Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

[Kelmendasi]

As i said previously hunter gatheres were always on the move and they were very few compared to farmers.
The fact that the j2b2 scored 15% ehg means even more that he was a recent addition in Europe..and how can you link a J2B2 sample from that time with illyrians ?!
As I have just said the J2b2 sample's age coincides with the Illyrian arrival into the Balkans

[Wrong]

At 15% EHG and something like 20% indo-european it means theres about 65% to spread between WHG and farmers,very low and unusual for that period,obvious recent import and nothing to do with illyrians and just partly european.
G2 is the only confirmed Farmer haplogroup. You can't pinpoint the rest in that.

[Kelmendasi]

At 15% EHG and something like 20% indo-european it means theres about 65% to spread between WHG and farmers,very low and unusual for that period,obvious recent import and nothing to do with illyrians and just partly european.
Genetic evidence and timing suggest otherwise, he was Illyrian whether or not you will accept it. But I guess your angry because it disproves your theory on Albanians coming from the Caucasus

[Wrong]

J2b2 might have come from Sardinia to the Balkans 8000 years ago by a migration from the West, or even from Central Europe.

Caucasus is out of the question as L283 is only found in Europe.

[Kelmendasi]

"The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria." http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b2a1

[Dick]

Dude G2a is the original Neolithic farmer haplogroup They did both. Oetzi was out hunting for mountain goats when he was murdered.

[Kelmendasi]

They did both. Oetzi was out hunting for mountain goats when he was murdered.
Hahahahaha, well yh but he came into Europe via the Neolithic migrations. It's obvious that Neolithic farmers already knew how to hunt

[Dick]

J2b2 might have come from Sardinia to the Balkans 8000 years ago by a migration from the West, or even from Central Europe.

Caucasus is out of the question as L283 is only found in Europe.

Hmm. Let's say the early farmers and maybe even WHG were seafarers. Indo-Europeans definitely weren't. They relied on horses.

[Kelmendasi]

J2b2 might have come from Sardinia to the Balkans 8000 years ago by a migration from the West, or even from Central Europe.

Caucasus is out of the question as L283 is only found in Europe.
Some of it may have migrated into the Steppe from the Balkans were it later expanded from in greater numbers

[Dick]

Hahahahaha, well yh but he came into Europe via the Neolithic migrations. It's obvious that Neolithic farmers already knew how to hunt

Well every archaic human was a hunter and gather. Farming came afterwards

[Kelmendasi]

Hmm. Let's say the early farmers and maybe even WHG were seafarers. Indo-Europeans definitely weren't. They relied on horses.
Yh this thing with J2b2-L283 is weird because apparently it was first found among Sardinians, but people still claim that it came with Indo-Europeans. I believe that maybe some J2b2-L283 from the Balkans migrated to the Steppe where it later expanded from with the Indo-Europeans

[Wrong]

Yh this thing with J2b2-L283 is weird because apparently it was first found among Sardinians, but people still claim that it came with Indo-Europeans. I believe that maybe some J2b2-L283 from the Balkans migrated to the Steppe where it later expanded from with the Indo-Europeans
In some calculator, the Atlanto-Mediterranean component peaks in Albanians, especially Ghegs across all of Eastern Europe

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

In some calculator, the Atlanto-Mediterranean components peaks in Albanians, especially Ghegs across all of Eastern Europe

[IG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg[/IMG]
Out of all Albanians here I get the most of it ;)

[Flea]

Dude G2a is the original Neolithic farmer haplogroup, it has nothing to do with Hunter-Gatherers. He was proto-Illyrian as the age of the sample coincides with the arrival of the Illyrians into the Balkans. I just explained to you about the fact that the father clade of E-V13 was found

My bad i mixed G with C,even so there was only 1 sample of G during balkan bronze age and the majority were still I2.
Balkans was NOT g2a ,the balkan neolitic they tested were from neolitic balkans settlement hence the neolitic haplos.
But the best proof we have so far is historical,we know for sure that balkans were made of groups like Illyrians,Dacians and Thracians ,which were light haired and eyed people,hence they couldnt have been farmers or albanians..
As i said the samples are too few,and that j2b2 cant be linked to illyrians and even if it was illyrians there was no doubt illyrians had farmer input.

[Dick]

Some of it may have migrated into the Steppe from the Balkans were it later expanded from in greater numbers

Seafaring words in Norse are of a non indoeuropean source for example. Big Boss might know more about it since he speaks Norse.

[Flea]

Yh this thing with J2b2-L283 is weird because apparently it was first found among Sardinians, but people still claim that it came with Indo-Europeans. I believe that maybe some J2b2-L283 from the Balkans migrated to the Steppe where it later expanded from with the Indo-Europeans

No one claims they came with indo-europeans,j2b2 is a clear farming haplogroup,
sardianians are mixes of neolitic and WHG ,but the vast majority are neoltiic hence a very dark look unusual for Europe..

[Dick]

Yh this thing with J2b2-L283 is weird because apparently it was first found among Sardinians, but people still claim that it came with Indo-Europeans. I believe that maybe some J2b2-L283 from the Balkans migrated to the Steppe where it later expanded from with the Indo-Europeans

Don't albanians get some Sardinian % on dnaland?

