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vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 08:34 PM
I don't believe Zahumljani, etc were Serbs. I believe they were separated Slavic tribes. I consider Kosovo-Resava dialect original Serbian language.
is it even sure that ikavian shtokavian originated from Zahumlje? is there any research about this?
also, Kosovo-Resava is spoken in an area that was originally under the Bulgarian empire, it was conquered by Serbs later, is there any proof that it was spoken on a different territory earlier?
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 08:36 PM
No. Dalmatian Islanders have 0% Panonnian Slavic blood, there was never contact and they lived separated in different countries for centuries, no linguistic influence no nothing.
You can prove us differently and present evidence of NW Croat migration into Dalmatian islands, I will be delighted to read it.
Genetics >>> Paper trail/family stories/legends
Deal with it.
Fiko0
12-19-2019, 08:36 PM
EDIT not this.
From first page of results, 0 values too.
Population
North_Sea 20.31 Pct
Atlantic 11.25 Pct
Baltic 18.23 Pct
Eastern_Euro 28.43 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 18.13 Pct
Amerindian 3.27 Pct
Oceanian 0.39 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
and then such format like above in image
I got confused in first place because you only had to enter results where there was no direct link between the two sites with a kit number or something like that. Matter of logic.
I found a simple instruction video on youtube. Maybe you can add it to the first page for people who are less experienced with such things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvSnoP1E0JU
is it even sure that ikavian shtokavian originated from Zahumlje? is there any research about this?
also, Kosovo-Resava is spoken in an area that was originally under the Bulgarian empire, it was conquered by Serbs later, is there any proof that it was spoken on a different territory earlier?
Not sure, but most consider realm of Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatnić cradle of ikavian because it's borders corespond with historical spread of ikavian.
This area:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Realm_of_Hrvoje_Vuk%C4%8Di%C4%87_Hrvatini%C4%87.pn g/1280px-Realm_of_Hrvoje_Vuk%C4%8Di%C4%87_Hrvatini%C4%87.pn g
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kPAP0z5CvG8/UHRY3SyRvfI/AAAAAAAAExA/nKUDDXaasIk/s1600/Croatian+dialect+map.png
What dialect is originally spoken in upper Podrinje/SE Bosnia and SW Serbia/Northern Montenegro? That should be Serbian core.
From what I know East Herzegovina immigrants came there later.
Morlak
12-19-2019, 08:39 PM
I don't believe Zahumljani, etc were Serbs. I believe they were separated Slavic tribes. I consider Kosovo-Resava dialect original Serbian language.
Early medieval historical sources mention them as part of Serbian ethnos. In DAI its clearly stated that Serbs populated those Sclavinians and that they were under influence of main Serbian state under Vlastimirovic dynasty.
What you believe is not relevant.
Early medieval historical sources mention them as part of Serbian ethnos. In DAI its clearly stated that Serbs populated those Sclavinians and that they were under influence of main Serbian state under Vlastimirovic dynasty.
What you believe is not relevant.
DAI is written reflecting political situation. At time it was written Serbia controlled these lands. And DAI doesn't mentions Dukljani have anything to do with Serbs for example.
It also mentions Serbs got their name from Byzatines. It is not to be taken literally and no serious historian does.
Prince of Zahumlje mentions his origins from Vistula, and White Serbs have no connection with that area.
There is also mention of separate Slavic tribe Neretljani in Paganija, which was absorbed by Croatia later.
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 08:45 PM
is it even sure that ikavian shtokavian originated from Zahumlje? is there any research about this?
also, Kosovo-Resava is spoken in an area that was originally under the Bulgarian empire, it was conquered by Serbs later, is there any proof that it was spoken on a different territory earlier?
Nobody know where ikavian reflex was created.
Medieval stećci from East Herzegovina are ikavian and partly ikavian. Charter of Vuk Branković is ikavian. In Šumadija on the grave from 14th century are written ikavian words "Stipan" and "bilig", look here (around middle) http://www.politika.rs/sr/clanak/387139/Kultura/Imena-cara-Urosa-i-kneza-Lazara-na-istom-spomeniku
It seems ikavian reflex in the middle age was widespread in the wider Balkan region, Prilep is mentioned as Prilip in some sources.
