Slavic, most of those being in the south. That is, if you're not one of the Albanians on this forum. In other words, unless you are immaculately stupid and unfair.

[Lek]

Vlachs and Albanians are the same people, with additional foreign input.

[catgeorge]

Dude- you are the one who has absolutely no clue. Did you see that the person in Greece matches perfectly someone from Poland in a clade that is 2200 years old??? Can you understand that the Neolithic is thousands of years older than that???? Yes, I know Neolithic expansion happened in Greece - but this clade is NOT related to it, and the evidence is that first appeared around the time of the Roman Empire expansion. Geezus- you're dense as fuck. Your little MS paint map is irrelevant.


I can only conclude that you are a. I2a1b2 and b. Completely delusional as far as the genetic impact of Slavic peoples in Balkans ( for some bogus nationalist reasons).





I'm an idiot who pretends to be intelligent ? What are you? A degenerate who knows he's an imbecile???
Sure, laugh it up. It's natural for you to share such alliances - you and dear cat George almost certainly share a Slavic -speaking ancestor in the past 1200 years. Bros for life.

It is impossible for someone to be this dogmatic and bereft of any braincells whatsoever. I am beginning to believe you smoke crack.

Here is a few more sources.

The gentic signature of Neolithic Greece (recommended)

http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf


In order to gain insights in the past demographic dynamics of the two Greek
populations analysed a Bayesian coalescent approach was used using Y-chromosomes
STR data. The adoption of agriculture should have favoured a rapid and strong
demographic expansion which probably has left a detectable genetic footprint
(Ammerman & Cavalli-Sforza 1984; Boyle & Renfrew 2000). Estimates of time since
expansion points towards an earlier adoption of agriculture in Euboea, approximately
8,8Kya whereas for Korinthia the estimate was slightly more recent (7Kya) dating more
closely to the late Neolithic horizon. The same Bayesian approach was also used to
estimate the times since expansion of the main Greek haplogroups in order to assess the
haplogroups that could be associated with the Neolithic transition in Greece. The only
haplogroup that showed times since expansion compatible with the Neolithic is J2aM410
which has already been associated with Neolithic transition by several other
studies (Sengupta et al., 2006; King et al., 2008; Battaglia et al., 2009). All the other
haplogroups shows expansion dates consistent with the late Neolithic/initial Bronze Age
horizon (R1b-M269 and E1b-V13) and the initial/late Bronze Age horizon (R1a-M17,
G2a-P15, I2-M438, J1-M267 and J2b-M102).


Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry
Sena Karachanak , Viola Grugni , Simona Fornarino, Desislava Nesheva, Nadia Al-Zahery, Vincenza Battaglia, Valeria Carossa, Yordan Yordanov, Antonio Torroni, Angel S. Galabov, Draga Toncheva , Ornella Semino
Published: March 6, 2013http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0056779



aplogroup Frequency Distribution

From the total of 75 binary markers genotyped, 50 turned out to be informative. The most parsimonious relationships and the frequencies of the corresponding haplogroups are presented in Figure 2.

Western Eurasian haplogroups were found to encompass almost the entire Bulgarian Y-chromosome pool. Contributions from Central Asia (Hg C-M217) [40], [41], Northern Eurasia (Hg N-M231) and South West Asia (Hg Q-M242 derivatives, Hg L-M61 and Hg R-M124) [32], [42] were detected at almost negligible frequencies.

The most prevalent haplogroups in Bulgarians are I-M423 (20.2%) and E-V13 (18.1%). They represent the autochthonous and nearly endemic sub-clades of I-P37 and E-M78 in Southeastern Europe, respectively [34], [43]. Third in frequency is the common Eurasian haplogroup R-M17, which was found in 17.5% of Bulgarians, with 42.9% of them belonging to the European specific R-M458 sub-clade [36]. Haplogroup R-L23*, the eastern branch of the western Eurasian R-M269 haplogroup [37], relates the paternal ancestry of 5.2% of Bulgarians, representing nearly half of the M269 derived Y chromosomes. Next in frequency is Hg I-M253 (4.3%), which accounts for the majority of haplogroup I-M170 individuals in Northern Europe [44], [45]. It is followed by two J-M172 sub-branches, namely J-M241 and J-M530, observed at a frequency of 3.8% and 2.4%, respectively. The rest of the phylogenetically terminal haplogroups harboured frequency values of less than 2%.

These are four separate sources from four different researches - to cut a long story rt as I understand you have comprehension issues. I2a is proto European from first or old Europe most probably with J1. It was there before the neolithic expansion of E & G

[Scholarios]

It is impossible for someone to be this dogmatic and bereft of any braincells whatsoever. I am beginning to believe you smoke crack.






How long did it take you to sniff out those snippets which have absolutely nothing to do with the topic?


I understand that some I could potentially be in the Balkans pre-Slavs. But there is this little thing called subclades which you just do not understand, I guess. Some of the ones I posted are specifically linked to medieval slavic invasions. Can you answer- exactly how a subclade that was born 2200 years ago in Poland could have anything to do with Greek neolithic, Thracians, Illyrians? Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs have it because the Slavs brought it. End of story. Now continue the cognitive dissonance without me.




"""Progress in the field of y-DNA testing (Y-DNA sequencing) allowed to confirm that previously done TMRCA estimates for I2-L621(Dinaric) were accurate and I2-DIN(L621) is young.
There are 90+ SNPs on the level of L621 what indicates long bottleneck that lasted through Neolithic, bronze age and big part of iron age period. So the whole Dinaric branch stems from one man who lived around the year of foundation of Rome in Central-Eastern Europe, most likely as a part of proto-Slavic people.

Frequency is meaningless and calculations show that diversity and TMRCA of I2-L621 decreases in the southerly direction. So the frequency in Balkans(Bosnia in particular) is a result of relatively recent founder effect, that happened at start of Slavic presence there and later strengthened regionally. It was just a chance, that Bosnia now is 60% I2, not 60% R1a.

As for now, L621* is found only in Poland and Western Ukraine, Polish haplotype was sequenced. The tree of Dinaric branch is available here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

So yes, it's slavic. Very young age allows for ethnic specification of this branch.""




Ok, I am exhausted from all this anthrotarding.

[Wrong]

It's only 40 samples on average for each population in that haplomap.

I'll be generous and state 500+ samples atleast or bullshit. Most of those Vlachs tested were prbably related or from the same villages which provided sample bias.

[Herr Abubu]

It's only 40 samples on average for each population in that haplomap.

I'll be generous and state 500+ samples atleast or bullshit. Most of those Vlachs tested were prbably related or from the same villages which provided sample bias.

From a statistics pov, the sample size isn't particularly bad or anything. The 500+ number is completely arbitrary. It also doesn't change anything whether Vlachs are 100% I2a or only 50% I2a for reasons I've already explained. Stop coping.

[Dema]

You do not want to listen because you have limited thinking capacity. I2a1 has been in Europe forever. Its one of the proto splits from cro magnons in Europe. The map is not mine it is direct from the sciencemag if you cared to look at the link.

I would not care if I shared slavic nor albanian ancestery, you are the only one that wants and needs it in typical marxist fashion - then twist it in a nationalistic ideology without looking at the facts. Enough tired of your limited brain capacity.

Whaat you are not R1b afterall, are you really I2a1???

[Wrong]

From a statistics pov, the sample size isn't particularly bad or anything. The 500+ number is completely arbitrary. It also doesn't change anything whether Vlachs are 100% I2a or only 50% I2a for reasons I've already explained. Stop coping.It is, you are the one cherrypicking the results. It's not showing the whole picture.

We have Albanian Gheg tribal ftdna results with J2b2 majority despite Ghegs scoring more EV13 in general.

[Kelmendasi]

It is, you are the one cherrypicking the results. It's not showing the whole picture.

We have Albanian Gheg tribal ftdna results with J2b2 majority despite Ghegs scoring more EV13 in general.
Mainly the North-eastern Clans seem to be scoring the most J2b2

[Laberia]

You do not want to listen because you have limited thinking capacity. I
I would not care if I shared slavic nor albanian ancestery, you are the only one that wants and needs it in typical marxist fashion - then twist it in a nationalistic ideology without looking at the facts. Enough tired of your limited brain capacity.
Aaaaaa, just perfect. Every word at the right place. Keep crushing his cuman scull. Belive me, i know that feeling.

[Dema]

How percent is the I2a1 and how is tghe R1a?
And another question. Is this I2a1 the same with I2a-Din?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x11.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x12.xls

[Scholarios]

Aaaaaa, just perfect. Every word at the right place. Keep crushing his cuman scull. Belive me, i know that feeling.

You don't know English well enough, I think honestly.

Numb skull neo-Greek and deported drug dealer are bosom buddies. Seriously, bloody subhumans.

[Herr Abubu]

It is, you are the one cherrypicking the results. It's not showing the whole picture.

We have Albanian Gheg tribal ftdna results with J2b2 majority despite Ghegs scoring more EV13 in general.

No, I simply posted the one study that exists on Vlach Y-DNA distribution, which is as expected. What's also expected for it to be misunderstood as an argument on its own. It isn't, that's why I wrote underneath it. No matter the distribution Y-DNA distribution in Vlachs, which is clearly not uniform and which makes total sense unless you're stupid, it's clearly not from them because of historical facts regarding not only South Albania, but the whole of Epirus. The Vlach explanation makes absolutely no sense and is an obvious cope mechanism when the facts point elsewhere.

[Laberia]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x11.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x12.xls

Dema, i don't understand why you decided to answer to this question. This was a question for another member.


How percent is the I2a1 and how is tghe R1a?
And another question. Is this I2a1 the same with I2a-Din?
The question for you was this:

What is the opinion of the experts in this forum about your question, i mean about this 30%?
10%,and why10%?
Dema, and all the others, can you tell me how % of this 104 Tosk Albanians are R1a? Here is the study:

[Drawing-slim]

Epic thread,lol
It only means that the rest of balkans & europe expects albanians to be so pure that finding 10 indivdual cases of I2a feels like a tragic news to them and they feel responsible to hold us accountable for it. Which i can understand;)

[Herr Abubu]

Epic thread,lol
It only means that the rest of balkans & europe expects albanians to be so pure that finding 10 indivdual cases of I2a feels like a tragic news to them and they feel responsible to hold us accountable for it. Which i can understand;)

It's insecurity stemming from a false sense of national identity. If these people scored I2a, they'd either kill themselves, have themselves sent to a mental asylum or become Bosniak nationalists or something.

[Laberia]

Epic thread,lol
It only means that the rest of balkans & europe expects albanians to be so pure that finding 10 indivdual cases of I2a feels like a tragic news to them and they feel responsible to hold us accountable for it. Which i can understand;)
We don`t know really how many individual cases of this 104 Tosk Albanians were with this kind of problematic I2a-etc. I have asked many times this, but nobody can give me an answer. I don`t know the reason.

[Kelmendasi]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x11.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x12.xls
I was able to find another Gheg with J1 on here although they seem unrelated to me unfortunatley.
I found other Albos with it as well

[Kelmendasi]

Dema what does "ISN" stand for in the table?

[Herr Abubu]

We don`t know really how many individual cases of this 104 Tosk Albanians were with this kind of problematic I2a-etc. I have asked many times this, but nobody can give me an answer. I don`t know the reason.

Which study are you referring to and what's the percentage? It's very likely that you've already been told because to anyone with a brain functional enough to do basic math it should be very, very easy to figure out the number of 104 Tosks that had I2a going by the percentage of Tosks in this sample with I2a. You are truly something.

[ilir]

Apparently, you feel like you are being raped. This is just discussion though.

Na zdravie, Brat!

Why should i feel that way ?? You are not the only one who can troll here?
Later maybe i can learn serbo-croatian and greek why not.

[Dema]

Dema, i don't understand why you decided to answer to this question. This was a question for another member.


The question for you was this:

It is same question and same answer. I see that there are 104 Tosks tested and around 120 Ghegs. Also Tosks have more then one I-haplogroup types and some of them are I1.
I am not that familiar with I2a2 and R1a to be able to analyse this data so fast, someone who is more familiar with these haplos would be able to pull out percentages much faster and i dont have that time nor will now.
Like you see Kelmendasi already managed to find some J1 on that list.

What i can tell you 100 is too small number to make some theories and maps about it also this Eupedia map in first page is for sure representing more then just I2a-Din since you see how much of it is in Sardinia when we know that Sardinian and I2a-din split long time ago so it is not same clade of I2a2. But also we know that almost all of Balkan I2a2 is Dinaric (CTS 10228) meaning they all come out of a single man who lived 2400 years ago around Poland.




Dema what does "ISN" stand for in the table?

I dont know.

[Laberia]

Which study are you referring to and what's the percentage? It's very likely that you've already been told because to anyone with a brain functional enough to do basic math it should be very, very easy to figure out the number of 104 Tosks that had I2a going by the percentage of Tosks in this sample with I2a. You are truly something.

Was difficult for you to find? Ok, no problem, here it is:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/full/ejhg2015138a.html

Ghegs get around 6% I2+r1a combined.

Tosks about 23%

Arbereshe about 30%

(I do not count I1- brought by Normans, Goths, Catalans, etc)


You can interpret that any way your little heart desires.

[Kelmendasi]

I dont know.
I think it's the code used for Arbereshe people

[Kelmendasi]

It's great that I was able to find more J1 Albos especially Ghegs

[ilir]

But yes, I agree South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically, but by Gheg Albanians. What Y-DNA distributions tells us is that, at least paternally, Gheg Albanians have very little genetic influence from South Slavs, Tosks have many times more than Ghegs. Meaning that South Slavs assimilated Ghegs, while Tosks assimilated South Slavs.

Talking about 1500 years ago and saying ghegs and tosk it doesn’t have much sense you think.

Basically you agree that Albanian speaking individuals are the core of the population that affected all the neighbouring countries as the study says.Or better the one that didn't assimilate throe slavization, hellenisation and latinisation. And the highest levels of IBD sharing that are found in the albanian-speaking individuals are just their link to their assimilated common ancestors.
So they are ilirians epirots dardans ???

[Laberia]

Epic thread,lol
It only means that the rest of balkans & europe expects albanians to be so pure that finding 10 indivdual cases of I2a feels like a tragic news to them and they feel responsible to hold us accountable for it. Which i can understand;)
E di ate shprehjen e famshme te Edi Rames? "Prisni se s`keni pare gje akoma".

[Herr Abubu]

Was difficult for you to find? Ok, no problem, here it is:

Why would I bother sifting through the thread to find it when I knew you could do it for me? It's 16.5%. See, you do the menial tasks, I do the thinking. That's how we cooperate.

[ilir]

Was difficult for you to find? Ok, no problem, here it is:

Nigjo per me gjet haplogrupin mundesh me fut te dhanat e ydna pra numrat te ky http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm psh edhe djathtas ne kolone te del haplogrupi
Po duhet me pas kujdes qe te korrespondojne markersat qe merr me vendin ku do ti analizosh. psh DYS393 te DYS393 e parashikuesit e keshtu me rradhe ateher e gjen te sakte se sa jane e si jane se une si besoj fort asaj qe thote ai.