[Kelmendasi]

My bad i mixed G with C,even so there was only 1 sample of G during balkan bronze age and the majority were still I2.
Balkans was NOT g2a ,the balkan neolitic they tested were from neolitic balkans settlement hence the neolitic haplos.
But the best proof we have so far is historical,we know for sure that balkans were made of groups like Illyrians,Dacians and Thracians ,which were light haired and eyed people,hence they couldnt have been farmers or albanians..
As i said the samples are too few,and that j2b2 cant be linked to illyrians and even if it was illyrians there was no doubt illyrians had farmer input.
There wasn't only one G2a, what are you talking about? Also all the I2a was I2a2(Pre-Celtic-Germanic)
https://s3.postimg.org/l355wq61v/Balkan_genetics_1.png

https://s23.postimg.org/o7vikj06z/Balkan_genetics_2.png

https://s17.postimg.org/4iwsy2m4v/Balkan_genetics_3.png

[Kelmendasi]

Don't albanians get some Sardinian % on dnaland?
Yh some do, I personally got 1.1% Sardinian on dnaland

[Kelmendasi]

No one claims they came with indo-europeans,j2b2 is a clear farming haplogroup,
sardianians are mixes of neolitic and WHG ,but the vast majority are neoltiic hence a very dark look unusual for Europe..
Eupedia does. Explain to me why the J2b2-L283 Proto-Illyrian was 30% Steppe admixed and why he had a typical Steppe Mtdna

[Wrong]

There wasn't only one G2a, what are you talking about? Also all the I2a was I2a2(Pre-Celtic-Germanic)
https://s3.postimg.org/l355wq61v/Balkan_genetics_1.png

https://s23.postimg.org/o7vikj06z/Balkan_genetics_2.png

https://s17.postimg.org/4iwsy2m4v/Balkan_genetics_3.png

The I2a2 wasnt even the same line as the Germanic one.

[Kelmendasi]

The I2a2 wasnt even the same line as the Germanic one.
Yh it's pre-Germanic

[Coolguy1]

Yh it's pre-Germanic

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1a

Scroll down and find the i2a2 map, apparently its still present in northern Greece/Southern Albania in small amounts.

[Flea]

There wasn't only one G2a, what are you talking about? Also all the I2a was I2a2(Pre-Celtic-Germanic)
https://s3.postimg.org/l355wq61v/Balkan_genetics_1.png

https://s23.postimg.org/o7vikj06z/Balkan_genetics_2.png

https://s17.postimg.org/4iwsy2m4v/Balkan_genetics_3.png

I talk about there was 1 G2A on bronze balkan settlement,the neolitic one would have clearly scored fully neolitic .......i already posted why having no i2a1 was no problem..

[Kelmendasi]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1a

Scroll down and find the i2a2 map, apparently its still present in northern Greece/Southern Albania in small amounts.
Yh. Before this study got released I bet most people would of said that I2a2 in Albania and Greece is due to Normans but this study proves it's native

[Kelmendasi]

I talk about there was 1 G2A on bronze balkan settlement,the neolitic one would have clearly scored fully neolitic .......i already posted why having no i2a1 was no problem..
Dude you have to know that so far evidence is backing up the Slavic origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans but hey there was I2a1b found in Sweden so you can claim to be Gothic again xD

[Flea]

Dude you have to know that so far evidence is backing up the Slavic origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans but hey there was I2a1b found in Sweden so you can claim to be Gothic again xD

What evidence,only in TA you see i2-din claimed as slavic.Do you know what slavic means in context of balkans?It means Yugoslavs,not russians.Yugoslavs by blood have nothing to do with russians,only language is slavic and counties with most I2-DIN look the least slavic.R1A is the slavic continuity in yugoslavs.
so far if i open any big wsite like eupedia i2din is regarded as paleo-balkanic and one fully european haplo,it did not come with slav,it could have been found spread throughout all the right half of Europe.

[Kelmendasi]

What evidence,only in TA you see i2-din claimed as slavic.Do you know what slavic means in context of balkans?It means Yugoslavs,not russians.
so far if i open any big wsite like eupedia i2din is regarded as paleo-balkanic and one fully european haplo,it did not come with slav,it could have been found spread throughout all the right half of Europe.
Eupedia now claims it to be Slavic dude, go check for yourself. This is what Eupedia says about I2a1b: "The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a population. This I2-L147.2 ancestor would have such an impact on the burgeoning Early Slavic population, still small 2,300 years ago, but booming.

After the Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs living further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century, the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the L147.2 branch, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago."

[Lek]

What evidence,only in TA you see i2-din claimed as slavic.Do you know what slavic means in context of balkans?It means Yugoslavs,not russians.Yugoslavs by blood have nothing to do with russians,only language is slavic and counties with most I2-DIN look the least slavic.R1A is the slavic continuity in yugoslavs.
so far if i open any big wsite like eupedia i2din is regarded as paleo-balkanic and one fully european haplo,it did not come with slav,it could have been found spread throughout all the right half of Europe.

Only TA?


Lol.

It was proven that it's Slavic/ Not native to it's present area years ago like 2011 with Ken Nordtvedts research that found it's ancestral clade in Poland. The high frequency in West Balkans is the result of a founder effect.

[Kelmendasi]

Only TA?


Lol.

It was proven that it's Slavic/ Not native to it's present area years ago like 2011 with Ken Nordtvedts research that found it's ancestral clade in Poland. The high frequency in West Balkans is the result of a founder effect.
Not only that but Eupedia which used to claim that I2a-Din is native now says that it's Slavic

[Lek]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1a

Scroll down and find the i2a2 map, apparently its still present in northern Greece/Southern Albania in small amounts.

It's native from hunter gatherers and was definitely carried by Thracians

[Voskos]

Not only that but Eupedia which used to claim that I2a-Din is native now says that it's Slavic

even some politicians have made statements in the last days about the slavic origin of I2a , publicly acknowledging they were wrong all along

[Kelmendasi]

even some politicians have made statements in the last days about the slavic origin of I2a , publicly acknowledging they were wrong all along
Really hahahaha, what did they say?

