Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

[Leto]

By the way, why haven't the Lithuanian pops by Piotr been added yet? A very solid academic dataset. And I'm sure he filtered out all the outliers and dubious samples.

[Peterski]

By the way, why haven't the Lithuanian pops by Piotr been added yet? A very solid academic dataset. And I'm sure he filtered out all the outliers and dubious samples.

Where did I post these averages ???

[Jana]

German and Austrian update is here!! :)

Please delete all German averages as well as Austrian and German general averages and replace them with these:



Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.2 3,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0 .87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1. 02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07
Austrian_Lower_Austria,37.42,24.75,17.87,8.14,7.73 ,1.585,0.97,0.24,0.425,0.225,0.64,0,0
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.7 9,0.31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0 .20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07
Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria,38.78,27.33,14.66,6.69,9.37,1.49,0.5 8,0.18,0.23,0.31,0.35,0.03,0.00
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16, 0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82 ,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.8 4,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Brandenburg_Outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.39,24.70,14.56,6.30,11 .55,0.44,1.22,0.15,0.32,0.75,0.39,0.13,0.13
German_Bavaria_Proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39, 2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_Farther_Pomerania,40.04,36.96,9.53,5.79,3.2 5,1.31,1.30,0.16,0.03,0.33,0.36,0.69,0.26
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68, 0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.34,27.83,10.89,5.58,2 .87,0.29,1.79,0.52,0.16,0.12,0.52,0.08,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3 .82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0 ,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1 .49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.6 2,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27, 0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7. 95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1 .03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.2 7,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.2 7,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9. 55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19, 1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0, 0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81 ,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
German_West_Prussia,36.43,38.85,11.22,5.87,4.80,0. 17,0.81,0.00,0.71,0.44,0.36,0.00,0.32
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06

[J. Ketch]

German and Austrian update is here!! :)

Please delete all German averages as well as Austrian and German general averages and replace them with these:



Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.2 3,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16, 0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27, 0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1 .03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7. 95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82 ,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.39,24.70,14.56,6.30,11 .55,0.44,1.22,0.15,0.32,0.75,0.39,0.13,0.13
German_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68, 0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0 .20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1. 02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.7 9,0.31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0 .87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52 ,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0
Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12, 0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
German_Farther_Pomerania,40.04,36.96,9.53,5.79,3.2 5,1.31,1.30,0.16,0.03,0.33,0.36,0.69,0.26
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_West_Prussia,36.43,38.85,11.22,5.87,4.80,0. 17,0.81,0.00,0.71,0.44,0.36,0.00,0.32
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39, 2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0 ,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0, 0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1 .49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.2 7,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19, 1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.8 4,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9. 55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.2 7,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.34,27.83,10.89,5.58,2 .87,0.29,1.79,0.52,0.16,0.12,0.52,0.08,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3 .82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81 ,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.6 2,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13
How did you calculate the German average? Mine wasn't too far off, a bit more Western. And how many kits for each average? You can PM if you want, just curious which ones are more solid and which less.

[vbnetkhio]

German and Austrian update is here!! :)

Please delete all German averages as well as Austrian and German general averages and replace them with these:



Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.2 3,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16, 0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27, 0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1 .03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7. 95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82 ,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.39,24.70,14.56,6.30,11 .55,0.44,1.22,0.15,0.32,0.75,0.39,0.13,0.13
German_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68, 0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0 .20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1. 02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.7 9,0.31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0 .87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52 ,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0
Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12, 0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
German_Farther_Pomerania,40.04,36.96,9.53,5.79,3.2 5,1.31,1.30,0.16,0.03,0.33,0.36,0.69,0.26
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_West_Prussia,36.43,38.85,11.22,5.87,4.80,0. 17,0.81,0.00,0.71,0.44,0.36,0.00,0.32
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39, 2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0 ,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0, 0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1 .49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.2 7,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19, 1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.8 4,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9. 55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.2 7,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.34,27.83,10.89,5.58,2 .87,0.29,1.79,0.52,0.16,0.12,0.52,0.08,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3 .82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81 ,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.6 2,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13

PCA:
https://i.imgur.com/VNSJ0k3.png
the four corners represent, roughly:
GermanicBaltic

CelticSlavic

[Jana]

How did you calculate the German average? Mine wasn't too far off, a bit more Western. And how many kits for each average? You can PM if you want, just curious which ones are more solid and which less.

No problem, ofc! For Germany and Austria we took 1939 census. Austria was calculated according to population percentage of each "state" excluding Vienna (too many foreigners and people from all over there) and excluding eg. Slovenian/Croatian/Hungarian minorities in Carinthia, Burgenland etc. For Voralberg as only state we lack samples from we used SW Germans (they are Allemanic speakers)

For Germany it was more complicated because of sheer size. We divided Germany into 4 genetic quadrants (including Sudeten Germans, Prussia etc), and selected one most representative average for each quadrant (in our estimation), and than we calculated how much percentage of total population each quadrant had. Berlin was included into NE Germany btw.

Than final average was weighted. We used: southern Lower Saxony average for NW quadrant, south Hesse for SW quadrant (which includes Bavaria btw), Saxony for SE quadrant and Farther Pomerania for NE quadrant.
Polish population in Prussia was excluded.

https://scontent.fzag3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/271536218_513125769989395_2019648704729751161_n.pn g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_eui2=AeHXLgIUuJgFPsG-lRuxy3MqvCYDmz5uQw68JgObPm5DDuxe3JcpLfG2HNQ8yArK-eiwimFvQvYgw1v46GJwQP_G&_nc_ohc=FNB-oEx6W6AAX--P8io&_nc_ht=scontent.fzag3-1.fna&oh=03_AVIdo9mxkvFGTt8ZoLVaxbIFM42mJYT2DLKp526vE5QC cQ&oe=6208E755

(without Austria)

[Jana]

Yes, your average was very good! Pretty better than old Austrian one which was academic.

As for sample size, it was 6 samples for Saxony, 3 for Lower Saxony south, 9 for south Hesse and for east Pomerania 4.
We could have used Westphalia for NW for example, because it has 9 samples and it's very populated region but opted for south of Lower Saxony because it's likely more representative for NW quadrant (Westphalia is on it's south), etc.

So we didn't necessary use selected averages with most samples but one that was kind of a mid point for each genetic quadrant.

[Ion Basescul]

German and Austrian update is here!!


Please delete all German averages as well as Austrian and German general averages and replace them with these:




Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.2 3,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16, 0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27, 0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1 .03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7. 95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82 ,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.39,24.70,14.56,6.30,11 .55,0.44,1.22,0.15,0.32,0.75,0.39,0.13,0.13
German_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68, 0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0 .20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1. 02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.7 9,0.31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0 .87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Upper_Austria,41.93,23.93,16.96,8.73,6.52 ,1.43,0,0.22,0,0,0.16,0.1,0
Austrian_Lower_Austria,35.32,24.04,19.78,9.1,9.12, 0.4,1.02,0,0,0.32,0.89,0,0
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
German_Farther_Pomerania,40.04,36.96,9.53,5.79,3.2 5,1.31,1.30,0.16,0.03,0.33,0.36,0.69,0.26
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_West_Prussia,36.43,38.85,11.22,5.87,4.80,0. 17,0.81,0.00,0.71,0.44,0.36,0.00,0.32
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39, 2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0 ,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0, 0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1 .49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.2 7,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19, 1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.8 4,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9. 55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.2 7,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.34,27.83,10.89,5.58,2 .87,0.29,1.79,0.52,0.16,0.12,0.52,0.08,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3 .82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81 ,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.6 2,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13




Are we doing counties/provinces now? Because I can replace my averages for Moldova, Romania and Bulgaria with administrative divisions, if we are now deep diving into smaller regions.

[Jana]

Are we doing counties/provinces now? Because I can replace my averages for Moldova, Romania and Bulgaria with administrative divisions, if we are now deep diving into smaller regions.

Well, not really. Austria is divided by states, same for Germany unless there is genetic difference inside some states.

[Jana]

PCA:
https://i.imgur.com/VNSJ0k3.png
the four corners represent, roughly:
GermanicBaltic

CelticSlavic

Looks great, thanks! :)

[Jana]

For example, both of these averages are from same state (NRW), but genetically they are clearly different.

Distance to: German_North_Rhine

2.68694994 French_Northeast
2.95240580 Belgian
3.22003106 German_South_Hesse
3.41274083 Flemish
3.46075136 German_Baden-Württemberg
3.53605713 Pennsylvania_Dutch
3.62082863 French_Alsace
3.66415065 Austrian_Upper_Austria
3.75864337 German_Saarland
3.76350900 German_Lower/Middle_Franconia

Distance to: German_Westphalia

0.84338603 German_Lower_Saxony_South
2.21752114 Dutch
2.31177421 Dutch_Central
2.69479127 Dutch_North
2.87456084 German_Lower_Saxony_North
3.12795460 German_Schleswig-Holstein
3.30146937 English_North
3.46209474 Icelandic
3.53141615 English_Midlands
3.57891045 English

States which are genetically uniform like Baden-Württemberg have only one average. I think we are now clear about that.

[Jana]

@Lucas please move Afrikaner and Pennsylvania Dutch averages into existing new world spreadsheet! They are secondary populations originating from several regions and bad for modeling of Dutch/Germans in Europe. Thanks!

[J. Ketch]

@Lucas please move Afrikaner and Pennsylvania Dutch averages into existing new world spreadsheet! They are secondary populations originating from several regions and bad for modeling of Dutch/Germans in Europe. Thanks!
Fair enough for PA Dutch (and French Canadian) but I'm not sure if Europeans ever get modelled as Afrikaner, due to their SSA/non-Euro element. I maybe wrong though.

[rothaer]

Based on all this there is also this weighted average for Germans in the whole German Empire per beginning of 1939 plus Danzig plus Elsaß-Lothringen:

German(German_Empire_1939),41.60,27.86,13.88,6.21, 6.55,1.24,0.84,0.17,0.34,0.41,0.33,0.32,0.27

Distance to: German(German_Empire_1939)
1.98924609 German_North_Moravia
4.14270443 German_Bavaria_Lower/Middle_Franconia
4.16343608 Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria
4.19784469 German_Saxony
4.89083837 German_Saxony-Anhalt_South
5.22594489 German_North_Bohemia
5.30115082 German_Thuringia_Central
5.41957563 German_West_Bohemia
5.76295063 German_Brandenburg_Northwest
6.04795833 German_Bavaria_proper
6.42653095 German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz
6.62675637 German_Thuringia_East
6.82934111 German_Hither_Pomerania
6.90783613 German_North_Rhine
6.97392106 Austrian_LowerAustria
6.98266425 German_Baden-Württemberg
7.23902618 German_County_Glatz
7.34216589 German_South_Hesse
7.46479069 Austrian_Burgenland
7.48039437 German_North_Hesse
7.88053932 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
8.41215192 German_Lower_Saxony_South
8.61661186 German_Westphalia
8.76694360 Austrian_Styria
8.80835399 German_West_Mecklenburg

Out of the commonly known areas you can simplifying say that Franconia is closest to the pan German average. Simplifying, because Upper Franconia, that lacks a reference, will likely deviate somewhat from this Lower/Middle Franconian average.

[Jana]

^^^^and North Moravian Germans descend from Franconia too :)

[Jana]

BTW, this update was very significant, close to 60 new and verified kits with gedcomes and without foreign ancestry were added.

[rothaer]

^^^^and North Moravian Germans descend from Franconia too :)

This is actually true and likely part of the explanation.

[Dunai]

This new Austrian average seems to show that as previous speculations, they aren't in average that East-Central European shifted and more closer to Germans, while the old German average was surprisingly close to the new one:

Distance to: Austrian
3.12309142 Austrian(Old)
4.77140441 German_County_Glatz
4.86224228 German_Bavaria_proper
4.87351003 German_Bavarian_Swabia
5.05929837 German_Lower_Franconia
5.64447517 German_North_Bohemia
5.69019332 Austrian_Lower_Austria
6.11128464 French_Alsace
6.30177753 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
6.54740407 German_Central_Hesse
6.58522589 Swiss_German
6.68826584 German_Upper_Swabia
6.88986212 Austrian_Upper_Austria
7.02864140 German_North_Baden
7.21482502 German
7.65413614 German_South_Hesse
7.91537112 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.96273194 Swiss_French
8.28474502 German_Rhineland-Palatinate
8.30428203 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.32376718 German_North_Rhine
8.40613466 German_Saxony
8.52489883 Pennsylvania_Dutch
8.64046874 Hungarian
8.82998301 Slovene

Distance to: German
1.24494980 German(Old)

[Jana]

This new Austrian average seems to show that as previous speculations, they aren't in average that East-Central European shifted and more closer to Germans, while the old German average was surprisingly close to the new one:

Distance to: Austrian
3.12309142 Austrian(Old)
4.77140441 German_County_Glatz
4.86224228 German_Bavaria_proper
4.87351003 German_Bavarian_Swabia
5.05929837 German_Lower_Franconia
5.64447517 German_North_Bohemia
5.69019332 Austrian_Lower_Austria
6.11128464 French_Alsace
6.30177753 German_Ore_Mountains_Saxony
6.54740407 German_Central_Hesse
6.58522589 Swiss_German
6.68826584 German_Upper_Swabia
6.88986212 Austrian_Upper_Austria
7.02864140 German_North_Baden
7.21482502 German
7.65413614 German_South_Hesse
7.91537112 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.96273194 Swiss_French
8.28474502 German_Rhineland-Palatinate
8.30428203 German_Saxony-Anhalt_south
8.32376718 German_North_Rhine
8.40613466 German_Saxony
8.52489883 Pennsylvania_Dutch
8.64046874 Hungarian
8.82998301 Slovene

Distance to: German
1.24494980 German(Old)

That's because old German average was made by Creoda who weighted it and did a good job, while old Austrian average was academic probably from Vienna.

[Jana]

What surprised me the most is that NW quadrant where purest Germanic population lives was actually smallest in percentage in total German population (without Austria). NW genetic quadrant was less than 20% of total German population.

[rothaer]

For example, both of these averages are from same state (NRW), but genetically they are clearly different.

Distance to: German_North_Rhine

2.68694994 French_Northeast
2.95240580 Belgian
3.22003106 German_South_Hesse
3.41274083 Flemish
3.46075136 German_Baden-Württemberg
3.53605713 Pennsylvania_Dutch
3.62082863 French_Alsace
3.66415065 Austrian_Upper_Austria
3.75864337 German_Saarland
3.76350900 German_Lower/Middle_Franconia

Distance to: German_Westphalia

0.84338603 German_Lower_Saxony_South
2.21752114 Dutch
2.31177421 Dutch_Central
2.69479127 Dutch_North
2.87456084 German_Lower_Saxony_North
3.12795460 German_Schleswig-Holstein
3.30146937 English_North
3.46209474 Icelandic
3.53141615 English_Midlands
3.57891045 English

States which are genetically uniform like Baden-Württemberg have only one average. I think we are now clear about that.

As for North Rhine and Westphalia there was also a tribal division as Westphalians are Saxons and people from the North Rhine are Franks.

As for Baden-Württemberg it was a little surprise for me to see that there was no significant genetic difference even between North Baden and Upper Swabia, which are at the opposite ends of Baden-Württemberg. It was a bit of a pity to merge three regions with valuable separate data, but it was all the same so it seemed questionable to present them as three regions. On the other hand, now, with just one average for Baden-Württemberg, the data seem more coarse grained than it is.

[J. Ketch]

As for North Rhine and Westphalia there was also a tribal division as Westphalians are Saxons and people from the North Rhine are Franks.

Glad to hear it put in those terms. I love the thought that the clear genetic divide that still exists between Germanic speakers in West Germany/Benelux/England/Northern France is a Saxon/Frankish tribal divide.

[Peterski]

Good job Rothaer & Stearsolina!

[rothaer]

Glad to hear it put in those terms. I love the thought that the clear genetic divide that still exists between Germanic speakers in West Germany/Benelux/England/Northern France is a Saxon/Frankish tribal divide.

Not always but often a common language and even a dialect indicates that people have had a common contact for quite a while with each other. And that often implies a reproduction community and that in turn implies an equalizing of genetic differences by mixing, i. e. a genetic commonality. So I think that some degree of correlation between dialect and genetics is a plausible condition.

[Leto]

Where did I post these averages ???
Sorry, not by you but vbnetkhio. Though you are also aware of them and have the data.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353973-400-Lithuanian-Eurogenes-K13-results&highlight=Lithuanian

[Leto]

So the names have remained in English, not in German as promised.

[Jana]

So the names have remained in English, not in German as promised.

Well, other averages have English names too including Russian ones.

[Leto]

Well, other averages have English names too including Russian ones.
Yes, Russian is written in Cyrillic.
Anyway, no means no. By the way, none of those original samples were ever posted when I was posting the ones I found. I think posting German Gedmatch makes no sense anymore.

[Luke35]

Thank You! My German-American mother's results:

Distance to: Mr.G_mother
2.07708931 Flemish
2.49387249 Belgian
2.60931025 Dutch_South
2.69273096 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
3.26081278 Afrikaner
3.80889748 German_North_Rhine
4.12498485 French_Normandy
4.61559314 English_Southeast
4.73213482 German_Lower/Middle_Franconia
4.75646928 German_North_Hesse
4.99953998 French_Northwest
5.27050282 French_Northeast
5.31379337 English_Midlands
5.38855268 German
5.38925783 Austrian_Upper_Austria
5.55585277 English
5.63426126 Dutch
5.73979094 German_North_Moravia
5.77093580 German_South_Hesse
5.84968375 French_Brittany
5.92307353 German_Lower_Saxony_South
5.99088474 German_Baden-Württemberg
6.11247086 German_Westphalia
6.16031655 English_Southwest
6.19863695 French_Alsace

Target: Mr.G_mother
Distance: 0.3689% / 0.36892888 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.7 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
25.5 Flemish
13.3 German_Lower_Saxony_South
12.1 German_Thuringia_Central
5.7 Afrikaner
1.7 German_North_Moravia

[Ion Basescul]

Please replace Moldova South average for K13


Moldovan_South,21.78,28.89,15.87,9.76,18.84,2.00,0 .55,0.49,0.66,0.64,0.22,0.12,0.18

[J. Ketch]

So the names have remained in English, not in German as promised.
Who gives a rats, this is an English speaking forum, and more people would be familiar with the English names anyway.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

German and Austrian update is here!! :)

Please delete all German averages as well as Austrian and German general averages and replace them with these