[DRUM]

Nigjo per me gjet haplogrupin mundesh me fut te dhanat e ydna pra numrat te ky http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm psh edhe djathtas ne kolone te del haplogrupi
Po duhet me pas kujdes qe te korrespondojne markersat qe merr me vendin ku do ti analizosh. psh DYS393 te DYS393 e parashikuesit e keshtu me rradhe ateher e gjen te sakte se sa jane e si jane se une si besoj fort asaj qe thote ai.

nevgen osht ma i mire
http://www.nevgen.org/

[cosmoo]

This thread is so full of false data, many can't even differentiate between different I2a clades, yet they feel like they can speak on subject with authority.
Just to get grasp of how big distance is: northern I2a1a split from Sardinian I2a1a 17.000+ years ago, let alone I2a1b here, which split even earlier.


I never bothered learning about other y-dna clades other than my own but I2a1 seems very interesting regarding the balkans. I wonder why it's more common with balkan slavs than with other slavs. Could be the same reason as to why E-v13 is more common with albanians. They fucked like rabbits and had 10+ kids per family since the middle ages. What else are you gonna do in the mountans other than fuck and eat.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1
The reason why I2a1b is more common on western Balkans than among northern Slavs is because it got Slavicized after Slavic ethnogenesis. In case it participated in Slavic ethnogenesis, it would be evenly distributed. So there are two possibilites: either it got linguistically Slavicized before, or after coming to Balkans. Geographic distribution of I2a1b and R1a in Yugoslavia (more I2a1b in infertile, mountainous areas, while R1a is dominant in plains) suggests second scenario.
BTW that Eupedia article is utterly outdated and nonsensical. There was no I2a1b in SE Europe in Neolithic. It's calculated TMRCA and place of origin don't fit in it, neither do ancient DNA findings, I2a1b-(M423) being found predominantly in northern Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. It all points out to the fact that it came somewhere during Migration Era (5th-6th century).

[Laberia]

Why would I bother sifting through the thread to find it when I knew you could do it for me? It's 16.5%. See, you do the menial tasks, I do the thinking. That's how we cooperate.
can you quote from the study? Thanks in advance.

[Herr Abubu]

can you quote from the study? Thanks in advance.

I can't view it because you need some program to open up the files with the figures. Trojet has it, though (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?179004-A-new-study-(2015)-comparing-Albanian-(Ghegs-Tosks)-Y-DNA-haplogroups-with-Arbereshe).

[Kelmendasi]

To all the guys at Foleja or Albanian bloodlines project I just upgraded to Family finder

[kuqezi]

Without reading the whole thread I'll just say a few things.

Tosks are not much more ethnically Slavic-derived than Ghegs since they plot (atleast on 23andme) with Ghegs and even show a tendency to plot on the southern end of the Albanian cluster. Even the southern most 'Slavs', the Macedonians and Bulgarians, plot north of Ghegs.

The Slavs that settled in southern Albania from around 600 AD were undifferentiated or 'generic' Slavs, not 'Bulgarians'. Bulgaria as a political entity later encorporated the Slavicized southern Albania. So southern Albania was no more 'Bulgarian' then the territory of modern Serbia was up to Belgrade under the Bulgars. That being said the population of southern Albania prior to Albanian migrations from the north would have been similar to the native-Slavic mixture in Macedonia, southern Epirus etc. I believe the historical record shows that Albanian migrants cleansed a good part of the area of its inhabitants, toponyms remained.

I don't think Slavic ydna is more then than 20 percent, maximimum 25, of southern Albanians, and I think that is VERY generous. If there is indeed that much or more Slavic blood in Tosks then they would also have to be mixed with other groups that would plot a lot more south than Ghegs on their own. Only that would explain where Tosks do plot, but I don't think thats the case given what is known about Bulgarians/Macedonians. It's just unrealistic to say that without Slavic admixture the Tosks would plot a lot more south than they do now. The people in southern Albania before the Slavs showed up were not from Crete or Cyprus.

Genetic ydna studies are likely to produce a good amount of error vs what they are trying to represent. It's like when they test a whole bunch of people from one village or clan that have the same origin. There has to be some ethnographic discernment in these studies for them to relect the real situation. Right now the only group competent enough to give an accurate assessment of the geneto-ethnic situation of the Albanians are the few mods over at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna.

[Laberia]

Without reading the whole thread I'll just say a few things.

Tosks are not much more ethnically Slavic-derived than Ghegs since they plot (atleast on 23andme) with Ghegs and even show a tendency to plot on the southern end of the Albanian cluster. Even the southern most 'Slavs', the Macedonians and Bulgarians, plot north of Ghegs.

The Slavs that settled in southern Albania from around 600 AD were undifferentiated or 'generic' Slavs, not 'Bulgarians'. Bulgaria as a political entity later encorporated the Slavicized southern Albania. So southern Albania was no more 'Bulgarian' then the territory of modern Serbia was up to Belgrade under the Bulgars. That being said the population of southern Albania prior to Albanian migrations from the north would have been similar to the native-Slavic mixture in Macedonia, southern Epirus etc. I believe the historical record shows that Albanian migrants cleansed a good part of the area of its inhabitants, toponyms remained.

I don't think Slavic ydna is more then than 20 percent, maximimum 25, of southern Albanians, and I think that is VERY generous. If there is indeed that much or more Slavic blood in Tosks then they would also have to be mixed with other groups that would plot a lot more south than Ghegs on their own. Only that would explain where Tosks do plot, but I don't think thats the case given what is known about Bulgarians/Macedonians. It's just unrealistic to say that without Slavic admixture the Tosks would plot a lot more south than they do now. The people in southern Albania before the Slavs showed up were not from Crete or Cyprus.

Genetic ydna studies are likely to produce a good amount of error vs what they are trying to represent. It's like when they test a whole bunch of people from one village or clan that have the same origin. There has to be some ethnographic discernment in these studies for them to relect the real situation. Right now the only group competent enough to give an accurate assessment of the geneto-ethnic situation of the Albanians are the few mods over at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna.

When happened this migration of Albanians from North to South Albania? And how did this Albanians cleansed this slavs? What the historical records say about this?

[Laberia]

I can't view it because you need some program to open up the files with the figures. Trojet has it, though (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?179004-A-new-study-(2015)-comparing-Albanian-(Ghegs-Tosks)-Y-DNA-haplogroups-with-Arbereshe).

So, basically you are telling me that this retard of your friends, Scholarios has not any idea about the percentage of this famous I2a when he posted this study in this thread with the title: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania.
Great. I have no doubt that he is an retard troll.

[Skerdilaid]

It's only 40 samples on average for each population in that haplomap.

I'll be generous and state 500+ samples atleast or bullshit. Most of those Vlachs tested were prbably related or from the same villages which provided sample bias.

Samples are low but still indicative what the Vlahs/Aromanians of southern Albania are, and honestly it would be impossible now days to get a bigger sample because in majority they have disintegrated and assimilated. To my opinion they are not the source of I2a. What's interesting though they differ from other Vlah groups and seem to be more similar to us on regards to J2b2 (PH1751?) and R1b-BY611 - perhaps latinized local Illyrians? That would be my best guess.

[Herr Abubu]

So, basically you are telling me that this retard of your friends, Scholarios has not any idea about the percentage of this famous I2a when he posted this study in this thread with the title: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania.
Great. I have no doubt that he is an retard troll.

No, I am telling you that you aren't very good at counting.

[Laberia]

No, I am telling you you aren't very good at counting.

And why you didn`t this countings?

[Herr Abubu]

And why you didn`t this countings?

I don't speak retard, be more clear.

[kuqezi]

When happened this migration of Albanians from North to South Albania? And how did this Albanians cleansed this slavs? What the historical records say about this?

It's been a while since I've looked at the details. Probably starting from 1300 AD or even earlier, the migrations were relatively rapid and went straight into the heart of Greece . I think the chronicle of John Musachi mentions the Slavs and their fate in southern Albania. Anyways search 'hammond map albanian migrations' on google images.

[Laberia]

I don't speak retard, be more clear.


So, basically you are telling me that this retard of your friends, Scholarios has not any idea about the percentage of this famous I2a when he posted this study in this thread with the title: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania.
Great. I have no doubt that he is an retard troll.

I think you can understand this.

[ilir]

Abubu i had a question for you http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204408-Slavic-I2a1-in-southern-Albania&p=4274060&viewfull=1#post4274060
when you have time, thanks in advance as Laberia say.

[Laberia]

It's been a while since I've looked at the details. Probably starting from 1300 AD or even earlier, the migrations were relatively rapid and went straight into the heart of Greece . Looks like the movie Independence Day. Any scientific paper who prove this? Because there are many questions.

I think the chronicle of John Musachi mentions the Slavs and their fate in southern Albania.
Insignificant, only in Opar, read here:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204408-Slavic-I2a1-in-southern-Albania&p=4269557&highlight=Muzaka#post4269557

Anyways search 'hammond map albanian migrations' on google images.
We have discussed here about this maps of Hammond:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190348-EU-recognises-the-Cham-issue-accepts-Albanian-file&p=4173569&viewfull=1#post4173569
Let me quote here Hammond:
The problem i hope to deal with is how did the Albanians get from this remote part of Kurvelesh down to all parts of Greek peninsula and indeed the greek islands....
So according to Hammond this people arrived from Kurvelesh, not from Kelmendi. Well, a little bit strange this Hammond.
Anyway, at least someone with a theory. After many threads and 55 pages in this thread, Scholarios is without a theory.

[Herr Abubu]

I think you can understand this.

I just told you and I have done so earlier in the thread, you 5 ft retard.

[Laberia]

I just told you and I have done so earlier in the thread, you 5 ft retard.
Quote your post here.

[Herr Abubu]

Talking about 1500 years ago and saying ghegs and tosk it doesn’t have much sense you think.

Basically you agree that Albanian speaking individuals are the core of the population that affected all the neighbouring countries as the study says.Or better the one that didn't assimilate throe slavization, hellenisation and latinisation. And the highest levels of IBD sharing that are found in the albanian-speaking individuals are just their link to their assimilated common ancestors.
So they are ilirians epirots dardans ???

Who's talking about 1.5k years ago? I'm not simply referring to a singular event of Slavs migrating down to the Balkans, I'm talking about Balkan Medieval history.

The study doesn't say what you imply it says. Clearly our neighbouring populations were affected greatly by us, but clearly we were also affected by them. Tosks were affected by the Slavs genetically, they have many times more genetic markers that are completely Slavic in origin. That's as much as I can understand from it because you don't speak English very well and you don't seem very capable of speaking in a logical manner. I'll say it again, Albanians share a lot of IBD with Poles, Tosks have quite a lot of Slavic Y-DNA. I.e., we're not pure, and especially not Tosks.

[Laberia]

Who's talking about 1.5k years ago? I'm not simply referring to a singular event of Slavs migrating down to the Balkans, I'm talking about Balkan Medieval history.

The study doesn't say what you imply it says. Clearly our neighbouring populations were affected greatly by us, but clearly we were also affected by them. Tosks were affected by the Slavs genetically, they have many times more genetic markers that are completely Slavic in origin. That's as much as I can understand from it because you don't speak English very well and you don't seem very capable of speaking in a logical manner. I'll say it again, Albanians share a lot of IBD with Poles, Tosks have quite a lot of Slavic Y-DNA. I.e., we're not pure, and especially not Tosks.
Do not project your familiar problems on half Albania.

[kuqezi]

Looks like the movie Independence Day. Any scientific paper who prove this? Because there are many questions.

Insignificant, only in Opar, read here:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204408-Slavic-I2a1-in-southern-Albania&p=4269557&highlight=Muzaka#post4269557

We have discussed here about this maps of Hammond:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190348-EU-recognises-the-Cham-issue-accepts-Albanian-file&p=4173569&viewfull=1#post4173569
Let me quote here Hammond:
The problem i hope to deal with is how did the Albanians get from this remote part of Kurvelesh down to all parts of Greek peninsula and indeed the greek islands....
So according to Hammond this people arrived from Kurvelesh, not from Kelmendi. Well, a little bit strange this Hammond.
Anyway, at least someone with a theory. After many threads and 55 pages in this thread, Scholarios is without a theory.

From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.

[Skerdilaid]

Without reading the whole thread I'll just say a few things.

Tosks are not much more ethnically Slavic-derived than Ghegs since they plot (atleast on 23andme) with Ghegs and even show a tendency to plot on the southern end of the Albanian cluster. Even the southern most 'Slavs', the Macedonians and Bulgarians, plot north of Ghegs.

The Slavs that settled in southern Albania from around 600 AD were undifferentiated or 'generic' Slavs, not 'Bulgarians'. Bulgaria as a political entity later encorporated the Slavicized southern Albania. So southern Albania was no more 'Bulgarian' then the territory of modern Serbia was up to Belgrade under the Bulgars. That being said the population of southern Albania prior to Albanian migrations from the north would have been similar to the native-Slavic mixture in Macedonia, southern Epirus etc. I believe the historical record shows that Albanian migrants cleansed a good part of the area of its inhabitants, toponyms remained.

I don't think Slavic ydna is more then than 20 percent, maximimum 25, of southern Albanians, and I think that is VERY generous. If there is indeed that much or more Slavic blood in Tosks then they would also have to be mixed with other groups that would plot a lot more south than Ghegs on their own. Only that would explain where Tosks do plot, but I don't think thats the case given what is known about Bulgarians/Macedonians. It's just unrealistic to say that without Slavic admixture the Tosks would plot a lot more south than they do now. The people in southern Albania before the Slavs showed up were not from Crete or Cyprus.

Genetic ydna studies are likely to produce a good amount of error vs what they are trying to represent. It's like when they test a whole bunch of people from one village or clan that have the same origin. There has to be some ethnographic discernment in these studies for them to relect the real situation. Right now the only group competent enough to give an accurate assessment of the geneto-ethnic situation of the Albanians are the few mods over at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna.

The other simple explanation would be what I have suggested some pages on this thread, which is most likely what happened to my opinion going by the evidence we currently poses lingustically and genetically: the assimilated body of Slavs wasn't that large to begin with but only expanded later as Albanians. They simply were not that significant to alter their autosomal profile. I would like to see some of their Family Finder profiles though just to see where they stand in comparison to Ghegs because as you mentioned judging by their 23andme profiles they don't differ much from us, some are even identical to us.

[kuqezi]

Looks like the movie Independence Day. Any scientific paper who prove this? Because there are many questions.

Insignificant, only in Opar, read here:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204408-Slavic-I2a1-in-southern-Albania&p=4269557&highlight=Muzaka#post4269557

We have discussed here about this maps of Hammond:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190348-EU-recognises-the-Cham-issue-accepts-Albanian-file&p=4173569&viewfull=1#post4173569
Let me quote here Hammond:
The problem i hope to deal with is how did the Albanians get from this remote part of Kurvelesh down to all parts of Greek peninsula and indeed the greek islands....
So according to Hammond this people arrived from Kurvelesh, not from Kelmendi. Well, a little bit strange this Hammond.
Anyway, at least someone with a theory. After many threads and 55 pages in this thread, Scholarios is without a theory.

From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.
True, also there is evidence that supports the theory on Tosks migrating southwards when the Albanian dialects splitted into Tosk and Gheg

[Laberia]

From the amount of Slavic toponyms you would expect Tosks to plot more north than they do if the Slavs indeed have stayed there. Low Slavic autosomal input supports southern migration of Albanians and massacre/expulsion of Slavs.
This is genetic, a genetic theory based on few hundreds persons tested following a methodology that nobody here explain. We were discussing history.