[Kelmendasi]

It's native from hunter gatherers and was definitely carried by Thracians
Illyrians probably did as well

[Voskos]

Really hahahaha, what did they say?

im joking haha

[Kelmendasi]

My yseq results should come out in a few more days. I'm so excited to see if I am J1 or not and to see what mtdna I have, I hope that I am J2b2 though ;)

[Kelmendasi]

im joking haha
Oh lol. It's believable though lol as in the Balkans anything can happen

[Lavrentis]

Bump.

It was an interesting thread, at least the important part. Seems that Albanians are more Slavic influenced than Greeks.

[Herr Abubu]

Bump.

It was an interesting thread, at least the important part. Seems that Albanians are more Slavic influenced than Greeks.

No, Southern Albanians are simply very Greek-like in their genetics. A high rate of the very Greek Y-DNA J2a as well as similar rates of Slavic Y-DNA R1a and I2.

[Bosniensis]

I2a1b-Dinaric are the Slavicized populace of Pannonia and Dalmatia.

Those are Slavicized people of Rome whom Diocletian moved from Rome to Singidunum, Salona, Spalato etc.. He did that cause he was born in Salona himself, he wanted more civilized populace.

After massacre of Avars, Romans were everywhere but not in the cities, when Slavs captured major cities they eventually mixed with Roman populace whom they called
Vlachs.

We have Romance I2a1b-Din in Romania, and Slavic I2a1b-Din in Serbia/Bosnia.

I see no other explanation.

Aromanians (those who descended from Roman soldiers) Have R1b Y-DNA and I2a1b-Din... they obviously never had anything to do with Slavs.

I2a1b-Din in southern Albania are Vlachs.

[Tschaikisten]

I2a1b-Dinaric are the Slavicized populace of Pannonia and Dalmatia.



:lol:

[Bosniensis]

:lol:

Pa i vlasi su I2a1b

[Tschaikisten]

Pa i vlasi su I2a1b

Middle ages Vlachs were social group, not national.

[Bosniensis]

Middle ages Vlachs were social group, not national.

Vlachs as a Polish guy explained are Romans.

He said that People from Rome and Italy are called Vlachs.

So if Polish Slavic people called Romans... Vlachs why do you think that Slavs who came in middle ages to
Serbia did not call Romans Vlachs... after all... in 5th century Western Balkans had 50.000 - 100.000 Roman inhabitants.

[Tschaikisten]

Vlachs as a Polish guy explained are Romans.


Middle ages Vlach are different kind of population than Roman citizens.

Even Slavs which migrated to the Balkans in the 7th century were known as Vlach is middle ages.

[Bosniensis]

Middle ages Vlach are different kind of population than Roman citizens.

Even Slavs which migrated to the Balkans in the 7th century were known as Vlach is middle ages.

So do you think that Romanians from Romania are Romans from Serbia?

Genetically, they are not much different from us.

I've scored 1. Romania in most of Gedmatch calculators

[Tschaikisten]

So do you think that Romanians from Romania are Romans from Serbia?


Romanised Slavs from the Carpatians.

[Bosniensis]

Romanised Slavs from the Carpatians.

OK,

I see them mixed with R1a (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine etc..) with I2a1b...

I've taught that R1a are Romanised Slavs while I2a1b = native balkan people.

But it's true I know very little of genetics and such ...

[Laberia]

Middle ages Vlachs were social group, not national.

Apart your scholars who for obvious reasons, can not taken in consideration, can you tell me a serious scholar who support your claim?

[Laberia]

Middle ages Vlach are different kind of population than Roman citizens.

Even Slavs which migrated to the Balkans in the 7th century were known as Vlach is middle ages.

Source?

[Bosniensis]

Source?

Laberia on my side.... for the first time ever.....

:cool:

[Dibran]

Great job Saf!
It's hard to see mine there, but anyways here is where I am :D
http://i64.tinypic.com/2415abk.jpg

My father is plotted slightly southeast of you, and me slightly south west towards Tuscan from you.

[Loki]

I2 is originally not Slavic, but indigenous in the Balkan.

[Scholarios]

I2 is originally not Slavic, but indigenous in the Balkan.

You keep repeating that for years without any proof except a eupedia map. the evidence is mounting against it, Loki. With all due respect, it's a lost cause.

[opsticle]

There is a big group of Bosnians who settled in Albania after anexion of Bosnia to the Austro-Hungarian empire. Could be it I guess. They were moving to Turkey but they stoped in Albania and never left it.

[Kelmendasi]

There is a big group of Bosnians who settled in Albania after anexion of Bosnia to the Austro-Hungarian empire. Could be it I guess. They were moving to Turkey but they stoped in Albania and never left it.
Could just be Slavs or Aromanians that picked up I2a1b from Slavs and had many sons

[Freeroostah]

I think those guys are responsible for that : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiounitai

[Loki]

For the last time.... I2a1 in the Balkans is NOT Slavic in origin... it is Paleolithic.


The highest frequency of I2a1 (I-P37) in the Balkans today was present before the Slavic expansion and is owed to indigenous tribes,[64] and is particularly suggested to have been common among the ancient Thracians in Romania. source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians)


Kushniarevich, A; Utevska, O; Chuhryaeva, M; Agdzhoyan, A; Dibirova, K; Uktveryte, I; Möls, M; Mulahasanovic, L; Pshenichnov, A; Frolova, S; Shanko, A; Metspalu, E; Reidla, M; Tambets, K; Tamm, E; Koshel, S; Zaporozhchenko, V; Atramentova, L; Kučinskas, V; Davydenko, O; Goncharova, O; Evseeva, I; Churnosov, M; Pocheshchova, E; Yunusbayev, B; Khusnutdinova, E; Marjanović, D; Rudan, P; Rootsi, S; et al. (2015). "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations: A Synthesis of Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosomal Data".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558026/

[Loki]

You keep repeating that for years without any proof except a eupedia map. the evidence is mounting against it, Loki. With all due respect, it's a lost cause.