---
Sorry, proper Dalmatian Croats shift towards Eastern Europe.
Impaler
12-19-2019, 08:49 PM
K13:
http://i.imgur.com/VUyg11e.png (https://imgur.com/VUyg11e)
K15:
http://i.imgur.com/QdmS8WH.png (https://imgur.com/QdmS8WH)
Morlak
12-19-2019, 08:52 PM
DAI is written reflecting political situation. At time it was written Serbia controlled these lands. And DAI doesn't mentions Dukljani have anything to do with Serbs for example.
It also mentions Serbs got their name from Byzatines. It is not to be taken literally and no serious historian does.
Prince of Zahumlje mentions his origins from Vistula, and White Serbs have no connection with that area.
There is also mention of separate Slavic tribe Neretljani in Paganija, which was absorbed by Croatia later.
DAI clearly mentions that Serbs settled those areas not that it was jut under our political control.
Quote from DAI "Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then holding Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in. And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries"
DAI may not be flawless but it is the only historical source that talks about South Slavs in such precision. Also there is other sources that mentions Serbs populated those parts of Dalmatia such as Royal Frankish Annals by Einhard from 8th century.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 08:54 PM
Not sure, but most consider realm of Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatnić cradle of ikavian because it's borders corespond with historical spread of ikavian.
[/img]
so you think the cradle of Ikavian was in Donji kraji and spread from there?
What dialect is originally spoken in upper Podrinje/SE Bosnia and SW Serbia/Northern Montenegro?
the language of Nemanjić's and Kotromanić's texts. modern Serbian and Croatian are Vlachified versions of that language.
Tuzla (Soli) area, and Bosnia(which didn't include Soli) was also part of that early Serbia.
so you think the cradle of Ikavian was in Donji kraji and spread from there?
Possibly.
the language of Nemanjić's and Kotromanić's texts. modern Serbian and Croatian are Vlachified versions of that language.
Tuzla (Soli) area, and Bosnia(which didn't include Soli) was also part of that early Serbia.
From what I know, Nemanjić texts were written on Serb version of Church Slavonic.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 09:09 PM
Possibly.
From what I know, Nemanjić texts were written on Serb version of Church Slavonic.
not all of them. Some Nemanjić charters were written in Serbian (called "Srpski narodni jezik" by linguists). some articeles in Dušan's code were in Church Slavonic, others were in Serbian, fro example:
O trgovĕh.
Što su kudĕ posekli Sasi gorĕ do sijega-zi zbora, tu-zi zemlju da si imaju.
Ako su komu vlastĕlinu bez pravdĕ uzeli zemlju, da se sudĕ s njim vlastĕle zakonom svetago kralja. A od s'da naprĕda Sasin da nĕ sĕče: a što seče, onoga-zi da ne teži, ni ljudi da ne sađa, (ni vlastelin ljudi da ne seli)
t'kmo da stoji pusta da raste gora. Nikto da ne zabrani Sasinu gorĕ, koliko jest trĕbe trgu, toliko-zi da sĕče.
O ljudjĕh crkovnih
34. Ljudie crkovni, koji drže crkovna sela, i zemlje crkovne a prognali su merophe crkovne, ili vlahe ot njizi koji su razgnali ljudi, da se svežu i da im se uzme zemlja i ljudije, i da ih drži crkva, dokle skupe ljudi koje su razgnali.
not all of them. Some Nemanjić charters were written in Serbian (called "Srpski narodni jezik" by linguists). some articeles in Dušan's code were in Church Slavonic, others were in Serbian, fro example:
O trgovĕh.
Što su kudĕ posekli Sasi gorĕ do sijega-zi zbora, tu-zi zemlju da si imaju.
Ako su komu vlastĕlinu bez pravdĕ uzeli zemlju, da se sudĕ s njim vlastĕle zakonom svetago kralja. A od s'da naprĕda Sasin da nĕ sĕče: a što seče, onoga-zi da ne teži, ni ljudi da ne sađa, (ni vlastelin ljudi da ne seli)
t'kmo da stoji pusta da raste gora. Nikto da ne zabrani Sasinu gorĕ, koliko jest trĕbe trgu, toliko-zi da sĕče.