European PCA

https://i.imgur.com/V61YQDm.png
https://i.imgur.com/dhNmeyI.png

Averages used


Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.2 3,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0 .87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1. 02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07
Austrian_Lower Austria,37.42,24.75,17.87,8.14,7.73,1.585,0.97,0.2 4,0.425,0.225,0.64,0,0
Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria,38.78,27.33,14.66,6.69,9.37,1.49,0.5 8,0.18,0.23,0.31,0.35,0.03,0.00
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.7 9,0.31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0 .20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16, 0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82 ,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.39,24.70,14.56,6.30,11 .55,0.44,1.22,0.15,0.32,0.75,0.39,0.13,0.13
German_Bavaria_proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.8 4,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39, 2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_Farther_Pomerania,40.04,36.96,9.53,5.79,3.2 5,1.31,1.30,0.16,0.03,0.33,0.36,0.69,0.26
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Hither_Pomerania,44.4,31.31,9.62,7.56,4.12, 0.7,0.43,0.31,0.88,0.2,0,0.48,0
German_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68, 0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.34,27.83,10.89,5.58,2 .87,0.29,1.79,0.52,0.16,0.12,0.52,0.08,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3 .82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0 ,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1 .49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.6 2,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27, 0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7. 95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1 .03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.2 7,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.2 7,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9. 55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19, 1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0, 0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0
German_West_Mecklenburg,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_West_Prussia,36.43,38.85,11.22,5.87,4.80,0. 17,0.81,0.00,0.71,0.44,0.36,0.00,0.32
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81 ,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
Swiss_German,40.15,22.01,17.27,6.58,10.31,1.90,0.0 8,0.28,0.25,0.52,0.29,0.29,0.09
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
Belarusian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44,0.97,0. 18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Belarusian_Minsk,27.19,49.58,9.18,4.63,4.58,0.53,1 .26,0.24,1.21,0.72,0.43,0.21,0.22
Belgian,45.20,22.22,15.56,5.69,7.34,1.11,0.97,0.27 ,0.10,0.54,0.43,0.35,0.15
Bosniak,25.73,35.04,14.18,8.58,12.19,1.26,0.98,0.3 1,0.62,0.60,0.25,0.16,0.10
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
Croat_East,26.84,34.60,14.13,8.26,12.31,1.43,0.22, 0.12,1.08,0.68,0.30,0.01,0.01
Croat_North,30.06,34.35,14.42,7.05,10.10,1.33,0.54 ,0.31,0.52,0.61,0.40,0.16,0.14
Croat_South,26.36,31.83,15.92,8.38,13.60,1.47,0.50 ,0.28,0.56,0.47,0.37,0.12,0.11
Croat_West,28.53,31.60,15.24,7.61,13.31,1.38,0.61, 0.38,0.36,0.38,0.40,0.13,0.07
Csángó-Ceangău,27.60,29.46,15.34,8.91,11.04,1.51,0.87,1.0 7,2.64,0.81,0.47,0.15,0.15
Czech,32.33,37.42,11.45,5.60,8.50,1.59,1.15,0.44,0 .51,0.91,0.00,0.05,0.06
Danish,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52,0.99,0.19, 0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Dutch,49.05,25.20,12.14,4.99,4.00,1.13,0.94,0.39,0 .51,0.60,0.42,0.26,0.29
Dutch_Central,49.66,25.31,11.58,4.87,3.73,1.33,0.9 3,0.45,0.47,0.65,0.47,0.23,0.27
Dutch_North,50.24,26.40,10.76,4.82,3.25,0.77,0.88, 0.36,0.55,0.70,0.49,0.31,0.42
Dutch_South,46.00,23.57,15.04,5.19,5.54,1.29,0.99, 0.39,0.52,0.51,0.28,0.33,0.29
English,49.68,23.44,13.70,5.62,3.96,0.71,1.03,0.15 ,0.29,0.57,0.39,0.21,0.17
English_Midlands,49.48,23.54,13.73,5.60,4.10,0.62, 1.10,0.19,0.23,0.51,0.41,0.24,0.20
English_North,50.43,23.89,13.25,5.51,3.41,0.67,1.0 0,0.11,0.29,0.60,0.40,0.19,0.18
English_Southeast,48.90,23.41,13.77,5.63,4.52,0.77 ,1.11,0.18,0.30,0.57,0.42,0.23,0.13
English_Southwest,50.08,22.98,14.31,5.42,3.64,0.62 ,1.08,0.14,0.22,0.66,0.46,0.17,0.16
Estonian,32.93,50.58,6.76,2.45,0.57,0.09,0.95,0.05 ,3.51,1.35,0.61,0.04,0.09
Finnish,34.17,47.69,4.43,2.21,0.65,0.42,0.53,0.96, 6.48,0.90,0.81,0.50,0.26
Finnish_Southwest,38.50,43.46,6.96,1.93,1.34,0.49, 0.69,0.10,4.96,1.10,0.25,0.14,0.08
Flemish,45.58,22.81,15.33,5.88,6.79,0.60,0.97,0.37 ,0.12,0.57,0.38,0.35,0.17
French_Alsace,40.65,22.72,16.81,6.48,9.58,1.60,0.3 9,0.47,0.25,0.36,0.27,0.16,0.26
French_Brittany,48.91,21.55,16.52,5.11,4.78,0.33,0 .87,0.09,0.18,1.01,0.07,0.39,0.16
French_Central,42.40,18.28,20.55,4.81,9.80,1.59,0. 49,0.26,0.36,0.46,0.37,0.38,0.24
French_Normandy,45.52,21.70,16.97,5.02,7.11,1.04,0 .63,0.22,0.85,0.40,0.17,0.05,0.28
French_Northeast,43.27,20.59,17.19,6.01,8.41,1.49, 0.81,0.36,0.38,0.48,0.30,0.27,0.43
French_Northwest,48.53,22.11,15.45,5.52,4.38,1.00, 1.19,0.25,0.31,0.59,0.29,0.22,0.17
Hungarian,30.43,32.58,14.23,7.16,10.42,1.28,0.9,0. 55,1.19,0.55,0.35,0.2,0.15
Hungarian_Alföld,29.33,33.01,14.59,7.21,10.63,1.26 ,0.68,0.67,1.28,0.62,0.39,0.2,0.11
Hungarian_North,30.35,35.36,13.29,6.2,10.12,0.75,1 .05,0.5,1.16,0.51,0.38,0.15,0.17
Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11, 7.29,9.79,1.37,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16
Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely,28.34,28.55,15.07,8 .19,12.8,1.37,1.03,0.76,2.28,0.74,0.37,0.2,0.13
Icelandic,51.20,26.73,10.31,6.30,1.57,0.78,0.83,0. 20,0.77,0.84,0.12,0.24,0.06
Irish,52.43,22.93,12.62,6.82,1.44,0.50,1.40,0.16,0 .28,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.13
Irish_Connacht,52.60,23.36,12.14,6.89,1.22,0.34,1. 65,0.08,0.25,0.85,0.21,0.18,0.13
Irish_Leinster,51.61,22.91,13.16,6.64,1.97,0.67,1. 13,0.26,0.13,0.77,0.37,0.17,0.14
Irish_Munster,53.00,23.03,12.32,6.73,1.37,0.36,1.3 5,0.16,0.24,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.15
Irish_Ulster,53.12,22.51,12.51,6.99,0.89,0.57,1.54 ,0.10,0.48,0.72,0.28,0.08,0.14
Italian_Aosta_Valley,39.39,15.81,22.37,7.56,12.42, 1.2,0.46,0.01,0,0.01,0.12,0.44,0.21
Italian_Friuli,32.26,16.88,20.62,7.19,18.53,2.99,0 .31,0.3,0.05,0.8,0.02,0.04,0.01
Italian_Trentino,33.67,17.74,23.27,5.53,17.18,1.61 ,0,0.16,0.12,0.22,0.31,0.16,0.03
Latvian,26.74,58.36,6.41,2.73,0.78,1.1,0.77,0.09,1 .43,0.73,0.32,0.33,0.22
Lemko_Poland,27.74,37.63,14.89,7.34,9.48,0.24,0.42 ,0.58,0.56,0.60,0.52,0.00,0.00
Lithuanian,28.87,53.90,7.17,3.91,1.48,0.76,1.34,0. 06,0.82,0.77,0.41,0.29,0.22
Moldovan_North,23.99,33.84,14.21,9.52,12.52,1.74,0 . 78,0.71,1.23,0.39,0.74,0.08,0.27
Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43,0.42,0.3 6,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Norwegian_Southcentral,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.78,1.91, 0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Orcadian,51.33,24.44,12.68,4.97,2.50,0.31,1.00,0.2 3,1.05,0.81,0.39,0.08,0.20
Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.96,0.11, 0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Polish_Greater_Poland,31.45,43.92,10.26,5.30,5.52, 0.80,0.87,0.09,0.23,0.65,0.48,0.37,0.06
Polish_Kujavia,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.0 2,0.20,0.79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Polish_Lesser_Poland,31.00,43.23,11.15,5.26,5.63,0 .55,0.47,0.06,0.80,0.85,0.57,0.29,0.16
Polish_Mazovia,28.33,46.20,10.70,5.60,5.04,0.54,1. 20,0.15,0.69,0.66,0.50,0.18,0.20
Polish_Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1 .33,0.00,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Silesia,29.25,43.03,12.16,6.16,5.57,0.39,1. 25,0.29,0.64,0.70,0.42,0.16,0.00
Polish_South,30.66,42.03,11.08,6.56,6.22,0.35,1.02 ,0.45,0.97,0.07,0.25,0.12,0.22
Polish_Subcarpathia,28.71,42.67,11.10,6.04,7.21,1. 18,0.44,0.11,1.70,0.23,0.12,0.35,0.13
Polish_Warmia-Masuria,32.51,44.26,10.88,4.19,3.27,0.95,1.21,0.16 ,1.06,0.51,0.33,0.29,0.39
Romanian_Maramureș,26.03,28.85,16.08,9.29,14.55,1. 83,0.84,0.74,0.77,0.46,0.42,0.07,0.06
Romanian_North-Moldavia,24.89,30.80,15.19,9.09,14.27,1.69,0.84,0. 56,1.37,0.53,0.47,0.17,0.13
Russian,26.03,47.50,8.65,5.49,2.99,0.68,1.32,0.45, 4.75,1.23,0.46,0.15,0.31
Russian_Kargopol,24.92,48.36,7.52,5.54,1.50,0.04,2 .49,0.23,6.67,1.70,0.23,0.53,0.26
Russian_Kostroma,26.19,48.54,6.21,5.35,3.19,0.39,1 .05,0.69,6.37,1.16,0.52,0.19,0.16
Russian_Pskov,27.00,53.07,7.78,4.50,1.25,1.69,0.54 ,0.03,1.87,0.73,0.58,0.45,0.50
Russian_Ryazan,24.89,47.15,8.72,7.10,4.48,0.69,1.6 7,0.40,2.97,0.99,0.32,0.39,0.23
Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83,1.69,1 .38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Russian_Southwest,25.94,46.84,8.96,5.59,6.50,0.98, 0.99,0.72,1.85,0.81,0.27,0.37,0.19
Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl,25.04,49.54,9.31,5.95,1.48,1.02,1.12,0.1 0,3.82,1.42,0.39,0.66,0.16
Scottish,51.37,23.36,12.70,6.44,2.73,0.57,1.18,0.1 6,0.32,0.63,0.27,0.14,0.05
Scottish_ Gàidhealtachd,51.59,24.25,11.99,6.92,1.53,0.50,1.1 8,0.13,0.36,0.78,0.35,0.27,0.18
Scottish_East,51.30,23.28,12.93, 6.42,2.73,0.47,1.14,0.15,0.28,0.72,0.34,0.12, 0.10
Scottish_North-Highlands,51.33,23.07,13.18,6.37,2.40,0.60,1.03,0. 19,0.36,0.84,0.33,0.10, 0.19
Scottish_Northeast,51.34,23.90,13.12, 6.02,2.29,0.50,1.04,0.26,0.31,0.61,0.27,0.20,0.16
Scottish_Southwest,51.78,23.30,12.54,6.51,2.42,0.4 5,1.26,0.10,0.27,0.64,0.39,0.24,0.09
Serb_Croatia,25.35,30.09,16.65,8.84,15.35,1.52,0.5 1,0.30,0.51,0.41,0.34,0.08,0.04
Serb_Republika_Srpska,24.92,31.27,16.57,9.03,14.29 ,1.28,0.52,0.30,0.84,0.39,0.47,0.07,0.05
Serb_West,25.54,29.32,17.4,9.21,14.74,1.29,0.57,0. 25,0.85,0.48,0.2,0.06,0.1
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21
Slovene,31.98,34.42,14.67,6.14,9.29,1.04,0.83,0.12 ,0.54,0.33,0.29,0.10,0.25
Sorb,33.21,41.31,10.56,4.96,6.56,0.56,1.15,0.46,0. 26,0.59,0.16,0.10,0.12
Swedish,48.45,30.99,9.81,3.64,2.43,0.84,1.41,0.21, 0.68,0.56,0.40,0.32,0.23
Swedish_East-Svealand,46.74,34.13,8.85,3.92,1.19,0.53,0.97,0.27 ,1.69,0.86,0.56,0.19,0.12
Swedish_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.88,0.62,0 .93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Swedish_Norrland,44.53,36.23,6.25,3.95,0.66,0.40,1 .26,0.39,4.94,0.62,0.60,0.09,0.14
Swedish_West-Svealand,49.72,30.6,9.57,4.11,1.75,0.46,1.03,0.19, 1.05,0.53,0.45,0.27,0.27
Swiss_French,37.79,20.53,19.52,7.90,10.97,1.49,0.2 7,0.26,0.44,0.44,0.36,0.04,0.00
Ukrainian,26.53,45.54,10.39,5.93,6.34,0.90,0.97,0. 43,1.33,0.70,0.47,0.19,0.27
Ukrainian_Carpathians,26.50,38.13,13.24,7.09,9.82, 1.21,1.06,0.35,1.41,0.65,0.25,0.16,0.13
Ukrainian_Galicia,27.87,39.97,12.58,7.17,7.51,1.27 ,1.03,0.33,1.17,0.57,0.37,0.09,0.07
Ukrainian_Moldova,26.14,41.20,11.47,6.64,9.05,1.05 ,1.11,0.70,1.19,0.54,0.28,0.35,0.27
Ukrainian_North,26.50,45.84,10.23,5.88,6.40,0.84,1 .04,0.49,1.19,0.67,0.46,0.23,0.23
Ukrainian_Northwest,27.13,46.07,10.32,5.77,6.00,0. 74,0.78,0.42,1.12,0.68,0.55,0.16,0.27
Ukrainian_South,26.46,43.06,11.30,5.89,7.53,0.90,1 .45,0.40,1.61,0.77,0.27,0.12,0.22
Welsh,50.73,23.16,13.73,6.18,2.84,0.53,0.97,0.13,0 .32,0.58,0.4,0.25,0.12

[rothaer]

Who gives a rats, this is an English speaking forum, and more people would be familiar with the English names anyway.

As a German I like much the German names, of course. But it would lead to a lot of inconsistancies if we would use a German (only) name and then "South" or "Central" in English. If we would have used used German "Süd" and "Mittel" too, how would then the whole database turn out, if Finns, Poles, Chinese and Kenyians would do the respective?

So yes, there is hardly any other reasonable way than using English names in this context.

[Jana]

I accidentaly posted old upper Austrian average in the update. But I fixed it now. Lower Austria was wrong too, I posted old average (fixed)! Double checking everything now!

Edit: all other samples were fine and I fixed these two mentioned above, all good. Update is complete.

[Luke35]

One more thank you to Stearsolina, Rothaer, and Dunai. Utilizing my mother's closest German region, I can now get a nice modeling for myself.

I am sure the work that you all have done will be of great value to countless people.

Target: Mr.G
Distance: 150.1401% / 1.50140096
53.2 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
28.8 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
18.0 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely

--------------------------

Target: Mr.G
Distance: 165.7224% / 1.65722397
51.6 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
29.4 Transdanubia
19.0 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely

---------------------------

Target: Mr.G
Distance: 154.4257% / 1.54425736
52.6 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
23.8 Transdanubia
23.6 Transylvania

[rothaer]

(...)

The taken into account millions of (German) inhabitants used for weighting:

https://i.imgur.com/QTX2XaB.jpg

[Jana]

Interesting how Austrian and German averages score same amount of Baltic (27), just German has 6% more North Atlantic.

And Germany's Germans are closest population to them.

Distance to: Austrian

6.48610823 German
7.96273194 Swiss
8.64046874 Hungarian
8.82998301 Slovene
10.09361679 Belgian
10.25256066 Flemish
10.98678297 Croat
11.85785394 French
12.06355669 Slovak
12.15000000 Czech
14.02756215 Serb
14.07545381 Bosniak
14.12433361 Dutch
14.64714989 English
15.29071614 Rusyn
15.30902675 Moldovan
15.46340195 Montenegrin
15.65699524 Swedish
15.87309044 Romanian
15.87998741 Sorb
16.00132495 Welsh
16.70807589 Scottish
16.71802919 Danish
17.21761598 Icelandic
17.34724474 Norwegian

Target: Austrian
Distance: 0.5295% / 0.52954886 | ADC: 0.5x RC

34.5 German
33.6 Hungarian
31.9 Swiss

[Jana]

full gradient run:

Distance to: Austrian

2.04699780 German_West_Bohemia
2.43659599 Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria
3.65127033 Austrian_Lower_Austria
4.77140441 German_County_Glatz
4.84319110 German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz
4.86224228 German_Bavaria_proper
4.87351003 German_Bavarian_Swabia
5.04821751 Austrian_Burgenland
5.18070459 German_North_Moravia
5.21990421 German_Thuringia_Central
5.27672247 German_Lower/Middle_Franconia
5.31506350 Austrian_Styria
5.43104962 German_Saxony
5.64447517 German_North_Bohemia
6.11128464 French_Alsace
6.47902770 German_Baden-Württemberg
6.48610823 German
6.58522589 Swiss_German
7.27596729 German_Thuringia_East
7.36557533 Austrian_Tyrol
7.65413614 German_South_Hesse
7.91537112 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.95241473 Austrian_Carinthia
7.96273194 Swiss_French
8.30428203 German_Saxony-Anhalt_South

[Leto]

Most of the Austrian pops do not look particularly Slav-blooded. The Baltic is well below 30%. So that was probably overestimated by some people.

[Dušan]

Mine updated 2-way, top 20

Very often get German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) in combination with some Greek average.


Distance to: Dušan
2.99684634 60.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 40.00% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.05662272 37.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 63.00% Moldovan_South
3.15036793 62.40% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 37.60% Greek_Eastern_Thrace
3.15255447 47.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl + 52.20% Torbesh
3.22959276 66.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 34.00% Greek_Athens
3.26174619 48.80% Gagauz + 51.20% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
3.26749765 63.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 37.00% Greek_Peloponnese
3.27490210 53.20% Albanian_Gheg + 46.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.28290686 65.40% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 34.60% Greek_Central
3.29547691 58.80% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 41.20% Torbesh
3.30894402 60.60% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 39.40% Greek_Eastern_Macedonia
3.32614797 62.20% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 37.80% Greek_Western
3.33168204 42.20% Albanian_Gheg + 57.80% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
3.37087127 52.00% Bulgarian_Southcentral + 48.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
3.39539371 45.40% German_East_Prussia_Memelland + 54.60% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.40265402 40.80% Albanian + 59.20% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
3.40313615 71.40% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 28.60% Greek_North_Aegean
3.41701210 42.80% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 57.20% Romanian_Dobruja
3.41782023 74.60% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 25.40% Greek_Symi
3.42376172 68.40% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 31.60% Greek_Ionia

[Jana]

Please replace Bosniak average with the following ones:



Bosniak,24.88,32.47,15.40,8.91,13.89,1.77,0.79,0.5 1,0.57,0.47,0.26,0.02,0.06
Bosniak_Central_Northeast,25.73,35.04,14.18,8.58,1 2.19,1.26,0.98,0.31,0.62,0.60,0.25,0.16,0.10
Bosniak_Krajina_East,25.43,33.89,15.88,9.11,11.04, 2.17,0.44,0.41,0.17,0.92,0.30,0.18,0.08
Bosniak_Krajina_West,27.62,30.59,15.24,8.49,14.98, 0.74,0.11,0.45,0.27,0.73,0.64,0.12,0.02
Bosniak_Southeast,24.67,30.37,16.69,8.45,15.57,1.9 6,0.64,0.38,0.30,0.50,0.31,0.17,0.00


Credit goes to Vbnethkio, who made them.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Bosniak PCA

https://i.imgur.com/BTFbUX0.png

[CommonSense]

Bosniak PCA

https://i.imgur.com/BTFbUX0.png

Nice work, but Bosniaks from Sandžak should also have been included in the PCA. Their numbers aren't insignificant.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Nice work, but Bosniaks from Sandžak should also have been included in the PCA. Their numbers aren't insignificant.

Yeah, I forgot that sample.

https://i.imgur.com/9w3XPIW.png

Averages used


Bosniak,24.88,32.47,15.40,8.91,13.89,1.77,0.79,0.5 1,0.57,0.47,0.26,0.02,0.06
Bosniak_Cazin_Bihac,27.62,30.59,15.24,8.49,14.98,0 .74,0.11,0.45,0.27,0.73,0.64,0.12,0.02
Bosniak_Central_Northeast,25.73,35.04,14.18,8.58,1 2.19,1.26,0.98,0.31,0.62,0.60,0.25,0.16,0.10
Bosniak_Eastern_Krajina,25.43,33.89,15.88,9.11,11. 04,2.17,0.44,0.41,0.17,0.92,0.30,0.18,0.08
Bosniak_Sandžak,24.09,24.59,19.05,10.39,18.12,1.78 ,0.19,0.38,0.49,0.55,0.29,0.01,0.06
Bosniak_Southeast,24.67,30.37,16.69,8.45,15.57,1.9 6,0.64,0.38,0.30,0.50,0.31,0.17,0.00
Albanian,21.69,17.54,21.72,11.13,23.86,2.59,0.16,0 .28,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.16,0.09
Albanian_Gheg,21.88,18.15,21.86,11.23,22.94,2.61,0 .19,0.24,0.26,0.19,0.26,0.16,0.02
Aromanian,21.26,20.34,19.00,11.77,22.61,3.09,0.18, 0.47,0.47,0.41,0.38,0.04,0.00
Bulgarian,21.80,24.15,17.82,11.65,19.51,2.40,0.53, 0.42,0.77,0.38,0.33,0.11,0.08
Bulgarian_Northcentral,21.30,24.45,17.41,11.88,19. 86,2.33,0.65,0.28,0.99,0.37,0.28,0.07,0.14
Bulgarian_Northeastern,22.15,22.37,17.46,13.43,19. 44,2.56,0.46,0.32,0.49,0.24,0.29,0.11,0.10
Bulgarian_Northwestern,22.04,26.19,17.58,10.15,19. 05,2.31,0.40,0.52,0.70,0.51,0.38,0.07,0.09
Bulgarian_Southcentral,21.22,23.73,18.05,11.66,20. 32,2.41,0.57,0.37,0.85,0.21,0.29,0.24,0.04
Bulgarian_Southeastern,20.13,21.81,18.44,13.87,20. 44,2.92,0.43,0.30,0.48,0.44,0.47,0.11,0.07
Bulgarian_Southwestern,22.85,24.04,17.87,11.48,18. 68,2.26,0.58,0.51,0.85,0.44,0.33,0.06,0.06
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
Croat_East,26.84,34.60,14.13,8.26,12.31,1.43,0.22, 0.12,1.08,0.68,0.30,0.01,0.01
Croat_North,30.06,34.35,14.42,7.05,10.10,1.33,0.54 ,0.31,0.52,0.61,0.40,0.16,0.14
Croat_South,26.36,31.83,15.92,8.38,13.60,1.47,0.50 ,0.28,0.56,0.47,0.37,0.12,0.11
Croat_West,28.53,31.60,15.24,7.61,13.31,1.38,0.61, 0.38,0.36,0.38,0.40,0.13,0.07
Csángó-Ceangău,27.60,29.46,15.34,8.91,11.04,1.51,0.87,1.0 7,2.64,0.81,0.47,0.15,0.15
Czech,32.33,37.42,11.45,5.60,8.50,1.59,1.15,0.44,0 .51,0.91,0.00,0.05,0.06
Gagauz,19.35,22.92,18.13,13.07,21.02,2.46,0.65,0.3 7,0.91,0.33,0.51,0.21,0.07
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
Greek_Northern_Thrace,19.04,22.53,19.23,12.02,24.1 2,0,0,0,1.00,0,1.52,0,0
Hungarian,30.43,32.58,14.23,7.16,10.42,1.28,0.9,0. 55,1.19,0.55,0.35,0.2,0.15
Hungarian_Alföld,29.33,33.01,14.59,7.21,10.63,1.26 ,0.68,0.67,1.28,0.62,0.39,0.2,0.11
Hungarian_North,30.35,35.36,13.29,6.2,10.12,0.75,1 .05,0.5,1.16,0.51,0.38,0.15,0.17
Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11, 7.29,9.79,1.37,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16
Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely,28.34,28.55,15.07,8 .19,12.8,1.37,1.03,0.76,2.28,0.74,0.37,0.2,0.13
Lemko_Poland,27.74,37.63,14.89,7.34,9.48,0.24,0.42 ,0.58,0.56,0.60,0.52,0.00,0.00
Moldovan,23.31,31.19,15.42,9.57,14.52,1.81,0.97,0. 63,1.41,0.46,0.42,0.12,0.18
Moldovan_Central,23.53,31.20,15.11,9.56,14.31,1.77 ,1.20,0.52,1.58,0.45,0.46,0.15,0.17
Moldovan_North,23.99,33.84,14.21,9.52,12.52,1.74,0 .78,0.71,1.23,0.39,0.74,0.08,0.27
Moldovan_South,21.97,26.97,17.49,10.22,17.43,2.16, 0.92,0.45,1.23,0.54,0.35,0.12,0.14
Montenegrin,24.13,26.54,18.30,9.74,17.15,2.10,0.23 ,0.26,0.68,0.40,0.32,0.07,0.06
North_Macedonian_Central,23.10,19.77,20.84,11.41,2 0.84,1.98,0.35,0.45,0.40,0.45,0.34,0.05,0.04
North_Macedonian_East,24.84,20.89,21.03,9.94,18.58 ,2.94,0.13,0.52,0.32,0.57,0.25,0.00,0.00
North_Macedonian_North,22.71,22.37,19.31,11.16,21. 05,1.89,0.34,0.25,0.31,0.26,0.26,0.04,0.04
North_Macedonian_South,21.81,19.85,20.28,11.24,22. 75,2.38,0.21,0.30,0.32,0.39,0.39,0.03,0.04
Pomak_Bulgaria,19.91,25.54,17.54,12.24,20.19,2.63, 0.09,0.69,0.47,0.30,0.17,0.19,0.05
Pomak_Greece,18.71,25.67,15.92,12.89,21.39,2.55,0. 34,0.34,1.27,0.36,0.58,0.00,0.00
Romanian,23.71,26.24,17.13,10.25,17.33,1.90,0.64,0 .60,1.07,0.54,0.38,0.11,0.10
Romanian_Banat,23.88,25.79,17.43,10.47,17.42,1.87, 0.49,0.57,1.19,0.45,0.26,0.11,0.06
Romanian_Crișana,25.14,27.30,16.89,9.51,16.54,1.32 ,0.69,0.43,0.91,0.60,0.44,0.12,0.10
Romanian_Dobruja,22.26,25.09,17.69,10.81,18.50,2.1 6,0.71,0.71,1.15,0.45,0.30,0.06,0.10
Romanian_Maramureș,26.03,28.85,16.08,9.29,14.55,1. 83,0.84,0.74,0.77,0.46,0.42,0.07,0.06
Romanian_Muntenia,22.61,24.55,17.51,11.08,18.76,2. 11,0.62,0.62,1.03,0.54,0.35,0.12,0.09
Romanian_North-Moldavia,24.89,30.80,15.19,9.09,14.27,1.69,0.84,0. 56,1.37,0.53,0.47,0.17,0.13
Romanian_Oltenia,23.41,24.91,18.15,10.55,18.10,1.8 3,0.51,0.71,0.87,0.38,0.37,0.08,0.12
Romanian_South-Moldavia,24.02,26.72,16.79,9.78,17.00,2.06,0.64,0. 58,1.14,0.64,0.37,0.10,0.16
Romanian_Transylvania,24.22,26.32,17.35,9.92,17.02 ,1.80,0.57,0.56,1.10,0.59,0.38,0.09,0.10
Romanian_Wallachia,22.69,24.74,17.64,10.95,18.58,2 .07,0.62,0.65,1.01,0.49,0.35,0.11,0.10
Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05
Serb_Central,24.89,29.52,16.74,8.49,16.39,1.75,0.2 7,0.23,0.73,0.53,0.24,0.07,0.09
Serb_Croatia,25.35,30.09,16.65,8.84,15.35,1.52,0.5 1,0.30,0.51,0.41,0.34,0.08,0.04
Serb_Herzegovina,24.24,28.42,17.69,9.12,16.53,1.92 ,0.17,0.27,0.57,0.44,0.4,0.16,0.07
Serb_Montenegro,24.06,25.44,18.66,10.11,17.52,2.21 ,0.27,0.26,0.74,0.37,0.28,0.02,0.05
Serb_Republika_Srpska,24.92,31.27,16.57,9.03,14.29 ,1.28,0.52,0.30,0.84,0.39,0.47,0.07,0.05
Serb_South,23.55,28.45,16.82,9.8,16.96,2.09,0.51,0 .30,0.60,0.38,0.27,0.12,0.12
Serb_Vojvodina,24.72,28.71,17.21,9.07,16.01,1.5,0. 65,0.5,0.54,0.53,0.3,0.07,0.15
Serb_West,25.54,29.32,17.4,9.21,14.74,1.29,0.57,0. 25,0.85,0.48,0.2,0.06,0.1
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21
Slovene,31.98,34.42,14.67,6.14,9.29,1.04,0.83,0.12 ,0.54,0.33,0.29,0.10,0.25
Torbesh,21.55,17.67,22.34,10.48,23.69,2.25,0.00,0. 51,0.48,0.79,0.25,0.00,0.00
Ukrainian_Carpathians,26.50,38.13,13.24,7.09,9.82, 1.21,1.06,0.35,1.41,0.65,0.25,0.16,0.13
Ukrainian_Galicia,27.87,39.97,12.58,7.17,7.51,1.27 ,1.03,0.33,1.17,0.57,0.37,0.09,0.07
Ukrainian_Moldova,26.14,41.20,11.47,6.64,9.05,1.05 ,1.11,0.70,1.19,0.54,0.28,0.35,0.27