[Kelmendasi]

The other simple explanation would be what I have suggested some pages on this thread, which is most likely what happened to my opinion going by the evidence we currently poses lingustically and genetically: the assimilated body of Slavs wasn't that large to begin with but only expanded later as Albanian. They simply were not that significant to alter their autosomal profile. I would like to see some of their Family Finder profiles though just to see where they stand in comparison to Ghegs because as you mentioned judging by their 23andme profiles they don't differ much from us, some are even identical to us.
Obviously bro, we are the same people as Tosks it's just that they differ in some dialectical and traditional/cultural aspects

[Laberia]

True, also there is evidence that supports the theory on Tosks migrating southwards when the Albanian dialects splitted into Tosk and Gheg

Bro, Mic Sokoli and Sokol Baci were 110% Albanians, not servs. Their names and surnames don`t make them servs.

[ilir]

Who's talking about 1.5k years ago? I'm not simply referring to a singular event of Slavs migrating down to the Balkans, I'm talking about Balkan Medieval history.

The study doesn't say what you imply it says. Clearly our neighbouring populations were affected greatly by us, but clearly we were also affected by them. Tosks were affected by the Slavs genetically, they have many times more genetic markers that are completely Slavic in origin. That's as much as I can understand from it because you don't speak English very well and you don't seem very capable of speaking in a logical manner. I'll say it again, Albanians share a lot of IBD with Poles, Tosks have quite a lot of Slavic Y-DNA. I.e., we're not pure, and especially not Tosks.

I was referring to the study

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.

I am not talking about pure or not, but you can’t ignore the highest levels of IBD sharing in Europe and the fact that that we affected all our neighbours. We are the first in the list of every neighboring country.
And in our list Poland is in the 13 place.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.s003
You admitted South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically,

So are albanians so far, according to the study also descendents of illirians dardans epirots??
I hope this time my english improved a little bit.

[Trojet]

This is genetic, a genetic theory based on few hundreds persons tested following a methodology that nobody here explain. We were discussing history.

Look dude...
What methodology are you talking about? We have to go with the two scientific studies we have regarding Tosks, which is 104 from Sarno et al 2015 (www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/full/ejhg2015138a.html) plus 121 from Ferri et al. 2010 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-010-0432-x) for a total of 225 Tosks. They pretty much tell the same story regarding Y-DNA distribution.

Or else, If you don't believe these numbers why don't you test yourself or recruit other Tosks to test so we don't have to rely on these studies and help our project at the same time?

[Kelmendasi]

Bro, Mic Sokoli and Sokol Baci were 110% Albanians, not servs. Their names and surnames don`t make them servs.
Obviously they were man I never said they weren't all I said is that Tosks diverged from Ghegs

[Laberia]

True, also there is evidence that supports the theory on Tosks migrating southwards when the Albanian dialects splitted into Tosk and Gheg

The characteristics of Tosk and Gheg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans..
When happened this split? This is hard to say. It`s not impossible that this split existed even when the migration of IE people happened.

[Ylla]

Obviously they were man I never said they weren't all I said is that Tosks diverged from Ghegs

Whats your haplogroup J-ZS241 can you explain? :)

[Dema]

:picard1:

[Laberia]

Obviously they were man I never said they weren't all I said is that Tosks diverged from Ghegs

No, the point is that this story of toponymus is overrated. Here in the forum, i doubt that someone have the slightest knowledge about the slavic toponymus in South Albania. The only thing people know is posting a map of an biased slav scholar.

[Kelmendasi]

The characteristics of Tosk and Gheg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans..
When happened this split? This is hard to say. It`s not impossible that this split existed even when the migration of IE people happened.
Hard to say when this split occurred tbh

[Kelmendasi]

Whats your haplogroup J-ZS241 can you explain? :)
It's the European branch of J1 that came into Europe either by Neolithic farmers, Indo-Europeans/Steppe peoples or Paleolithic/Mesolithic populations

[Herr Abubu]

I was referring to the study

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.

I am not talking about pure or not, but you can’t ignore the highest levels of IBD sharing in Europe and the fact that that we affected all our neighbours. We are the first in the list of every neighboring country.
And in our list Poland is in the 13 place.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.s003
You admitted South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically,

So are albanians so far, according to the study also descendents of illirians dardans epirots??
I hope this time my english improved a little bit.

Man, I have always been saying this, so what's your point? Yes, we did indeed greatly effect other people genetically, so much that we are a sort of glue that pieces several populations together. The point in this thread, however, is that Tosks are strongly Slavic-admixed, while Ghegs aren't. It's obvious going from Y-DNA, which even understates the amount of Slavic genetic influence in the south because South Slavs aren't exclusively I2a and R1a, these two are just markers that are obviously not native, just like H, which is without doubt Gypsy.

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.

[Kelmendasi]

Man, I have always been saying this, so what's your point? Yes, we did indeed greatly effect other people genetically, so much that we are a sort of glue that pieces several populations together. The point in this thread, however, is that Tosks are strongly Slavic-admixed, while Ghegs aren't. It's obvious going from Y-DNA, which even understates the amount of Slavic genetic influence in the south because South Slavs aren't exclusively I2a and R1a, these two are just markers that are obviously not native, just like H, which is without doubt Gypsy.

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.
We did mix with South Slavs especially Montenegrin's as we did exchange brides with them although obviously this mixing is minor

[Wrong]

Mainly the North-eastern Clans seem to be scoring the most J2b2Northwestern too, it seems. Hoti and Gruda(partly).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Overview_of_Albanian_tribes,_Franz_Seiner,_1918.jp g/1200px-Overview_of_Albanian_tribes,_Franz_Seiner,_1918.jp g

[Kelmendasi]

Northwestern too, it seems. Hoti and Gruda(partly).
Yh also Kastrati and Shkreli also a part of kelmendi seems to be J2b2 as well, although J2b2 seems to be mainly concentrated in the North-eastern Clans like Krasniqi and the brotherhoods of Mirdita which are located in North-eastern Albania

[Laberia]

Look dude...
What methodology are you talking about? We have to go with the two scientific studies we have regarding Tosks, which is 104 from Sarno et al 2015 (www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/full/ejhg2015138a.html) plus 121 from Ferri et al. 2010 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-010-0432-x) for a total of 225 Tosks. They pretty much tell the same story regarding Y-DNA distribution.

Or else, If you don't believe these numbers why don't you test yourself or recruit other Tosks to test so we don't have to rely on these studies and help our project at the same time?

Perderisa testi gjenetik eshte personal, duhet pak me teper informacion. Me metodologji une kuptoj disa gjera.
A eshte i mjaftueshem numri 225 per te percaktuar gjenetiken e gjithe Shqiperise se Jugut?
Keta studiues qe jane marre me testimin e ketyre njerezve, a kane ndonje njohur rreth Shqiperise e para e punes? Sepse c`do vend ka disa karakteristika qe une mendoj se duhen marre ne konsiderate.
Kush jane keta njerez qe jane testuar? Dime gje? A e perfaqeson kampioni i perzgjedhur ne menyre te sakte popullsine e jugut te Shqiperise? Sepse dikush mund te shkoje ne Cole te Vlores ku jetojne jevgjit te marri nja 20 kampione atje, 10 te tjera mund ti marri ne gjithe qytetin e Vlores dhe te nxjerri nje rezultat final per gjithe qytetin e Vlores.
Keta njerez qe jane testuar, ka raste kur ndermhet ketyre personave kane lidhje gjaku.
Ju qe jeni nje ekspet ne kete fushe mund te shtoni edhe nje shume pyetje te tjera. Mbase ndonje pyetje e imja nuk eshte e sakte, por me keto dhe te tjera une kuptoj, metodologji.
Kjo u puna e testimit tim u be legjende. Ketu nuk po flasim per mua si person, por per nje pjese te konsiderueshme te popullsise shqiptare.
And since we are talking about science, because genetic is a science, i want your personal opinion and the opinion of all the others here about this scientist of XIX century:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Kiepert
Please don`t forget to give an opinion about this scientist.


EDIT.
I can recruit other Tosk, but nobody will take seriously this my initiative.

[ilir]

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.

not exactly but maybe is due to my non proper english.

This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one.

Thnx for your time

[Herr Abubu]

not exactly but maybe is due to my non proper english.

This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one.

Thnx for your time

No, it's not your English, but simply stupidity. Yes, Albanians descend, on the scale of 1.5k or more years, from a small population. What's your point?

[ilir]

No, it's not your English, but simply stupidity. Yes, Albanians descend, on the scale of 1.5k or more years, from a small population. What's your point?

Who lived more than 1500 years in this area and are we their descendents ??

[Skerdilaid]

Djema, tema eshte hapur per CTS10228 dhe nen-degat saja si Z17855, Y4460 'Din S', dhe S17250 'Din N' qe gjenden ne Ballkan, e sidomos nen Toske. Qe nuk e kuptoni se cka nenkuptojne kto nomenklatura, ju kisha lute qe mos t'i beni pompim me kesaj teme.

[catgeorge]

Whaat you are not R1b afterall, are you really I2a1???

Yes I am R1b. So?

Doesnt take away the fact I2 is an indigenous lineage pre Neolithic expansion. North and North Western Balkans probably mixed with Scythians that carried R1a and over a couple of millenia developed splits I2a1 and I2a2.

[Herr Abubu]

Who lived more than 1500 years in this area and are we their descendents ??

This is the last time I reply to your stupid shit. It doesn't say anything about where this population came from and who they were. If you think that I am somehow against the Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians, then it's an assumption you make because of your incapability of logical reasoning. I am simply stating the clear fact that Tosks have a large amount of Slavic blood.

[ilir]

If you think that I am somehow against the Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians, then it's an assumption you make because of your incapability of logical reasoning.
So you never said that, you are not against ??
Thnx in advance for your patience.

[Voskos]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg

17percent I + 13 percent R1a in Tiranovo

[Ujku]

This is the last time I reply to your stupid shit. It doesn't say anything about where this population came from and who they were. If you think that I am somehow against the Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians, then it's an assumption you make because of your incapability of logical reasoning. I am simply stating the clear fact that Tosks have a large amount of Slavic blood.

I don't know how genetics work, so I'm asking and not implying anything. Shouldn't we look more like the other Slavs if we had that much of a percentage Slavic genes??

[cosmoo]

You're tying haplos to identities yourself. I2a was found among Neolithic farmers only so far.
Actually it (more specifically I2a1b which is being discussed here) was found among northern hunter-gatherers. Loschbour from Luxembourg, Motala samples from Sweden, Pitted Ware samples from Gotland, Berry-au-Bac from France, that recent Estonian sample, etc.
The last haplogroup in Europe (together with northern I2a1a) to abandon hunting and gathering.
Native European haplo par excellence.

[Wrong]

Actually it (more specifically I2a1b which is being discussed here) was found among northern hunter-gatherers. Loschbour from Luxembourg, Motala samples from Sweden, Pitted Ware samples from Gotland, Berry-au-Bac from France, that recent Estonian sample, etc.
The last haplogroup in Europe (together with northern I2a1a) to abandon hunting and gathering.
Native European haplo par excellence.Yes. That's what's been shown so far.

[Herr Abubu]

I don't know how genetics work, so I'm asking and not implying anything. Shouldn't we look more like the other Slavs if we had that much of a percentage Slavic genes??

It doesn't work like that.

[Dema]

Yes I am R1b. So?

Doesnt take away the fact I2 is an indigenous lineage pre Neolithic expansion. North and North Western Balkans probably mixed with Scythians that carried R1a and over a couple of millenia developed splits I2a1 and I2a2.

R1b BY611?

As for I2, no one is saying that there wasn't once it time some I2 here but that happens not to be I2a1b CTS 10228 which is almost exclusive in Balkan I2a1.
I2a1b CTS 10228 arrived in Balkan as Slavs in 6th and 7th centuries.

[Charles Bronson]

I never bothered learning about other y-dna clades other than my own but I2a1 seems very interesting regarding the balkans. I wonder why it's more common with balkan slavs than with other slavs. Could be the same reason as to why E-v13 is more common with albanians. They fucked like rabbits and had 10+ kids per family since the middle ages. What else are you gonna do in the mountans other than fuck and eat.







http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1



Dude you are a handsome man.

[catgeorge]

R1b BY611?

As for I2, no one is saying that there wasn't once it time some I2 here but that happens not to be I2a1b CTS 10228 which is almost exclusive in Balkan I2a1.
I2a1b CTS 10228 arrived in Balkan as Slavs in 6th and 7th centuries.

I2a1b = Daddy indigenous to Europe - mummy most likely R1a/G or J or a fusion and combination of all I understand we need to keep it simple here.

[Ujku]

It doesn't work like that.

Can you explain me what this slavic gene means for us?? If it doesn't affect our appearance , then what does it do??

[Wrong]

I2a1b = Daddy indigenous to Europe - mummy most likely R1a/G or J or a fusion and combination of all I understand we need to keep it simple here.
Europe since the Meso/Neolithic is a result of R1, J and E males raping/taking U-women(the wives of I carriers)

Y-dna carriers can't be "mummy", you are misinformed.

[Kelmendasi]

Can you explain me what this slavic gene means for us?? If it doesn't affect our appearance , then what does it do??
Ydna doesn't play a role in appearance in fact it doesn't even play are role in autosomal results

[Herr Abubu]

Can you explain me what this slavic gene means for us?? If it doesn't affect our appearance , then what does it do??

Y-DNA is something you inherit no matter what from your father. If your father was from China with a typical Chinese Y-DNA marker 2k years ago, you'd still have it. It's useful for looking at migrations of populations with different Y-DNA distributions, but not at all useful on an individual basis or between populations with similar Y-DNA distributions. I2a and R1a are undoubtedly not native to the Balkans before the Slavic migrations, we know that anyone who has either of those haplogroups in the Balkans has paternally Slavic ancestry if you look far back enough. We can't tell what affects this has had on appearance after hundreds, maybe more than a thousand, years of mixing.

[Wrong]

R1b BY611?

As for I2, no one is saying that there wasn't once it time some I2 here but that happens not to be I2a1b CTS 10228 which is almost exclusive in Balkan I2a1.
I2a1b CTS 10228 arrived in Balkan as Slavs in 6th and 7th centuries.Doubtful he tested, with such little knowledge.

[Ujku]

Y-DNA is something you inherit no matter what from your father. If your father was from China with a typical Chinese Y-DNA marker 2k years ago, you'd still have it. It's useful for looking at migrations of populations with different Y-DNA distributions, but not at all useful on an individual basis or between populations with similar Y-DNA distributions. I2a and R1a are undoubtedly not native to the Balkans before the Slavic migrations, we know that anyone who has either of those haplogroups in the Balkans has paternally Slavic ancestry if you look far back enough. We can't tell what affects this has had on appearance after hundreds, maybe more than a thousand, years of mixing.

How much MENA ancestry tosk Albanians score??

[Kelmendasi]

How much MENA ancestry tosk Albanians score??
Probably 0% like us Ghegs

[Kelmendasi]

Couldn't find any sources though on Tosk autosomal results

[Drawing-slim]

Autosomally i would guess tosks are more acient balkans than us ghegs in general.

[Kelmendasi]

Autosomally i would guess tosks are more acient balkans than us ghegs in general.
How?

[cosmoo]

Europe since the Meso/Neolithic is a result of R1, J and E males raping/taking U-women(the wives of I carriers)

Y-dna carriers can't be "mummy", you are misinformed.