O ljudjĕh crkovnih
34. Ljudie crkovni, koji drže crkovna sela, i zemlje crkovne a prognali su merophe crkovne, ili vlahe ot njizi koji su razgnali ljudi, da se svežu i da im se uzme zemlja i ljudije, i da ih drži crkva, dokle skupe ljudi koje su razgnali.
Interesting.
Mingle
12-19-2019, 10:03 PM
How come that a serb get szekely as first place? And I usually get serbs as first. Is it because of our high Balkan?
Serbs don't get Szeklers are first. Only Moje ime does cause she's very western shifted. She has higher NA than Baltic which is rare for Serbs. Your results are also atypical for Szeklers so that's why you get Serbs first. Your mom gets "Szekely" first at a very close distance.
Serbs don't get Szeklers are first. Only Moje ime does cause she's very western shifted. She has higher NA than Baltic which is rare for Serbs. Your results are also atypical for Szeklers so that's why you get Serbs first. Your mom gets "Szekely" first at a very close distance.
My father does with converted 23andme v5 because his Baltic percentage drops and North atlantic rises. I assume his Myheritage raw data is a newer chip version. his result was done in October of this year.
Distance to: Dick-dad
2.75965578 Szekely
3.01069759 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
3.35611998 Serbian_new
3.44873890 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
3.55357566 Croat_Split
3.94434881 Serbian_Bosnia
4.04414919 Bosnian
5.12060543 Romanian_South_Central_Moldova
5.31914467 Csango_Gymes
5.66290980 Montenegrin
5.73098595 Romanian_Transylvania
6.43488151 Moldavian
7.24225794 Romanian_Oltenia
7.29854284 Slovenian
7.59961841 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
7.80423603 Hungarian
8.11554891 Macedonian
8.68035714 Croatian
9.89064710 Romanian_Muntenia
10.28980078 Kaykavian_Croatian
10.32951596 Bulgarian
11.41442645 North_Macedonian
11.55176028 Slovak
11.84739212 Austrian
13.32957239 Czech
Mingle
12-19-2019, 10:12 PM
Those people are eastern shifted and their origin is eastern. They came to todays Croatia with Turks, and than get catholicised.
If they are real Craots, than you, Hrvoje, ph2ter are fake ones. :D
Other way around. The Morlach/Bunjevci cluster of South Croats plots has eastern origins, from Herzegovina around the Buna River. From there, they later migrated to modern South Croat inhabited lands. They score around 28-30% Baltic and all get Serbian as their top population on GEDmatch (before updated averages).
The South Croats that belong to the "Slavic cluster" are very far from Serbs. They are around 35% Baltic and no Serbs from any region score like them. They're native Croats without any eastern origins. They just score similar to Moldovans/Bessarabians due to similarity in some components.
Other way around. The Morlach/Bunjevci cluster of South Croats plots has eastern origins, from Herzegovina around the Buna River. From there, they later migrated to modern South Croat inhabited lands. They score around 28-30% Baltic and all get Serbian as their top population on GEDmatch (before updated averages).
The South Croats that belong to the "Slavic cluster" are very far from Serbs. They are around 35% Baltic and no Serbs from any region score like them. They're native Croats without any eastern origins. They just score similar to Moldovans/Bessarabians due to similarity in some components.
True, but keep in mind this Slavic cluster includes some BiH Croats as well. Westcoast though claims to have origins from Dalmatians who moved to Posušje if I remember correctly.
Dušan
12-19-2019, 10:20 PM
Other way around. The Morlach/Bunjevci cluster of South Croats plots has eastern origins, probably from Herzegovina around the Buns River. From there, they later migrated to modern South Croat inhabited lands. They score around 28-30% Baltic and all get Serbian as their top population on GEDmatch (before updated averages).
The South Croats that belong to the "Slavic cluster" are very far from Serbs. They are around 35% Baltic and no Serbs from any region score like them. They're native Croats without any eastern origins. They just score similar to Moldovans/Bessarabian due to similarity in some components.