[Peterski]

Mine updated 2-way, top 20

Very often get German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) in combination with some Greek average.

Distance to: Dušan
2.99684634 60.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 40.00% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.05662272 37.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 63.00% Moldovan_South
3.15036793 62.40% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 37.60% Greek_Eastern_Thrace
3.15255447 47.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl + 52.20% Torbesh
3.22959276 66.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 34.00% Greek_Athens
3.26174619 48.80% Gagauz + 51.20% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
3.26749765 63.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 37.00% Greek_Peloponnese
3.27490210 53.20% Albanian_Gheg + 46.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.28290686 65.40% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 34.60% Greek_Central
3.29547691 58.80% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 41.20% Torbesh
3.30894402 60.60% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 39.40% Greek_Eastern_Macedonia
3.32614797 62.20% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow) + 37.80% Greek_Western
3.33168204 42.20% Albanian_Gheg + 57.80% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
3.37087127 52.00% Bulgarian_Southcentral + 48.00% German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)

You get that very often because you are Serbian, and that sample is in fact a genetically pure Sorb, and Serbs are descended from Sorbs / White Serbs who migrated south into the Balkans. The very same sample is in Global25 as Sorb_Niederlausitz:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hYu7UM0B40

[Ion Basescul]

Please replace Moldova South average for K13


Moldovan_South,21.78,28.89,15.87,9.76,18.84,2.00,0 .55,0.49,0.66,0.64,0.22,0.12,0.18

[rothaer]

You get that very often because you are Serbian, and that sample is in fact a genetically pure Sorb, and Serbs are descended from Sorbs / White Serbs who migrated south into the Balkans. The very same sample is in Global25 as Sorb_Niederlausitz: (...)

Yes, because you tricked Davidski and withheld the information that this is no ethnic Sorb, but an ethnic German, like all her ancestors the last 200 years, however.

Of course she will descend from Sorbs later back, like all Germans east of the Elbe-Saale line do descend from Sorbs and Polabians. But you have zero information about her ancestry and she being "in fact a genetically pure Sorb" is a Peterska interpretation only. You have no sense for separating facts and interpretations. Unfortunately.

[Dušan]

You get that very often because you are Serbian, and that sample is in fact a genetically pure Sorb, and Serbs are descended from Sorbs / White Serbs who migrated south into the Balkans. The very same sample is in Global25 as Sorb_Niederlausitz:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hYu7UM0B40

It is really fascinating how autosomal genetics can trace old historical migration.
I can be modeled with other northern Slavs, but neither combination give such close distance as these combinations with sample from todays eastern Germany.
With this, it is proven that historical records about white Serbs in todays eastern Germany is not a myth.

[Jana]

It is true this ethnic German woman is genetically very purely Slavic/Sorb, in fact she is more Slavic genetically than Peterski. However everything rothaer wrote stands. She has only German ancestors in last 200 years.

[Dušan]

It is true this ethnic German woman is genetically very purely Slavic/Sorb, in fact she is more Slavic genetically than Peterski. However everything rothaer wrote stands. She has only German ancestors in last 200 years.

How would you explain that I can be modeled closest with this sample, than with tens and tens Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, Belarussian regional averages?
Accidently or not?

[Jana]

How would you explain that I can be modeled closest with this sample, than with tens and tens Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, Belarussian regional averages?
Accidently or not?

I think it may not be a coincidence. Of course I believe Sorbs are remnants of white Serbs who migrated to Balkans and founded Serbian state. So it's very nice you get modeled with Sorb like sample among all others offered.

[rothaer]

It is really fascinating how autosomal genetics can trace old historical migration.
I can be modeled with other northern Slavs, but neither combination give such close distance as these combinations with sample from todays eastern Germany.
With this, it is proven that historical records about white Serbs in todays eastern Germany is not a myth.

This woman will likely have loads of Sorb ancestry farther back and she has also very Slavic-like genetics. I just opposed mingeling knowledge and assumptions already in the labeling (which then hides to users what is what).

What you tell is admittedly intriguing. But before drawing final conclusions: Does this apply when modelling other Serbs too?

[Dušan]

This woman will likely have loads of Sorb ancestry farther back and she has also very Slavic-like genetics. I just opposed mingeling knowledge and assumptions already in the labeling (which then hides for users what is what).

What you tell is admittedly intriguing. But before drawing final conclusions: Does this apply when modelling other Serbs too?

I should check, I dont know.
For example, user vbnetkhio has this model for sure, since we have very simmilar K13 results.

But, maybe it is coincidence.
With further development of autosomal genetics in future, we will find out and descover new facts.

[rothaer]

I should check, I dont know.
For example, user vbnetkhio has this model for sure, since we have very simmilar K13 results.

But, maybe it is coincidence.
With further development of autosomal genetics in future, we will find out and descover new facts.

I'm curious and do not oppose whatever find.

Just this thought: If such a connection is not just true, but also is visible in such a way, wouldn't that presuppose that White Serbs have something that distinguish them from neighboring Slavic tribes?

It's not impossible. But in that case it should be something specific, not harbored in other Slavic tribes. And after we model in K13, that specificity should also express in K13 values.

[vbnetkhio]

I'm curious and do not oppose whatever find.

Just this thought: If such a connection is not just true, but also is visible in such a way, wouldn't that presuppose that White Serbs have something that distinguish them from neighboring Slavic tribes?

It's not impossible. But in that case it should be something specific, not harbored in other Slavic tribes. And after we model in K13, that specificity should also express in K13 values.

The Brandenburg result looks looks very similar to Ukrainian and Eastern Polish averages, except 2% of the Baltic is moved into West Med.

[MoroLP]

Please replace Bosniak average with the following ones:



Bosniak,24.88,32.47,15.40,8.91,13.89,1.77,0.79,0.5 1,0.57,0.47,0.26,0.02,0.06
Bosniak_Central_Northeast,25.73,35.04,14.18,8.58,1 2.19,1.26,0.98,0.31,0.62,0.60,0.25,0.16,0.10
Bosniak_Krajina_East,25.43,33.89,15.88,9.11,11.04, 2.17,0.44,0.41,0.17,0.92,0.30,0.18,0.08
Bosniak_Krajina_West,27.62,30.59,15.24,8.49,14.98, 0.74,0.11,0.45,0.27,0.73,0.64,0.12,0.02
Bosniak_Southeast,24.67,30.37,16.69,8.45,15.57,1.9 6,0.64,0.38,0.30,0.50,0.31,0.17,0.00


Credit goes to Vbnethkio, who made them.

Something doesn't add up with the Bosniak national average - 3/4 regional averages have NA >25, one even >27 while national has <25? Which Canton's are included for each regional average?

These regional averages give Bosniak,25.86,32.47,15.50,8.66,13.45,1.53,0.54,0.3 9,0.34,0.69,0.38,0.16,0.05

[Peterski]

Yes, because you tricked Davidski and withheld the information

Dude stop your Nazi-like unsubstantiated slanders, I presented all the facts I knew about this sample to Davidski.

I also sent to Davidski what Sven had told me (exact quote).

And I even asked David to double-check this sample with his methods of genetic analyses, to confirm "Sorbianness".

Davidski checked IBD sharing between this sample and academic Sorbs.

But he said these academic Sorbs cannot be added to G25.

[vbnetkhio]

Something doesn't add up with the Bosniak national average - 3/4 regional averages have NA >25, one even >27 while national has <25? Which Canton's are included for each regional average?

These regional averages give Bosniak,25.86,32.47,15.50,8.66,13.45,1.53,0.54,0.3 9,0.34,0.69,0.38,0.16,0.05

Because it isn't calculated from these new averages, it's the old academic average, which are regionally mixed Bosniaks from Sarajevo.

Your calculation shows it's pretty close to the truth, with some minor variations. But Bosniak Sandzak should also be added, and they should be weighed by population size.

[MoroLP]

Because it isn't calculated from these new averages, it's the old academic average, which are regionally mixed Bosniaks from Sarajevo.

Your calculation shows it's pretty close to the truth, with some minor variations. But Bosniak Sandzak should also be added, and they should be weighed by population size.

But what's the point of naming and having it as Bosniak if Bosniak isn't calculated using regional averages? Currently, we have two-three Bosniak national averages. It is confusing. Of course, the national average should be weighted by regional population size. Hence we need to know which Canton samples are included in each regional average.

Bosniak Sandzak shouldn't be added to the Bosniak average, they aren't very related to the Bosniaks from BiH. Speak a different dialect and with different genetics actually are Serbianized-Bosniakized Albanians. We need a clear Bosniak average for BiH like in scientific papers.

[rothaer]

Dude stop your Nazi-like unsubstantiated slanders (…)

That specifically nationalsocialists are connected to unsubstantiated slanders is another interesting oddball opinion.

You did not unveil to Davidski that the testee was an ethnic German with only ethnic German ancestors the last 200 years.

[Peterski]

^^^
That's not what Sven told me, he said, quote: "she is a Sorb, but Sorbian culture was suppressed in this area [by Germanization]".

Even you did not strongly insist on calling that individual German back then. You have changed your mind after 3 years.

[vbnetkhio]

But what's the point of naming and having it as Bosniak if Bosniak isn't calculated using regional averages? Currently, we have two-three Bosniak national averages.

There was only this academic one. Another user removed it, and now Stearsolina requested it to be added back to the sheet.



It is confusing. Of course, the national average should be weighted by regional population size. Hence we need to know which Canton samples are included in each regional average.

something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/EkK9Ja2.png

I didn't want to update the average yet, because I feel these new averages are still weak, and using those regionally mixed academic samples feels more reliable.



Bosniak Sandzak shouldn't be added to the Bosniak average, they aren't very related to the Bosniaks from BiH. Speak a different dialect and with different genetics actually are Serbianized-Bosniakized Albanians. We need a clear Bosniak average for BiH like in scientific papers.

It isn't so clear cut. Bosniaks from eastern Bosnia have some dialectal and genetic similarities with Sandžak. There is also a difference between eastern and western Sandžak, the latter has little Albanian influence and it should get it's own average when enough samples are connected.

Also, if we apply this criterium to the Bosniaks, it should be applied to all other averages in the sheet too. And the current sheet is made with respect to ethnic self-identification, not country borders, so it would require a lot of changing.

Most of the scientific papers on the population of B&H sample a lot of Sandžak Bosniaks living in Sarajevo, they shouldn't be taken as some measure of quality.

[Dunai]

Current Bosniak average is the one of Bosniaks from Bosnia, excluding Sandzak Bosniaks, so I don't know why should it be replaced back with the academic one, but I am not an expert on them as people from that region so I may be wrong.

[Jana]

Current Bosniak average is the one of Bosniaks from Bosnia, excluding Sandzak Bosniaks, so I don't know why should it be replaced back with the academic one, but I am not an expert on them as people from that region so I may be wrong.

It's not replaced, it was just renamed to Bosniak central and northeastern, because all the samples in that (current) average are from there.

[Leto]

I've learned Sanzhak is not even part of BiH. I thought it was Southern Bosnia :D How are they "the future of the Bonsiaks", according to Varda?..

[Jana]

I've learned Sanzhak is not even part of BiH. I thought it was Southern Bosnia :D How are they "the future of the Bonsiaks", according to Varda?..

They have very good birth rate for the region, while Bosniak population in BiH is declining. Southern part of BiH is called Herzegovina btw.

[Varda]

I've learned Sanzhak is not even part of BiH. I thought it was Southern Bosnia :D How are they "the future of the Bonsiaks", according to Varda?..
So called Sandžak is in southwestern Serbia and northern/northeastern Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandžak

[MoroLP]

There was only this academic one. Another user removed it, and now Stearsolina requested it to be added back to the sheet.

something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/EkK9Ja2.png

Why is Canton Sarajevo added to the Southeast? Doesn't geographically makes more sense having it make Central Bosnian average with Srednjobosanski and Zeničko-Dobojski Canton; Tuzla Canton and other blue area making Northeast average; else is obviously divided between Northwestern and Southeastern average? Do we have enough samples to try something like this?

Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regije_Bosne_i_Hercegovine#/media/Datoteka:Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegov ina.svg)

Bosnia.regions.jpeg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bosnia.regions.jpeg)

Bosnia.AIPUB regions.jpg (https://gvu.ba/images/regije.jpg)


It isn't so clear cut. Bosniaks from eastern Bosnia have some dialectal and genetic similarities with Sandžak. There is also a difference between eastern and western Sandžak, the latter has little Albanian influence and it should get it's own average when enough samples are connected.

Also, if we apply this criterium to the Bosniaks, it should be applied to all other averages in the sheet too. And the current sheet is made with respect to ethnic self-identification, not country borders, so it would require a lot of changing.

Most of the scientific papers on the population of B&H sample a lot of Sandžak Bosniaks living in Sarajevo, they shouldn't be taken as some measure of quality.

I meant both Y-DNA and atDNA. In scientific and genetic genealogical samples we see a clear general difference between Bosniaks from BiH and Sandžak on both Y-DNA and atDNA. The latter population is not Bosniaks. Nobody when thinks about Bosniaks thinks about Sandžak. It is only confusing and misleading people. They became Bosniaks by ethnic identification only in recent history because of religious identification with ethnic identities in Western Balkans - Muslims became Bosniaks. In pre-Yugoslavian censuses, Sandžak Muslims were ethnically identified mostly as Albanians. We already have a kind of controversial chronology of identification of Muslim Bosniaks as Muslims and then as Bosniaks in BiH. The one with Sandžak Muslims is even more complex and adding it up only makes it harder instead of making genetic comparisons easier, it’s not pragmatic anyway.

The farthest regional and supraregional Croatian averages have a distance of 8.9 (Herzegovina-Northwest) and 6.0 (South-North) while from the Croatian national average 2.7 and 3.2.

The farthest regional Serbian averages have a distance of 3.9 (Herzegovina-Republika Srpska), 4.28 (South-Republika Srpska), or 7.1 (Montenegro-Republika Srpska) while from the Serbian national average of 1.7-2.3-4.9

"Bosniak_Sandžak" average has the farthest distance of staggering 13.2 from "Bosniak_Central_Northeast" and closest distance of only 7.06 from "Bosniak_Southeast" while from the Bosniak "old-new" national average of 9.8 - to "Albanian Gheg" is 8.89 and 9.84 to "Albanian". They are closer to Gheg Albanians than to Bosniaks from BiH. They are obviously not part of the same (Bosniak) ethnic population.


The population of the sanjak of Novi Pazar was ethnically and religiously diverse. In 1878-81, Muslim Slav muhacirs (refugees) from areas which became part of Montenegro, settled in the sanjak. As Ottoman institutions only registered religious affiliation, official Ottoman statistics about ethnicity do not exist. Austrian, Bulgarian and Serbian consulates in the area produced their own ethnographic estimations about the sanjak. In general, three main groups lived in the region: Orthodox Serbs, Muslim Albanians and Muslim Slavs (noted in contemporary sources as Bosnian or Herzegovinian Muslims). Small communities of Romani, Turks and Jews lived mainly in towns. The Bulgarian foreign ministry compiled a report in 1901-02. The five kazas (districs) of the sanjak of the Novi Pazar at that time were: Akova, Sjenica, Kolašin, Novi Pazar and Novi Varoš. According to the Bulgarian report, in the kaza of Akova there were 47 Albanian villages which had 1,266 households. Serbs lived in 11 villages which had 216 households.[53] The town of Akova (Bijelo Polje) had 100 Albanian and Serb households. There were also mixed villages - inhabited by both Serbs and Albanians - which had 115 households with 575 inhabitants. The kaza of Sjenica was inhabited mainly by Orthodox Serbs (69 villages with 624 households) and Bosnian Muslims (46 villages with 655 households). Seventeen villages had a population of both Orthodox Serbs and Bosnian Muslims. Albanians (505 households) lived exclusively in the town of Sjenica. The kaza of Novi Pazar had 1,749 households in 244 Serb villages and 896 households in 81 Albanian villages. Nine villages inhabited by both Serbs and Albanians had 173 households. The town of Novi Pazar had a total of 1,749 Serb and Albanian households with 8,745 inhabitants.[54] The kaza of Kolašin had 27 Albanian villages with 732 households and 5 Serb villages with 75 households. The administrative centre of the kaza, Šahovići, had 25 Albanian households. The kaza of Novi Varoš, according the Bulgarian report, had 19 Serbian villages with 298 households and "one Bosnian village with 200 houses".[55] Novi Varoš had 725 Serb and some Albanian households.[56]

The last official registration of the population of the sanjak of Novi Pazar before the Balkan Wars was conducted in 1910. The 1910 Ottoman census recorded 52,833 Muslims and 27,814 Orthodox Serbs. About 65% of the population were Muslims and 35% Serbian Orthodox. The majority of the Muslim population were Albanians. [57]

Sandžak is a very ethnically diverse region. Most Bosniaks declared themselves ethnic Muslims in 1991 census. By the 2002-2003 census, however, most of them declared themselves Bosniaks. There is still a significant minority that identify as Muslims (by ethnicity). There are still some Albanian villages (Boroštica, Doliće and Ugao) in the Pešter region.[58] There were a larger presence of Albanians in Sandžak in the past, however due to various factors such as migration, assimilation, along with mixing, many identify as Bosniaks instead.[18][59][60]

The Slavic dialect of Gusinje and Plav (sometimes considered part of Sandžak) shows very high structural influence from Albanian. Its uniqueness in terms of language contact between Albanian and Slavic is explained by the fact that most Slavic-speakers in today's Plav and Gusinje are of Albanian origin.[61]

[CommonSense]

Why is Canton Sarajevo added to the Southeast? Doesn't geographically makes more sense having it make Central Bosnian average with Srednjobosanski and Zeničko-Dobojski Canton; Tuzla Canton and other blue area making Northeast average; else is obviously divided between Northwestern and Southeastern average? Do we have enough samples to try something like this?

Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regije_Bosne_i_Hercegovine#/media/Datoteka:Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegov ina.svg)

Bosnia.regions.jpeg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bosnia.regions.jpeg)

Bosnia.AIPUB regions.jpg (https://gvu.ba/images/regije.jpg)



I meant both Y-DNA and atDNA. In scientific and genetic genealogical samples we see a clear general difference between Bosniaks from BiH and Sandžak on both Y-DNA and atDNA. The latter population is not Bosniaks. Nobody when thinks about Bosniaks thinks about Sandžak. It is only confusing and misleading people. They became Bosniaks by ethnic identification only in recent history because of religious identification with ethnic identities in Western Balkans - Muslims became Bosniaks. In pre-Yugoslavian censuses, Sandžak Muslims were ethnically identified mostly as Albanians. We already have a kind of controversial chronology of identification of Muslim Bosniaks as Muslims and then as Bosniaks in BiH. The one with Sandžak Muslims is even more complex and adding it up only makes it harder instead of making genetic comparisons easier, it’s not pragmatic anyway.

The farthest regional and supraregional Croatian averages have a distance of 8.9 (Herzegovina-Northwest) and 6.0 (South-North) while from the Croatian national average 2.7 and 3.2.