MtDNA U is comparatively low in Europe compared to immigrant haplogroups, like H.
I men decreased in numbers more because they couldn't afford large population size with their lifestyle, plus they probably died from animal-transmitted diseases IE and Neolithic farmers brought, much like Amerindians when Europeans came.
Don't start discussion on superiority, for as far as we know, aboriginal Europeans win that title in every regard. It's just that quantity beats quality very often.

[Ujku]

Probably 0% like us Ghegs

Well , that's what counts.

[Wrong]

MtDNA U is comparatively low in Europe compared to immigrant haplogroups, like H.
I men decreased in numbers more because they couldn't afford large population size with their lifestyle, plus they probably died from animal-transmitted diseases IE and Neolithic farmers brought, much like Amerindians when Europeans came.
Don't start discussion on superiority, for as far as we know, aboriginal Europeans win that title in every regard. It's just that quantity beats quality very often.
R-carriers so far have proven to be the most successful historically, especially the Indo-Europeans no doubt.

[Drawing-slim]

How?
Because tosks are not tribal and never went to far way from their village to get a wife while ghegs always had to ship in women from across region and beyond borders too. Like skenderbeg's mother for example. Even today, amongst ghegs there are more "foreign" wives in comparison to tosks.

[cosmoo]

R-carriers so far have proven to be the most successful historically, especially the Indo-Europeans no doubt.

As I've already said, taking sparsely-populated area by sheer numerosity and with help of diseases is certainly not very impressive.

[Kelmendasi]

Because tosks are not tribal and never went to far way from their village to get a wife while ghegs always had to ship in women from across region and beyond borders too. Like skenderbeg's mother for example. Even today, amongst ghegs there are more "foreign" wives in comparison to tosks.
True but Ghegs usually got wives from different Albanian clans or villages. Also Ghegs are considered more homogenous than Tosks but I think that we are equally as homogenous as each other but Ghegs for a fact were isolated more

[Wrong]

Don't start discussion on superiority, for as far as we know, aboriginal Europeans win that title in every regard. It's just that quantity beats quality very often.That can be applied to the I2a1b-"Dins" arriving in scores to the Balkans.

I'm far from a haplogroup supremacist, the other thread was simply trollish about J2b2. Not sure how some people take obvious troll threads so seriously.

[Herr Abubu]

How much MENA ancestry tosk Albanians score??

None or insignificant amounts.

[cosmoo]

That can be applied to the I2a1b-"Dins" arriving in scores to the Balkans.

I'm far from a haplogroup supremacist, the other thread was simply trollish about J2b2. Not sure how some people take obvious troll threads so seriously.

I2a1b couldn't be said to have arrived "in scores" compared to native Balkanites.
I'm not haplo-nationalist either, just pointing out to some logical fallacies used to spread idea of particular one's "superiority".

[Wrong]

I2a1b couldn't be said to have arrived "in scores" compared to native Balkanites.
I'm not haplo-nationalist either, just pointing out to some logical fallacies used to spread idea of particular one's "superiority".The Slavs were numerous enough in foraging population when they migrated to cause a significant impact and change in demographics, I2a1b-din and R1a combined.

The Roman northern military frontiers have long since been breached by Hunic and Avar raids. Avars brought numerous of Slavs with them taking advantage of this.

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/BalkanSlavs.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_p45f_p1oLmk/TBZ-HbG3z7I/AAAAAAAABlI/Mz078R05xvo/s1600/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.JPG

[Scholarios]

We don`t know really how many individual cases of this 104 Tosk Albanians were with this kind of problematic I2a-etc. I have asked many times this, but nobody can give me an answer. I don`t know the reason.

Because you seem to have the winning combination of delusional coping mechanism + poor reading and cognitive comprehension, so it is pointless to explain to you the concept of "sample". Can you please give a reason why it is impossible that an Albanian may not have some Slavonic component? Is the power of your national myth so potent you are incapable of accepting evidence even slightly to the contrary? Or are you some kind of imbecile who believes some kind of genetic alchemy- Slavic dna and Albanian are somehow repellent to one another? Western-backed Stooge.


Because tosks are not tribal and never went to far way from their village to get a wife while ghegs always had to ship in women from across region and beyond borders too. Like skenderbeg's mother for example. Even today, amongst ghegs there are more "foreign" wives in comparison to tosks.

That is a good point, but I think many Tosks were more "cosmopolitan" and therefore intermarried with Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians more often. At least with Tsams.



Epic thread,lol
It only means that the rest of balkans & europe expects albanians to be so pure that finding 10 indivdual cases of I2a feels like a tragic news to them and they feel responsible to hold us accountable for it. Which i can understand;)

To be honest, look at Greeks, they are the same. The unbelievable stubborn stupidity of Catgeorge for instance. We must be the same people.

[Laberia]

The Slavs were numerous enough in foraging population when they migrated to cause a significant impact and change in demographics, I2a1b-din and R1a combined.

The Roman northern military frontiers have long since been breached by Hunic and Avar raids. Avars brought numerous of Slavs with them taking advantage of this.

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/BalkanSlavs.jpg


Do you understand that this map is totally an idiot map? In VII-VIII century North Albania and Kosova servi?
Practically nothing was known about the Serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...
quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).

[Scholarios]

Do you understand that this map is totally an idiot map? In VII-VIII century North Albania and Kosova servi?
Practically nothing was known about the Serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...
quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).

Begone, witless worm , and hear the truth that shall set you free at last:


It was at this point, in the 610s or 620s, that the Emperor of the day (according to a detailed but somewhat confused account by a later Emperor-cum-historian, Constantine Porphyrogenitus) invited the Croats to come down from central Europe and deal with the Avar threat. [6] This they did, bringing with them their neighbours, the Serbs. Both populations then settled in the territories abandoned by the Avars: the Croats in modern Croatia and western Bosnia, and the Serbs in the Rascia area on the north-western side of Kosovo, and in the region of modern Montenegro. In some of these areas they supervened on an already existing Slav population, which, as a result, must gradually have taken on a 'Croat' or 'Serb' identity. The Serbs did not have anything like a state at this stage, but they developed several small tribal territories, each called a zupa and ruled by a tribal chief known as the zupan. [7]

By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]

What had happened to the local populations of the western and central Balkans during and after the Slav invasions? Something is known about the urban inhabitants, but much less about the people in the countryside. Despite the apocalyptic tone of early Byzantine writers, who give the impression that all civilization came to an end here in about 600, there is good evidence that the main cities survived (or were revived), just as they had done after earlier sackings. Refugees from central Balkan towns such as Nis and Sofia fled to the safety of Salonica at first, but many must have gone back home later. [10] The main towns on the Dalmatian and northern Albanian coastline, too, retained their Latin-speaking populations and stayed under Byzantine rule. (For naval and commercial reasons, Durres was the most important Byzantine possession on the entire Adriatic coast of the Balkans.) [11] But outside the major cities there are signs of decline and contraction; typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existenc


Chapter 2 in Noel Malcolm's Kosovo, a short history (Macmilan, London, 1998, p. 22-40)

[Ujku]

That is a good point, but I think many Tosks were more "cosmopolitan" and therefore intermarried with Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians more often. At least with Tsams.



.

Not really , Chams married other chams .. My grandpa a cham has the typical Albanian ( more gheg) look (tall , dinaric nose , slim ) like most chams i've met in my life.
My Lab grandfather was Isa Boletinis look alike .
This whole Tosk Albanians look differently than Ghegs is total bullshit..
Also we didn't marry with Greeks of south Albania (which were mainly Hellenised Vlachs ) although we lived together we only married other Albanians same goes for ghegs.

[Scholarios]

Not really , Chams married other chams .. My grandpa a cham has the typical Albanian ( more gheg) look (tall , dinaric nose , slim ) like most chams i've met in my life.
My Lab grandfather was Isa Boletinis look alike .
This whole Tosk Albanians look differently than Ghegs is total bullshit..
Also we didn't marry with Greeks of south Albania (which were mainly Hellenised Vlachs ) although we lived together we only married other Albanians same goes for ghegs.

This is not about looks at all, so there is no reason to go there. I don't know what your oral tradition is about this, but i respect it, even if I am skeptical. I don't have time to go into it deeply, but I did recall enough to retrieve this quote about Northwest Greece and South Albania:


Hellenizing (male) Vlachs, for example, tended to marry hellenized (female) Vlachs or poor Greekbrides, thus establishing the domestic language as Greek. Muslim Albanians might take Greek wives,
maintaining some features of a bicultural household at least in the first generation. Greek men might inprinciple marry only other Orthodox. Contemporary observers insist that linguistically distinct groups, while
distinguished on the plane of language or occupation, might also share much in style of life: "The Greek,Slav, Roumanian, Albanian of the Mountains resemble one another more than they do their compatriots of the plains" (Ancel 1926:135, quoted in Recatas 1934:2). Likewise, the Greek tenant farmer who was not a merchant (and not, according to Hobhouse, "dressed as a European" [1971:28]) resembled his Bulgar counterparts in his poverty and subjection to the Turk. Kitroeff (1993:13) cites Margaritis Dhimitsas's four volume Ancient Geography of Macedonia (1874): "The Slavo-Bulgarians stand on the bottom rung of intellectual development, and are almost exclusively engaged in agriculture and cattle-raising.... Among
[the Slavs] the Serbs are noted for their care over intellectual and political development and the Montenegrins for their heroism."



and that:



Observers writing during the Ottoman period recognized something like a linguisticallycoded caste structure with hereditary specializations. "The merchant," one source reported, "is a 'Greek', the intellectual a 'Serb', ... the shepherd a 'Vlach', the laborer a 'Bulgar' " (Recatas 1934:14).13 The blacksmiths and music-makers (for example, those who lived outside the Aromanian town of Metsovo) were by definition Gypsies.14 Note that it is the merchant who is a Greek and not the Greek who is, inevitably, a merchant. While linguistic or ethnic categories constituted the indices of a division of labor, individuals might migrate into these categories from diverse points of origin. For their own reproduction, linguistic and regional differences require some degree of in-marriage, but in northwest Greece there was also a good deal of systematic out-marriage (systematic in the sense that certain patterns of status migration were maintained).15


Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999) (file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/BORDERZRESEARCH-DemarcationZofZtheZborder.pdf)

And we all know that Muslim(Albanian, Turkish, or Greek) males could and did intermarry with whoever they pleased, as a general rule- in Epirus as elsewhere.

[catgeorge]

I2a1b couldn't be said to have arrived "in scores" compared to native Balkanites.
I'm not haplo-nationalist either, just pointing out to some logical fallacies used to spread idea of particular one's "superiority".

I2a1b is very small - Balkan slavs are mostly slavicised indigenous Balkanites. It was a huge push westwards on Scythians, Ostrogoths and Alans by Huns. We are talking about 100 AD - all these communities intermingled....indigenous I2, Scythians , Ostrogoths , Alans, Cumans and Avars over half a millenia of morphing before their migration southwards in 6th century AD.. all these communities developed their own tribes eventually. As an example look at America and its morph...they all spoke a loose Germanic language but English became the language.. this is not so much different... they are slavicised like americans are angliczed

Take Bulgrians for example that did not speak Slavic when they first arrived to the Balkans. R1a and R1b is more Asiatic than I and J.

[Scholarios]

I2a1b is very small - Balkan slavs are mostly slavicised indigenous Balkanites. It was a huge push westwards on Scythians, Ostrogoths and Alans by Huns. We are talking about 100 AD - all these communities intermingled....indigenous I2, Scythians , Ostrogoths , Alans, Cumans and Avars over half a millenia of morphing before their migration southwards in 6th century AD.. all these communities developed their own tribes eventually. As an example look at America and its morph...they all spoke a loose Germanic language but English became the language.. this is not so much different... they are slavicised like americans are angliczed

Take Bulgrians for example that did not speak Slavic when they first arrived to the Balkans. R1a and R1b is more Asiatic than I and J.


That is some pretty slick attempt at turning a hellenized-bulgar into a slavified-greek, and you aint fooling anyone, Asen.

[catgeorge]

That is some pretty slick attempt at turning a hellenized-bulgar into a slavified-greek, and you aint fooling anyone, Asen.

Did you just reply to me?

I wonder why - have I hurt your feelings have I?.... here have a cookie. Now now. :patpat:

:laugh:

[Queen B]

:clap::clap: Sorcelow :clap::clap:

With this thread you managed, not only the common Greeks vs Albanians, but also Greeks vs Greeks and Albanians vs Albanians :laugh:

[Laberia]

Begone, witless worm , and hear the truth that shall set you free at last:



Chapter 2 in Noel Malcolm's Kosovo, a short history (Macmilan, London, 1998, p. 22-40)
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1000_Origins-of-Nations/
Where are the servs among the nations? I don't see.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1332_Making-the-Passage/index.html
Here you have the ethnic composition of Kingdom of servia.
All this are primary sources. OK?

[Laberia]

This is not about looks at all, so there is no reason to go there. I don't know what your oral tradition is about this, but i respect it, even if I am skeptical. I don't have time to go into it deeply, but I did recall enough to retrieve this quote about Northwest Greece and South Albania:



and that:



Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999) (file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/BORDERZRESEARCH-DemarcationZofZtheZborder.pdf)

And we all know that Muslim(Albanian, Turkish, or Greek) males could and did intermarry with whoever they pleased, as a general rule- in Epirus as elsewhere.

To prove that your post is the biggest BS, i will ask you to quote the name of only one single serv intellectual, in the period described by this author.

[Scholarios]

To prove that your post is the biggest BS, i will ask you to quote the name of only one single serv intellectual, in the period described by this author.

lol toxic rat, did a different opinion from your national myth dismay ya? youre a big boy, you can handle that someone somewhere said something positive about a serb and didn't find the need to even mention an albanian. It isn't the end of the world. Oh, and mention of Serbs predates mention of Albanians, Arvanites, Arnauts, Arvanon, Arbereshe, Raban, Laban, etc. and so on...They are mentioned in Constantine's Administrisio di imperio, which I'd post, but you'll just ignore. You can just call them Slavs, if you prefer. Slavs were in Kosovo and North Albania in the 7th Century. Those Slavs, if they weren't already, would become Serbs. (and presumably, some of em would be come Albanians)

I don't see how a fragment of a source from the 11th century is a primary source for the 7th century. Do you understand what primary means? It means contermpoary, and we have very very few of them.

[Herr Abubu]

"This one disputed text from the 11th century doesn't mention Serbs at all, therefore Serbs didn't exist during the 11th century."

The Serb and Greek e-historians who claim that Albanians didn't exist until the first documentation of Albanians are just one side of the coin of Balkan stupidity. It is never about a fair-minded dialectic towards truth, it's nothing but a manifestation of id through pseudo-intellectual shitflinging.

[catgeorge]

"This one disputed text from the 11th century doesn't mention Serbs at all, therefore Serbs didn't exist during the 11th century."

The Serb and Greek e-historians who claim that Albanians didn't exist until the first documentation of Albanians are just one side of the coin of Balkan stupidity. It is never about a fair-minded dialectic towards truth, it's nothing but a manifestation of id through pseudo-intellectual shitflinging.

I doubt it - Albanians existed as people most likely but certainly not under Albanians but something else.