Both of them have nothing with kaykavian Croats.
Those Bunjevci cluster are closer to Serbs indeed, but there are Serbs who have 30%-34% Baltic.
Out of 14 tested members from Poreklo forum, 6 have that range of Baltic component - that is 43% of all members.
Average Baltic in that sample is 30.14%.
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 10:20 PM
Other way around. The Morlach/Bunjevci cluster of South Croats plots has eastern origins, from Herzegovina around the Buna River. From there, they later migrated to modern South Croat inhabited lands. They score around 28-30% Baltic and all get Serbian as their top population on GEDmatch (before updated averages).
The South Croats that belong to the "Slavic cluster" are very far from Serbs. They are around 35% Baltic and no Serbs from any region score like them. They're native Croats without any eastern origins. They just score similar to Moldovans/Bessarabians due to similarity in some components.
Proto Bunjevci were probably from Buna river https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buna_(Neretva)
In relatively recent time Bunjevac became synonym for all Dinaric Catholics.
Both of them have nothing with kaykavian Croats.
Those Bunjevci cluster are closer to Serbs indeed, but there are Serbs who have 30%-34% Baltic.
Out of 14 tested members from Poreklo forum, 6 have that range of Baltic component - that is 43% of all members.
Average Baltic in that sample is 30.14%.
Nobody gives a shit about Kajkavian Croats and both of them share same ethnicity with them.
Speaking about origins they aren't related, but this Slavic cluster is closest we can get to original medieval Croats by far.
Deal with it.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 10:23 PM
https://i.imgur.com/VBP7pgg.png
the official k13 Serbian average is not calulated from the academic kits.
it would be interesting to find out where it's actually from. 27% baltic is found in Southeast Serbia, but it's also 27 Atlantic at the same time :confused:
And no, Serbs aren't close to them at all.
Mingle
12-19-2019, 10:25 PM
i think i was the first to propose that they are descendants of Medieval Croats, and the ones with 28% Baltic are Bunjevac newcomers in a chat with Mingle. Mingle can correct me if i'm wrong. and i still think that. i won't comment on the rest.
Yep. When I first brought it up to you, you said the ones with higher Slavic were natives. Feiichy came to the same conclusion later. Would you say that all the southern shifted Croats can be collectively called "Bunjevac" or is that technically inaccurate?
Mingle
12-19-2019, 10:26 PM
https://i.imgur.com/VBP7pgg.png
the official k13 Serbian average is not calulated from the academic kits.
it would be interesting to find out where it's actually from. 27% baltic is found in Southeast Serbia, but it's also 27 Atlantic at the same time :confused:
Maybe they used a small portion of the academic kits for the average?
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 10:27 PM
Both of them have nothing with kaykavian Croats.
Those Bunjevci cluster are closer to Serbs indeed, but there are Serbs who have 30%-34% Baltic.
Out of 14 tested members from Poreklo forum, 6 have that range of Baltic component - that is 43% of all members.
Average Baltic in that sample is 30.14%.
Serbs on average are about 30% Baltic, without doubt.
This is average K13 of 23 Serbs from various regions of formers Yugoslavia - Baltic is 30.1%.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/prosecni-eurogenes-k13-rezultat-1-png.534211/
Mingle
12-19-2019, 10:28 PM
True, but keep in mind this Slavic cluster includes some BiH Croats as well. Westcoast though claims to have origins from Dalmatians who moved to Posušje if I remember correctly.
Yes I'm aware. Max Soldo is a B&H Croat that scores 35% Slavic. I also posted another Herzegovina Croat that scored 35% Slavic in that popular South Slavic genetics thread.
Serbs on average are about 30% Baltic, without doubt.
This is average K13 of 23 Serbs from various regions of formers Yugoslavia - Baltic is 30.1%.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/prosecni-eurogenes-k13-rezultat-1-png.534211/
Very far from propersouthern Croats, no similarity. It's close to ''Morlachs''.