The farthest regional Serbian averages have a distance of 3.9 (Herzegovina-Republika Srpska), 4.28 (South-Republika Srpska), or 7.1 (Montenegro-Republika Srpska) while from the Serbian national average of 1.7-2.3-4.9

"Bosniak_Sandžak" average has the farthest distance of staggering 13.2 from "Bosniak_Central_Northeast" and closest distance of only 7.06 from "Bosniak_Southeast" while from the Bosniak "old-new" national average of 9.8 - to "Albanian Gheg" is 8.89 and 9.84 to "Albanian". They are closer to Gheg Albanians than to Bosniaks from BiH. They are obviously not part of the same (Bosniak) ethnic population.

The issue is that some of the biggest Bosniak nationalists come from Sandžak. Surely at least 80% of them feel no different from their muslim brethern from Bosnia and considerably closer to them than to the neighbouring Serbo-Montenegrins and Albanians. The amount of people who identify as "Bosniak" instead of "Muslim" keeps dropping with every passing census. Heck, the best proof of how successful the assimilation process has been in that region is the very fact that their DNA project is being run by Sandžakians :biggrin:

And lastly, like everyone (but them) knows, the Bosniak ethnic identity is a modern-day invention that has an exclusive basis in islam. The same criteria that's applied to Serbs, Croats, Albanians, Bulgarians, etc. cannot be applied to them.

[vbnetkhio]

Why is Canton Sarajevo added to the Southeast? Doesn't geographically makes more sense having it make Central Bosnian average with Srednjobosanski and Zeničko-Dobojski Canton; Tuzla Canton and other blue area making Northeast average; else is obviously divided between Northwestern and Southeastern average?

Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regije_Bosne_i_Hercegovine#/media/Datoteka:Historical_regions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegov ina.svg)

Bosnia.regions.jpeg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bosnia.regions.jpeg)

Bosnia.AIPUB regions.jpg (https://gvu.ba/images/regije.jpg)


I merged them that way to make use of them, because there's very few samples, less than 10 for each of these averages, but with some obvious regional differences.

When enough samples are collected, I would divide them this way:

Northern Bosnia (Usora and Soli)
Central Bosnia (usual definiton)
Eastern Bosnia (Sarajevo and Podrinje)

West Herzegovina
East Herzegovina

West Krajina
East Krajina

West Sandžak
East Sandžak

The west/east division used where there's evidence for different genetic clusters. for example, these are both Bosniaks from Herzegovina


a,26.17,23.06,19.93,9.86,16.80,1.88,0.15,0.26,0.35 ,0.01,1.54,0.00,0.00
b,22.27,34.00,17.38,5.81,15.60,2.77,0.00,0.42,1.00 ,0.32,0.00,0.41,0.00

this can hardly be the same genetic group, if yes, then these are extreme outliers in different directions.

[MoroLP]

The issue is that some of the biggest Bosniak nationalists come from Sandžak. Surely at least 80% of them feel no different from their muslim brethern from Bosnia and considerably closer to them than to the neighbouring Serbo-Montenegrins and Albanians. The amount of people who identify as "Bosniak" instead of "Muslim" keeps dropping with every passing census. Heck, the best proof of how successful the assimilation process has been in that region is the very fact that their DNA project is being run by Sandžakians :biggrin:

And lastly, like everyone (but them) knows, the Bosniak ethnic identity is a modern-day invention that has an exclusive basis in islam. The same criteria that's applied to Serbs, Croats, Albanians, Bulgarians, etc. cannot be applied to them.

I am talking about genetics not politics. They are free to think, feel and do how they like it. Good for them and those Sandžakians have done a good job with their DNA project.

As for Bosniak ethnic identity it is more complex than how you presented it. It does have strong medieval basis, as those mentioned, while correlation with religious affiliation like Croatian and Serbian. All of them are more or less modern inventions.

[CommonSense]

I am talking about genetics not politics. They are free to think, feel and do how they like it. Good for them and those Sandžakians have done a good job with their DNA project.

As for Bosniak ethnic identity it is more complex than how you presented it. It does have strong medieval basis, as those mentioned, while correlation with religious affiliation like Croatian and Serbian. All of them are more or less modern inventions.

No, because the ancestors of these people rejected their medieval heritage the moment they accepted islam. None of those wealthy beys had any clue who Tvrtko and Kulin ban were or their own connection to the land. Hell, most of them simply identified as Turks :D Serbs and Croats on the other hand have always been adherents to the same faith and their folklore and heritage reflect their medieval and post-medieval past.

Some of the modern cohesive factors of the Bosniak identity were only recently brought up by their intelectual elites, i. e. the stećci, krstjani, etc.

[MoroLP]

No, because the ancestors of these people rejected their medieval heritage the moment they accepted islam...

When accepted Christianity and other cultural customs did pagan Croats and Serbs become Greco-Romans or Judeo-Christians? No, but could have. Let's leave it at it is complex...

[RogueState]

Serbs and Croats have ethnic consciousness from centuries, gaining legitimacy to build an ethnic identity despite moving territories (that's why there are Serbs and Croats outside proper Serbia and Croatia), that have become natural feelings, even if there are some genetical heterogeneity.

In the case of Bosniaks, it's a recent identification that came too late in the course of history (ethnic nationalism was a 19th century concept), in the sense that in our postmodern globalized world, the ethnic-national identities are much more liquid and less relevant than before, so it's hard to create a strong identity in the late 20th-early 21st centuries. This is also why they are unable to maintain a functional state because there is no central Bosnia identity firstly, and not even strong Bosniak identity to impose it over others. IMO Bosnia Bosniaks would be better off to let Republika Srpska join Serbia and to be annexed to Croatia.

Another controversial case is the Serb-Montenegrin division, as we can say in the political scene of Montenegro.

Greeks had an empire and great civilizations for centuries, they have been able to assimilate colonized people in Anatolia and Islands; so despite genetic diversity nowadays (especially with Pontians, Cypriots, Cappadoceans), they have a strong pan-Hellenic identity that legitimize the Greek umbrella identity.

Same with Turks, it's a large country of more than 2000 km, with regional differences between West and East and North, but unified for centuries under a civilization and empire (Ottoman-Islamic), that legitimize a common Turkish ethnic identity between a Yörük from Southwest and a Trabzonian from Northeast.

[MoroLP]

Nice post, but the confusion arises between the meaning of Bosnian and Bosniak. The former is medieval and they are trying to reconnect it with the post-Ottoman & more modern identity. It is legitimate since it is still the same population and dialect. The same history they inherited. Will leave it at that.

[rothaer]

^^^
That's not what Sven told me, he said, quote: "she is a Sorb, but Sorbian culture was suppressed in this area [by Germanization]".

Even you did not strongly insist on calling that individual German back then. You have changed your mind after 3 years.

I told you from the very first beginning about her ancestors and the lack of Sorbs among her whole known and researched ancestry! Otherwise her DNA result would not have been a surprise. You obviously preferred not to tell about her ethnic German ancestry to Davidski. This is really incredible.

And you were well aware of her only known ethnic German ancestry. Otherwise you would not have suggested to check for a NPE.

I didn't change my mind in how to call her. Why should I "insist" on calling her a German, when that was never a topic? There was never a talk about that you would take that woman as a reference for a Sorb. I remember well how I thought about it being a bad joke when I later got to know that she was labeled Sorb and used as a respective reference. So it was not even a misunderstanding, but a deliberate lie about her ethnicity. That you seriously try to defend that manipulation disqualifies you enduringly as a reliable source for anything.

[rothaer]

(...) But he said these academic Sorbs cannot be added to G25.

Why?

[Leto]

I told you from the very first beginning about her ancestors and the lack of Sorbs among her whole known and researched ancestry! Otherwise her DNA result would not have been a surprise. You obviously preferred not to tell about her ethnic German ancestry to Davidski. This is really incredible.

And you were well aware of her only known ethnic German ancestry. Otherwise you would not have suggested to check for a NPE.

I didn't change my mind in how to call her. Why should I "insist" on calling her a German, when that was never a topic? There was never a talk about that you would take that woman as a reference for a Sorb. I remember well how I thought about it being a bad joke when I later got to know that she was labeled Sorb and used as a respective reference. So it was not even a misunderstanding, but a deliberate lie about her ethnicity. That you seriously try to defend that manipulation disqualifies you enduringly as a reliable source for anything.
Hey Alter, do we actually need that outlier in the spreadsheet? Piotr won't leave it alone. If it's just an assimilated Sorbian family, let it be Sorbian for genetic purposes because nowadays big languages are spoken by all sorts of people.

[Dušan]

If it's just an assimilated Sorbian family, let it be Sorbian for genetic purposes because nowadays big languages are spoken by all sorts of people.

It looks more logical like this :)



Distance to: Dušan
2.99684634 60.00% Sorbian + 40.00% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.05662272 37.00% Sorbian + 63.00% Moldovan_South
3.15036793 62.40% Sorbian + 37.60% Greek_Eastern_Thrace
3.15255447 47.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl + 52.20% Torbesh
3.22959276 66.00% Sorbian + 34.00% Greek_Athens
3.26174619 48.80% Gagauz + 51.20% Sorbian
3.26749765 63.00% Sorbian + 37.00% Greek_Peloponnese
3.27490210 53.20% Albanian_Gheg + 46.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.28290686 65.40% Sorbian + 34.60% Greek_Central
3.29547691 58.80% Sorbian + 41.20% Torbesh
3.30894402 60.60% Sorbian + 39.40% Greek_Eastern_Macedonia
3.32614797 62.20% Sorbian + 37.80% Greek_Western
3.33168204 42.20% Albanian_Gheg + 57.80% Sorbian
3.37087127 52.00% Bulgarian_Southcentral + 48.00% Sorbian
3.39539371 45.40% German_East_Prussia_Memelland + 54.60% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.40265402 40.80% Albanian + 59.20% Sorbian
3.40313615 71.40% Sorbian + 28.60% Greek_North_Aegean
3.41701210 42.80% Sorbian + 57.20% Romanian_Dobruja
3.41782023 74.60% Sorbian + 25.40% Greek_Symi
3.42376172 68.40% Sorbian + 31.60% Greek_Ionia
3.43945279 52.00% Albanian + 48.00% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.45853400 60.20% Sorbian + 39.80% Greek_Thessaly
3.46017343 55.60% Sorbian + 44.40% North_Macedonian_South
3.46388139 54.40% Sorbian + 45.60% Greek_Northern_Thrace
3.46978529 58.80% Bulgarian_Northwestern + 41.20% Sorbian
3.48561544 70.00% Sorbian + 30.00% Italian_Sicily
3.49441510 68.40% Sorbian + 31.60% Greek_Cyclades
3.51017353 47.40% Bulgarian_Southeastern + 52.60% Sorbian
3.52466397 53.60% Bulgarian + 46.40% Sorbian
3.53201934 69.60% Sorbian + 30.40% Italian_Apulia

[Leto]

It looks more logical like this :)

Haha, yep. The "official" Sorbian average has more Western blood than that supposedly German woman. See the huge distance between them:

Distance to: Sorb
3.25868071 Upper_Silesia
3.28952884 Polish_South
3.32580817 Polish_Lesser_Poland
3.41367837 Polish_Greater_Poland
4.40064768 German_West_Prussia
4.66282103 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
4.70422151 Czech
4.89182992 Polish_Silesia
5.10763155 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
5.22096734 Polish_Subcarpathia
5.57266543 Polish_Kujavia
5.74609433 Slovak
5.85506618 Polish
6.44893790 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.13325311 Polish_Mazovia
7.28457274 Ukrainian_South
7.29851355 Polish_Podlaskie
7.81752518 Ukrainian_Moldova
7.85799593 Ukrainian_Northwest
8.06015509 Ukrainian
8.13410720 Hungarian_North
8.22238408 Ukrainian_North
8.26645027 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
8.66050229 German_Saxony
8.68047234 Slovene

Next time I'm going to add a third generation British Jamaican who lives in London, drinks tea, eats fish and chips, watches football and supports the monarchy. :cool:

[Leto]

On a more serious note - are those Prussian averages representative? I'm asking because I know of a Russian American woman (posted her on TA years ago), she has 7 great-grandparents who were born in modern Russia and one who was born in modern Poland (Suprasl, Podlaskie voivodeship). The latter was of German ethnicity on paper (hardcore German names and last names). But the woman herself scores zero Germanic, as if she was 100% Russian.

[vbnetkhio]

This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.

His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.

Individual results and population averages are 2 different things, they shouldn't be mixed.

[rothaer]

This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.
His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.
Individual results and population averages are 2 different things, they shouldn't be mixed.

I agree. This was my first wish after I first saw her results. Already one more sample with that local ancestry would enlight.

In case she would not be represantative for that more local area it and would just be a personal variation (is that possible to such a big degree?) she should not be used at all. But maybe she is representative there. I think having her mentioned and marking that result an outlier in a Brandenburg context is the most careful and observant way to handle that result. Nobody will misunderstand an outlier as representative and on the other hand we did not hide this existing result. Maybe there is something to detect.

[rothaer]

On a more serious note -

Thanks. :)


are those Prussian averages representative? I'm asking because I know of a Russian American woman (posted her on TA years ago), she has 7 great-grandparents who were born in modern Russia and one who was born in modern Poland (Suprasl, Podlaskie voivodeship). The latter was of German ethnicity on paper (hardcore German names and last names). But the woman herself scores zero Germanic, as if she was 100% Russian.

So it's about someone with 7/8 Russian and 1/8 German ancestry, where you ask for the characteristics of that German ancestry? As for Prussia, do you refer to East Prussia, where there are three averages? If so, there were such different populations. The averages are based of few samples just, but in tendency that will be applicable, yes. As for the variation there will always remain some question marks. But for East Prussia Masuria f. i. there are two confirmed deeply rooted kits, one from the easternmost and one from the westernmost area and they both score very similar.

As for "German ethnicity on paper": I don't know what you think about German ethnicity. It's not defined by gentics, but by historical development and whether these individuals traditionally speak German or not. Seemimgly they did. So they are Germans. Genetics play also a role, but just as making the borders of what historically und undisputedly became German. Genetics beyond that border can not really be German, but what you describe lies within these borders.

[vbnetkhio]

is that possible to such a big degree?

Yes, I have seen collections of Balkan results from the same village or micro-region where a component can have a range of 9, 10, or even 11.

That's simply how fully intermixed populations act in genetic software, including G25.

Big immigration centres with free intermarriage have even bigger ranges.

[Peterski]

This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.

His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.

People from this whole region (especially from the eastern half of it, between Storkow-Beskow) will all have similar results:

https://www.sorabicon.de/kulturlexikon/artikel/prov_ib2_m3d_r3b/

https://www.sorabicon.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SKL-Kurmaerkisch-wendischer_Distrikt_00_Karte-Iris-Brankackowa.jpg

[Jana]

West Prussia in particular has large sample size for our standards (like 10 or something), Pomerania isn't bad either. Yes. Prussian averages look fine.

[Leto]

Thanks. :)



So it's about someone with 7/8 Russian and 1/8 German ancestry, where you ask for the characteristics of that German ancestry? As for Prussia, do you refer to East Prussia, where there are three averages? If so, there were such different populations. The averages are based of few samples just, but in tendency that will be applicable, yes. As for the variation there will always remain some question marks. But for East Prussia Masuria f. i. there are two confirmed deeply rooted kits, one from the easternmost and one from the westernmost area and they both score very similar.

As for "German ethnicity on paper": I don't know what you think about German ethnicity. It's not defined by gentics, but by historical development and whether these individuals traditionally speak German or not. Seemimgly they did. So they are Germans. Genetics play also a role, but just as making the borders of what historically und undisputedly became German. Genetics beyond that border can not really be German, but what you describe lies within these borders.
Yes, I was asking whether in the case of that woman her German was undetectable by Gedmatch because it was initially heavily Eastern European. 1/8 is not a lot, unless it's Chinese, black or Amerindian. But she did get 6.8% "broadly Northwestern European" back in 2017. No idea about her current results, I think she is more into genealogy than race and doesn't care much about ancestry compositions.

[Peterski]

would just be a personal variation (is that possible to such a big degree?)

Personal variation can be quite big even in small areas. Carloforte is a good example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carloforte

^^^ This is the only town on San Pietro Island:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pietro_Island

The town has just 6000 inhabitants of whom 25 were tested and DNA was published.

All of 25 people are native to this population - of course. Here their G25 coordinates:


Carloforte:Carloforte1,0.118376,0.140143,0.029415,-0.015181,0.032621,-0.001673,-0.004935,0.007384,0.014112,0.023873,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018434,-0.012661,-0.000136,0.004508,0.006389,-0.00076,0.005279,0.002126,0.00025,0.001607,-0.002095,0.007109,-0.000599
Carloforte:Carloforte2,0.111547,0.149283,0.019987,-0.024225,0.031083,0.000558,-0.008695,-0.005307,0.014521,0.040456,0.002923,0.006294,-0.011447,-0.012799,-0.011808,0.005834,0.022296,0.001394,-0.004651,-0.002876,0.003619,0.002473,-0.001725,0.00482,0.002754
Carloforte:Carloforte3,0.1161,0.157407,0.025644,-0.019057,0.023081,-0.000279,0.00235,0.002077,0.008181,0.033349,0.0032 48,0.005395,-0.014866,-0.005092,-0.0038,-0.003713,-0.00326,0.001774,0.002137,-0.008129,-0.006364,0.003586,0.000986,0.003253,0.009819
Carloforte:Carloforte4,0.129758,0.155376,0.025267,-0.016796,0.027082,-0.004462,0.00799,-0.009461,0.005318,0.02278,-0.002436,0.004796,-0.017839,-0.006193,0.004614,0.001458,0.002999,0.00228,0.0099 3,-0.000875,-0.000749,0.001978,-0.004807,-0.000723,-0.001078
Carloforte:Carloforte5,0.1161,0.146236,0.023759,-0.011628,0.033545,-0.004741,-0.00235,-0.007615,0.010431,0.029887,0.004872,0.01154,-0.008028,-0.007019,-0.001221,-0.012066,-0.005085,0.007095,0.006662,-0.002126,0.005989,0.004946,-0.001356,0.006145,0.004191
Carloforte:Carloforte6,0.114961,0.148267,0.027907,-0.011951,0.030775,-0.007809,-0.00141,-0.001615,0.017589,0.019681,0.008282,0.000899,-0.01219,-0.009496,-0.0019,0.020684,0.01356,-0.003674,0.004525,-0.00075,-0.008859,-0.004081,0.000616,-0.001687,0.000359
Carloforte:Carloforte7,0.119514,0.150298,0.024513,-0.018411,0.043085,-0.008088,0,-0.007846,0.010226,0.033349,0.000162,0.01079,-0.017988,-0.007707,-0.008143,-0.010209,0.002347,-0.006714,0.005405,-0.006128,-0.003494,-0.001607,-0.000986,-0.006627,0.000239
Carloforte:Carloforte8,0.120652,0.153345,0.009805,-0.02907,0.039084,-0.001394,0.00658,-0.001385,0.001636,0.026424,-0.005196,0.014537,-0.020367,-0.009496,-0.005565,0.010342,0.025164,-0.000507,0.003771,0.000625,-0.002246,0.000989,-0.00493,-0.002771,-0.003233
Carloforte:Carloforte9,0.124067,0.152329,0.013576,-0.017119,0.034468,-0.009482,0.005875,0.003,0.007976,0.030069,-0.005521,0.006145,-0.01219,-0.009083,0.000136,0.009812,0.014603,0.000127,0.000 754,0.008004,-0.000374,0.002968,-0.005546,0.005061,0.00012
Carloforte:Carloforte10,0.108132,0.150298,0.022627 ,-0.019703,0.025235,-0.011992,0.006815,-0.003692,0.008999,0.018953,0.009256,0.013638,-0.013528,-0.003165,0.005429,-0.001989,0.007823,-0.000253,0.004777,-0.002501,-0.003993,-0.003339,0.004683,-0.003133,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte11,0.1161,0.14319,0.021873,-0.018734,0.031698,0,0.009635,0.003231,0.009408,0.0 27518,0.00341,0.009591,-0.010704,-0.001789,0.002579,0.007558,0.002738,-0.004054,0.005656,-0.011756,0.004492,0.000742,-0.001602,-0.006748,0.00455
Carloforte:Carloforte12,0.126344,0.153345,0.026776 ,-0.024871,0.037853,-0.00753,0.00752,-0.003,0.01943,0.038452,0.002273,0.009741,-0.024083,-0.005505,0.002986,-0.001193,0.010561,0.000507,-0.000628,-0.007379,0.011605,0.012242,-0.006409,-0.003976,0.001437
Carloforte:Carloforte13,0.119514,0.147252,0.022627 ,-0.018734,0.025235,-0.012829,-0.003995,0.002077,0.007772,0.030616,0.007145,0.008 243,-0.007433,-0.007294,-0.000136,-0.001061,0.010431,-0.003041,0.00729,-0.006378,0.007487,0.001978,-0.002465,0.000241,0.003353
Carloforte:Carloforte14,0.126344,0.157407,0.02489,-0.036822,0.04647,-0.019801,0.004935,0.002769,0.022702,0.034078,0.006 82,0.01079,-0.016947,0,-0.017236,-0.004773,0.013951,0.000127,0.00352,-0.001751,0.004492,0.000247,-0.004807,-0.007471,-0.009939
Carloforte:Carloforte15,0.122929,0.142174,0.023381 ,-0.022933,0.018465,0.000279,0.00235,0.006231,0.0069 54,0.035354,0.001949,0.006444,-0.014717,-0.010872,-0.000407,0.000265,0.003651,0.004307,0.005028,-0.004752,-0.002995,0.000495,-0.003697,-0.007712,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte16,0.127482,0.150298,0.012068 ,-0.029716,0.032621,-0.00502,-0.00141,-0.004154,0.013703,0.032985,0.004222,0.010341,-0.016799,-0.000826,-0.000814,-0.01127,-0.015516,0.008235,0.005531,-0.007128,-0.000873,-0.003586,-0.008134,-0.002771,-0.005628
Carloforte:Carloforte17,0.126344,0.150298,0.016216 ,-0.021641,0.030159,-0.010319,-0.003995,-0.001846,0.017589,0.02606,-0.001949,0.004646,-0.012339,-0.007019,-0.00475,-0.001061,0.018906,0.003547,0.000377,-0.009129,-0.005116,0.003215,-0.001725,-0.001084,0.002754
Carloforte:Carloforte18,0.117238,0.148267,0.025644 ,-0.026809,0.026774,-0.012271,0.001175,-0.000231,0.01309,0.04155,-0.000487,0.017085,-0.013082,-0.013074,-0.000271,-0.013789,-0.005867,0.010388,0.001508,-0.01138,0.006988,0.001113,-0.004067,-0.010363,0.008622
Carloforte:Carloforte19,0.118376,0.140143,0.027907 ,-0.02261,0.025235,-0.009482,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.018203,0.040821,0.004872,0.008992,-0.019326,-0.014038,0.003664,0.011535,0.017471,-0.00266,0.016341,0.006628,-0.004742,-0.008037,-0.010476,0.005422,-0.002275
Carloforte:Carloforte20,0.124067,0.14319,0.014331,-0.011628,0.031083,-0.010877,0.012221,-0.002308,0.011862,0.021686,-0.004709,0.008692,-0.002081,0,-0.002986,-0.015646,-0.017471,0.003674,0.000503,-0.017258,0.002246,0.00272,-0.002835,-0.005422,-0.001317
Carloforte:Carloforte21,0.120652,0.151314,0.019233 ,-0.014212,0.030467,-0.014223,0.003995,0.000923,0.012067,0.036083,0.000 162,0.010041,-0.00996,-0.00523,-0.013572,-0.009679,0.001173,0.004181,0.013073,-0.005253,0.001747,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.008555,0.006107
Carloforte:Carloforte22,0.12862,0.142174,0.022627,-0.019703,0.035083,-0.005299,0.011516,0,0.020248,0.030616,0.003897,0.0 08692,-0.015015,0.001239,-0.006379,-0.00769,0.005215,-0.010515,0.009553,0.002626,-0.001373,-0.000866,0.00037,-0.005061,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte23,0.120652,0.145221,0.01961,-0.010013,0.035391,-0.003347,-0.003525,-0.002308,0.010635,0.033349,-0.005521,0.013188,-0.012339,-0.00234,0.004343,0.004773,0.004563,0.007855,-0.005656,-0.01013,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.011339,0.003615,-0.005508
Carloforte:Carloforte24,0.120652,0.155376,0.015462 ,-0.02584,0.038469,-0.016733,0.000235,0.001846,0.006136,0.045923,0.003 248,0.010041,-0.015312,-0.007156,-0.005022,-0.009546,-0.012647,0.006334,0.013324,-0.004877,0.000125,0.004946,-0.006902,-0.015303,-0.00012
Carloforte:Carloforte25,0.110408,0.15436,0.012822,-0.018734,0.026159,-0.011156,0.000705,0.000692,0.012271,0.0277,-0.001624,0.008992,-0.011596,-0.006331,-0.008143,-0.000663,0.002868,0.00114,0.002263,-0.011631,-0.000374,-0.002226,-0.002465,0.00482,0.005029