Welcome to the world of I 20,000 years ago in Gravvetian culture of upper paleolithic

Ancestor: IJ
Descendants: I*, I1, I2
Mutations: L41, M170, M258, P19, P38, P212, U179



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Europe20000ya.png

Cro Magnon expansion of 40,000 years ago

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Cro-Magnon_migration.gif

I bet my last penny Dorians were I + R1b

[Laberia]

lol toxic rat, did a different opinion from your national myth dismay ya? youre a big boy, you can handle that someone somewhere said something positive about a serb and didn't find the need to even mention an albanian. It isn't the end of the world. Oh, and mention of Serbs predates mention of Albanians, Arvanites, Arnauts, Arvanon, Arbereshe, Raban, Laban, etc. and so on...They are mentioned in Constantine's Administrisio di imperio, which I'd post, but you'll just ignore. You can just call them Slavs, if you prefer. Slavs were in Kosovo and North Albania in the 7th Century. Those Slavs, if they weren't already, would become Serbs. (and presumably, some of em would be come Albanians)

I don't see how a fragment of a source from the 11th century is a primary source for the 7th century. Do you understand what primary means? It means contermpoary, and we have very very few of them.

Sorry, but my question has nothing to do with your answer:

To prove that your post is the biggest BS, i will ask you to quote the name of only one single serv intellectual, in the period described by this author.

[Scholarios]

Sorry, but my question has nothing to do with your answer:

troll game is weak, laberia. step it up. Im not even provoked.

[Laberia]

troll game is weak, laberia. step it up. Im not even provoked.

There is nothing troll game. Was you who posted this:

Observers writing during the Ottoman period recognized something like a linguisticallycoded caste structure with hereditary specializations. "The merchant," one source reported, "is a 'Greek', the intellectual a 'Serb', ... the shepherd a 'Vlach', the laborer a 'Bulgar' " (Recatas 1934:14).
My question was and is simple. Can you tell me a serv intellectual from the period described by this author?
What is troll game here?

[kuqezi]

Man, I have always been saying this, so what's your point? Yes, we did indeed greatly effect other people genetically, so much that we are a sort of glue that pieces several populations together. The point in this thread, however, is that Tosks are strongly Slavic-admixed, while Ghegs aren't. It's obvious going from Y-DNA, which even understates the amount of Slavic genetic influence in the south because South Slavs aren't exclusively I2a and R1a, these two are just markers that are obviously not native, just like H, which is without doubt Gypsy.

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.

I thought my first post would make it clear that this is not the case. All indications are that the Slav element in southern Albania is pretty much exclusively derived from the first waves of undifferentiated Slavs that swept the Balkans. Therefore the Slavic element belongs to the typically Slavic ydna markers and the proportions of Slav blood should be looked at from that perspective, as would be the case in Bulgaria or with Macedonians for example. The Bulgarian and Serb empires only held a few forts there for a certian amount of time, no indications that they settled the area with Slav-mixed EV13s and R1bs from Bulgaria and Serbia.

[Scholarios]

There is nothing troll game. Was you who posted this:

My question was and is simple. Can you tell me a serv intellectual from the period described by this author?
What is troll game here?

I am sorry, I just assumed that you were trolling, not that you were an actual moron. My apologies. Is it possible that something here can be posted and you actually understand it for once?

Can your pea-sized brain do anything except see the passage as a competition with Serbs? The point is not that Serbs were *actually* intellectuals, but that the in the Balkan cultural taxonomy, the Serb was an intellectual (i.e. all intellectuals were Serbs) all merchants were Greeks, all shepherds were Vlachs, etc. This is of course not my original assertion, but the one made in the cited peer-reviewed article by an American historian, so you shall have to take it up with her, my dear Mardaite.

[Lek]

lol toxic rat, did a different opinion from your national myth dismay ya? youre a big boy, you can handle that someone somewhere said something positive about a serb and didn't find the need to even mention an albanian. It isn't the end of the world. Oh, and mention of Serbs predates mention of Albanians, Arvanites, Arnauts, Arvanon, Arbereshe, Raban, Laban, etc. and so on...They are mentioned in Constantine's Administrisio di imperio, which I'd post, but you'll just ignore. You can just call them Slavs, if you prefer. Slavs were in Kosovo and North Albania in the 7th Century. Those Slavs, if they weren't already, would become Serbs. (and presumably, some of em would be come Albanians)

I don't see how a fragment of a source from the 11th century is a primary source for the 7th century. Do you understand what primary means? It means contermpoary, and we have very very few of them.

Maybe the first wave of Slavs but certainly not the proto Serbs and Proto Croats.

[Scholarios]

Maybe the first wave of Slavs but certainly not the proto Serbs and Proto Croats.

There's no difference between those two things as far as I can tell. Proto-Slavs became Serbs and Croats.

[Laberia]

I am sorry, I just assumed that you were trolling, not that you were an actual moron. My apologies. Is it possible that something here can be posted and you actually understand it for once?

Can your pea-sized brain do anything except see the passage as a competition with Serbs? The point is not that Serbs were *actually* intellectuals, but that the in the Balkan cultural taxonomy, the Serb was an intellectual (i.e. all intellectuals were Serbs) all merchants were Greeks, all shepherds were Vlachs, etc. This is of course not my original assertion, but the one made in the cited peer-reviewed article by an American historian, so you shall have to take it up with her, my dear Mardaite.

So, in your Balcan Taxonomy, servs were intellectuals but you can't tell me a serv intellectual. I like when you play with your tongue. Let me help you with the example of an great serv intellectual:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sali_Aga

[Laberia]

I am sorry, I just assumed that you were trolling, not that you were an actual moron. My apologies. Is it possible that something here can be posted and you actually understand it for once?

Can your pea-sized brain do anything except see the passage as a competition with Serbs? The point is not that Serbs were *actually* intellectuals, but that the in the Balkan cultural taxonomy, the Serb was an intellectual (i.e. all intellectuals were Serbs) all merchants were Greeks, all shepherds were Vlachs, etc. This is of course not my original assertion, but the one made in the cited peer-reviewed article by an American historian, so you shall have to take it up with her, my dear Mardaite.

EDIT.
I don't see the passage as a competition with servs. I consider this an classic example of what i have always supported here. You are a troll. The only thing that you are able to do is searching in internet and without reading posting here. This is what i call davai style. When people start to rise logic questions, you behave as a schizophrenic.
About the author, internet is full with every kind of "authors". Can you tell us, this idea of serv intellectual, is a personal impression of this author or he have read it somewhere?

[Laberia]

lol toxic rat, did a different opinion from your national myth dismay ya? youre a big boy, you can handle that someone somewhere said something positive about a serb and didn't find the need to even mention an albanian. It isn't the end of the world. Oh, and mention of Serbs predates mention of Albanians, Arvanites, Arnauts, Arvanon, Arbereshe, Raban, Laban, etc. and so on...They are mentioned in Constantine's Administrisio di imperio, which I'd post, but you'll just ignore. You can just call them Slavs, if you prefer. Slavs were in Kosovo and North Albania in the 7th Century. Those Slavs, if they weren't already, would become Serbs. (and presumably, some of em would be come Albanians)

I don't see how a fragment of a source from the 11th century is a primary source for the 7th century. Do you understand what primary means? It means contermpoary, and we have very very few of them.
Administrando d'Impero is not the only sources. There are sources even older then Administrando where Albanians are mentioned:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191059-Origin-of-Albanians&p=3968832&viewfull=1#post3968832
It's your Hammond.
In the text of 11 century are mentioned all the know nations, not servs.

[Scholarios]

imbecilic twat- why you wasting my time with all this unrelated tangent shit? this is about I2b and slav invasions concerning albania and north greece, not some splitting hairs about what is a Serb. And geezus christ, how much free time you have to just triple post? I didn't even read 2/3 of them. Go make a history club with CatGeorge, Hellenas, and Raine.

[Laberia]

troll game is weak, laberia.

Let see who is troll here.
First, using and abusing with this poor retard Sorcelow you started this thread: Slavic I2a1 in southern Albania
At the beggining was another member who noticed that your initiative was stupid:

:cry2

Here we talk about I2a1b Dinaric, not I2a1, which evolved long time ago.
So, mods, change this thread name to ''Slavic I2a1b in southern Albania''.


So, you are suggesting that the OP is an idiot who don't know a shit of what he is trying to discuss here, right?

He simply don't know which term to use, like 90% people which discuss about genetics.
Later, to prove your theory you posted this study:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/full/ejhg2015138a.html
Ghegs get around 6% I2+r1a combined.
Tosks about 23%
Arbereshe about 30%
(I do not count I1- brought by Normans, Goths, Catalans, etc)
You can interpret that any way your little heart desires.
But you failed to tell us according to this study how percent of this 104 Tosk Albanians were I2a1b. It`s really funny.
So, your attempt to enter into a genetic disussion, failed miserably.
What remained was the historical discussion.
Here, you are an expert troll.
You have repeatedly ignored my invitation to present your theory, when it relates to the Albanians, and specifically in regards to Tosk Albanians. It`s you "tactic", if we can call in this way. And here is difficult to beat you, Mark Twain explain very well the reason:
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”


Scholarios, i invite you to stop following the example of davai, stop digging in the garbage.
First of all you have to tell what is your theory. Internet is full with every kind of information and disinformation. You have to decide what is your opinion. I think this is the right way to discuss and i am ready. The other way, i am sorry but i can`t follow you. You have here this bubu and you can exchange your liquids together.
Regards.

But it`s time to give an end to your stupidity. You have an theory Scholarios and this your "theory" can be reconstructed reading your posts in this thread:

I am just explaining the mystery of the "birds and the bees".
But yes, South Albania and Northwest Greece was a place of all sorts of mixings.
The bird start to sing. Nice.

sources given, mon ami. ad nauseum in fact. Now please, answer the question dear- why so much Slavic i2a1b in South Albania? Are the books about Slavic sea in South Albania lying as conspiracy of the Great SOROS? I am confused. Please don't give up- I'd like to see how bad your English gets as you try to formulate your next poor excuse for trolling.
Thanks IN ADVANCE.

As regards Labs, that's not my theory , but that of a wise old Kurveleshiote. As far as all Tosks being newcomers, well that is more or less mainstream history, as elaborated previously. (including Jochalas).
When you have elaborated this fact? I have explained very well that Albanians are native in Epir, i.e. South Albania with this post:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190348-EU-recognises-the-Cham-issue-accepts-Albanian-file&p=4173569&viewfull=1#post4173569
Your answer, or as you call it as elaborated previously, was this:

Just sit back and enjoy the salty tears of Chams.
Very elaborate answer, typical for a greek nationalist.Twain was right.

That is consistent with the theory of Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups.


Yep, but Tosks in Greece in late middle ages, not early. Even at the end of 13th Century, they probably didn't expand beyond Berat. Sure, they started expanding in Albania since the early Middle ages tho.
Well done. I think we can reconstruct you theory now. But we want a map first to explain to the rest of the people your theory:
This is a map of the dialects of Albanian language:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj82/bledikorcari/imagecgi.jpg
The theory of Scholarios is that all Tosks being newcomers from North. A theory, product of greek chauvinism in order to justify the occupation of part of Epir, i.e. South Albania, and intentions of Greece to occupy the other half. It`s called, Megaliidea.
This newcomers from the North, found Slavic sea in Epir, i.e. South Albania. This newcomers(Tosk), Even at the end of 13th Century, they probably didn't expand beyond Berat.
If you look at the Dialectological map of Albania, following the theory of Scholarios, this newcomers were arrived at the number 6 in the map. Berat is a little bit in the left of number 6. The rest, continue to be a Slavic sea,number 7, Labs and number 8 Chams, always according to the theory of Scholarios, Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups. When? He don`t tell us, but we have to assume, following Scholarios, at least in the XIV century or latter.
I invite you to notice the island of Corfu at the bottom of the map, because is very important.
This was the reconstruction of the theory of Scholarios.
What is the truth. Ok. let`s quote a greek author, Kostas Giakoumis:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233673710_Fourteenth-century_Albanian_migration_and_the_%27relative_aut ochthony%27_of_the_Albanians_in_Epeiros_The_case_o f_Gjirokaster
I don`t share his point of view, but opinions are one things and facts and documents another thing. I am quoting this greek scholar:


The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning
of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources:
the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent
facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;(20) and the second
is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a
certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of
the famous Shpata family.(21) Furthermore, I suggest that names that
appear in two acts of the Angevins of Naples dated 1304 (22) using the
forms, Albos, Spatos, Catarucos, Bischesini, Aranitos, Lecenis,
Turbaceos, Marchaseos, Scuras, Zeneuias, Bucceseos, Logoresc and
Mateseos are either well-known, less-known or totally unknown names
of Albanian clan leaders at that time.



(20.) G. Tafel - G. Tomas (1856), 122.
(21). N. Bees - E. Seferli, 'Unedierte Schriftstiicke aus der Kanzlei des Johannes
Apokaukos', BN] 21 (1974), doc. 62. For views on this name as being ancestral to
the name 'Shpata', see P. Xhufi (1994), 47 and note 132.
(22). L. Thalloczy - K. Jirecek - M. Sufflay (1913), 166a, doc. 563 and 167-168,
doc. 569.

According to Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus
Ἤπειρος, Ḗpeiros (Doric: Ἄπειρος, Ápeiros), meaning "mainland" or terra firma.[3] It is thought to come from an Indo-European root *apero- 'coast',[4] and was originally applied to the mainland opposite Corfu and the Ionian islands.[5]
So according to Venetians in year 1210, so not centuries later but at the beginning of the XIII century the continent facing the island of Corfu, la terra firma was inhabited by Albanians. I don`t see a slavic sea, i don`t see greeks in Epir, i don`t see vlacs, only Albanias. And when you are in Corfu and you look in the east, you see at your left number 7, Laberia and to your right number 8 Chameria. This is what also saw this Venetian official, when he prepared this document. And this albanians did not arrived during the night in year 1210. This Albanians were there, because the Albanians are autochthonous in Epirus or South Albania.
The mystery of the "birds and the bees", resolved
Pseudohistory and greek chauvinism debunked.
Troll busted.

[Herr Abubu]

Maybe the first wave of Slavs but certainly not the proto Serbs and Proto Croats.

There was already a Serbian state in the Balkans, Rascia, since the beginning of 7th century, and Serbs and Croats were known as such even before they came to the Balkans. The only question is whether there wasn't also a presence of Bulgarian Slavs or not at this point, as there was later on, and which is seen in the intermediate Bulgarian-Serb Torlak dialect, and the fact that much of the toponymy we Albanians inherited from Slavs in Kosovo follows Bulgarian and not Serbian phonetic rules.

[catgeorge]

The first Bulgarian Empire lasted for 100 years. Simeon I of Bulgaria was referred to as half Greek. Battle of Kleidion in 1018 crippled them. They were crushed Samuel was killed - 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers were captured and their eyes were taken out and sent back. The Bulgarians were then expelled from Byzantine provinces. Bulgarians were also crushed in Dyrrhachium in were Bulgarians became subjagated. 2nd Bulgarian empire lasted for 60 years and was annhialted.

[kuqezi]

There was already a Serbian state in the Balkans, Rascia, since the beginning of 7th century, and Serbs and Croats were known as such even before they came to the Balkans. The only question is whether there wasn't also a presence of Bulgarian Slavs or not at this point, as there was later on, and which is seen in the intermediate Bulgarian-Serb Torlak dialect, and the fact that much of the toponymy we Albanians inherited from Slavs in Kosovo follows Bulgarian and not Serbian phonetic rules.