Here I just posted evidence above, dude. Enjoy.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204408-Slavic-I2a1-in-southern-Albania&p=4942718&viewfull=1#post4942718

[Bosniensis]

For the last time.... I2a1 in the Balkans is NOT Slavic in origin... it is Paleolithic.


The highest frequency of I2a1 (I-P37) in the Balkans today was present before the Slavic expansion and is owed to indigenous tribes,[64] and is particularly suggested to have been common among the ancient Thracians in Romania. source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians)


Kushniarevich, A; Utevska, O; Chuhryaeva, M; Agdzhoyan, A; Dibirova, K; Uktveryte, I; Möls, M; Mulahasanovic, L; Pshenichnov, A; Frolova, S; Shanko, A; Metspalu, E; Reidla, M; Tambets, K; Tamm, E; Koshel, S; Zaporozhchenko, V; Atramentova, L; Kučinskas, V; Davydenko, O; Goncharova, O; Evseeva, I; Churnosov, M; Pocheshchova, E; Yunusbayev, B; Khusnutdinova, E; Marjanović, D; Rudan, P; Rootsi, S; et al. (2015). "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations: A Synthesis of Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosomal Data".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558026/

1850 Latin speakers in Serbia 120.000 (Vlachs)

Of those 120.000 at least 80% got assimilated into Serbs.

Can you imagine how many Thracians have been assimilated into Slavic populace from 500 A.D. to 2000 A.D. (1500 years)

Yet people can't believe the fact that Western Balkans was extremely Latin oriented region.

Of course those assimilated Latins (Thracians, Illyrians) are no other people than Balkan Vlachs (Serbs, Romanians, Bosnians) etc... and they are I2a1b people

[Kelmendasi]

For the last time.... I2a1 in the Balkans is NOT Slavic in origin... it is Paleolithic.


The highest frequency of I2a1 (I-P37) in the Balkans today was present before the Slavic expansion and is owed to indigenous tribes,[64] and is particularly suggested to have been common among the ancient Thracians in Romania. source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians)


Kushniarevich, A; Utevska, O; Chuhryaeva, M; Agdzhoyan, A; Dibirova, K; Uktveryte, I; Möls, M; Mulahasanovic, L; Pshenichnov, A; Frolova, S; Shanko, A; Metspalu, E; Reidla, M; Tambets, K; Tamm, E; Koshel, S; Zaporozhchenko, V; Atramentova, L; Kučinskas, V; Davydenko, O; Goncharova, O; Evseeva, I; Churnosov, M; Pocheshchova, E; Yunusbayev, B; Khusnutdinova, E; Marjanović, D; Rudan, P; Rootsi, S; et al. (2015). "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations: A Synthesis of Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosomal Data".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558026/
The I2a1b in the Balkans isn't native balkan in origin this is an established fact proven by recent studies on STR/SNP diversity and ancient DNA. One reason why the I2a1b clade found in South Slavs can't be native in origin is due to diversity, the clades found in South Slavs lack diversity suggesting that the haplogroup didn't have an expansion from the Balkan region as if it did there would be a high diversity of SNPs, studies show that the highest diversity is actually in between Poland and Ukraine which suggests an expansion from there and the studies show that the time of these expansions could be during the early medieval era. Another reason why it can't be native is due to ancient DNA samples, the ancient samples from the Balkans were only I2a2a and I2a1a when it came to I2 meaning that no I2a1b was found but I2a1b has been found across NW Europe in Germany and Scandinavia for example, one of the Motala SHG samples from Sweden was in fact I2a1b-L147.2 which is also known as I2a-Din suggesting that it probably has origin there and later moved into east Europe where it then began to split into various clades including the clades found in east Europe/South Slavs. Another reason to why I2a1b most likely has NW European origin is due to the oldest I2a1b samples being found there and due to the brother clade of I2a-Din being found almost exclusively in NW Europe and with high diversity there iirc. The sources you posted are pretty old and have been disproved by more recent studies

[Kelmendasi]

The native Balkan theory which is now obsolete was always flawed as it was only based on geographical frequencies which is wrong as frequencies of haplogroups can easily change with certain breeding biases where a certain Ydna carrier has more sons than the others and thus replacing the rest, this is what happened with Basques as originally they weren't mainly R1b since they aren't IE but due to certain IE people entering the Basque gene pool and producing more sons than the natives allowed them to gain the higher frequency in terms of haplogroups

[Loki]

The I2a1b in the Balkans isn't native balkan in origin this is an established fact proven by recent studies on STR/SNP diversity and ancient DNA. One reason why the I2a1b clade found in South Slavs can't be native in origin is due to diversity, the clades found in South Slavs lack diversity suggesting that the haplogroup didn't have an expansion from the Balkan region as if it did there would be a high diversity of SNPs, studies show that the highest diversity is actually in between Poland and Ukraine which suggests an expansion from there and the studies show that the time of these expansions could be during the early medieval era. Another reason why it can't be native is due to ancient DNA samples, the ancient samples from the Balkans were only I2a2a and I2a1a when it came to I2 meaning that no I2a1b was found but I2a1b has been found across NW Europe in Germany and Scandinavia for example, one of the Motala SHG samples from Sweden was in fact I2a1b-L147.2 which is also known as I2a-Din suggesting that it probably has origin there and later moved into east Europe where it then began to split into various clades including the clades found in east Europe/South Slavs. Another reason to why I2a1b most likely has NW European origin is due to the oldest I2a1b samples being found there and due to the brother clade of I2a-Din being found almost exclusively in NW Europe and with high diversity there iirc. The sources you posted are pretty old and have been disproved by more recent studies

I really have to *facepalm* at this. And no, the above peer-reviewed study is NOT flawed, it is accepted by all who DON'T have an ideological interest that blinds their objective judgement. Even Wikipedia accepts it. You basically think you know better than these scientists who have confirmed this.