^^^
They cover a rather big area in PCA considering that they are a town of just 6000 inhabitants:

https://i.imgur.com/XCXox51.png

And Single Distances:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte1


0.02076565
Swiss_Italian


0.02384261
Italian_Bergamo


0.02424425
Italian_Veneto


0.02527748
Italian_Piedmont


0.02594531
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte2


0.03044388
French_Corsica


0.03581507
Italian_Tuscany


0.03617303
Italian_Umbria


0.03803864
Swiss_Italian


0.03911758
Italian_Piedmont

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte3


0.02387248
Italian_Piedmont


0.02429385
Italian_Lombardy


0.02456843
Italian_Bergamo


0.02670098
Italian_Tuscany


0.02693378
French_Corsica

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte4


0.02291045
Italian_Piedmont


0.02526814
Italian_Bergamo


0.02565576
Italian_Tuscany


0.02580813
Italian_Veneto


0.02704315
Italian_Lombardy

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte5


0.02128402
Italian_Lombardy


0.02380439
Italian_Piedmont


0.02391717
Italian_Bergamo


0.02725499
Italian_Liguria


0.02845066
Italian_Tuscany

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte6


0.03152175
Swiss_Italian


0.03381633
Italian_Veneto


0.03514316
Italian_Piedmont


0.03524529
Italian_Tuscany


0.03571294
French_Corsica

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte7


0.02173378
French_Corsica


0.02445750
Italian_Bergamo


0.02519527
Italian_Lombardy


0.02824611
Italian_Piedmont


0.03109304
Italian_Tuscany

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte8


0.03575022
Italian_Tuscany


0.03578405
French_Corsica


0.03597875
Italian_Umbria


0.04011912
Italian_Piedmont


0.04080416
Italian_Lazio

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte9


0.02516669
Italian_Tuscany


0.02622731
French_Corsica


0.02726079
Italian_Piedmont


0.02896952
Swiss_Italian


0.02980916
Italian_Umbria

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte10


0.02627606
Italian_Tuscany


0.02745036
Italian_Piedmont


0.03023937
Italian_Umbria


0.03084395
Italian_Marche


0.03179275
Swiss_Italian

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte11


0.02511807
Italian_Piedmont


0.02576543
Swiss_Italian


0.02805001
Italian_Tuscany


0.02836635
Italian_Veneto


0.02845338
Italian_Bergamo

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte12


0.02851555
French_Corsica


0.03483941
Italian_Bergamo


0.03681448
Italian_Lombardy


0.03748679
Italian_Piedmont


0.03766467
Spanish_Menorca

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte13


0.02153072
Italian_Tuscany


0.02298427
French_Corsica


0.02300930
Italian_Piedmont


0.02355354
Swiss_Italian


0.02703136
Italian_Umbria

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte14


0.03442426
French_Corsica


0.04626123
Italian_Bergamo


0.04640215
Italian_Tuscany


0.04780849
Italian_Piedmont


0.04854738
Italian_Lombardy

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte15


0.02652787
Italian_Piedmont


0.02778134
Italian_Tuscany


0.02825599
French_Corsica


0.02879901
Swiss_Italian


0.02972037
Italian_Umbria

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte16


0.03024992
Italian_Lombardy


0.03075323
French_Corsica


0.03394508
Italian_Marche


0.03418593
Italian_Piedmont


0.03430056
Italian_Tuscany

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte17


0.02158485
French_Corsica


0.02389443
Italian_Tuscany


0.02682010
Italian_Piedmont


0.02707020
Italian_Umbria


0.02889627
Swiss_Italian

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte18


0.03190517
French_Corsica


0.03286354
Italian_Lombardy


0.03790808
Italian_Bergamo


0.03863355
Italian_Piedmont


0.04009337
Italian_Tuscany

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte19


0.03730579
French_Corsica


0.04114321
Swiss_Italian


0.04138366
Italian_Tuscany


0.04330407
Italian_Piedmont


0.04355405
Italian_Bergamo

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte20


0.03239653
Italian_Lombardy


0.03386590
Italian_Piedmont


0.03528806
Italian_Liguria


0.03830456
Italian_Bergamo


0.03905739
Italian_Marche

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte21


0.02555641
French_Corsica


0.02928222
Italian_Bergamo


0.02940646
Italian_Lombardy


0.03012987
Italian_Piedmont


0.03176286
Italian_Tuscany

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte22


0.02933245
French_Corsica


0.03050308
Italian_Piedmont


0.03118694
Italian_Bergamo


0.03176968
Italian_Lombardy


0.03215301
Swiss_Italian

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte23


0.02545043
Italian_Piedmont


0.02759564
Italian_Veneto


0.02768242
Italian_Bergamo


0.02782674
French_Corsica


0.02949303
Italian_Lombardy

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte24


0.03331241
French_Corsica


0.03688312
Italian_Lombardy


0.04171490
Italian_Bergamo


0.04187689
Italian_Tuscany


0.04218824
Italian_Piedmont

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Carloforte:Carloforte25


0.01896649
Italian_Tuscany


0.02180525
French_Corsica


0.02281220
Italian_Piedmont


0.02306529
Italian_Umbria


0.02384562
Italian_Marche

</tbody>

I can also post their K13, K15, Dodecad K12b etc. results if you want.

[Leto]

Are they mixed with mainland Italians? The Carloforte folks. The island is administered by Sardinia but they don't score it as their first pop.

[Peterski]

Are they mixed with mainland Italians? The Carloforte folks. The island is administered by Sardinia but they don't score it as their first pop.

They basically are mainland Italians. Their ancestors were from the town of Pegli in Liguria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegli - nowadays a suburb of Genoa

In 1541 they left Pegli and settled on the island of Tabarca near Tunisia, to fish for coral:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabarca - they lived here for almost 200 years

Tabarka Island in the 1600s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabarka#History

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Tarbarka_17th_century.jpg/320px-Tarbarka_17th_century.jpg

In the 1730s coral deposits near Tabarca were exhausted and they had to move again.

They found coral near San Pietro Island & asked King of Piedmont-Sardinia to move there.

Finally they settled in San Pietro Island in 1739 and established the town of Carloforte.

Carloforte is named after King Carlo (Charles) Emmanuel III who let them settle there.

=====

It seems that they have not mixed much with Sardinians, only a little bit.

[MoroLP]

Please replace Croatian averages with the following:



Croat,28.08,33.07,15.25,7.68,12.16,1.27,0.55,0.27, 0.52,0.55,0.40,0.14,0.11
Croat_Dalmatia,26.36,31.49,16.09,8.84,13.31,1.57,0 .44,0.30,0.54,0.48,0.35,0.10,0.11
Croat_Bosnia,26.51,32.35,15.57,8.02,13.77,1.43,0.5 9,0.29,0.49,0.48,0.34,0.10,0.07
Croat_Herzegovina,24.93,32.69,15.99,8.60,14.10,1.2 8,0.55,0.19,0.55,0.48,0.40,0.04,0.11
Croat_Lika,27.50,32.41,15.69,7.72,12.86,1.28,0.35, 0.19,0.69,0.56,0.55,0.08,0.12
Croat_Istria,27.52,31.63,15.79,7.79,13.90,1.06,0.5 2,0.38,0.48,0.37,0.35,0.18,0.05
Croat_Kvarner,28.57,32.45,14.23,8.28,12.57,1.24,0. 49,0.36,0.68,0.23,0.43,0.13,0.12
Croat_GorskiKotar,31.45,32.69,14.41,7.40,10.30,1.1 9,0.67,0.29,0.54,0.52,0.30,0.13,0.11
Croat_Slavonia,26.53,33.17,15.98,7.53,13.91,0.80,0 .77,0.17,0.51,0.56,0.43,0.02,0.07
Croat_Central,29.40,34.03,14.89,7.02,10.88,1.28,0. 52,0.22,0.47,0.45,0.41,0.24,0.13
Croat_Northwest,31.23,34.80,13.68,6.85,8.93,1.29,0 .54,0.44,0.50,0.97,0.41,0.20,0.16

[Jana]

Distance to: Croat

1.24855917 Croat_Lika
1.52797251 Croat_Kvarner
2.21226129 Croat_Central
2.30796447 Hungarian_Alföld
2.41190796 Croat_Istria
2.41528466 Croat_Bosnia
2.51531310 Croat_Slavonia
2.99013378 Croat_Dalmatia
3.28003049 Hungarian
3.40313091 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
3.53619852 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.90471510 Croat_Herzegovina
3.94194115 Bosniak
3.95455434 Bosniak_Krajina_West
3.97209013 Croat_Gorski_Kotar
4.23433584 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
4.62671590 Csángó-Ceangău
4.63364867 Serb_Republika_Srpska
4.64534175 Hungarian_North
4.77980125 Romanian_North-Moldavia
4.80205164 Moldovan_North
4.85635666 Austrian_Carinthia
4.98188719 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
5.16860716 Croat_Northwest
5.31161934 Slovene

[Jana]

Distance to: Croat_Dalmatia

1.40103533 Croat_Bosnia
1.79008380 Croat_Istria
1.88584199 Serb_Republika_Srpska
1.98408669 Croat_Lika
2.04763278 Bosniak
2.07149704 Croat_Herzegovina
2.32038790 Romanian_North-Moldavia
2.38325408 Croat_Slavonia
2.66078936 Bosniak_Krajina_West
2.73384345 Serb_Croatia
2.99013378 Croat
3.04983606 Romanian_Maramureș
3.08176897 Serb_West
3.16311555 Bosniak_Southeast
3.21418730 Croat_Kvarner
3.51262010 Moldovan_Central
3.53385059 Serb
3.55066191 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.61293509 Moldovan
4.02385387 Serb_Central
4.08626969 Csángó-Ceangău
4.09086788 Moldovan_North
4.24178029 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.28856619 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
4.37170447 Serb_Vojvodina

Distance to: Croat_Bosnia

1.25123939 Croat_Slavonia
1.35118467 Croat_Istria
1.40103533 Croat_Dalmatia
1.44903416 Croat_Lika
1.81113224 Croat_Herzegovina
1.93134668 Bosniak
2.41528466 Croat
2.48219661 Serb_Republika_Srpska
2.65697196 Bosniak_Krajina_West
2.75163588 Romanian_North-Moldavia
2.77811087 Croat_Kvarner
3.28779561 Serb_Croatia
3.51055551 Bosniak_Southeast
3.57937145 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
3.62818136 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.85151918 Moldovan_Central
3.91117629 Moldovan_North
3.93357344 Romanian_Maramureș
3.98035174 Moldovan
4.00012500 Serb_West
4.25690028 Serb
4.40082947 Serb_Central
4.55008791 Hungarian_Alföld
4.58810418 Croat_Central
4.76581577 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely

Distance to: Croat_Herzegovina

0.98096891 Bosniak
1.63966460 Serb_Republika_Srpska
1.81113224 Croat_Bosnia
2.06436431 Croat_Slavonia
2.07149704 Croat_Dalmatia
2.35985169 Romanian_North-Moldavia
2.77834483 Moldovan
2.78797417 Moldovan_Central
2.94888114 Croat_Istria
2.95465734 Bosniak_Southeast
3.01330383 Serb_Croatia
3.02910878 Croat_Lika
3.14093935 Moldovan_North
3.54216036 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.65282083 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
3.70956871 Bosniak_Krajina_West
3.73368451 Serb
3.82536273 Serb_West
3.90471510 Croat
4.02888322 Serb_Central
4.16941243 Romanian_Maramureș
4.35553671 Croat_Kvarner
4.62725621 Serb_Vojvodina
5.32472535 Serb_Herzegovina
5.55843503 Serb_South

Distance to: Croat_Lika

1.24855917 Croat
1.39778396 Croat_Istria
1.44903416 Croat_Bosnia
1.78921771 Croat_Slavonia
1.96260032 Croat_Kvarner
1.98408669 Croat_Dalmatia
3.02910878 Croat_Herzegovina
3.04276190 Bosniak_Krajina_West
3.17474408 Bosniak
3.29899985 Hungarian_Alföld
3.37940823 Croat_Central
3.54897168 Serb_Republika_Srpska
3.61643471 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.74611799 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
3.81342366 Romanian_North-Moldavia
4.21308675 Hungarian
4.30562423 Csángó-Ceangău
4.31064960 Serb_Croatia
4.42909697 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.57788161 Moldovan_North
4.60322713 Romanian_Maramureș
4.67609880 Bosniak_Southeast
4.71971397 Serb_West
4.91782472 Croat_Gorski_Kotar
4.99406648 Moldovan_Central

Distance to: Croat_Istria

1.35118467 Croat_Bosnia
1.39778396 Croat_Lika
1.79008380 Croat_Dalmatia
1.89425447 Bosniak_Krajina_West
1.92330445 Croat_Slavonia
2.41190796 Croat
2.51487574 Croat_Kvarner
2.94888114 Croat_Herzegovina
3.06577886 Serb_Republika_Srpska
3.11891007 Bosniak
3.34110760 Romanian_North-Moldavia
3.35498137 Serb_Croatia
3.69314229 Romanian_Maramureș
3.82393776 Bosniak_Southeast
3.85114269 Serb_West
3.99147842 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.30204602 Hungarian_Alföld
4.35298748 Serb
4.43132034 Serb_Central
4.46226400 Croat_Central
4.47631545 Csángó-Ceangău
4.58772275 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.61675211 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
4.70088290 Moldovan_Central
4.83045547 Moldovan

Distance to: Croat_Kvarner

1.52797251 Croat
1.96260032 Croat_Lika
2.51487574 Croat_Istria
2.56526802 Hungarian_Alföld
2.77811087 Croat_Bosnia
2.86213207 Croat_Central
3.15180900 Hungarian
3.21418730 Croat_Dalmatia
3.24978461 Croat_Slavonia
3.47982758 Bosniak_Krajina_West
3.80423448 Croat_Gorski_Kotar
3.92782382 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
4.03659510 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
4.19909514 Bosniak
4.33049651 Csángó-Ceangău
4.35553671 Croat_Herzegovina
4.39461034 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.39621428 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.65478249 Romanian_North-Moldavia
4.79842683 Austrian_Carinthia
4.87201190 Hungarian_North
4.87635109 Serb_Republika_Srpska
5.03535500 Moldovan_North
5.33459464 Romanian_Maramureș
5.36594819 Croat_Northwest

Distance to: Croat_Gorski_Kotar

0.96400207 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
1.31068684 Hungarian
1.58306664 Austrian_Carinthia
2.34397099 Hungarian_Alföld
2.46633331 Slovene
2.60368969 Croat_Central
2.73601901 Croat_Northwest
3.44132242 Hungarian_North
3.60118036 Austrian_Styria
3.80423448 Croat_Kvarner
3.97209013 Croat
4.91782472 Croat_Lika
5.41361247 Slovak
5.62116536 German_County_Glatz
5.62736173 Croat_Istria
5.85011111 Csángó-Ceangău
6.13110920 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
6.19373070 Croat_Bosnia
6.24929596 Czech
6.26597159 German_Lower_Silesia
6.33721548 Croat_Slavonia
6.34093053 Lemko_Poland
6.44256160 Croat_Dalmatia
6.58604585 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
6.60611838 Bosniak_Krajina_West

Distance to: Croat_Slavonia

1.25123939 Croat_Bosnia
1.78921771 Croat_Lika
1.92330445 Croat_Istria
2.06436431 Croat_Herzegovina
2.38325408 Croat_Dalmatia
2.51531310 Croat
2.55955074 Bosniak
3.06540373 Serb_Republika_Srpska
3.24978461 Croat_Kvarner
3.33456144 Bosniak_Krajina_West
3.43215676 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
3.63470769 Romanian_North-Moldavia
3.84745370 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.96930724 Serb_Croatia
4.11117988 Bosniak_Southeast
4.21757039 Moldovan_North
4.46845611 Croat_Central
4.51129693 Moldovan_Central
4.60977223 Moldovan
4.66479367 Hungarian_Alföld
4.66842586 Serb_West
4.88882399 Romanian_Maramureș
4.90350895 Serb
4.99060117 Serb_Central
5.57331140 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely

Distance to: Croat_Central

1.46621963 Hungarian_Alföld
2.14883689 Hungarian
2.21226129 Croat
2.60368969 Croat_Gorski_Kotar
2.75896720 Hungarian_North
2.86213207 Croat_Kvarner
2.89428748 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
3.09192497 Croat_Northwest
3.16257806 Austrian_Carinthia
3.22347638 Slovene
3.37940823 Croat_Lika
4.37223055 Lemko_Poland
4.40917226 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
4.46226400 Croat_Istria
4.46845611 Croat_Slavonia
4.58810418 Croat_Bosnia
4.72419305 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.98632129 Slovak
5.14556119 Croat_Dalmatia
5.50817574 Ukrainian_Carpathians
5.80289583 Csángó-Ceangău
5.89964406 Bosniak_Krajina_West
5.93588241 Austrian_Styria
5.99173598 Croat_Herzegovina
6.01993355 Bosniak

Distance to: Croat_Northwest

1.73591474 Slovene
2.06995169 Hungarian_North
2.65670849 Austrian_Carinthia
2.71000000 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
2.73601901 Croat_Gorski_Kotar
2.79749888 Slovak
2.99751564 Hungarian
3.09192497 Croat_Central
3.38659121 Hungarian_Alföld
3.93206053 Czech
4.45887878 German_Lower_Silesia
4.70651676 Austrian_Styria
4.85287544 Lemko_Poland
5.16860716 Croat
5.36594819 Croat_Kvarner
5.97901330 Ukrainian_Carpathians
6.34077282 Croat_Lika
6.42953342 German_County_Glatz
6.49850752 Ukrainian_Galicia
6.67619652 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
7.05573526 Bosniak_Krajina_East
7.36769978 Croat_Istria
7.46106561 German_Thuringia_East
7.47493813 Croat_Slavonia
7.54687352 Croat_Bosnia

[MoroLP]

Distance to: Croat

1.24855917 Croat_Lika
1.52797251 Croat_Kvarner
2.21226129 Croat_Central
2.30796447 Hungarian_Alföld
2.41190796 Croat_Istria
2.41528466 Croat_Bosnia
2.51531310 Croat_Slavonia
2.99013378 Croat_Dalmatia
3.28003049 Hungarian
3.40313091 Bosniak_Central_Northeast
3.53619852 Bosniak_Krajina_East
3.90471510 Croat_Herzegovina
3.94194115 Bosniak
3.95455434 Bosniak_Krajina_West
3.97209013 Croat_Gorski_Kotar
4.23433584 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
4.62671590 Csángó-Ceangău
4.63364867 Serb_Republika_Srpska
4.64534175 Hungarian_North
4.77980125 Romanian_North-Moldavia
4.80205164 Moldovan_North
4.85635666 Austrian_Carinthia
4.98188719 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
5.16860716 Croat_Northwest
5.31161934 Slovene

Vahaduo PCA (https://ibb.co/r0nFvsR) - important to notice Croatian_Northern and Croatian_Southern subnational genetic clusters. They are made of regional averages North and South of the Croatian national average. More specifically, Chakavian and Western Shtokavian Croats make a single genetic cluster. Chakavian Croats are not closer to Kajkavian Croats. Bosniaks as Western Shtokavian speakers have averages that are mostly much closer to Chakavian and Western Shtokavian Croats as well as Croatian_Southern than to Eastern Shtokavian Serbian or Montenegrin regional and national averages.

[Jana]

Vahaduo PCA (https://ibb.co/r0nFvsR)

Looks fine :)

[rothaer]

Yes, I have seen collections of Balkan results from the same village or micro-region where a component can have a range of 9, 10, or even 11.

That's simply how fully intermixed populations act in genetic software, including G25.

Big immigration centres with free intermarriage have even bigger ranges.

She has a rural ancestry. Deviations from neighboring Saxony (we don't yet have any for Brandenburg in general) values for North Atlantic and Baltic are 9 and 14 respectively and from neighboring Lower Silesia 7 and 8 respectively and from neighboring Northwest Brandenburg 15 and 13 respectively. (I know, this does not necessarly mean she is outside of the range (told by you) for the local population. But I consider that range very big for an population, intermarrying for centuries).

Well, I'll be extremely curious for another kit from the Beeskow area.

[rothaer]

Yes, I was asking whether in the case of that woman her German was undetectable by Gedmatch because it was initially heavily Eastern European. 1/8 is not a lot, unless it's Chinese, black or Amerindian. (..)

Exactly. I guess it's essentially undetectable in a Russian context. In a context of 7/8 Chinese it would likely be fully visible.