There are no 'Bulgarian Slavs' in this case. Bulgarian is just a Turkic identity that went on to become a political entity. Really the only difference is the Balkan Slavs (part of the Balkan sprachsbound or whatever it's called) and the Dinaric Slavs which are the Serbs and Croats. The Balkan Slavs have become synonymous with Bulgarians since the Bulgars ruled the larger mass of them and their descendants today are mainly the Bulgarians and Macedonians, and they are linguistically tied. Serbs intruded into Kosovo and other areas and brought the Slavs of those areas into their political and then ethnic fold without stripping away many of their older features. So we can say the Slavs of southern Albania predated 'Bulgarians' but were most similar to what we think were 'Bulgarian Slavs'. To say they were simply Bulgarians is wrong as that term is politically and historicaly loaded.

[ilir]

ss

[Albobalboa]

How common is slavic Y-DNA in Albanian lands?

No I don't mean anything that can be more linked to slavs in the balkans but is native or whatever. I mean actually traced back as slavic, from slavs- Poland, Ukraine etc.

[Kelmendasi]

How common is slavic Y-DNA in Albanian lands?

No I don't mean anything that can be more linked to slavs in the balkans but is native or whatever. I mean actually traced back as slavic, from slavs- Poland, Ukraine etc.
I2a1b(Dinaric) is a Slavic marker not native and it is found in Albania at about 10% or less depending on region, it is lower in frequencies in the north than in the south which has a higher amount of I2a1b

[Kelmendasi]

Also R1a which is Slavic or Germanic depending on clusters or subclades is found at about 9% or less in Albania although most of these are probably Slavic clusters

[Albobalboa]

Also R1a which is Slavic or Germanic depending on clusters or subclades is found at about 9% or less in Albania although most of these are probably Slavic clusters

So 20% Y-DNA in Albania is "foreign" from the balkans?

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

All there

[Albobalboa]

In a few years, as genetic tests become more refined and widespread, they will start to have a larger effect on identity. So basically the storm will wipe out 20% or so of Albanians, that's not too bad.

Edit: I don't know jack shit about genetics, I'm just interested in getting to some sort of core to that shit. In the end all is foreign bla bla. But I want to pinpoint it somehow. Anything but slavic y-dna is fine by me. Anything spread by slavs is cancer to my cells. It is slavsquat kompot and lacks besa.

[Kelmendasi]

So 20% Y-DNA in Albania is "foreign" from the balkans?

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

All there
Tbh it depends on cluster as you can have clusters of I2a that are native and the I2a category doesn't explicitly say I2a-Din meaning that some of it is Native it also depends on regions.. Anyways haplogroups don't determine what ethnicity you are, you can be I2a-din but still be 100% Albanian

[Albobalboa]

Tbh it depends on cluster as you can have clusters of I2a that are native and the I2a category doesn't explicitly say I2a-Din meaning that some of it is Native it also depends on regions.. Anyways haplogroups don't determine what ethnicity you are, you can be I2a-din but still be 100% Albanian

So what is it that determines ones ethnicity? Is there even a test that can determine it? How large % of Albanians would you estimate to be paternally Slav descendent?

[Kelmendasi]

So what is it that determines ones ethnicity? Is there even a test that can determine it? How large % of Albanians would you estimate to be paternally Slav descendent?
Autosomal will determine your ethnic make up. Drawing Slim which is I2a1b(Slavic marker) scores typical Albanian results on autosomal to the point that he get's 100% Balkan on DNA land as haplogroups are too distant to effect your ethnic or genetic makeup. I would recommend Living DNA for Albanians as they break down Albania and the Balkans into 3 categories, "Agean" which includes most of Greece most of Albania, "West Balkans" which includes some of Northwest Albania and most of western Balkans and Eastern Balkans which includes some of North-Eastern Albania, Kosova and other Eastern Balkan countries. Living dna also give detailed Ydna and Mtdna analysis

[Albobalboa]

Autosomal will determine your ethnic make up. Drawing Slim which is I2a1b(Slavic marker) scores typical Albanian results on autosomal to the point that he get's 100% Balkan on DNA land as haplogroups are too distant to effect your ethnic or genetic makeup. I would recommend Living DNA for Albanians as they break down Albania and the Balkans into 3 categories, "Agean" which includes most of Greece most of Albania, "West Balkans" which includes some of Northwest Albania and most of western Balkans and Eastern Balkans which includes some of North-Eastern Albania, Kosova and other Eastern Balkan countries. Living dna also give detailed Ydna and Mtdna analysis

Alright, feels like there's too many factors that play into this for me to even try to "get it". Not curious enough to pay £159 for a genetic test either at this point in my life.

[Albobalboa]

"Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few rigid genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques, Finns and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of identity by descent sharing, suggesting that both Albanians from Albania and Kosovo derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous, as they share a significant amount of descent with nearby Macedonian, Greek and Italian populations. The recent growth is particularly evident in Kosovar Albanians, which show particularly high levels of homogeneity, in contrast to the higher diversity otherwise found in other Balkan populations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

MUH PURITY

[Kelmendasi]

This is why I say that it depends on region as Tosks have a far higher amount of I when compared to Ghegs although this is I in general which means that it could be I1(Norse/Gothic), I2a2(Germanic) etc not necessarily I2a1b
https://s1.postimg.org/c4pdo5gin/albanians.png

[Scholarios]

It was in the Balkans even before the arrival of Slavic speakers. It is native.

Well, I guess that idea has finally been put to rest.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf+html

[Loki]

Well, I guess that idea has finally been put to rest.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf+html

I2a1 is not Slavic.

[Scholarios]

I2a1 is not Slavic.

well it doesn't appear in any pre-slavic balkan remains, that's for sure. some e1b, r1b, and sardinian type i2a. No Dinaric tho.

[Loki]

well it doesn't appear in any pre-slavic balkan remains, that's for sure. some e1b, r1b, and sardinian type i2a. No Dinaric tho.

Have all ancient remains been found and DNA tested?

[Scholarios]

Have all ancient remains been found and DNA tested?

and all ancient remains will never be tested. but that is a "god of the gaps" type argument tho.

[nightrider+]

I never bothered learning about other y-dna clades other than my own but I2a1 seems very interesting regarding the balkans. I wonder why it's more common with balkan slavs than with other slavs.

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time. Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

[Ylla]

I2a1 is not Slavic.

Loki, why do you keep repeating this? just curious

[Scholarios]

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time. Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

[catgeorge]

Only CTS10228 is "Slavic" - I2a1 is definitely not SLavic neither is I2a-Din

[Scholarios]

Only CTS10228 is "Slavic" - I2a1 is definitely not SLavic neither is I2a-Din

Ok but all them ancient remains and no I2 Dinaric.

All proof points to its Slavic . Only nationalism points to its not. Ad Nauseum

[catgeorge]

Ok but all them ancient remains and no I2 Dinaric.

All proof points to its Slavic . Only nationalism points to its not. Ad Nauseum

But it doesnt make sense majority of subclades of I2a1 P37.2 is found in west Europe not east Europe.

[nightrider+]

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

[Scholarios]

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

Yes, but if I am not mistaken, it seems to be a Iranic/Sarmatian clade which is not present in the Balkans today (outside of Roma populations maybe?).

[nightrider+]

Yes, but if I am not mistaken, it seems to be a Iranic/Sarmatian clade which is not present in the Balkans today (outside of Roma populations maybe?).

True but iirc it was found in Corded Ware Germany too. It could have already been in the Balkans back then, its frequency around here is still quite low anyway.

[Loki]

Loki, why do you keep repeating this? just curious

Because I believe it, I guess.

[ADonkeyBrain]

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

Απ'όσο θυμάμαι όχι ακριβώς όταν πέρασαν το Δούναβη αλλά ναι, σε επαφή με το Βυζάντιο κατά τις Ρωμαϊκές λίμες στο Δούναβη. Βέβαια ο Curta μιλούσε για εθνογένεση με την έννοια του "οι άνθρωποι που εμφανίζονται συγκεκριμένα ως 'Σ(κ)λάβ(ην)οι' στις πηγές μας, ο υλικός πολιτισμός τους κλπ" και όχι "τα γονίδια των ομιλητών της πρώιμης Σλαβικής κατά την επέκταση τους" ή "οι άνθρωποι της γλωσσικά Σλαβικής urheimat". Είναι κάπως παρεξηγημένο έργο γι'αυτούς ακριβώς τους λόγους (πόσο μάλλον σε φόρα τύπου apricity lol). Δεν εννοώς πως κάνεις κάτι τέτοιο εσύ (ή ο nightrider) εδώ, προφανώς.

Μου θύμισες πως πρέπει να το διαβάσω ξανά κάποια στιγμή γιατί είναι λεπτομερές και ιδιαίτερο έργο όσον αφορά αυτό το θέμα. Πάντως, ναι, φαίνεται πως ο Curta υποτίμησε αρκετά (to put it mildly) το μέγεθος της μετανάστευσης εκείνη την εποχή, σύμφωνα με τα σημερινά δεδομένα περί απλοομάδων τουλάχιστον. Το έργο του και οι απαντήσεις στους κριτικούς του είναι ενδιαφέροντα σε κάθε περίπτωση.

Το Din όντως φαίνεται μεταγενέστερο, τουλάχιστον στο μεγαλύτερο μέρος των Βαλκανίων. Δε νομίζω να αλλάξει κάτι αλλά ποιος ξέρει, θα δούμε.


True but iirc it was found in Corded Ware Germany too. It could have already been in the Balkans back then, its frequency around here is still quite low anyway.

If you can recall at some point, mention that sample. Z93 has been found so far in Srubnaya and Pazyryk as far as I remember (not that unexpected I suppose). It might have been somewhat more important in the past and lowered due to turnover or it might just be an unrepresentative finding representing a low overall % like today. The guy did have higher steppe than even the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample.

Οι μη-ελληνόφωνοι αρχαίοι λαοί των Βαλκανίων πάντως δε βλεπω πως θα μπορούσαν να μιλάνε "αρχαιότερη μορφή των Σλαβικών", εκτός αν δεν κατάλαβα πως ακριβώς το εννοείς. Ινδοευρωπαϊκές διαλέκτους που είχαν πολλά ισόγλωσσα πιθανώς. Ακόμη και η Αλβανική φαίνεται να έχει αρκετά λεξικά ισόγλωσσα με τις Βαλτοσλαβικές. Γενικά οι επεκτάσεις συγκεκριμένων γλωσσών σίγουρα ισοπέδωσαν την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ποικιλία και μας δίνουν διεστραμμένη εικόνα αλλά η πρόγονος της μεταγενέστερης γνωστής Σλαβικής σίγουρα μιλιόταν βόρεια των Βαλκανίων.

[Bardylis]

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

That's a totally different subclade to the ones found in Slavic speakers. It is Indo European or most likely asimilated Sarmatian. And we already knew there was some r1a and I2a in ancient balkans spread by the Thracians. None of it is i2a - DIN or linked to slavs or Germanics. Theres non-slavic i2a and r1a found in Albanians and Greeks. This is no surprise.


Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time.

I2a-Din came from Poland Ukraine ca. 1500 years ago. it rapidly expanded into the Balkans with Slavic invading tribes led by Avars/ Huns. They pillaged and enslaved the indigenous population.. Attila is known as one of the biggest killers in history.

Dardania / Dalmatia was depopulated of its indigenous population and they retreated into Malsia, both latin and Albanian speakers. Malsia already had a indigenous population that spoke the same language. Vlachs are just latinized proto-Albanians.


That I2a-din is not native , This was proven already years ago by Ken Nordtvedts research when they found it's ancestral clade in Poland.

In ancient Croatia there have been found typical Albanian ydna's like J2b2 L283 and R1b-Z2103 that are barely found in south slavs but no i2a din found but you still believe its native. Human stupidity has no limits as Albert Einstein once said.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

http://i.imgur.com/r4SuBeB.png


I2a-din in south albania is from subjogated and asimilated Bulgarians. Local Albanians defeated the Bulgarian empire and took hostages and later asimilated them.


Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. [QUOTE]

There's plenty of evidence. I2a-Din peaks in West Balkans due to a founder effect. This has been repeated 100 times. Your posts just repeat the same old myths like everyone else.

[QUOTE] Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

They spoke proto-Albanian.. pre - Slavic toponyms are explained in Albanian with the same meaning in Ilyrian . Notice when I say the same meaning. The only way Thracians , Ilyrian or Albanian is linked to Slavic is through Balto Slavic which again is linked to indo european expansion . Sarmatian was linked to Ilyrian and Thracians . The latter were even refered to as Indo Iranians . This all from indo european expansion . and that indo iranian r1a found makes sense too.


According to Johann Georg von Hahn in 1854, 19th century historical linguistics concluded that the names Dardanoi and Dardania were derived from a proto-Albanian word, meaning pear tree (dardha in modern Albanian the definite form, dardhë indefinite form < PAlb *dardā[8]), in view of the fact that toponyms related to fruits or animals are not unknown in the region (cf. Alb. dele/delmë "sheep" supposedly related to Dalmatia, Ulcinj in Montenegro < Alb. ujk, ulk "wolf" etc.). Opinions differ whether the ultimate etymon of this word in Proto-Indo-European was *g'hord-, or *dheregh-.[9]

These are with same meaning as in the Ilyrian language. Nothing to do with Slavic unless its indo european connection .


All i2a , r1a etc descendant from eachother obviously but over thousands of years and population movements they split and developed subclades and different branches and absorbed other populations in the process.


Some of 20th-century linguists[who?] have connected the name Bardylis with Albanian i bardhë "white",[6][7] There is another opinion that connects the name Bardylis with both Alb. i bardhë "white" and Alb. yll "star". According to Stuart Edward Mann, the second version is a folk etymology.[8] According to German linguist Paul Kretschner the name Bardylis is connected with the word "bardulos", which according to him means "grey" in the language of the Messapii in southern Italy.[9]

in Albanian it means white . In Ilyrian Bard also meant white . Messapian has also been linked to Albanian and were most likely Ilyrian migrants.

[Bardylis]

Because I believe it, I guess.

But your belief is based on absolutely nothing other than wishful thinking . We rather have the contrary evidence.

We have J2b2 L283 that peaks in Gheg Albanians found in Dalmatia . Ghegs have very little I2a din . Also DArdanians under Romans had dalmatian latin names.

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.

Not to mention these ancient samples found in yugoslavia plot east of tuscans / North italy same as Albanians . unless these samples are not throughly mixed with the big 3 hg, neolithic and yamnaya that came to form ancient balkan.


Most people here are propagandists trying to make ancient balkan slavic and comitting cultural marxism and cultural genocide upon the actual indigenous people . What has happened to Albanians , Vlachs etc is of course a cultural genocide and the result are modern balkanic politics and wars.

some south slavs are mixed with indigenous people , these were same genetically as Albanians but they can't admit this because they are retarded chauvunists .

they rather try to remove us from history because their ancestors comitted cultural genocide upon us and even ethnic genocide . they claim our lands as theirs such as kosovo and macedoni. in order to do this they need to remove us from history and disassociate us with anything ancient balkan and claim it as their own history. but genetics and language say otherwise.

Even the Greeks take part in this behavior.

[Drawing-slim]

But your belief is based on absolutely nothing other than wishful thinking . We rather have the contrary evidence.

We have J2b2 L283 that peaks in Gheg Albanians found in Dalmatia . Ghegs have very little I2a din . Also DArdanians under Romans had dalmatian latin names.

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.

Not to mention these ancient samples found in yugoslavia plot east of tuscans / North italy same as Albanians . unless these samples are not throughly mixed with the big 3 hg, neolithic and yamnaya that came to form ancient balkan.