[Loki]

The native Balkan theory which is now obsolete was always flawed as it was only based on geographical frequencies which is wrong as frequencies of haplogroups can easily change with certain breeding biases where a certain Ydna carrier has more sons than the others and thus replacing the rest, this is what happened with Basques as originally they weren't mainly R1b since they aren't IE but due to certain IE people entering the Basque gene pool and producing more sons than the natives allowed them to gain the higher frequency in terms of haplogroups

No, it is not "obsolete", and has never been obsolete. The "I2a1-is-Slavic" mantra has been flawed, and erroneous from the start. I told you guys long ago, nobody wanted to believe me. Now I actually show you studies confirming this, and still you don't want to believe. Why not? Because your argument is ideological, not scientific reality.

[Kelmendasi]

I really have to *facepalm* at this. And no, the above peer-reviewed study is NOT flawed, it is accepted by all who DON'T have an ideological interest that blinds their objective judgement. Even Wikipedia accepts it. You basically think you know better than these scientists who have confirmed this.
Ummm no, modern day geneticists don’t agree with the Balkan theory as its outdated and I bet you didnt get what I posted. And no I don’t think I know better im just saying what recent studies are showing. I wouldn’t even mind it if I2a1b was native so no I’m not blinded by ideological interests. Im still waiting for you to say how I2a1b is native. Even Serbs from the Serbian DNA project and Eupedia acknowledge its non-Balkan origin https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1b

[Kelmendasi]

No, it is not "obsolete", and has never been obsolete. The "I2a1-is-Slavic" mantra has been flawed, and erroneous from the start. I told you guys long ago, nobody wanted to believe me. Now I actually show you studies confirming this, and still you don't want to believe. Why not? Because your argument is ideological, not scientific reality.
I just told you, using evidence from recent studies. Can you give a scientific explanation to how it’s native Balkan? Also please find a study from 2017 which says its native. And if possible take a quote from your study which says it’s native

[Loki]

I just told you, using evidence from recent studies. Can you give a scientific explanation to how it’s native Balkan? Also please find a study from 2017 which says its native. And if possible take a quote from your study which says it’s native

https://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Blank+_49e657e4396a7fbbf098ef0d8b153a48.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/terraria/images/3/3b/Mega_Facepalm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120128093149&path-prefix=ru

http://megalawlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/funny-epic-facepalm-pictures-pics-megalawlz-lol.jpg

https://assets.dnainfo.com/photo/2017/8/1502465669-306812/larger.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

[IM]https://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Blank+_49e657e4396a7fbbf098ef0d8b153a48.png[/IMG]

IMG]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/terraria/images/3/3b/Mega_Facepalm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120128093149&path-prefix=ru[/IMG]

[IMhttp://megalawlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/funny-epic-facepalm-pictures-pics-megalawlz-lol.jpg[/IMG]

[IG]https://assets.dnainfo.com/photo/2017/8/1502465669-306812/larger.jpg[/IMG]
Basically another way of saying that you don’t know and that you have no evidence to back up what you claim

[Loki]

Basically another way of saying that you don’t know and that you have no evidence to back up what you claim

No, just that I'm totally tired to keep repeating the truth to you, only for it to be trampled upon and denied. I have time and again backed up what I said with evidence. I have just posted more evidence in a peer-reviewed scientific study, which you have again rejected. And what are YOUR credentials? Believe what you want. It's your ideology.

[Kouros]

The I2a1b in the Balkans isn't native balkan in origin this is an established fact proven by recent studies on STR/SNP diversity and ancient DNA. One reason why the I2a1b clade found in South Slavs can't be native in origin is due to diversity, the clades found in South Slavs lack diversity suggesting that the haplogroup didn't have an expansion from the Balkan region as if it did there would be a high diversity of SNPs, studies show that the highest diversity is actually in between Poland and Ukraine which suggests an expansion from there and the studies show that the time of these expansions could be during the early medieval era. Another reason why it can't be native is due to ancient DNA samples, the ancient samples from the Balkans were only I2a2a and I2a1a when it came to I2 meaning that no I2a1b was found but I2a1b has been found across NW Europe in Germany and Scandinavia for example, one of the Motala SHG samples from Sweden was in fact I2a1b-L147.2 which is also known as I2a-Din suggesting that it probably has origin there and later moved into east Europe where it then began to split into various clades including the clades found in east Europe/South Slavs. Another reason to why I2a1b most likely has NW European origin is due to the oldest I2a1b samples being found there and due to the brother clade of I2a-Din being found almost exclusively in NW Europe and with high diversity there iirc. The sources you posted are pretty old and have been disproved by more recent studies

You speak of I2a1b in this post. Are there any other I2 clades in balkans? And what are their origin/spread?

[Loki]

It's a nonsense. All I2 clades in the Balkans are Paleolithic in origin, and predate the Slavic invasion by a long shot. Slavs brought R1a to the region.

[Kelmendasi]

You speak of I2a1b in this post. Are there any other I2 clades in balkans? And what are their origin/spread?
Yh, I2a2a-Z161 which was found in the WHG of Serbia although today is found mainly among Germanic peoples, I2a2a-L699 which was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria some suggest it to have some link to the Yamna via some WHGs who got assimilated, I2a1a this haplogroup was also found in the WHG of Serbia iirc like other I2 Clare’s it is WHG in origin but was assimilated by Neolithic cultures which in this case was the Cardial ware culture and finally there is I2a1b-L161.1 which is the brother clade of I2a-Din it is almost only found in NW Europe and was found in many WHG samples it is found in small frequencies in Albanians and few other Balkanites although it is most probably of Germanic origin in them

[Kelmendasi]

No, just that I'm totally tired to keep repeating the truth to you, only for it to be trampled upon and denied. I have time and again backed up what I said with evidence. I have just posted more evidence in a peer-reviewed scientific study, which you have again rejected. And what are YOUR credentials? Believe what you want. It's your ideology.
Lol ok...