[Peterski]

Carloforte in K13:


Carloforte1,32.40,11.21,26.71,7.13,16.52,3.32,0.02 ,0.58,1.37,0,0,0.74,0
Carloforte10,29.58,8.13,25.17,10,22.66,1.64,0,0,0. 65,0,0.45,1.72,0
Carloforte11,29.17,11.05,24.66,8.89,20.40,3.65,0,1 .04,0.33,0,0,0,0.79
Carloforte12,34.11,5.54,31.73,7.14,17.92,3.33,0,0, 0.23,0,0,0,0
Carloforte13,27.86,12.67,24.16,6.07,23.87,3.97,0,0 ,0.34,0.24,0.57,0,0.26
Carloforte14,26.40,9.18,34.21,3.27,22.22,3.95,0,0. 67,0,0,0.10,0,0
Carloforte15,30.04,9.17,26.07,12.17,19.33,0.45,1.4 8,0,1.29,0,0,0,0
Carloforte16,31.74,6.29,25.52,7.60,24.75,2.82,0.48 ,0.21,0.42,0.17,0,0,0
Carloforte17,27.62,9.60,28.36,10.03,20.72,3.13,0,0 ,0.08,0.44,0.02,0,0
Carloforte18,29.91,5.33,31.81,6.74,20.03,3.86,0,0, 2.00,0.17,0,0,0.15
Carloforte19,29.96,5.89,30.42,8.64,17.99,3.90,0,0, 1.39,1.12,0,0.40,0.30
Carloforte2,28.54,6.71,29.76,6.00,23.34,3.00,0.38, 0,0,1.42,0,0,0.86
Carloforte20,27.47,14.74,23.21,7.97,18.24,5.02,2.1 7,0,0,0,1.00,0.19,0
Carloforte21,25.82,11.77,27.98,7.12,21.69,3.51,0.2 8,0,0.44,0.02,1.02,0,0.34
Carloforte22,28.20,10.80,29.97,7.19,18.33,3.45,0.9 7,1.09,0,0,0,0,0
Carloforte23,31.80,10.55,28.25,7.87,17.12,1.69,1.0 3,0.26,0,0,0.94,0,0.49
Carloforte24,28.45,4.03,32.59,7.80,22.90,2.75,0,0, 0,0,1.47,0,0
Carloforte25,27.17,10.05,26.95,7.58,21.86,3.90,1.1 4,0,0,0,0,1.36,0
Carloforte3,29.62,8.20,29.44,10.27,18.91,2.32,0.56 ,0,0.12,0,0,0,0.55
Carloforte4,36.26,8.15,21.86,15.26,15.39,3.07,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
Carloforte5,29.89,14.46,23.19,6.30,20.28,3.64,0.67 ,0.11,0,0.24,0.40,0,0.81
Carloforte6,24.38,15.23,28.05,8.17,19.04,2.70,0,0, 0.63,0.99,0.30,0.50,0
Carloforte7,24.93,10.25,34.71,7.32,19.80,1.03,0,0. 63,0,0.61,0.57,0,0.15
Carloforte8,27.38,6.97,29.31,13.55,19.03,2.59,0,0. 90,0,0.25,0,0.02,0
Carloforte9,32.25,7.67,25.71,8.55,21.85,3.26,0.01, 0,0,0,0.69,0,0

Ranges for components:

North Atlantic - 24.38 to 36.26

Baltic - 4.03 to 15.23

West Med - 21.86 to 34.71

West Asian - 3.27 to 15.26

East Med - 15.39 to 24.75

Red Sea - 0.45 to 5.02

Etc.

[vbnetkhio]

She has a rural ancestry. Deviations from neighboring Saxony (we don't yet have any for Brandenburg in general) values for North Atlantic and Baltic are 9 and 14 respectively and from neighboring Lower Silesia 7 and 8 respectively and from neighboring Northwest Brandenburg 15 and 13 respectively. (I know, this does not necessarly mean she is outside of the range (told by you) for the local population. But I consider that range very big for an population, intermarrying for centuries).

Well, I'll be extremely curious for another kit from the Beeskow area.

what are the North Atlantic and Baltic ranges for Saxony and Thuringia? I guess something like Baltic 30-40, NA 33-43?

[Peterski]

what are the North Atlantic and Baltic ranges for Saxony and Thuringia? I guess something like Baltic 30-40, NA 33-43?

What is the chance that the Beeskow sample happens to be the most Slavic-shifted person in the area?

It is a randomly found sample, so by random probability she is most likely around the middle of distribution in her region.

There is 68.26% chance that she is average for her region (either slightly more or slightly less eastern):

https://i.imgur.com/Kgc8HPe.png

[rothaer]

People from this whole region (especially from the eastern half of it, between Storkow-Beskow) will all have similar results:

https://www.sorabicon.de/kulturlexikon/artikel/prov_ib2_m3d_r3b/

https://www.sorabicon.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SKL-Kurmaerkisch-wendischer_Distrikt_00_Karte-Iris-Brankackowa.jpg

Yes, maybe.

But before stating that this is the case one should check it or at least make visible that one is just stating an educated guess.

And the more you are emphasising with your Carloforte example the possibility of a just personal variation, the less you can conclude out of a single sample like the Beeskow woman. Let alone that the woman with known only ethnic German ancestry the last 200 years far back will fully descend from Sorbs. This is not impossible, but it violates every scientific approach to completely remove this question from discussion by labeling her a Sorb by own judgement (just beacuse the genetic result seems "perfect"). This is even more weird when you seemingly know that actual Sorbs score more "western"!

So ignoring actual Sorbs, because they score "too western" for your taste and instead declare an ethnic German with a "perfect" fitting result the only Sorb reference is a completely unacceptable acting. I can still not believe that this is not selfexplanatory. What's next, taking a Serb and label him Sorb if he delivers a perfect result for how White Serbs = Old Sorbs are assumed to have scored?

[Peterski]

But the more you are emphasising with your Carloforte example the possibility of a just personal variation

But there is 95% chance that a random sample is within 2 Standard Deviations from the mean, and 68% chance that within 1 SD.

So the chance that this particular sample is very different than the average memeber of the local population, is statistically low.

[Peterski]

you seemingly know that actual Sorbs score more "western"!

These other samples are Upper Sorbs, all from Kamenz, also a very specific regional group:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenz

First of all Lower Sorbs are not Upper Sorbs, secondly Upper Sorbs from Kamenz are not all Upper Sorbs.

This K13 "Sorb" average should actually be renamed "Upper_Sorb_Kamenz" to be accurate.

[rothaer]

What is the chance that the Beeskow sample happens to be the most Slavic-shifted person in the area?

It is a randomly found sample, so by random probability she is most likely around the middle of distribution in her region.

There is 68.26% chance that she is average for her region (either slightly more or slightly less eastern):

https://i.imgur.com/Kgc8HPe.png

I agree to that as a general approach.

But as she scores already abt. the maximum "Slavic-like" genetics among Slavs she will likely not be inmidst of the population spread. Just as a thought for estimation. Till we have have more data, it remains an open question.

[Peterski]

I agree to that as a general approach.

But as she scores already abt. the maximum "Slavic-like" genetics among Slavs she will likely not be inmidst of the population spread.

She does not score maximum among Slavs, she plots roughly in the middle of the Polish cluster in G25 North Europe PCA.

[Peterski]

Upper Sorbs from Kamenz (I wonder how many of them actually can speak Sorbian - Kamenz is on the edge of Sorbian language area, right?):


Sorb_Kamenz1,34.50,37.83,10.59,5.76,7.71,0.76,0,0, 0,1.84,0.71,0,0.30
Sorb_Kamenz2,32.96,42.32,6.81,6.32,10.17,0,0.89,0, 0.20,0.10,0.10,0.14,0
Sorb_Kamenz3,27.46,44.32,10.26,7.99,7.29,0,0,1.90, 0,0.78,0,0,0
Sorb_Kamenz4,37.93,38.42,8.88,4.70,7.70,0,1.66,0,0 .70,0,0,0,0
Sorb_Kamenz5,36.81,38.05,12.64,4.25,4.79,0.11,1.33 ,2.02,0,0,0,0,0
Sorb_Kamenz6,36.41,40.67,9.43,2.85,5.49,1.35,1.53, 0,0.59,1.26,0.08,0.35,0
Sorb_Kamenz7,31.72,45.36,8.38,4.21,5.41,0.73,3.44, 0,0,0.52,0,0.23,0
Sorb_Kamenz8,34.78,37.56,11.09,2.30,7.51,2.69,2.16 ,0,0.68,0.80,0,0,0.43
Sorb_Kamenz9,32.57,44.09,12.97,5.29,3.24,0,0.49,0, 0.42,0.47,0,0.28,0.18

New Sorb_Kamenz (or it can also be called Upper_Sorb_Kamenz) average:


Sorb_Kamenz,33.90,40.96,10.12,4.85,6.59,0.63,1.28, 0.44,0.29,0.64,0.10,0.11,0.10

The current "Sorb" average is a bit different because it includes 9 Kamenz samples + 1 Beeskow sample.

[Jana]

what are the North Atlantic and Baltic ranges for Saxony and Thuringia? I guess something like Baltic 30-40, NA 33-43?

For Thuringia NA and Baltic ranges looks same, 10 each (33-44 NA, 27-37 Baltic)
not sure for Saxony, I have samples by locality names so not sure which are all Saxony. Rothaer could answer

[Peterski]

Rothaer,

How many people speak Sorbian in Kamenz and surroundings?

It seems that it might be a Germanized area just like Beeskow.

[Jana]

Sorb_Kamenz,33.90,40.96,10.12,4.85,6.59,0.63,1.28, 0.44,0.29,0.64,0.10,0.11,0.10

The current "Sorb" average is a bit different because it includes 9 Kamenz samples + 1 Beeskow sample.

Beeskow sample is German, your hundred times repeated manipulation won't become truth. I want this post of yours to stand so other people will know you are using fake samples which don't even belong that ethnic group.

Shameful liar.

[Peterski]

Beeskow sample is German

I emailed the guy and he responded that the sample is "Sorb, but from area where Sorbian culture was suppressed".

[Jana]

I emailed the guy and he responded that the sample is "Sorb, but from area where Sorbian culture was suppressed".

No, he didn't, he said only after you convinced him his mother is a Sorb. They had zero knowledge about Sorbs or oppressed Sorbian culture before you contacted them.

[Peterski]

No, he didn't, he said only after you convinced him his mother is a Sorb.

I wasn't convincing him to do or say anything, I just waited for his response. Go kiss your beloved Adolf Hitler's ass, Ustasholina.

[rothaer]

She does not score maximum among Slavs, she plots roughly in the middle of the Polish cluster in G25 North Europe PCA.

Okay.

[Jana]

I wasn't convincing him to do or say anything, I just waited for his response. Go kiss your beloved Adolf Hitler's ass, Ustasholina.

You are just madly jealous ethnic German is more genetically Slavic than you, so you try to make them present day Sorbs to more easily deal with your lack of Slavic DNA for a full ethnic Pole. :)

[Leto]

My favorite Germans are the least Slav-blooded actually. :cool: That's why I enjoy Volga German results for example. Politically Eastern Germans are much better though.

[Leto]

Carloforte in K13:


Carloforte1,32.40,11.21,26.71,7.13,16.52,3.32,0.02 ,0.58,1.37,0,0,0.74,0
Carloforte10,29.58,8.13,25.17,10,22.66,1.64,0,0,0. 65,0,0.45,1.72,0
Carloforte11,29.17,11.05,24.66,8.89,20.40,3.65,0,1 .04,0.33,0,0,0,0.79
Carloforte12,34.11,5.54,31.73,7.14,17.92,3.33,0,0, 0.23,0,0,0,0
Carloforte13,27.86,12.67,24.16,6.07,23.87,3.97,0,0 ,0.34,0.24,0.57,0,0.26
Carloforte14,26.40,9.18,34.21,3.27,22.22,3.95,0,0. 67,0,0,0.10,0,0
Carloforte15,30.04,9.17,26.07,12.17,19.33,0.45,1.4 8,0,1.29,0,0,0,0
Carloforte16,31.74,6.29,25.52,7.60,24.75,2.82,0.48 ,0.21,0.42,0.17,0,0,0
Carloforte17,27.62,9.60,28.36,10.03,20.72,3.13,0,0 ,0.08,0.44,0.02,0,0
Carloforte18,29.91,5.33,31.81,6.74,20.03,3.86,0,0, 2.00,0.17,0,0,0.15
Carloforte19,29.96,5.89,30.42,8.64,17.99,3.90,0,0, 1.39,1.12,0,0.40,0.30
Carloforte2,28.54,6.71,29.76,6.00,23.34,3.00,0.38, 0,0,1.42,0,0,0.86
Carloforte20,27.47,14.74,23.21,7.97,18.24,5.02,2.1 7,0,0,0,1.00,0.19,0
Carloforte21,25.82,11.77,27.98,7.12,21.69,3.51,0.2 8,0,0.44,0.02,1.02,0,0.34
Carloforte22,28.20,10.80,29.97,7.19,18.33,3.45,0.9 7,1.09,0,0,0,0,0
Carloforte23,31.80,10.55,28.25,7.87,17.12,1.69,1.0 3,0.26,0,0,0.94,0,0.49
Carloforte24,28.45,4.03,32.59,7.80,22.90,2.75,0,0, 0,0,1.47,0,0
Carloforte25,27.17,10.05,26.95,7.58,21.86,3.90,1.1 4,0,0,0,0,1.36,0
Carloforte3,29.62,8.20,29.44,10.27,18.91,2.32,0.56 ,0,0.12,0,0,0,0.55
Carloforte4,36.26,8.15,21.86,15.26,15.39,3.07,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
Carloforte5,29.89,14.46,23.19,6.30,20.28,3.64,0.67 ,0.11,0,0.24,0.40,0,0.81
Carloforte6,24.38,15.23,28.05,8.17,19.04,2.70,0,0, 0.63,0.99,0.30,0.50,0
Carloforte7,24.93,10.25,34.71,7.32,19.80,1.03,0,0. 63,0,0.61,0.57,0,0.15
Carloforte8,27.38,6.97,29.31,13.55,19.03,2.59,0,0. 90,0,0.25,0,0.02,0
Carloforte9,32.25,7.67,25.71,8.55,21.85,3.26,0.01, 0,0,0,0.69,0,0

Ranges for components:

North Atlantic - 24.38 to 36.26

Baltic - 4.03 to 15.23

West Med - 21.86 to 34.71

West Asian - 3.27 to 15.26

East Med - 15.39 to 24.75

Red Sea - 0.45 to 5.02

Etc.
Oh my fucking gosh, that's a hell of a lot of variation for such a tiny place! :eek:

[rothaer]

double.

[rothaer]

But there is 95% chance that a random sample is within 2 Standard Deviations from the mean, and 68% chance that within 1 SD.

So the chance that this particular sample is very different than the average memeber of the local population, is statistically low.

Yes.

[rothaer]

Upper Sorbs from Kamenz (I wonder how many of them actually can speak Sorbian - Kamenz is on the edge of Sorbian language area, right?):


Sorb_Kamenz1,34.50,37.83,10.59,5.76,7.71,0.76,0,0, 0,1.84,0.71,0,0.30
Sorb_Kamenz2,32.96,42.32,6.81,6.32,10.17,0,0.89,0, 0.20,0.10,0.10,0.14,0
Sorb_Kamenz3,27.46,44.32,10.26,7.99,7.29,0,0,1.90, 0,0.78,0,0,0
Sorb_Kamenz4,37.93,38.42,8.88,4.70,7.70,0,1.66,0,0 .70,0,0,0,0
Sorb_Kamenz5,36.81,38.05,12.64,4.25,4.79,0.11,1.33 ,2.02,0,0,0,0,0
Sorb_Kamenz6,36.41,40.67,9.43,2.85,5.49,1.35,1.53, 0,0.59,1.26,0.08,0.35,0
Sorb_Kamenz7,31.72,45.36,8.38,4.21,5.41,0.73,3.44, 0,0,0.52,0,0.23,0
Sorb_Kamenz8,34.78,37.56,11.09,2.30,7.51,2.69,2.16 ,0,0.68,0.80,0,0,0.43
Sorb_Kamenz9,32.57,44.09,12.97,5.29,3.24,0,0.49,0, 0.42,0.47,0,0.28,0.18

New Sorb_Kamenz (or it can also be called Upper_Sorb_Kamenz) average:


Sorb_Kamenz,33.90,40.96,10.12,4.85,6.59,0.63,1.28, 0.44,0.29,0.64,0.10,0.11,0.10

The current "Sorb" average is a bit different because it includes 9 Kamenz samples + 1 Beeskow sample.

I fully agree with that more thorough labeling of the academic Sorbs from Kamenz. Then we don't state anything that we don't know. Well, there are Sorbs in Kamenz area and it's a fringe area, but I'm not sure how this can bother you while it doesn't bother you that the Beeskow woman is not just an ethnic German but even outside the today Sorb area, see pic:

https://i.imgur.com/4JvABvJ.jpg

Maybe the Kamenz Sorbs are not representative for whatever Sorbs. I don't know. But if all people involved, Germans as well as Sorbs, do regard these people ethnic Sorbs, don't you find it alienating if there is coming a Pole from Wielkopolska and saying we can not use these individuals as references for Sorbs, because their genetic results seem "too western" for my imagination?

However, there will gladly be added:

Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz(9),33.90,40.96,10.12,4.85,6.59, 0.63,1.28,0.44,0.29,0.64,0.10,0.11,0.10

Who ist interested can elaborate where Kamenz is and that it's Upper Sorb, but as you see on the map

https://i.imgur.com/XcEah13.jpg

there are also intermediate dialects, so it looks somewhat like a dialect continuum for me. So at the moment I'd not make a big deal of Upper or Lower Sorb (how to deal with these in between?), but if there will be genetic differences visible among Sorbs, it can be refined at any time.

[rothaer]

You are just madly jealous ethnic German is more genetically Slavic than you, so you try to make them present day Sorbs to more easily deal with your lack of Slavic DNA for a full ethnic Pole. :)

He may struggle for whatever, but he shall just let it be to edit reference's lables like a Harry Potter.

[Dušan]

Beeskow sample is German, your hundred times repeated manipulation won't become truth. I want this post of yours to stand so other people will know you are using fake samples which don't even belong that ethnic group.

Shameful liar.

It is interesting that Beeskow sample has large distance of huge 23.579 from general German average.

Everyone has right to identify as whatever he wants, but Beeskow sample is not autosomal ethnic German by any scientific logic.

[Jana]

It is interesting that Beeskow sample has large distance of huge 23.579 from general German average.

Everyone has right to identify as whatever he wants, but Beeskow sample is not autosomal ethnic German by any scientific logic.

Nobody disputes it is genetically Sorbian like, it's out of range for East Germans living nearby as well. But likely other Germans in her micro region plot like that, so such samples is useful for modeling of some Germans.

[Dušan]

Nobody disputes it is genetically Sorbian like, it's out of range for East Germans living nearby as well. But likely other Germans in her micro region plot like that, so such samples is useful for modeling of some Germans.

It is surpisingly that one part of one same nation didnt mix with their countrymen from surrounding areas during centuries, and preserve such drastically different autosomal genetic.

Such drastically different autosomal genetic could be preserved between two ethnicities living next to each other, but hard among one same ethnicity.

[Dunai]

It is interesting that Beeskow sample has large distance of huge 23.579 from general German average.

Everyone has right to identify as whatever he wants, but Beeskow sample is not autosomal ethnic German by any scientific logic.

I'm not a fan myself of making separate categories for outliers. Beeskow is an ordinary very small town in Brandenburg, why should it have a special status a town of 8000 inhabitants.

[rothaer]

what are the North Atlantic and Baltic ranges for Saxony and Thuringia? I guess something like Baltic 30-40, NA 33-43?

Thuringia Central: NA: 35-43, Baltic: 27-34
Thuringia East: NA: 34-45, Baltic: 28-37
Saxony: NA 34-40, Baltic: 28-31

[rothaer]

It is surpisingly that one part of one same nation didnt mix with their countrymen from surrounding areas during centuries, and preserve such drastically different autosomal genetic.
Such drastically different autosomal genetic could be preserved between two ethnicities living next to each other, but hard among one same ethnicity.

This is why there is a notable indication for that local Germans score like that. (The whole population there is uniformely protestant.) Tomenable correctly showed that statistical likelyhood. But we don't yet know and we also don't know the geographic extent.

[rothaer]

I'm not a fan myself of making separate categories for outliers. Beeskow is an ordinary very small town in Brandenburg, why should it have a special status a town of 8000 inhabitants.

Neither me. But this individual is deeply rooted in the surrounding villages of Beeskow city. This is why there is a notable indication for that also other local Germans score like that. Tomenable correctly showed that statistical likelyhood. We don't yet know this and also not the possible geographic extent of this. There are Sorbs nearby and we know that they score more Slavic-like too. In this context it would feel wrong to neglect this find. After Sorbs are a small number there could today even be more Germans than Sorbs scoring like that. Germans are sparsely tested, so we have to pay attention to those who are.

[Peterski]

Maybe the Kamenz Sorbs are not representative for whatever Sorbs.

My point was that we don't even know if they are Sorbs or Germans according to your definition. In academic datasets samples are often labelled based on self-identification. This is what for example Mait Metspalu of the Estonian Biocentre does.

So maybe among these Kamenz Sorbs there are people who said "I'm a Sorb from village XYZ located just west of Kamenz, but Sorbian culture in my village and surrounding villages was suppressed 200 years ago". Just like the Beeskow sample.

Kamenz samples might be Germans according to your criteria. We just don't know.

They got published as Sorbs, but could be German-speaking families for centuries.

Also an ethnic German spouse of a Sorb can be counted as a Sorb in many cases.

[Peterski]

I'm not a fan myself of making separate categories for outliers. Beeskow is an ordinary very small town in Brandenburg, why should it have a special status a town of 8000 inhabitants.

This sample represents not Beeskow alone, but entire region around it, a historic region which shares common demographic history. The region is known in German as Kurmärkisch-Wendischer Distrikt and has a territory of 2174 square kilometers, so it is about as big as Memelland (2828 square kilometers).

This Wendischer Distrikt was part of the Bohemian Crown (Lower Lusatia) until the 16th century - then it became part of Brandenburg.

This area has unique history because no other part of Brandenburg was ruled by Czechs until as late as the 1500s.

Maybe thanks to being ruled by fellow Slavs, Sorbs survived so long in this area, and without German admixture.

[Ion Basescul]

Imagine you are Lucas looking for latest averages among this mess.

[rothaer]

It is interesting that Beeskow sample has large distance of huge 23.579 from general German average.
Everyone has right to identify as whatever he wants, but Beeskow sample is not autosomal ethnic German by any scientific logic.