Most people here are propagandists trying to make ancient balkan slavic and comitting cultural marxism and cultural genocide upon the actual indigenous people . What has happened to Albanians , Vlachs etc is of course a cultural genocide and the result are modern balkanic politics and wars.

some south slavs are mixed with indigenous people , these were same genetically as Albanians but they can't admit this because they are retarded chauvunists .

they rather try to remove us from history because their ancestors comitted cultural genocide upon us and even ethnic genocide . they claim our lands as theirs such as kosovo and macedoni. in order to do this they need to remove us from history and disassociate us with anything ancient balkan and claim it as their own history. but genetics and language say otherwise.

Even the Greeks take part in this behavior.
Very very good post. Truth spoken.

[nightrider+]

If you can recall at some point, mention that sample. Z93 has been found so far in Srubnaya and Pazyryk as far as I remember (not that unexpected I suppose). It might have been somewhat more important in the past and lowered due to turnover or it might just be an unrepresentative finding representing a low overall % like today. The guy did have higher steppe than even the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample.

Οι μη-ελληνόφωνοι αρχαίοι λαοί των Βαλκανίων πάντως δε βλεπω πως θα μπορούσαν να μιλάνε "αρχαιότερη μορφή των Σλαβικών", εκτός αν δεν κατάλαβα πως ακριβώς το εννοείς. Ινδοευρωπαϊκές διαλέκτους που είχαν πολλά ισόγλωσσα πιθανώς. Ακόμη και η Αλβανική φαίνεται να έχει αρκετά λεξικά ισόγλωσσα με τις Βαλτοσλαβικές. Γενικά οι επεκτάσεις συγκεκριμένων γλωσσών σίγουρα ισοπέδωσαν την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ποικιλία και μας δίνουν διεστραμμένη εικόνα αλλά η πρόγονος της μεταγενέστερης γνωστής Σλαβικής σίγουρα μιλιόταν βόρεια των Βαλκανίων.

I wasn't talking about Z93 but the usual European subclades, I didn't phrase it right.

There is little evidence on the Ancient Blakans languages, I don't see why they can't have spoken some language related to modern Slavic. Whatever its origins, we also have very little idea about when and how it spread. People love taking things for granted when there's not nearly enough evidence.

[Wrong]

I2a1b-Din has incredibly low diversity in the Balkans, it spread recently from the north/east during the middle ages.


This has been discussed one billion times.

[Wrong]

I2a2 is almost completely absent in South Slavs:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

[Wrong]

The only R1a that has been found in the Ancient Balkans is of the Z93 clade, which is not the Medieval Slavic clade most of Balkans is abundant of now.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png

[Wrong]

Slavonic Medieval R1a clades:


M458:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png


Y93:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

[Drawing-slim]

I am 100% in agreement that is not ancient balkan but i am also willing to bet anyone that all albanians with this Y are best citizens amongst all albanians as welll. Guaranteed,lol open bet to anyone on this.

[Wrong]

I am 100% in agreement that is not ancient balkan but i am also willing to bet anyone that all albanians with this Y are best citizens amongst all albanians as welll. Guaranteed,lol open bet to anyone on this.

I2a1b-Din is incredibly rare among Ghegs, especially highlanders.

Same goes for J2b1 that Dema is, a special snowflake in a sea of J2b2.

[Drawing-slim]

I2a1b-Din is incredibly rare among Ghegs, especially highlanders.

Same goes for the J2b1 that is Dema, a special snowflake.
In that case I alone will just have to represent all gehgs with this Y and my open bet is easily won:cool:

[Laberia]

In that case I alone will just have to represent all gehgs with this Y and my open bet is easily won:cool:

Këto janë muhabete për të shtyrë kohën, kur s'ke ça bën hajt fillojmë dhe lozim me haplogrupe.

[Drawing-slim]

Këto janë muhabete për të shtyrë kohën, kur s'ke ça bën hajt fillojmë dhe lozim me haplogrupe.Exactly. First world propblems,lol

[Wrong]

In that case I alone will just have to represent all gehgs with this Y and my open bet is easily won:cool:
In Albania I2a1b-Din is mostly associated with Vlachs(Aromanians).

Vlachs picked up a bunch of I2a1b-Din from early medieval Slavs.

Apart from that, Vlachs have decent frequencies of native Balkan J2b2, EV13 and R1b-L23.

[Bardylis]

I wasn't talking about Z93 but the usual European subclades, I didn't phrase it right.

There is little evidence on the Ancient Blakans languages, I don't see why they can't have spoken some language related to modern Slavic. Whatever its origins, we also have very little idea about when and how it spread. People love taking things for granted when there's not nearly enough evidence.

Why would they of spoken a language related to modern Slavic? Why not Germanic, Celtic or Indo-Iranian
or even Baltic or Albanian? All these languages have been linked to ancient balkan and Albanian through indo european but somehow youre fixated solely on Slavs as if we ought to believe you don't have a political/nationalist agenda and in the process you also contradict yourself in the last sentence.

You're theory has no genetical evidence or linguistical. It's just based on wishful thinking. Time to take that Slavic dick out of your ass.

Dardanians have nothing to do with Slavs either but rather Albanians and Romanized people.

Everything I say is based on the truth.

I2a-Din was proven to be non native long time ago but you autists still havent catched up. Instead Gheg YDNA's are being found in ancient "Yugoslavia" then whats so hard to believe that these people spoke a language related to modern Albanian, which they actually did when they even match us genetically.

Even the word Bosnia, which is a slavicized version of Bessana, and Dalmatia are from proto Albanian... Vlach is just latinized proto Albanian.

[catgeorge]

Albanians talking about genetics is hilarious.

[Drawing-slim]

Albanians talking about genetics is hilarious.this the lamest thing i've read from you or anyone else on this forum for that matter. Wow.

[catgeorge]

This is Helladic Neolithic pottery found in......... modern Bosnia which can be seen Bosnian museum - you can go on about subclades for ever and a dy but Albanians talking about genetics is a farce

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/butmir-vdvdv14.jpg


I2a1 is largely Sardinian and possible a few high caste families settled in Balkans via neolithic expansion carrying I2

The only difference in frequencies between Croatia and Sardinia is that Sardinia has more R1b and Croatia more R1a otherwise its structure is almost identicle.

[Bardylis]

Albanians talking about genetics is hilarious.

Wheres your argument ? its just your nationalism at it again . getting butthurt over facts again .

Whats rather hilarious is Greeks discussing genetics and history . and i can explain . just look at your posts and this retarded nightrider. Youre prob some of the most low IQ members on this forum. Serbs like Europa nazione and Cosmoo are some of the most knowledgeable. you Don't even know what subclades are until you were explained which took time for your low iq brain to understand . im not anti slavic or anti serb or anti greek but its obvious you wish to remove us , you ignore genetic evidence because you don't understand it . everything is biased with you to suit your own cause driven by ultra nationalism .


those ancient balkan samples plot right where albanians plot , east of tuscans / north italians . same ydna's too but you believe they spoke a language to modern slavic ? you must be fucking stupid . they spoke proto Albanian which even though has loaned words has kept its original syntax. even the paleo balkan origin of latinized languages is visible when you compare with Albanian . you might hate us but you certainly can't remove us from the picture . Don't kid yourself.

[catgeorge]

Wheres your argument ? its just your nationalism at it again . getting butthurt over facts again .

Whats rather hilarious is Greeks discussing genetics and history . and i can explain . just look at your posts and this retarded nightrider. Youre prob some of the most low IQ members on this forum. Serbs like Europa nazione and Cosmoo are some of the most knowledgeable. you Don't even know what subclades are until you were explained which took time for your low iq brain to understand . im not anti slavic or anti serb or anti greek but its obvious you wish to remove us , you ignore genetic evidence because you don't understand it . everything is biased with you to suit your own cause driven by ultra nationalism .


those ancient balkan samples plot right where albanians plot , east of tuscans / north italians . same ydna's too but you believe they spoke a language to modern slavic ? you must be fucking stupid . they spoke proto Albanian which even though has loaned words has kept its original syntax. even the paleo balkan origin of latinized languages is visible when you compare with Albanian . you might hate us but you certainly can't remove us from the picture . Don't kid yourself.

Yeah I do considering you are largely yamnayas speaking a Satem language like slavs and baltics do - looking highly caucasian (do not even go there I have seen plenty of short triangle headed Yamnayas in Greece) where you plot is immaterial...when I first saw you guys in Thessaloniki in 2002-2003 I thought you were Georgians... I actually still think some of you actually are. Does not say some indigenous people have been Albanised for one reason or another. The only people here that are butthurt are Albanians spamming the Greek forum night and day projecting their insecurities unknowing we know exactly what you Yamnayas look like.

[Wrong]

Wheres your argument ? its just your nationalism at it again . getting butthurt over facts again .

Whats rather hilarious is Greeks discussing genetics and history . and i can explain . just look at your posts and this retarded nightrider. Youre prob some of the most low IQ members on this forum. Serbs like Europa nazione and Cosmoo are some of the most knowledgeable. you Don't even know what subclades are until you were explained which took time for your low iq brain to understand . im not anti slavic or anti serb or anti greek but its obvious you wish to remove us , you ignore genetic evidence because you don't understand it . everything is biased with you to suit your own cause driven by ultra nationalism .


those ancient balkan samples plot right where albanians plot , east of tuscans / north italians . same ydna's too but you believe they spoke a language to modern slavic ? you must be fucking stupid . they spoke proto Albanian which even though has loaned words has kept its original syntax. even the paleo balkan origin of latinized languages is visible when you compare with Albanian . you might hate us but you certainly can't remove us from the picture . Don't kid yourself.

catpussy still doesn't get what a subclade is.

[Dick]

catpussy still doesn't get what a subclade is.

Subclades are important. Anway, whats the slav subclade for I2?

[Wrong]

Subclades are important. Anway, whats the slav subclade for I2?
I2a1b-Din(I-M423)

Its expansion points from Northeast.

[catgeorge]

catpussy still doesn't get what a subclade is.

What morons like you do not understand is that SNPs within branches in this case is I-P37 which has not been mentioned once. Some SNPs are branched off an are merely 200 years old now.. slavic yesterday and new ones are Balkan?

It is impossible to determine what is slavic and what is not if you have no idea what the population was in the area pre-800 AD. I think you are an Albanised Slav where your grand daddy got brainfucked behing the walls of communism.. prove it that you werent

[Wrong]

What morons like you do not understand is that SNPs within branches in this case is I-P37 which has not been mentioned once. Some SNPs are branched off an are merely 200 years old now.. slavic yesterday and new ones are Balkan?

It is impossible to determine what is slavic and what is not if you have no idea what the population was in the area pre-800 AD. I think you are an Albanised Slav where your grand daddy got brainfucked behing the walls of communism.. prove it that you werent
Much of Greece got fucked over by Medieval Slavic I2a1b-Din + R1a carriers from Poland/Ukraine and today the result we got is catpussy.

End of story.

[catgeorge]

I2a1b-Din(I-M423)

Its expansion points from Northeast.

I-M423 branched off mostly into western europe through L161.1 and has majority of subclades. :033102st:

[Wrong]

I-M423 branched off mostly into western europe through L161.1 and has majority of subclades. :033102st:
And Greeks do not carry the ancestral clade, but the Slavic one(I-CTS10228). Diversity is low.


I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228)


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/I2a1-tree.png

[catgeorge]

And Greeks do not carry the ancestral clade, but the Slavic one. Diversity is incredibly low since it's a rather young clade.


I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228)

Yes Kavala does have some CTS10228 I have no problem with that..now thats a slavic marker.

[Coolguy1]

And Greeks do not carry the ancestral clade, but the Slavic one. Diversity is incredibly low since it's a rather young clade.


I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228)

And guess what, Albanians carry more than twice of it than do Greeks

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/18426142_1343205155762631_250978282_o.png?oh=9aa23 933d8b715d2c653b4fb6a9f6db9&oe=591E40FA

[Wrong]

Yes Kavala does have some CTS10228 I have no problem with that..now thats a slavic marker.
Well, you are a Levantine + Russian mix. It's everywhere.


Unlike me for example who is pretty much northwestern shifted, it simply tells Slavic admixture was minimal in my case:

http://i.imgur.com/3iBRChF.png

[Trilecce]

It is interesting how its so densely present in Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia, but are there any explanations as to why there is a large cluster in Albania?

Tsar Dushans leftovers. Same area is home to many vlachs and is the most ethnically diverse albanian land. Unlike the north where there is extreme ethnic homogeneity

[Wrong]

And guess what, Albanians carry more than twice of it than do Greeks

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/18426142_1343205155762631_250978282_o.png?oh=9aa23 933d8b715d2c653b4fb6a9f6db9&oe=591E40FA

Macedonia(Northern Greece) is higher. These samples are 0 Ghegs.

Look at Kosovo or Highlanders from the Albanian Bloodlines project if you want the whole picture for Ghegs, I2 as a whole is not even 4% there.

[catgeorge]

Well, you are a Levantine + Russian mix. It's everywhere.


Unlike me for example who is pretty much northwestern shifted, it simply tells Slavic admixture was minimal in my case:

http://i.imgur.com/3iBRChF.png

These calculators are nonsense - you are Yamnayas.

I can make myself look anywhich way I want with any given calculator. Greek eastern europe component is as small as you can get it.

[Coolguy1]

Macedonia(Northern Greece) is higher. These samples are 0 Ghegs.

Look at Kosovo if you want the whole picture.

Greek Macedonia has Slavic speakers to this day in some parts, take them out of the mix and the results will match other Greeks. If no Ghegs were used then the study would clearly specify that.

[Wrong]

These calculators are nonsense - you are Yamnayas.

I can make myself look anywhich way I want with any given calculator. Greek eastern europe component is as small as you can get it.

Your madre thought nonsense when she was fucked by an Albanian R1b-BY611 dick.

[Trilecce]

And guess what, Albanians carry more than twice of it than do Greeks

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/18426142_1343205155762631_250978282_o.png?oh=9aa23 933d8b715d2c653b4fb6a9f6db9&oe=591E40FA

Would be interesting to see what the percentage is in fyrom and Bulgaria.

[Wrong]

Greek Macedonia has Slavic speakers to this day in some parts, take them out of the mix and the results will match other Greeks. If no Ghegs were used then the study would clearly specify that.
Check the other samples for Kosovo, is all I will say.

[catgeorge]

I-P37 is Paleolithic in Balkans does not mean it is Slavic. :picard1:

[catgeorge]

Lack of I in Balkans = new arrivals from somewhere else.

[Wrong]

Lack of I in Balkans = new arrivals from somewhere else.
Lack of Medieval Slavic ancestry*.

Let's not forget R1a which is also Medieval Slavic and not the Scythian Z93 branch. It can reach up to 30% in some Greek areas.

[catgeorge]

Lack of Medieval Slavic ancestry*.

Let's not forget R1a which is also Medieval Slavic and not the Scythian Z93 branch. It can reach up to 30% in some Greek areas.

*Ottoman settlers from Caucasia.

[Wrong]

100+ Gheg samples and only 3 I2a1b-Din, the rest is I1 Goth/Norman and I2c.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

[Wrong]

*Ottoman settlers from Caucasia.
Ancient samples from the Balkans proved you wrong again. Low IQ retard nationalist.

[catgeorge]

Ancient samples from the Balkans proved you wrong again. Low IQ retard nationalist.

Truth will set you free.

[Lek]

Ancient samples from the Balkans proved you wrong again. Low IQ retard nationalist.