[Scholarios]

Loki simply can't see the forest for the trees on this one. He is like this eupedia group and think the word "Paleolithic" is deeply meaningful. Anyways. tiresome.

[Jana]

It's a nonsense. All I2 clades in the Balkans are Paleolithic in origin, and predate the Slavic invasion by a long shot. Slavs brought R1a to the region.

LOL

[Vlatko Vukovic]

It's a nonsense. All I2 clades in the Balkans are Paleolithic in origin, and predate the Slavic invasion by a long shot. Slavs brought R1a to the region.

Incorrect. So what haplogroups were Bastarnae?

[Bosniensis]

Incorrect. So what haplogroups were Bastarnae?

R1a or R1b of course.

People like you can't comprehend the fact that people from Bosnia, Bulgaria, Romania ruled the region's all up to Finland then got destroyed by R1a and R1b who came from Asia.

I2 was formed in Serbia (Core I2) then conquered everything North of Greece.

Before R1 invasions I2 was the primary Haplogroup in Europe and in Formed on Western Balkans.

I2a1b people are remenants of the remenants ...

I2 and I1 should be protected by UNESCO xD

[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1a or R1b of course.

Better read this.

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=166.0


got destroyed by R1a and R1b who came from Asia.

R1a is formed in Eurasia.

[Kelmendasi]

I don’t understand why the title of the thread was changed to “Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in South Albania” when it clearly isn’t

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I don’t understand why the title of the thread was changed to “Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in South Albania” when it clearly isn’t

Maybe becouse someone is butthurt about his own origin and started to think that it is indogeneous.

[Kelmendasi]

R1a or R1b of course.

People like you can't comprehend the fact that people from Bosnia, Bulgaria, Romania ruled the region's all up to Finland then got destroyed by R1a and R1b who came from Asia.

I2 was formed in Serbia (Core I2) then conquered everything North of Greece.

Before R1 invasions I2 was the primary Haplogroup in Europe and in Formed on Western Balkans.

I2a1b people are remenants of the remenants ...

I2 and I1 should be protected by UNESCO xD
I2 most probably originated from I people in around west Europe as the oldest I2 sample is from Palaeolithic Switzerland

[Kelmendasi]

Maybe becouse someone is butthurt about his own origin and started to think that it is indogeneous.
Loki changed it even though he is E-V13, idk why people still persist on I2a1b in the Balkans being native when every possible piece of evidence shown today debunks it

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Loki changed it even though he is E-V13, idk why people still persist on I2a1b in the Balkans being native when every possible piece of evidence shown today debunks it

Maybe some clades, but most of them are not indeed.

[Kelmendasi]

Maybe some clades, but most of them are not indeed.
The classes carried by South Slavs arent native. The only type of I2a1b which could be found in WHG samples from the Balkans is I2-L161.1 which is the brother clade of I2a-Din and they split off from I2a1b around NW Europe

[The Illyrian Warrior]

I2a2 was/is indigenous marker, I2a1 however is new as it came during Slavic expansion in Balkans, Loki should revise his position on this.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The classes carried by South Slavs arent native. The only type of I2a1b which could be found in WHG samples from the Balkans is I2-L161.1 which is the brother clade of I2a-Din and they split off from I2a1b around NW Europe

Yep, bu then we have a question who was these I2a1b which have modern Slavs, since it's proved they weren't in the Pripyat area, like we thought before.

[Kelmendasi]

I2a2 was/is indigenous marker, I2a1 however is new as it came during Slavic expansion in Balkans, Loki should revise his position on this.
Exactly. I2a2a1 was the main Ydna found among Balkan WHG, I think there could be some native I2a1 as well such as I2a1a and perhaps I2a1-L161.1 but I2a1-Din for sure isn’t native

[Kelmendasi]

Yep, bu then we have a question who was these I2a1b which have modern Slavs, since it's proved they weren't in the Pripyat area, like we thought before.
The I2a1b in Slavs originally came from the Hunter-Gatheres of NW Europe so it migrated east into east Europe, I would say that the expansion of I2a1b-Din into the Balkans occurred around Poland or Ukraine

[Jana]

Yep, bu then we have a question who was these I2a1b which have modern Slavs, since it's proved they weren't in the Pripyat area, like we thought before.
Maybe they weren't there in past, but they are now :)

Modern Slavic men in Pripyat area are around 20%+ I2-dinaric, higher concentration than usual among northern Slavs.

[Scholarios]

I2a2 was/is indigenous marker, I2a1 however is new as it came during Slavic expansion in Balkans, Loki should revise his position on this.

He is still stuck in 2013 and thinks he's trolling with this stuff. Sad part is he doesn't even know this forum just degraded to almost totally meaningless pop culture memes and no one cares anyways.

[Barbylion]

Is there any explanation for why this haplogroup reaches such high percentages in southern Albania?

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

I would think that its the leftovers from Kutmichevitsa Slavs

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite-avtohtonen%20-1.gif

Either that or its somehow native?

There is very few I2a1 in Albania.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The I2a1b in Slavs originally came from the Hunter-Gatheres of NW Europe so it migrated east into east Europe, I would say that the expansion of I2a1b-Din into the Balkans occurred around Poland or Ukraine

That would place I2a-Din somewhere near Pripyat, but as i know it's debunked and outdated. Now there is a theory that it wasn't a part of Slavic ethnogenesis at the beginnings, but later. I would say more it comes from Bastarns!