German ethnicity is not defined by genetics, so there is nothing like an "autosomal ethnic German". There are respective overlaps with neighboring populations.
All this doesn't mean that genetics are irrelevant. The gentic spread will show the genetic borders of Germans. And this limits will be found out by testing ethnic Germans. But you can not go the other way around and deny the undisputed ethnicity of Germans inmidst of German people area that have been regarded Germans by all people involved for at least 200 years because of a particular genetic result. It's still not an American company (like AncestryDNA, 23andMe, FTDNA) that defines what is genetically within the frame of Germans. The genetic conditions of the ethnic German people do.

[Jana]

since German-Austrian averages we published few days ago haven't been yet added to Vahaduo, now posting newer updated version (we got more kits in these last few days), plus Sorbs found by Peterska:


Austrian,36.84,27.27,15.90,7.36,9.10,1.32,0.60,0.2 3,0.48,0.27,0.41,0.06,0.10
Austrian_Burgenland,38.13,26.01,13.17,6.50,12.79,0 .87,0.36,0.27,0.62,0.24,0.71,0.00,0.32
Austrian_Carinthia,32.36,33.44,14.41,6.52,10.49,1. 02,0.34,0.00,0.64,0.27,0.33,0.04,0.07
Austrian_Lower_Austria,37.42,24.75,17.87,8.14,7.73 ,1.585,0.97,0.24,0.425,0.225,0.64,0,0
Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria,38.78,27.33,14.66,6.69,9.37,1.49,0.5 8,0.18,0.23,0.31,0.35,0.03,0.00
Austrian_Styria,34.20,31.69,15.07,7.48,8.45,0.79,0 .31,0.33,0.77,0.19,0.16,0.21,0.36
Austrian_Tyrol,36.88,20.87,18.12,8.21,11.75,1.88,0 .20,0.34,0.72,0.52,0.33,0.00,0.07
German,42.05,27.91,13.69,6.10,6.31,1.23,0.86,0.16, 0.32,0.43,0.32,0.35,0.29
German_Baden-Württemberg,40.95,22.52,15.86,6.68,10.49,1.08,0.82 ,0.32,0.38,0.32,0.41,0.08,0.09
German_Bavaria_Lower/Middle_Franconia,41.30,24.80,15.01,7.01,8.85,0.68, 0.72,0.12,0.22,0.65,0.10,0.42,0.08
German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz,39.57,26.56,14.43,6.52,9. 59,0.26,1.44,0.05,0.27,0.75,0.44,0.09,0.04
German_Bavaria_Proper,40.02,23.94,15.40,7.03,10.46 ,1.26,0.35,0.29,0.25,0.58,0.36,0.04,0.00
German_Bavarian_Swabia,34.71,26.3,19.15,7.19,11.37 ,0,0,0,0,0.37,0.4,0,0.46
German_Brandenburg_Northwest,42.26,31.81,11.86,6.8 4,3.28,0.18,1.52,0.16,0.05,0.82,0.68,0.45,0.11
German_Brandenburg_Outlier(Beeskow),26.92,44.46,14 .49,5.95,6.25,0,0,0.72,0,0.17,0.74,0,0.3
German_County_Glatz,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0. 3,0,1.02,0,0.72,0,0.72,0
German_East_Prussia_Central,46.40,36.05,9.33,1.39, 2.77,2.18,0,0.12,0.19,0.31,0.99,0.18,0.09
German_East_Prussia_Masuria,33.26,44.37,9.00,4.57, 3.12,0.15,2.31,0.47,0.75,0.74,0.61,0.00,0.68
German_East_Prussia_Memelland,29.91,52.02,10.63,3. 88,0,0,1.83,0,0.81,0.58,0,0,0.34
German_Farther_Pomerania,39.63,38.09,9.56,4.92,3.9 5,1.05,1.04,0.29,0.03,0.27,0.29,0.63,0.25
German_Frisian,55.45,25.92,9.33,2.93,1.79,1.02,2.2 2,0,0.33,0,1,0,0
German_Hamburg,50.83,28.92,8.41,3.93,4.04,1.33,1.3 2,0,0.62,0.15,0,0.45,0
German_Hither_Pomerania,43.825,32.395,11.415,5.735 ,3.815,0.35,0.545,0.72,0.44,0.475,0.05,0.24,0
German_Lower_Saxony_North,49.55,27.97,10.58,6.26,2 .15,0.25,1.64,0.39,0.16,0.19,0.54,0.32,0.00
German_Lower_Saxony_South,48.78,25.87,11.39,6.78,3 .82,0.44,1.48,0.00,0.51,0.31,0.04,0.12,0.45
German_Lower_Silesia,34.34,36.33,12.87,6.99,6.65,0 ,0.6,0,0.31,0.85,0.34,0.47,0.23
German_Mecklenburg_Center/East,42.39,32.89,11.32,5.1,5.27,0.54,0.89,0,0,1.13 ,0,0,0.47
German_Mecklenburg_West,45.13,33.44,9.22,6.21,3.28 ,0.16,0.49,0.62,0.34,0.34,0.33,0.43,0.00
German_North_Bohemia,38.27,31.61,13.93,5.63,7.42,0 .38,0.90,0.53,0.10,0.41,0.50,0.00,0.31
German_North_Hesse,43.69,22.35,14.83,4.48,10.49,1. 78,0,0.69,0,0.86,0.22,0,0.6
German_North_Moravia,40.94,27.21,13.27,7.36,7.57,1 .49,1.04,0,0,0.48,0.19,0.46,0
German_North_Rhine,43.36,21.95,15.88,7.62,8.34,0.6 2,0.96,0.13,0.23,0.17,0.38,0.23,0.13
German_Saarland,43.50,20.17,18.47,5.85,9.04,1.30,1 .03,0.00,0.20,0.12,0.04,0.17,0.09
German_Saxony,38.88,30.83,13.16,6.57,7.10,1.36,0.2 7,0.02,0.31,0.40,0.29,0.61,0.21
German_Saxony-Anhalt_South,41.19,31.63,11.12,5.16,7.34,1.02,0.62 ,0.25,0.28,0.56,0.50,0.20,0.12
German_Schleswig-Holstein,50.35,26.87,11.48,4.44,3.57,0.78,0.52,0.2 7,0.18,0.83,0.39,0.09,0.24
German_South_Hesse,41.78,21.94,17.52,5.66,8.80,1.5 0,0.66,0.33,0.41,0.56,0.46,0.11,0.27
German_Rhineland-Palatinate,42.44,20.12,17.36,5.05,11.26,1.57,0.27, 0.15,0.65,0.45,0.39,0.11,0.20
German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine,46.37,21.92,13.75,6.97,7. 95,2.21,0.46,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.20,0.15
German_Thuringia_Central,38.63,30.19,13.73,4.49,9. 55,0.38,1.70,0.00,0.25,0.47,0.75,0.00,0.00
German_Thuringia_East,37.78,32.62,11.52,6.80,7.19, 1.13,0.84,0.24,0.64,0.67,0.47,0.00,0.07
German_West_Bohemia,38.06,27.32,15.52,7.55,9.66,0, 0.17,0,0.4,0.58,0.74,0,0
German_West_Prussia,36.87,38.43,11.15,5.97,4.70,0. 16,0.84,0.00,0.72,0.40,0.33,0.13,0.29
German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81 ,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
Upper_Silesia,33.01,43.21,9.27,6.4,5.21,0.26,0.67, 0,1.04,0.31,0.58,0,0.06
Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz,33.90,40.96,10.12,4.85,6.59,0.6 3,1.28,0.44,0.29,0.64,0.10,0.11,0.10

so please add these, not older ones.

[rothaer]

My point was that we don't even know if they are Sorbs or Germans according to your definition. In academic datasets samples are often labelled based on self-identification. (...)
So maybe among these Kamenz Sorbs there are people who said "I'm a Sorb from village XYZ located just west of Kamenz, but Sorbian culture in my village and surrounding villages was suppressed 200 years ago". Just like the Beeskow sample.
Kamenz samples might be Germans according to your criteria. We just don't know. (...)

This is extremely far fetched. As you can see on the map in Kamenz there are people that are identified by themselves and by others (including me, ofc) as Sorbs because of their culture, their language and their consciousness ever since. There is no reasonable cause to assume that in that academic paper stating Sorbs anyone else then such individuals from that group were tested and published as Sorbs. If you find some indications in that paper that this is not the case, it could be reviewed.


Also an ethnic German spouse of a Sorb can be counted as a Sorb in many cases.

That could happen when whatever ethnic individual around the world is tested. Why do you make a huge issue out of that when it is about Sorbs and not Serbs, Croats, Wielkopolska Poles and Belgorod Ukrainians? Your whole approach has double standards. It's very transparent that you just try to justify your idiosyncratic labeling of the Beeskow woman and now try to question (if not delegitimate) the actual tested Sorbs with all that comes in your mind. This is childish.

[Peterski]

there could today even be more Germans than Sorbs scoring like that

Yeah it seems that (going north-south) from Frankfurt/Oder to Görlitz (or even to Zittau) there are predominantly Slavs living on both sides of the border!

In genetic terms.

Roughly this area (which has over 1 million inhabitants - 1,221,260 according to German Wikipedia):


https://i.imgur.com/y0PW9j3.png

[MoroLP]

Imagine you are Lucas looking for latest averages among this mess.

As far as I know, he has at least new Bosniak, Croatian and German-Austrian. The interesting Sorbian discussion should be moved or copied to a related thread. So it will be easier to keep track and keep records there.

[Dušan]

German ethnicity is not defined by genetics, so there is nothing like an "autosomal ethnic German". There are respective overlaps with neighboring populations.
All this doesn't mean that genetics are irrelevant. The gentic spread will show the genetic borders of Germans. And this limits will be found out by testing ethnic Germans. But you can not go the other way around and deny the undisputed ethnicity of Germans inmidst of German people area that have been regarded Germans by all people involved for at least 200 years because of a particular genetic result. It's still not an American company (like AncestryDNA, 23andMe, FTDNA) that defines what is genetically within the frame of Germans. The genetic conditions of the ethnic German people do.

According to your logic, if ethnicity is only a language category, not genetic, then all these recently settled Eastern Europeans and non-Europeans in Germany, ie their descendants, although if they completely keep to themselves, will be considered ethnic Germans in 200 years.
Speaking German and live in Germany is enough.

[rothaer]

According to your logic, if ethnicity is only a language category, not genetic, then all these recently settled Eastern Europeans and non-Europeans in Germany, ie their descendants, although if they completely keep to themselves, will be considered ethnic Germans in 200 years.
Speaking German and live in Germany is enough.

First, you will have seen that I expressly wrote that language is not all.

Second, you will indeed for every ethnicity have to give an approximate year also. What was German in 1000 AD is different to what was German in 1500 AD and this is different to what is German in 1950 AD. Let's express it with an approximate year in brackets. There will also be a huge difference between Slavic (600) and Slavic (1950), especially in Southeast Europe. Or between Hungarian (950) and Hungarian (1950).

Third, everyone will indentify with his own people (ethnicity). You likey are a Serb (1950) and I'm a German (1950) (Which is basically the same as a Serb (2022) and an ethnic German (2022).) In particular I'm not a German (1000). I can feel sad for Germans (1000), but that's not me and not my people that I do refer to and that I want to continue existing (Germans (1950)).

To be observant to differences like this does in no way weaken the own position. You and me will not live notably longer than 100 years. We will die anyway. But which mental healthy living being would because of that conclude that it's not worth to do all what's possible to defend one's own life and instead agree to being killed by someone coming around the corner?

Nobody, ofc. And in the same manner we all in the world will try to get our respective people to live and not to die. And some manage for a very long period of time, for thousands of years, and there is also no necessity to the life of a certain people to end at all. Icelanders (1000) are likey the same as Icelanders (1950), Japanese (-1000) are likely the same as Japanese (1950) and Levantines (-3000) are abt. the same as Levantines (1950) etc.

Speaking German and live in Germany is not enogh for being a German (1950).

If there would be a notable change - this is not yet clear at all - till the year of 2200, then would Germans (1950) not be the same as Germans (2200). Then would Germans (1950) have been ethnocided. Germans (2200), if they would be something else (again, this is not at all said and maybe not even likely), the Germans (2200) would be an ultimate horror. They must be prevented with all power of self-preservation that we do have, so my people (Germans (1950 = 1900 = 1800...) must not die but can go on living.

In this context one must make the effort to be clear with terms. A lot of potential confusions will then disslove. Also considerations will then be clearer.

[Leto]

First, you will have seen that I expressly wrote that language is not all.

Second, you will indeed for every ethnicity have to give an approximate year also. What was German in 1000 AD is different to what was German in 1500 AD and this is different to what is German in 1950 AD. Let's express it with an approximate year in brackets. There will also be a huge difference between Slavic (600) and Slavic (1950), especially in Southeast Europe. Or between Hungarian (950) and Hungarian (1950).

Third, everyone will indentify with his own people (ethnicity). You likey are a Serb (1950) and I'm a German (1950) (Which is basically the same as a Serb (2022) and an ethnic German (2022).) In particular I'm not a German (1000). I can feel sad for Germans (1000), but that's not me and not my people that I do refer to and that I want to continue existing (Germans (1950)).

To be observant to differences like this does in no way weaken the own position. You and me will not live notably longer than 100 years. We will die anyway. But which mental healthy living being would because of that conclude that it's not worth to do all what's possible to defend one's own life and instead agree to being killed by someone coming around the corner?

Nobody, ofc. And in the same manner we all in the world will try to get our respective people to live and not to die. And some manage for a very long period of time, for thousands of years, and there is also no necessity to the life of a certain people to end at all. Icelanders (1000) are likey the same as Icelanders (1950), Japanese (-1000) are likely the same as Japanese (1950) and Levantines (-3000) are abt. the same as Levantines (1950) etc.

Speaking German and live in Germany is not enogh for being a German (1950).

If there would be a notable change - this is not yet clear at all - till the year of 2200, then would Germans (1950) not be the same as Germans (2200). Then would Germans (1950) have been ethnocided. Germans (2200), if they would be something else (again, this is not at all said and maybe not even likely), the Germans (2200) would be an ultimate horror. They must be prevented with all power of self-preservation that we do have, so my people (Germans (1950 = 1900 = 1800...) must not die but can go on living.

In this context one must make the effort to be clear with terms. A lot of potential confusions will then disslove. Also considerations will then be clearer.
Here are my two cents. Leaving obvious non-whites aside (and that includes Turkey for the most part), I'd say the Germans of 2050 will be even more Eastern (even Southeastern perhaps) than a hundred years before. Europeans in Germany usually do not cause problems and adopt the German language in the second generation. Their grandkids will likely identify as German. 2.5 million Aussiedler won't disappear without a trace, that is just one example. Add to that the "Ostblock", Yugoslavian, ex-USSR, Greek, Italian folks.

[Peterski]

(...)

Japanese -1000 did not even exist because at that time Japan was inhabited by hunter-gatherers (Jomon/Ainu folks).

Only the first groups of farmers landed on northern Kyushu (coming from Korea) perhaps around that time, or later.

[Jana]

Here are my two cents. Leaving obvious non-whites aside (and that includes Turkey for the most part), I'd say the Germans of 2050 will be even more Eastern (even Southeastern perhaps) than a hundred years before. Europeans in Germany usually do not cause problems and adopt the German language in the second generation. Their grandkids will likely identify as German. 2.5 million Aussiedler won't disappear without a trace, that is just one example. Add to that the "Ostblock", Yugoslavian, ex-USSR, Greek, Italian folks.

Rothaer does not accept other Europeans as ethnic Germans nor mixes with them. Why would he? Germany isn't rootless white America. Germany is for Germans (and for autochtonous minorities like Sorbs). Other whites in Germany are not Germans. I fully support his views.

And political climate can and could change. Just because millions of foreigners flooded Germany doesn't mean German nationalists are obliged to accept them just because they aren't brown.

[Peterski]

I'd say the Germans of 2050 will be even more Eastern (even Southeastern perhaps) than a hundred years before.

I think the German mean (all Germans averaged) has been constantly shifting in South-Eastern direction since 260 AD all the way until 2022 AD. But, between 260 AD and ca. 850 AD it was shifting only in the southern direction, while after that it was shifting both in eastern and southern.

As of 260 AD basically all existing at that time Germans were Nordic-like*, similar to modern Northwestern Germans.

Southern Germans emerged later, and Eastern Germans even much later.

*Unless they had already assimilated some Celts by then, but those Celts themselves were probably rather northern.

[Dušan]

I just noticed that even I as Balkan Slav, am slightly closer to general German average (23.218) than Beeskow sample (23.579) xD

I respect all your opinions, but that Beeskow sample is obvously of Slavic (Sorb) origin.
May be that community forgot their language, traditions and identity in last few centuries, but genetics do not lie.

Thats it about this topic about Beeskow sample from my side.
Cheers!

[Peterski]

I just noticed that even I as Balkan Slav, am slightly closer to general German average (23.218) than Beeskow sample (23.579) xD

That's because South Germany is the most populous part of Germany, and they have South European admixtures, just like Serbs.

[Leto]

Rothaer does not accept other Europeans as ethnic Germans nor mixes with them. Why would he? Germany isn't rootless white America. Germany is for Germans (and for autochtonous minorities like Sorbs). Other whites in Germany are not Germans. I fully support his views.

And political climate can and could change. Just because millions of foreigners flooded Germany doesn't mean German nationalists are obliged to accept them just because they aren't brown.
You tend to answer a lot for him :) I've read many German blogs and discussions and most AfD supporters seem to have nothing against other Europeans in Germany. National socialists and similar "altrechte" groups are below 1% (see election results), they are basically irrelevant.

[Jana]

You tend to answer a lot for him :) I've read many German blogs and discussions and most AfD supporters seem to have nothing against other Europeans in Germany. National socialists and similar "altrechte" groups are below 1% (see election results), they are basically irrelevant.

This has nothing to do with National Socialism lol. And you have no idea about real opinion of right groups, ofc they present themselves as far more moderate in public.
Nobody said other Europeans are undesireable in Germany, but they are not Germans and German nationalists don't recognize them as such.

German ethnicity is based on blood and was never inclusive, it isn't cucked France with their civic nationalism.

I've come back from Germany recently as my friend lives there (white, educated) and knows average German far better than anthrotards do. They are far less accepting than you think.
Yes, they won't bother you, but they won't see you and your descendants as one of them, even if you live there for generations.

What antifa and left thinks, none cares.

[Jana]

And yeah, I'm irritated by your idea that mongrelization of European ethnics is somehow ok. It isn't. I don't want that for my country either.
France is great example of failed civic nationalism. God forbid other European country becomes like that.

[Leto]

I probably didn't say half of what you just assumed about me. I guess you are just in a bad mood because the other day a half Bangladeshi kid is considered a Croat. ;)

I don't plan on continuing this conversation.

[Jana]

I probably didn't say half of what you just assumed about me. I guess you are just in a bad mood because the other day a half Bangladeshi kid is considered a Croat. ;)

I don't plan on continuing this conversation.

You started it, now bite it. Croats are historically far more inclusive than Germans are as far as ethnicity is concerned (because Slavs unlike Gemanics are more accepting), but that does not strech to half Bangladeshis.
You irritate me.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Carloforte in K13:


Carloforte1,32.40,11.21,26.71,7.13,16.52,3.32,0.02 ,0.58,1.37,0,0,0.74,0
Carloforte10,29.58,8.13,25.17,10,22.66,1.64,0,0,0. 65,0,0.45,1.72,0
Carloforte11,29.17,11.05,24.66,8.89,20.40,3.65,0,1 .04,0.33,0,0,0,0.79
Carloforte12,34.11,5.54,31.73,7.14,17.92,3.33,0,0, 0.23,0,0,0,0
Carloforte13,27.86,12.67,24.16,6.07,23.87,3.97,0,0 ,0.34,0.24,0.57,0,0.26
Carloforte14,26.40,9.18,34.21,3.27,22.22,3.95,0,0. 67,0,0,0.10,0,0
Carloforte15,30.04,9.17,26.07,12.17,19.33,0.45,1.4 8,0,1.29,0,0,0,0
Carloforte16,31.74,6.29,25.52,7.60,24.75,2.82,0.48 ,0.21,0.42,0.17,0,0,0
Carloforte17,27.62,9.60,28.36,10.03,20.72,3.13,0,0 ,0.08,0.44,0.02,0,0
Carloforte18,29.91,5.33,31.81,6.74,20.03,3.86,0,0, 2.00,0.17,0,0,0.15
Carloforte19,29.96,5.89,30.42,8.64,17.99,3.90,0,0, 1.39,1.12,0,0.40,0.30
Carloforte2,28.54,6.71,29.76,6.00,23.34,3.00,0.38, 0,0,1.42,0,0,0.86
Carloforte20,27.47,14.74,23.21,7.97,18.24,5.02,2.1 7,0,0,0,1.00,0.19,0
Carloforte21,25.82,11.77,27.98,7.12,21.69,3.51,0.2 8,0,0.44,0.02,1.02,0,0.34
Carloforte22,28.20,10.80,29.97,7.19,18.33,3.45,0.9 7,1.09,0,0,0,0,0
Carloforte23,31.80,10.55,28.25,7.87,17.12,1.69,1.0 3,0.26,0,0,0.94,0,0.49
Carloforte24,28.45,4.03,32.59,7.80,22.90,2.75,0,0, 0,0,1.47,0,0
Carloforte25,27.17,10.05,26.95,7.58,21.86,3.90,1.1 4,0,0,0,0,1.36,0
Carloforte3,29.62,8.20,29.44,10.27,18.91,2.32,0.56 ,0,0.12,0,0,0,0.55
Carloforte4,36.26,8.15,21.86,15.26,15.39,3.07,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0
Carloforte5,29.89,14.46,23.19,6.30,20.28,3.64,0.67 ,0.11,0,0.24,0.40,0,0.81
Carloforte6,24.38,15.23,28.05,8.17,19.04,2.70,0,0, 0.63,0.99,0.30,0.50,0
Carloforte7,24.93,10.25,34.71,7.32,19.80,1.03,0,0. 63,0,0.61,0.57,0,0.15
Carloforte8,27.38,6.97,29.31,13.55,19.03,2.59,0,0. 90,0,0.25,0,0.02,0
Carloforte9,32.25,7.67,25.71,8.55,21.85,3.26,0.01, 0,0,0,0.69,0,0

Ranges for components:

North Atlantic - 24.38 to 36.26

Baltic - 4.03 to 15.23

West Med - 21.86 to 34.71

West Asian - 3.27 to 15.26

East Med - 15.39 to 24.75

Red Sea - 0.45 to 5.02

Etc.

Cool! They speak Tabarchino Ligurian in that town. This dialect was also spoken in Spain on the island of Nueva Tabarca about twenty kilometers from Alicante and originally in Tabarca, in present-day Tunisia, from which it takes its name.

Eurogenes K13 average


Carloforte,29.238,9.3456,27.992,8.3452,20.1676,3.0 38,0.3676,0.2196,0.3716,0.2268,0.3012,0.1972,0.188

They have some local Sardinian ancestry, and their Ligurian side is proxied by Italian_Emilia.