Dušan
12-19-2019, 10:29 PM
Nobody gives a shit about Kajkavian Croats and both of them share same ethnicity with them.
Speaking about origins they aren't related, but this Slavic cluster is closest we can get to original medieval Croats by far.
Deal with it.
I dont fucking care.
I will remove all new created Croat components that you invented, every time I run calculator.
I dont fucking care.
I will remove all new created Croat components that you invented, every time I run calculator.
Please do. I do the same for Bosnian Servs.
Yes I'm aware. Max Soldo is a B&H Croat that scores 35% Slavic. I also posted another Herzegovina Croat that scored 35% Slavic in that popular South Slavic genetics thread.
True. But more of this genetic profile lives in Dalmatia. I will try to get results of my Islander/Boduli matches, pretty sure they will be very Slavic on average.
It's reflected in physical appearance too.
''Morlachs'' are taller and darker.
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 10:36 PM
True. But more of this genetic profile lives in Dalmatia. I will try to get results of my Islander/Boduli matches, pretty sure they will be very Slavic on average.
It's reflected in physical appearance too.
Your obssesion with "Slavic" dna is fantastic. But you score only 32.5% Baltic if I am not wrong, that score is nothing strange for Serbs. Are you Serbo-Vlach in Baltic score? :cool:
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 10:40 PM
Feiichy has high North Atlantic score. This might be from Vlachs in her!
Serbs on average are about 30% Baltic, without doubt.
This is average K13 of 23 Serbs from various regions of formers Yugoslavia - Baltic is 30.1%.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/prosecni-eurogenes-k13-rezultat-1-png.534211/
I get Baltic 32.78 Pct more than my dad lol
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 10:44 PM
Your obssesion with "Slavic" dna is fantastic. But you score only 32.5% Baltic if I am not wrong, that score is nothing strange for Serbs. Are you Serbo-Vlach in Baltic score? :cool:
She's nothing genetically like those fairy tale 'very slavic' dalmatians, just some slovenized serb with some extra germanic mixture, croatians probably have the least original slavic blood from the entire balkans, serbs, bulgarians etc.. may average less baltic than croatians but what it is from the original south slavs invaders and not assimilated pannonian slavs .
If you were to guess, how much baltic % do you think she would score if her non-south croat ancestors were removed?Mid 20's?
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 10:46 PM
Yep. When I first brought it up to you, you said the ones with higher Slavic were natives. Feiichy came to the same conclusion later. Would you say that all the southern shifted Croats can be collectively called "Bunjevac" or is that technically inaccurate?
the ones from Lič, Senj and Vrlika really are recorded as Bunjevci, and their neighburing Serbs from those areas still call them Bunjevci as Pribislav mentioned.
Insuperable and that Croat from Stolac he posted could be proto Bunjevci, who stayed near Buna (if that theory is correct)
Ljubic's father could be something else, i don't know where Duvno and Brcko Croats originate from
Mingle
12-19-2019, 10:46 PM
Both of them have nothing with kaykavian Croats.
Those Bunjevci cluster are closer to Serbs indeed, but there are Serbs who have 30%-34% Baltic.
Out of 14 tested members from Poreklo forum, 6 have that range of Baltic component - that is 43% of all members.
Average Baltic in that sample is 30.14%.
Yes, they're nothing like Kaykavian Croats.
I don't think there is any overlap between the Slavic-shifted South Croats and Serbs. If there is, it will be very small. These people were probably originally Chakavian speakers for the most part and genetically close to the Proto-Croats.
Either the Bunjevci Croats are native and the Slavic shifted ones are foreigners from the east or the Bunjevci Croats are foreigners. I think the second explanation is more likely.
She's nothing genetically like those fairy tale 'very slavic' dalmatians, just some slovenized serb with some extra germanic mixture, croatians probably have the least original slavic blood from the entire balkans, serbs, bulgarians etc.. may average less baltic than croatians but what it is from the original south slavs invaders and not assimilated pannonian slavs .
If you were to guess, how much baltic % do you think she would score if her non-south croat ancestors were removed?Mid 20's?