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Maybe they weren't there in past, but they are now :)

Modern Slavic men in Pripyat area are around 20%+ I2-dinaric, higher concentration than usual among northern Slavs.

I know about now, but i wonder what was before...

Slavic archeological cultures are complicated story, therefore we can't say anything for sure. Also that I2a-Din wasn't part of Zarubintsy culture.

[Kelmendasi]

That would place I2a-Din somewhere near Pripyat, but as i know it's debunked and outdated. Now there is a theory that it wasn't a part of Slavic ethnogenesis at the beginnings, but later. I would say more it comes from Bastarns!
I would say I2a1b-Din was more west than Pripyat, there is a chance of Slavs absorbing I2a1b-Din from Germanic people’s early on

[Scholarios]

That would place I2a-Din somewhere near Pripyat, but as i know it's debunked and outdated. Now there is a theory that it wasn't a part of Slavic ethnogenesis at the beginnings, but later. I would say more it comes from Bastarns!

judging by slavonic placenames in greece and albania, i suspect an origin more precisely at western poland and moravia. Although Based on current distribution though, the odds of it being swept up in migration era movements is tempting to believe.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I would say I2a1b-Din was more west than Pripyat, there is a chance of Slavs absorbing I2a1b-Din from Germanic people’s early on

Bastarnae are good candidates for such one! They're classified as Celto-Germanic, but perhaps they were an individual community once... It's not certain.

[Bosniensis]

I would say I2a1b-Din was more west than Pripyat, there is a chance of Slavs absorbing I2a1b-Din from Germanic people’s early on

West Balkan Vlachs.. who got Latin language from Romans and were Roman themselves are predominantly I2a1b CTS 10228

Now Latin language was official on Western Balkans up to 6th century even if Western Court of Empire died in Dalmatia under Julius Nepos, and you are telling me
that Slavs came in 4th century and learned Latin language then .. they had to learn Slavic language all over again?

Doesn't make any sense.

IF I2a1b people on Western Balkans knew Latin in 2nd,3rd,4th century A.D. then of course they are NATIVE and non-Slavic.

In 1850 A.D. Serbia had 120.000 Latin speakers, while in 8th-10th century Latin speakers were majority and majority were I2a1b.

Look at Romania, 28% (Majority) are I2a1b, rest goes to R1a, and minority to others.... do you think that R1a were Latin speakers? Lol.

All those Latin speakers came from Roman Empire and had a Roman Citizenship.

R1b people who nowdays rule Italy.. those people of course are not Italians, even Romans recognized that in 10th century when they declared so.

[Kelmendasi]

West Balkan Vlachs.. who got Latin language from Romans and were Roman themselves are predominantly I2a1b CTS 10228

Now Latin language was official on Western Balkans up to 6th century even if Western Court of Empire died in Dalmatia under Julius Nepos, and you are telling me
that Slavs came in 4th century and learned Latin language then .. they had to learn Slavic language all over again?

Doesn't make any sense.

IF I2a1b people on Western Balkans knew Latin in 2nd,3rd,4th century A.D. then of course they are NATIVE and non-Slavic.

In 1850 A.D. Serbia had 120.000 Latin speakers, while in 8th-10th century Latin speakers were majority and majority were I2a1b.

Look at Romania, 28% (Majority) are I2a1b, rest goes to R1a, and minority to others.... do you think that R1a were Latin speakers? Lol.

All those Latin speakers came from Roman Empire and had a Roman Citizenship.

R1b people who nowdays rule Italy.. those people of course are not Italians, even Romans recognized that in 10th century when they declared so.
Vlachs are just Latin speaking people from that region so they could be Latin speaking Slavs, Latin speaking Albanians, Latin speaking Greeks etc so their genetics depends on their region, in Albania they closely resemble Albanians and are mainly a mix of J2b2 and R1b-BY611 suggesting that they are probably just Albanians who took up Latin. Romanians are heavily Slavicized genetically and their I2a1b is from Slavs and increased in numbers due to better breeding chances. Romans themselves were most probably mainly R1b-U152

[Bosniensis]

Vlachs are just Latin speaking people from that region so they could be Latin speaking Slavs, Latin speaking Albanians, Latin speaking Greeks etc so their genetics depends on their region, in Albania they closely resemble Albanians and are mainly a mix of J2b2 and R1b-BY611 suggesting that they are probably just Albanians who took up Latin. Romanians are heavily Slavicized genetically and their I2a1b is from Slavs and increased in numbers due to better breeding chances. Romans themselves were most probably mainly R1b-U152

Vlachs were speaking Latin through many many generations.

I ask you a simple question:

From WHO Vlachs (I2a1b people) learned Latin language ?

If Slavs came in 6th why would they Learn LATIN when we see that Vlachs have been Slavicized?

Also Vlachs could NOT speak Slavic language.

Please explain...

[Kelmendasi]

Vlachs were speaking Latin through many many generations.

I ask you a simple question:

From WHO Vlachs (I2a1b people) learned Latin language ?

If Slavs came in 6th why would they Learn LATIN when we see that Vlachs have been Slavicized?

Also Vlachs could NOT speak Slavic language.