Target: Carloforte
Distance: 2.1655% / 2.16545026 | R2P
86.1 Italian_Emilia
13.9 Sardinian

Dude, could you please also give the Eurogenes K13 values of Lessinia Cimbrians, Sappada, Sauris and Timau?

[Peterski]

German ethnicity is based on blood and was never inclusive, it isn't cucked France with their civic nationalism.

Not true. Germans were forcing their ethnicity on others, applying forcible Germanisation policies. My home town's history is a good example, Germans were forcing kids at school to speak only in German, and kids started a school strike, which later spread over hundreds of schools in the entire region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrze%C5%9Bnia_children_strike

The very reason why people like Beeskow exist, is because such policies were being applied in many areas, and succeeded in some.

Beeskow woman has no German blood at all.

[Jana]

Not true. Germans were forcing their ethnicity on others, applying forcible Germanisation policies. My home town's history is a good example, Germans were forcing children in school to speak only in German, and children started a school strike, which later spread over hundreds of schools in the entire region.

The very reason why people like Beeskow sample exist, is because such policies were being applied in many areas.

Learn to read. German nationalism, like eastern European nationalism (excluding Hungary) was based on concept of ethnicity (people connected by blood) , not nation (like in France).
Nazism wouldn't be possible if Germans were civic nationalists.

[Jana]

The very reason why people like Beeskow exist, is because such policies were being applied in many areas, and succeeded in some.

Beeskow woman has no German blood at all.

No. By the time ethno-nationalism spread, these people were already considered Germans and couldn't be distinguished from others. They didn't have DNA tests back than. And if they had, they'd surely use them.

[Leto]

Not true. Germans were forcing their ethnicity on others, applying forcible Germanisation policies. My home town's history is a good example, Germans were forcing children in school to speak only in German, and children started a school strike, which later spread over hundreds of schools in the entire region.

The very reason why people like Beeskow sample exist, is because such policies were being applied in many areas.
Don't know about your town but assimilation has been a real thing throughout history, on all continents. I'm sure even Africans and Native Americans assimilated other Africans and NAs linguistically and culturally, we just don't know or don't care about that. Bigger and more useful languages replace smaller and less useful ones. Especially in the past 100-200 years with the rise of urbanization, mass education, print media, radio, TV and the Internet these processes have been accelerating. I'm not advocating for or decrying anything right here, just stating a fact.

[Peterski]

Nazism wouldn't be possible if Germans were civic nationalists.

Hitler criticized Bismarck for his civic nationalism. German nationalism in period 1871-1914 was very similar to French.

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "people cannot be Germanized, only land" - but that was the opposite of pre-1914 policies.

[Jana]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrze%C5%9Bnia_children_strike

There is a reason Upper Silesia isn't labeled German like other averages.

[Jana]

Hitler criticized Bismarck for his civic nationalism. German nationalism in period 1871-1914 was very similar to French.

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "people cannot be Germanized, only land" - but that was the opposite of pre-1914 policies.

French always behaved differently than Germanics, in colonies they race mixed freely unlike English and Germans. They are not comparable.
German (or Slavic) concept of ethnicity was not like French or Hungarian.

[Peterski]

(...)

Can you show how your Lauenburg-Stolp kit (which is part of Pommern average) scores?

This area was also Germanized recently and probably without much German admixture.

[Peterski]

French always behaved differently than Germanics, in colonies they race mixed freely unlike English

Actually French Canadians have only 2% Native American admixture on average:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680396/

The French had different policies towards Native Americans, because they had to rely on Native allies.

French colonies always had much fewer white settlers than English colonies.

For example in 1655 French colonies had only around 6,000 whites and English colonies 52,000 whites.

In 1702 when Queen Anne's War started the English still had nearly 8 white settlers for every 1 French.


German (or Slavic) concept of ethnicity was not like French or Hungarian.

Inter-War Poland had civic nationalism.

[Ion Basescul]

The very reason why people like Beeskow exist, is because such policies were being applied in many areas, and succeeded in some.

Beeskow woman has no German blood at all.

Is this a GEDmatch kit? You can just ask the person to send you raw data if so, and ask for consent to upload on MyHeritage. Then split the 20 Euro costs among those interested and see whom she matches at closest distances. Or was it free for matches and paid for ethnicity estimate? In any case, with raw data it should be easy to figure out through matches if results are the product of proxy effect or real admixture.

[J.S.]

French always behaved differently than Germanics, in colonies they race mixed freely unlike English and Germans. They are not comparable.
German (or Slavic) concept of ethnicity was not like French or Hungarian.

Myth vs reality.

Yerri Urban, L’Indigène dans le droit colonial français 1865-1955

This thesis, which proposes to study the history of nationality law specific to the colonized, who were then called "natives", constitutes a real contribution to the knowledge of the status of the native, a status at the heart of the process of colonial domination. But these are not its only contributions. It also teaches us a great deal, it seems to us, about the degree to which jurists adhered to the racial culture of the Third Republic; it also allows us to better understand the complexity of the relationship between “race” and the Republic, and to better measure the importance of racial logic within the theories and practices of the Third Republic.

The 'indigenous' legal category, which makes colonized populations not French 'citizens' but French 'subjects', falls squarely within the framework of colonial domination: the law does not make the native an equal of the French from mainland France or the French settled in the colonies, but it confers on him an inferior status. Olivier Beaud recalls in the introduction that this “status is amputated from the noblest part of political law: the right to citizenship”. The native, by not enjoying political rights[1], thus saw himself deprived of any participation in the management of the life of his city, that of his territory as well as that of the French Empire, which is well reflected in the very unrepublican denomination of “subject”.

Soil law was above all a means of Frenchifying populations of European origin. There was indeed in the construction of this colonial law a racial logic which opposed Europeans considered as belonging to the “white race” – the term was very present in the remarks of certain jurists – to other races. Of course, the greatly reduced possibility of naturalization for the natives is not synonymous with total exclusion, an hermetic barrier of color and civilization; but if the door was ajar, it was so only for a very small minority.

The study of naturalization decrees carried out by Yerri Urban indeed shows that there was a desire to limit access to French citizenship to a tiny minority of natives, and that this narrow door was above all motivated by the concern to maintain colonial domination. France sparingly granted citizenship status to a thin elite[4]; the colonial authorities had to rally the local elites to the colonial system and avoid turning them into rebels. etc, etc, etc.

https://www.histoire-politique.fr/index.php?numero=1&rub=comptes-rendus&item=508

[Peterski]

Stearsolina,

The French in America were badly outnumbered by the English, they had to rely more on Native allies (the English also had Native allies of course).

For example in this battle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Monongahela

French forces:
637 Indians
254 whites

English forces:
0 Indians
1300 whites

There were many battles like this, where united French-Indian forces had more Indians than whites.

[rothaer]

(...) Beeskow woman has no German blood at all.

What else shall define German blood if not the blood that the undisputed members of the German people do have?

The imagination of a Pole from Wielkopolska?

[J.S.]

Stearsolina,
The French in America were badly outnumbered by the English, they had to rely more on Native allies (the English also had Native allies of course).


In Canada, only 7798 French founders contributed to 90% of the gene pool of the current French-Canadian population.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21302269/

[Peterski]

What else shall define German blood if not the blood that the undisputed members of the German people do have?

Early German DNA of course from the time when German kingdom/nation's history began (roughly).

I would tell you the same about Slavs - how can there be a Slav with 0% of Early Slavic admixture?

[Peterski]

In Canada, only 7798 French founders contributed to 90% of the gene pool of the current French-Canadian population.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21302269/

This study counted a bit more founders - 8424 including 39 genealogically documented Natives among founders:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680396/

But in terms of genetic ancestry they actually found on average 2.12% Native, so more than genealogy suggests.

[rothaer]

(...) Inter-War Poland had civic nationalism.

What a nonsense! Such fairy tales you can tell people that have no knowledge about interwar Poland. In March 1939 a lot of Germans (Polish citizens) fled over the border to Silesia, because the persecutions of ethnic Germans were so harsh. My grandmother (Polish citizen as well) also considered doing it, but eventually didn't.

An here another example contradicting your fantasies about Polish civic nationalism (and appreciation of Jews):

"The deported Jews were rejected by Poland and therefore had to live in makeshift encampments along the Germany–Poland border."

They were all Polish citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_expulsion_of_Polish_Jews_from_Germany

[Peterski]

In March 1939 a lot of Germans (Polish citizens) fled over the border to Silesia, because the persecutions of ethnic Germans were so harsh.

I'm having Déjà Vu now because I discussed about this (and many other similar topics) years ago with Michael Mills, Jan-Hendrik, and other German apologists & David Irving's friends on Axis History Forum. Maybe you can register there and join the debate there.

Generally Polish Counter-Intelligence was carrying out actions aimed at disrupting the network of German spies and Fifth Column in Poland.

Feel free to discuss it on AHF.

=====

OK here are some quotations from "Battle of Mlawa 1939" by Ryszard Juszkiewicz:

"[...] Germans were disappointed because they calculated that because of the propaganda thousands of men would escape, in this way weakening the strength of the Polish Army. Attempt failed. Due to the Sentence of the Regional Court in Mława for an attempt of organizing illegal overruns of the border in 1939 the following people were sentenced: Emma Bergeisten, Rudolf and Marta Weissens, Reingold Elgert, Alfred and Freda Scheins and Franciszek and Józef Szpejewskis.

If there were any escapes to the Reich, they were only carried out by German colonists living in the Northern Mazovia. For example from Iłów - to avoid recruitment to the Polish Army - two sons of Wilhelm Sowa, two members of Prejs family and two Radzanowski brothers escaped to Prussia. Escapes of Poles from the border poviats of this region were not recorded. [...]"

Another one:

"[...] Characteristic phenomenon for the last period before the war were numerous illegal migrations of young people in recruiting age on both sides of the border. In the mławski poviat many people in beggar clothes appeared. On the other hand young Germans were escaping from Poland to avoid being enlisted to the Polish Army or to avoid detentions in case if they were members of spy networks or V Column. Due to these facts on 30.04.1939 Polish authorities issued the "Law about Special Criminal Liability In Case of Illegal Escapes to the Enemy or Outside the Borders of the State". On the basis of this law Polish courts punished many ethnic Germans. But it did not prevent all escapes. In August of 1939 many young Germans appeared along the border. Captured by Polish Border Guard or Police, they were explaining that they were escaping from the upcoming war, that they hated Hitler, that they were good Catholics persecuted by German authorities. Polish security authorities usually interpreted reasons of these escapes correctly - that is, contraband of saboteurs to the Polish territory. But many circles - including the local press and Catholic clergy - assumed that stories about massive escapes from religious reasons were true, they were cheated and treated exodus of "refugees" as preview of soon crisis in godless Germany. Indeed, there were also such persons, who were really escaping from the Nazi terror, but it was several years before the beginning of the war. For example in 1936 a German soldier with full equipment escaped from the garrison in Olsztyn to Poland - his name was Heinz Keller. [...]"

Another one:

"[...] Another mean, which was to cause atmosphere of uncertainty and disorganize the political live, were messages spread by the German secret service, saying that peasants should not work in their fields, because it is a vain effort in the face of war. German agents were gathering and buying Polish coins. Limited amount of coins in circulations was causing among some people willingness to tesaurisate silver and nickel coins as these - according to spread gossips - would retain their value during the war.

Also behaviour of Germans living in Poland changed. They became even more arrogant and provocative. Local press was saying about numerous indictments to the Polish courts from Polish civilians, about insults and abuses of impudent Germans - informed about imminent war - towards ethnic Poles. [...]"

=====

Germans were also escaping to avoid conscription into the Polish Army, as Poland's citizens.

=====

OK this part is about Silesia:

"[...] Freikorps der Gewerkschaft Deutscher Arbeiter was created in May of 1939 at the initiative of Rudolf Wiesner, director of national Jungdeutsche Partei in Silesia.

There were also such "V column" organizations like:

Kampforganisation (their task was to protect important objects like bridges, roads, tunnels, railways, etc.)
Sabotageorganisation (their task was to destroy important objects behind the Polish lines to isolate the second stage and reserves of the Polish Army)
Fallschirmorganisation (saboteurs from this organization were carrying out air landings behind the Polish lines - they were very active for example in the operational area of Polish Southern Grouping of the "Prusy" Army)

There were also "V column" units called Betriebeschutz and Industrieschutz - they were ordered to protect Polish factories, mines and foundries from being destroyed by withdrawing Polish Army.

Abwehra also had its agents in the Polish Army - these units were called Regiments-Organisationen.

Both Kampf-, Sabotage- and Fallschirmorganisations had got 4,474 members in Silesian Voivodeship alone in July of 1939.

In August of 1939 there were 1,140 German saboteurs in front of the positions of German 5. Panzer-Division alone.

On 15.08.1939 Polish counterintelligence started to liquidate the German sabotage network in Silesia (which had been already "cracked" since quite a long time, but until 15.08.1939 Polish services only observed German sabotage preparations), at the end of August another wave of custodies (this time a top-secret wave) took place - as a result the majority of German saboteurs in Silesia spent the beginning of war in prisons or escaped to Germany - unfortunately the results of Polish actions were not 100% efficient and still many German saboteurs were active on 01.09.1939.

Moreover, German propaganda was trying to talk the world into believing that Poles were arresting "innocent ethnic Germans", not members of sabotage network (mainly local ethnic Germans, but also "visitors" from Germany) which was cooperating with the German Abwehra. That's why for example after the first wave of liquidation of the German sabotage in Silesia which started on 15.08.1939, Western Allies - especcialy as always pro-German England - protested and demanded to release arrested persons - many of them came back to sabotage organizations (that's why the second wave of custodies in late August was a top-secret operation).

Probably the biggest achievement of the German "V Column" in Silesia before the war was achieved by the K-Organisation unit of the section Rybnik - Pszczyna under command of Kurt Unger (local ethnic German) in cooperation with the Regiments-Organisation in Polish 55. Infantry Division:

"Als Beispiel fur die Unterhohlung der polnischen Wehrmacht fuhren wir noch an, dass Reserveoffizier Walter Wollny aus Rybnik als Fuhrer einer ganzen Kompanie mit 3 MG, 3 Munitionwagen und seiner Kompanie sich gegen den polnischen Fend wandte und sich dann dem deutschen Militar stellte. Zu unseren grossen Freude war es uns vergonnt, mit den deutschen Truppen mit einzumarschieren." - fragment of a document quoted by A. Szefer in "Subversive - sabotage activity of Breslau Abwehra in Polish territories on the eve of the Hitler's aggression in 1939", page 348.

This Polish company was the National Defense Company "Rybnik".

And probably the biggest "success" of over 1,000 men-strong K-Organisation Pless Abschnitt Pless-Rybnik during the battle for Silesia was:

"Sicherung und Instandsetzung der Strasse nordl. Rydultau" [...]"

=====

German spies/agents even tried to mobilize to the Germany Army ethnic German Polish citizens from borderland areas, quote:

"Polish citizens of German origin living in the area of Northern Mazovia were secretly delivered German mobilizational cards with time limit of showing up on 5 - 6 September in Bydgoszcz (Bromberg), Toruń (Thorn) or Grudziądz (Graudenz). Apparently German authorities anticipated that until that time these Polish cities would already be captured by the invading German army. [...]"

[Dušan]

"Battle of Mlawa 1939"


We have river with the same name. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mlava

[Peterski]

As long as Pilsudski lived it was civic nationalism - and then, still civic nationalism but with stronger pressure on Polonisation.

[J.S.]

This study counted a bit more founders - 8424 including 39 genealogically documented Natives among founders:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680396/
But in terms of genetic ancestry they actually found on average 2.12% Native, so more than genealogy suggests.

The French Canadian founder population: lessons and insights for genetic epidemiological research


A study based on genealogical information reports that about 89% of Quebec’s gene pool comes from French founders and almost 81% is derived from the French founders who arrived in the 17th century (Vézina et al. 2005b). French Canadians contributed to the growth of another population; between 600 000 and 800 000 French Canadians left Quebec for USA in 1840-1930 (Charbonneau 1973).
Note that we described the settlement of French people in Nouvelle France paying little attention to Aboriginal peoples who had already established themselves about 8 000 years ago in many regions (Frenette 1996; Desjardins et al. 1999). Although their influence has also shaped French Canadian history their genetic contribution to the population remained very small according to the latest studies (around 1%) (Vézina et al. 2012; Moreau et al. 2013).

page 23

https://papyrus.bib.umontreal.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1866/14114/Gauvin_Heloise_2015_these.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

Moreau & al 2013 is the one you quoted. Anyway, it doe not make a big difference.

[rothaer]

(...)

I understand that my 30 yo Baptist grandma in Lodz likely was a spy or a fifth column that had to be persecuted.

What about the quoted 17,000 Jews (Polish citizens)?

[rothaer]

We have river with the same name. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mlava

I bet you had more battles at your Mlava. :)

[rothaer]

Early German DNA of course from the time when German kingdom/nation's history began (roughly).(…)

Pretty squint. What is then English, French, Hungarian and Bulgarian blood?
Would be something that the English, French, Hungarians and Bulgarians respectively just have in minority then.

[Peterski]

Pretty squint. What is then English, French, Hungarian and Bulgarian blood?
Would be something that the English, French, Hungarians and Bulgarians respectively just have in minority then.

French is Gaulish/Celtic (and this is what they officially claim at least since the Revolution, and they are right - also the fact that the French claim that their nation is based mainly on Gallic blood means that Stearsolina was wrong when saying that the French do not care about blood connections).

Bulgarian is Early Slavic (Slavic tribes settled the region before nomadic invaders came, and Bulgarian language is Slavic)

English - Anglo-Saxons (they see Normans as occupiers, not as ancestors)

Hungarian - no idea, these are truly mongrels. Very likely even early Magyar Conquerors were already mongrels when they came.

[Leto]

French is Gaulish/Celtic (and this is what they officially claim at least since the Revolution, and they are right - also the fact that the French claim that their nation is based mainly on Gallic blood means that Stearsolina was wrong when saying that the French do not care about blood connections).

Bulgarian is Early Slavic (Slavic tribes settled the region before nomadic invaders came, and Bulgarian language is Slavic)

English - Anglo-Saxons (they see Normans as occupiers, not as ancestors)

Hungarian - no idea, these are truly mongrels. Very likely even early Magyar Conquerors were already mongrels when they came.
You both have a point. Yes, it was Germanics that founded the German nation (hence the name and the language) but now all ethnic Germans with German family trees are equally German. Slavs, Celts, possibly even Romans were assimilated hundreds or in some cases thousands of years ago. And most modern people would not be some kind of genetic outliers, let's not forget a large and growing number of people do not come from small towns and villages.
The Dutch do seem to be more "deutschblütig" in the original sense than many BRD Germans are, which is interesting. Which German regions are the most similar to the Dutch? Low Saxony, East Frisia I would guess, perhaps NRW too. But the Dutch are more Western geographically, so that's understandable. The same reason why Poles are less mixed than Russians. Had we stayed west of Moscow, we would be almost Polaks. Oh well.

[Peterski]

I understand that my 30 yo Baptist grandma in Lodz likely was a spy or a fifth column that had to be persecuted.

You wrote that she considered moving to Silesia but stayed. You did not claim that she was persecuted (any details about the alleged persecution)? Nazi radio used fear-mongering propaganda in its broadcast, spreading rumours that the Polish were planning to persecute Germans - and that's why many considered crossing the border. This is what historian Juszkiewicz claims.


What about the quoted 17,000 Jews (Polish citizens)?

Wikipedia article mentions that in the end they were allowed to enter Poland.

Why they were held in camps on the border for so long I don't know, maybe they were not considered loyal if they lived in Germany, or maybe there were suspected spies working for Abwehra etc. among them.

Probably they had to be checked before being allowed entrance.

[Roy]

This study counted a bit more founders - 8424 including 39 genealogically documented Natives among founders:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680396/

But in terms of genetic ancestry they actually found on average 2.12% Native, so more than genealogy suggests.

That is why there is a certain number of recessively inherited genetic disorders among people from Quebec not really present or as common among other populations, especially Saguenay town.

[Roy]

It is surpisingly that one part of one same nation didnt mix with their countrymen from surrounding areas during centuries, and preserve such drastically different autosomal genetic.

Such drastically different autosomal genetic could be preserved between two ethnicities living next to each other, but hard among one same ethnicity.

I have heard from a Pole who used to work in various regions and little towns across Germany that it is very characteristic for people from this country to mostly marry/get into relationship with people who they grew up with (as in with a next-door girl) usually from the same small town even if they move to a bigger city to study, find a new job. They just tend to return to their little homeland eventually to start a family. He told me it is one of the cultural differences between Poles and Germans, their very strong association with 'their land, little microregion'.

Also he told me that in some old German little towns people tend to look ... eerily similar to each other. As if 50% guys were the slight variation of the same guy despite them not being even cousins. :D But 50 kms from that place it will be a perceivably different look that gets 'repeated', people will be samey but a different kind of samey. I think it has something to do with the fact that there used to be hundreds of distinct political entities, independent duchies until very late in history.

I am also of opinion that it has something to do with people selecting mates that have a familiar look more often, with epigenetic factors and not so much with having a small genetic pool etc

[rothaer]

I have heard from a Pole who used to work in various regions and little towns across Germany that is very characteristic for people from this country to mostly marry/get into relationship with people who they grew up with usually from the same small town even if they move to a bigger city to study, find a new job. They just tend to return to their little homeland eventually to start a family. He told me it is one of the cultural differences between Poles and Germans, their very strong association with 'their land, little microregion'.

Also he told me that in some old German little towns people tend to look ... eerily similar to each other. As if 50% guys were the slight variation of the same guy despite them not being even cousins. :D But 50 kms from that place it will be a perceivably different look that gets 'repeated', people will be samey but a different kind of samey. I think it has something to do with the fact that there used to be hundreds of distinct political entities, independent duchies until very late in history.

An interesting statement. I never thought about if that could be applicable. But what to compare with, if you don't know anything else. :icon_ask:

[Turul Karom]

What is then English, French, Hungarian and Bulgarian blood?

Whatever went into the bowl.

https://i.ibb.co/q1xYcdG/blood-oath-at-Etelk-z.jpg (https://ibb.co/ysVFZXT)
https://i.ibb.co/z4G5Rdh/Screenshot-2021-11-24-at-13-28-01-your-DNAportal-com.png (https://ibb.co/9rsvTP9)
https://i.ibb.co/Fm24L3N/mt-DNA-origins-of-Hungarian-hun-and-avar-conquering-Magyar-graves-and-DNA-skin-color-eye-color-hair.png (https://ibb.co/6rz07wV)

[Turul Karom]

Edit: duplicate post because TA host crash. Have a video!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugTCeNk7ldM

[Lucas]

Thread will be continued here:)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358398-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-(VOL-2)&p=7413924#post7413924