Ancient BAlkanites SPOKE a LANGuAge similar to modern Slavic meeen !!!!

[Coolguy1]

Tsar Dushans leftovers. Same area is home to many vlachs and is the most ethnically diverse albanian land. Unlike the north where there is extreme ethnic homogeneity

I dont think it was the result of Serbs but rather of Bulgars. We have to remember that a large portion of Albania was under the First Bulgarian Empire that lasted from the 7th to 11th centuries. The toponyms are also more similar to those found in FYROM and Bulgaria than in Serbia. This area that is now part of Albania was called Kutmichevitsa and played an important role in the formation of Bulgarian state. An important center in this area was Berat, which is derived from "Belgrad"

Even in Korca you can find remnants of these Slavs who are now almost completely Albanized in the villages of Boboshtica and Drenova...

According to German linguist Gustav Weigand, during the first decades of the 20th century, Bulgarian villages Boboschtitza and Drenowo were a Bulgarian linguistic island in Albania.[13] The historian Ivan Snegarov noted in 1934 significant processes of albanization among the local Bulgarians.[4] The majority of the population of the village was Bulgarian until 1960. Then the mass migration of Vlachs began, while the old local population emigrated to the cities in Albania.[14]

According to some scientists Boboshticë and the neighboring Drenovë were the only villages in which the Korča dialect of the Macedonian language was still spoken (as of 1991).[15] According to linguist Xhelal Ylli, following a visit to the village in 2005, only five or six speakers remained living in the village.[16] The dialect is classified as part of Bulgarian dialects by other authors.[17][18][14] Some Bulgarian linguists emphasize that the reflexes of yat in this western Bulgarian dialect is wide, like it is in Eastern Bulgarian dialects.[19][20]

Dhimitër Theodhor Çanço (Tsantso) was a teacher from the village who wrote the historical "Memorandia", a collection of oral transmitted historical facts, as well as documentary facts. The "Memorandia" was written in Greek. The original copy belongs to the person's family. It was copied by two of Canco's nephews and the copy is part of Albanian Archives. In his memoirs, written in Greek, Tcanko defined the local villagers as Orthodox Christians who speak a Bulgarian dialect.[21] Andre Mazon, an expert in Slavic studies, has published an exceptional source of information it in his Documents slaves de l'Albanie de Sud, II, pieces complemetaires (Paris, Institut d'Etudes Slaves, 1965), where Bulgarian scholar Maria Filipova performed the translation from Greek to French.[22]





It is also true that the Aromanians brought a large amount of I2 to the southern Balkans, suggesting that their original homeland is further north.

Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns

Link to the study below

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

[DarknessWin]

First of all Slavs were not I2a1 and
Second no group belong to just 1 haplo

[Laberia]

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time. Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

You have to options:
1)The mainstream theory of the slavic invasion.
2)Sathas theory about Albanians who overruned Greece until Cyprus.
Illyrians, Thracians, etc, speaking a slavic language, sounds something like Veliki Aleksandrov.

[catgeorge]

You have to options:
1)The mainstream theory of the slavic invasion.
2)Sathas theory about Albanians who overruned Greece until Cyprus.
Illyrians, Thracians, etc, speaking a slavic language, sounds something like Veliki Aleksandrov.


No one knows what proto-Slavs spoke precisely we can only assume it is a Satem Scytho-Iranic influence. They migrated to South Central Balkans peacefully. They got excited through the potential of glory of being emperor of a millenia old succesful empire centuries after their christianization which enabled them to conduct commerce etc with their immediate neighbours. When you are on top everyone tries to take you down which is fair enough...they mingled with locals (they did not migrate to a barron waste land) but they did migrate some 750 years before anything about an Albanian was written.. possibly a combination of a south slavic settler and cuman/pecheneg yamnaya (this is albanians)

[Laberia]

No one knows what proto-Slavs spoke precisely we can only assume it is a Satem Scytho-Iranic influence. They migrated to South Central Balkans peacefully. They got excited through the potential of glory of being emperor of a millenia old succesful empire centuries after their christianization which enabled them to conduct commerce etc with their immediate neighbours. When you are on top everyone tries to take you down which is fair enough...they mingled with locals (they did not migrate to a barron waste land) but they did migrate some 750 years before anything about an Albanian was written.. possibly a combination of a south slavic settler and cuman/pecheneg yamnaya (this is albanians)

Lol, Turkish sperm, this is how your compatriots call you. Hahahahah
Halldup.

[Loki]

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.


You say I am into wishful thinking, yet it is you who call evidences against your theory "coincidence".

[Scholarios]

This should not be in troll carnival. Please remove and place back in the regular forum sections.

[Dick]

Is the I2 in Romania the same subclade?

[Voskos]

Is the I2 in Romania the same subclade?

ye

[Kelmendasi]

ye
I'm pretty sure they belong to a different group of I2a-Din but idk

[Voskos]

I'm pretty sure they belong to a different group of I2a-Din but idk

i meant they're both i2a M432

[Voskos]

423 sorry

[Kelmendasi]

i meant they're both i2a M432
Oh. But do they belong to the same exact snp/cluster or not?

[Voskos]

Oh. But do they belong to the same exact snp/cluster or not?

no idea

[Dick]

no idea

I2a1b L621. some sources say it came to the Balkans with the thracians

[Kelmendasi]

I2a1b L621. some sources say it came to the Balkans with the thracians
Doubt it

[Jackson78]

They fucked like rabbits and had 10+ kids per family since the middle ages. What else are you gonna do in the mountans other than fuck and eat.

This is called "founder effect".

[Dick]

Doubt it

Why? Is that the subclade in question here?

[Voskos]

I2a1b L621. some sources say it came to the Balkans with the thracians

pssible but the ancient bulgarian samples in the last study were I2a2, R1b, R1a Z93, T1a1, G2a, C , H2

[Kelmendasi]

Why? Is that the subclade in question here?
Doubt it since it's the clade that South Slavs have the most. Not sure if OP was talking about this exact subclade though

[Kelmendasi]

What I find weird is how Romanians have such high I2a-Din even though they aren't Slavs. Perhaps it's due to genetic drift

[Voskos]

What I find weird is how Romanians have such high I2a-Din even though they aren't Slavs. Perhaps it's due to genetic drift

baltic drift

[Wrong]

What I find weird is how Romanians have such high I2a-Din even though they aren't Slavs. Perhaps it's due to genetic drift
It's also high in Vlachs of Albania, 30-40% I2a1b frequency.

[Kelmendasi]

The fact that I2a1b was found in north-western Europe could mean that it actually was from Goths, perhaps Deymark was correct lol xD

[Kelmendasi]

It's also high in Vlachs of Albania, 30-40% I2a1b frequency.
Vlachs/Aromanians of Albania also have a massive amount of J2b2-L283

[Wrong]

The fact that I2a1b was found in north-western Europe could mean that it actually was from Goths, perhaps Deymark was correct lol xD
Cosmoo said that iirc.

[Wrong]

Vlachs/Aromanians of Albania also have a massive amount of J2b2-L283
Yes, they probably picked it up from the Dinaric mountains.

[Kelmendasi]

Cosmoo said that iirc.
Yes he did but Deymark kept on claiming it as well

[Voskos]

It's also high in Vlachs of Albania, 30-40% I2a1b frequency.

i've seen some Greek texts where the term vlach is used to refer to medieval isolated slavic-speaking populations of Greece .

[Wrong]

i've seen some Greek texts where the term vlach is used to refer to medieval isolated slavic-speaking populations of Greece .
Maybe a fair bit of them are Latinized Slavs, before the Cyril & Methodius.

[Flea]

There is no proof of I2-DIN being slav,I2-DIN is a native european haplogroup ,it one of the original haplo of HG,only albanians on TA believe its a slavic haplogroup.
The slavic look in balkans is rare especially on zones were I2-DIN is the highest were the slavic look its non-existent.

[Kelmendasi]

According to Eupedia, Vlachs have a higher amount of J2 than I

[Wrong]

There is no proof of I2-DIN being slav,I2-DIN is a native european haplogroup ,it one of the original haplo of HG,only albanians on TA believe its a slavic haplogroup.
The slavic look in balkans is rare especially on zones were I2-DIN is the highest were the slavic look its non-existent.
I2-Din is nowhere found in Balkan Ancient samples. The only I2 found is I2a2 and barely exists anymore in Balkans, which is common in Northwest Germany, but even that is not the same subclade.

I2a2

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

[Kelmendasi]

There is no proof of I2-DIN being slav,I2-DIN is a native european haplogroup ,it one of the original haplo of HG,only albanians on TA believe its a slavic haplogroup.
The slavic look in balkans is rare especially on zones were I2-DIN is the highest were the slavic look its non-existent.
There is some proof now. On the recent study conducted there wasn't any I2a-Din found in the Balkans, only I2a2, R1b, R1a(Iranic), J2b2, G2a and E1b-L618(father of E-V13) was found. Every body that is mentally sane believes that I2a-Din is Slavic, the non-Slavic theory is an old, out-dated theory with no actual evidence to back it up. Although it was a HG haplogroup and it was found in north-western Europe

[Wrong]

There is some proof now. On the recent study conducted there wasn't any I2a-Din found in the Balkans, only I2a2, R1b, R1a(Iranic), J2b2, G2a and E1b-L618(father of E-V13) was found. Every body that is mentally sane believes that I2a-Din is Slavic, the non-Slavic theory is an old, out-dated theory with no actual evidence to back it up. Although it was a HG haplogroup and it was found in north-western Europe
It's most likely from Ukraine due to it's high diversity there.

[Flea]

I2-Din is nowhere found in Balkan Ancient samples. The only I2 found is I2a2 and barely exists anymore in Balkans, which is common in Northwest Germany, but even that is not the same subclade.

I2a2

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

Its like arguing that because nowadays I2A2 and G are rare in balkans ,that they were never a balkan haplogroup.Its just a matter of when the test was done.Its not as simple as getting a few samples and coming to conclussion that there were no I2A1 in balkans.

and j2b2 is neolitic and has nothing to do with illyrians.

The j2b2 if i remember well was like 15% HG and 20% INDO-EUROPEANS,no europeans score this low nowadays ,that guy was recent immigrant in a pool of hunter-gatherers
There was no EV13 in that study,which is the most common gheg haplo, but you seem you albanians forgot to point this out.
What the study shows is that balkans and Europe was made of mainly Hunter Gatherers haplogruops like I and G ,with a few farming haplos like J.

That there were no I2a1 in the study is no problem in itself,the samples were small and HG were always on the move and traveling in packs.
HG unlike neolitic farmers were moving frequently,hence the small sample of like 10 people of which a few didnt even had Y-DNA doesnt prove a thing,finding j2b2 is nothing uncommon,its an neolitic farmers haplo,

[Kelmendasi]

Its like arguing that because nowadays I2A2 and G are rare in balkans ,that they were never a balkan haplogroup.Its just a matter of when the test was done.Its not as simple as getting a few samples and coming to conclussion that there were no I2A1 in balkans.

and j2b2 is neolitic and has nothing to do with illyrians.
There was no EV13 in that study,which is the most common gheg haplo, but you seem you albanians forgot to point this out.
What the study shows is that balkans and Europe was made of mainly Hunter Gatherers haplogruops like I and G ,with a few farming haplos like J.

That there were no I2a1 in the study is no problem in itself,the samples were small and HG were always on the move and traveling in packs.
HG unlike neolitic farmers were moving frequently,hence the small sample of like 10 people of which a few didnt even had Y-DNA doesnt prove a thing,finding j2b2 is nothing uncommon,its an neolitic farmers haplo,
The father of E-V13 was found which could mean that E-V13 was present there later on. J2b2 was found from a proto-Illyrian sample which means that it does have something to do with Illyrians also it's probably not a Neolithic haplogroup but in fact it could of been an Indo-European haplogroup as the proto-Illyrian with it was 30% Steppe admixed and had a typical Steppe Mtdna. The results were released this month. So far we can conclude that there wasn't any I2a1b in the Balkans as it wasn't found

[Kelmendasi]

.The j2b2 if i remember well was like 15% HG and 20% INDO-EUROPEANS,no europeans score this low nowadays ,that guy was recent immigrant in a pool of hunter-gatherers
\,
He was 15% Eastern Hunter-Gatherer not 15% Hunter-Gatherer in general. The Balkans at that time was mainly G2a and this is evident due to the fact that it was found in massive amounts in Bulgaria and Serbia

[Flea]

The father of E-V13 was found which could mean that E-V13 was present there later on. J2b2 was found from a proto-Illyrian sample which means that it does have something to do with Illyrians also it's probably not a Neolithic haplogroup but in fact it could of been an Indo-European haplogroup as the proto-Illyrian with it was 30% Steppe admixed and had a typical Steppe Mtdna. The results were released this month. So far we can conclude that there wasn't any I2a1b in the Balkans as it wasn't found


You dont understand.Let me put this straight to you,during the samples test majority by far were hunter gatherer haplos like I and G ,but nowadays albanians are mostly E and J very much unlike their neighbours .
Who says that sample is proto-illyrian?
J2b2 is farmer haplogroup,it didnt come with indo-europeans,this is unanymous opinion of anthrpologists.
> So far we can conclude that there wasn't any I2a1b in the Balkans as it wasn't found
Few samples dont conclude anything,if they did test with 1 less sample HIGH chance there wouldnt have been any EV13 or J2B2 in the study either and just full HG haplos.
Also,were was the EV13?i didnt see it on the bronze age balkans.

[Flea]

He was 15% Eastern Hunter-Gatherer not 15% Hunter-Gatherer in general. The Balkans at that time was mainly G2a and this is evident due to the fact that it was found in massive amounts in Bulgaria and Serbia

As i said previously hunter gatheres were always on the move and they were very few compared to farmers.
The fact that the j2b2 scored 15% ehg means even more that he was a recent addition in Europe..and how can you link a J2B2 sample from that time with illyrians ?!

[Wrong]

As i said previously hunter gatheres were always on the move and they were very few compared to farmers.
The fact that the j2b2 scored 15% ehg means even more that he was a recent addition in Europe..and how can you link a J2B2 sample from that time with illyrians ?!
Which means his WHG might peak even higher. Even more Ancient J2b2 samples have been found in Sardinia.

[Kelmendasi]

You dont understand.Let me put this straight to you,during the samples test majority by far were hunter gatherer haplos like I and G ,but nowadays albanians are mostly E and J very much unlike their neighbours .
Who says that sample is proto-illyrian?
J2b2 is farmer haplogroup,it didnt come with indo-europeans,this is unanymous opinion of anthrpologists.
> So far we can conclude that there wasn't any I2a1b in the Balkans as it wasn't found
Few samples dont conclude anything,if they did test with 1 less sample HIGH chance there wouldnt have been any EV13 or J2B2 in the study either and just full HG haplos.
Also,were was the EV13?i didnt see it on the bronze age balkans.
Dude G2a is the original Neolithic farmer haplogroup, it has nothing to do with Hunter-Gatherers. He was proto-Illyrian as the age of the sample coincides with the arrival of the Illyrians into the Balkans. I just explained to you about the fact that the father clade of E-V13 was found

[Flea]

Which means his WHG might peak even higher. Even more Ancient J2b2 samples have been found in Sardinia.

At 15% EHG and something like 20% indo-european it means theres about 65% to spread between WHG and farmers,very low and unusual for that period,obvious recent import and nothing to do with illyrians and just partly european.