Please explain...
Vlachs aren't I2a1b people, as I said before their haplogroups depend on the region they are from. They learnt Latin via the Roman empire and it's influence but the fact that they don't have the R1b clade found among the Italic people suggests that they aren't the direct descendant of Romans themselves. They could easily adopt a Vlach/Latin identity for various of reasons such as an attempt to integrate into a local community if that community has a majority Vlach population or because Latin was a more appealing language such was the case for the Ostrogoths who adopted Latin when they established their kingdom and are believed to be the source of the I1-Z63 in the Balkans. Vlachs to this day speak Slavic in certain areas an example of this are certain tribes who identify as Serb today such as the Krici

[Bosniensis]

Vlachs aren't I2a1b people, as I said before their haplogroups depend on the region they are from. They learnt Latin via the Roman empire and it's influence but the fact that they don't have the R1b clade found among the Italic people suggests that they aren't the direct descendant of Romans themselves. They could easily adopt a Vlach/Latin identity for various of reasons such as an attempt to integrate into a local community if that community has a majority Vlach population or because Latin was a more appealing language such was the case for the Ostrogoths who adopted Latin when they established their kingdom and are believed to be the source of the I1-Z63 in the Balkans. Vlachs to this day speak Slavic in certain areas an example of this are certain tribes who identify as Serb today such as the Krici

All Vlachs are predominantly I2a1b People.. go check it yourself.

Vlachs spoke Latin language in 5th century not Romance language, also they spoke Latin when modern Italians spoke Germanic languages.

Lombards, Normans and others (who live in Italy) adopted Romance language in 10th century, standardized in 12th, while Vlachs (that were encountered by Slavs) existed and spoke Latin in 5th century.

Slavs had special agreements with Vlachs in 6th century, Vlachs had their own local government and everything but were subjugated and governed by Slavs.

But you are entitled to your own opinion, I disagree with you.

Also Vlachs are Romans, Poles even today call people of Rome = Vlachs.

[Kelmendasi]

All Vlachs are predominantly I2a1b People.. go check it yourself.

Vlachs spoke Latin language in 5th century not Romance language, also they spoke Latin when modern Italians spoke Germanic languages.

Lombards, Normans and others (who live in Italy) adopted Romance language in 10th century, standardized in 12th, while Vlachs (that were encountered by Slavs) existed and spoke Latin in 5th century.

Slavs had special agreements with Vlachs in 6th century, Vlachs had their own local government and everything but were subjugated and governed by Slavs.

But you are entitled to your own opinion, I disagree with you.

Also Vlachs are Romans, Poles even today call people of Rome = Vlachs.
No they aren't, the Vlachs of Albania and Macedonia were mainly J2b2 and R1b-BY611. If Vlachs were Roman settlers then R1b-U152 would have been a common haplogroup in them but it isn't, Vlachs aren't an ethnic group it's just a term for Latin speaking peoples in the Balkans

[Bosniensis]

No they aren't, the Vlachs of Albania and Macedonia were mainly J2b2 and R1b-BY611. If Vlachs were Roman settlers then R1b-U152 would have been a common haplogroup in them but it isn't, Vlachs aren't an ethnic group it's just a term for Latin speaking peoples in the Balkans

So what, J2 people are Anatolian Hellenes (mostly) and are recognized as Ionian Greeks so it is logical that they are designated as "Vlachs".
Even Greeks were designated as Vlachs by Slavs. Everyone who spoke Latin or Greek was "Vlach" to Slavs.

Only J2, I2,EV13, G2 people were Native Europeans... R1b, R1a were minority, non-existant up to 5th century A.D.

Germanic people are Majority R1b. Germanic people were who are nowdays majority in France, Italy, England, Germany were considered as completely Alien people in Europe.

You know what your problem is?

You can't believe that a Roman People and Civilization could be destroyed up to such magnitude that only Romania, Western Balkans is what is left of their civilization and people.

But it is. Modern Europe has nothing to do with Old Europe.

Celts were I2, Italy was I2, J2, G2..etc... R people were minority or tribes that were fighting Rome.

Even those timeframes you are quoting "10.000 year old, 5.000 year old" all incorrect... Noah lived 6000 years ago not 30.000 years ago.

But how can you learn about Euroepans when Europeans have been destroyed? You think that Italians, French will tell you what happened?

The last 500 years, everything has been done to erase Roman Hellenic civilization from existance... "byzantium" name, Roman historians proclaimed lunatics etc..

This is my firm belief, and you will see in 20, 30 years... that everything is a lie..... Conquerors write and invent history, not loosers.

You are free to belive as I say whatever you want... I won't.. I have my opinion and I think I am right.

[Kelmendasi]

So what, J2 people are Anatolian Hellenes (mostly) and are recognized as Ionian Greeks so it is logical that they are designated as "Vlachs".
Even Greeks were designated as Vlachs by Slavs. Everyone who spoke Latin or Greek was "Vlach" to Slavs.

Only J2, I2,EV13, G2 people were Native Europeans... R1b, R1a were minority, non-existant up to 5th century A.D.

Germanic people are Majority R1b. Germanic people were who are nowdays majority in France, Italy, England, Germany were considered as completely Alien people in Europe.

You know what your problem is?

You can't believe that a Roman People and Civilization could be destroyed up to such magnitude that only Romania, Western Balkans is what is left of their civilization and people.

But it is. Modern Europe has nothing to do with Old Europe.

Celts were I2, Italy was I2, J2, G2..etc... R people were minority or tribes that were fighting Rome.

Even those timeframes you are quoting "10.000 year old, 5.000 year old" all incorrect... Noah lived 6000 years ago not 30.000 years ago.

But how can you learn about Euroepans when Europeans have been destroyed? You think that Italians, French will tell you what happened?

The last 500 years, everything has been done to erase Roman Hellenic civilization from existance... "byzantium" name, Roman historians proclaimed lunatics etc..

This is my firm belief, and you will see in 20, 30 years... that everything is a lie..... Conquerors write and invent history, not loosers.

You are free to belive as I say whatever you want... I won't.. I have my opinion and I think I am right.
I know that your trolling man. Anyways the J2 that Vlachs have is in no way Hellenic, it's Illyrian/Albanian as it's J2b2. Also if R1b and R1a aren't European then I guess G, J and E aren't either.