Hahaha, I would be much more Slavic if I was pure Dalmatian islander. Unfortunately we mixed with some lesser central Europeans and Balkanites.
the ones from Lič, Senj and Vrlika really are recorded as Bunjevci, and their neighburing Serbs from those areas still call them Bunjevci as Pribislav mentioned.
Insuperable and that Croat from Stolac he posted could be proto Bunjevci, who stayed near Buna (if that theory is correct)
Ljubic's father could be something else, i don't know where Duvno and Brcko Croats originate from
I think Herzegovina.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 10:50 PM
Maybe they used a small portion of the academic kits for the average?
i tried it , it's not that either. maybe some mix of Serbian and Montenegrin academic samples
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 10:50 PM
the ones from Lič, Senj and Vrlika really are recorded as Bunjevci, and their neighburing Serbs from those areas still call them Bunjevci as Pribislav mentioned.
Insuperable and that Croat from Stolac he posted could be proto Bunjevci, who stayed near Buna (if that theory is correct)
Ljubic's father could be something else, i don't know where Duvno and Brcko Croats originate from
This Croatian from Livno got no 1 Serbian. He has 29.8% Baltic on K13.
https://i.imgur.com/zdv7TqZ.png?1
Your obssesion with "Slavic" dna is fantastic. But you score only 32.5% Baltic if I am not wrong, that score is nothing strange for Serbs. Are you Serbo-Vlach in Baltic score? :cool:
I care for my people, Dalmatian Croats, and islanders are some of purest Croats around. I don't particulary care for rest of my ancestors neither I identify with them in any way.
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 10:53 PM
Yes, they're nothing like Kaykavian Croats.
I don't think there is any overlap between the Slavic-shifted South Croats and Serbs. If there is, it will be very small. These people were probably originally Chakavian speakers for the most part and genetically close to the Proto-Croats.
Either the Bunjevci Croats are native and the Slavic shifted ones are foreigners from the east or the Bunjevci Croats are foreigners. I think the second explanation is more likely.
Were are these 'super slavic' south croats at?
The only one that was posted here had ~34.5 baltic and ~25 north_atlantid and was typical bosnian, i even think Vlatko had a tiny bit more baltic.:lol00002::lol00002:.
This Croatian from Livno got no 1 Serbian. He has 29.8% Baltic on K13.
https://i.imgur.com/zdv7TqZ.png?1
I used this person for Morlach cluster. Very different from other Livnjak Max Soldo who I used for Slavic cluster.
But Max Soldo mentioned something about origins from Poljica Republic or something along these lines. Hard to remember.
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 10:55 PM
I care for my people, Dalmatian Croats, and islanders are some of purest Croats around. I don't care for rest of my ancestors particulary neither I identify with them in any way.
ProudBrit expleined you case fine. :coffee:
Fact that you stay on the map closer to HungryLion that to your parents is textbook example how bullshit is when people understand autosomal literaly. Autosomal is fun on the first place, people who are deep in that are wrong.
Were are these 'super slavic' south croats at?
The only one that was posted here had ~34.5 baltic and ~25 north_atlantid and was typical bosnian, i even think Vlatko had a tiny bit more baltic.:lol00002::lol00002:.
Lol dude, average Baltic for my samples is close to 36. This one is on low end for them. Highest is close to 38.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 10:56 PM
I used him for Morlach cluster. Very different from other Livnjak Max Soldo who I used for Slavic cluster. But Max Soldo mentioned something about origins from Poljica Republic or something along these lines.
3 of his grandparent's surnames originate from Dalmatian hinterland and one from West Herzegovina(Posušje or Široki brijeg, i forgot)
ProudBrit expleined you case fine. :coffee:
Fact that you stay on the map closer to HungryLion that to your parents is textbook example how bullshit is when people understand autosomal literaly. Autosomal is fun on the first place, people who are deep in that are wrong.
No, there is nothing bullshit about autosomal, just K15 is shit calculator with unbalanced componenets.
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 11:00 PM
No, there is nothing bullshit about autosomal, just K15 is shit calculator with unbalanced componenets.
It's interesting stuff, but for some people is mania like gambing. People have blood, meet, sould, feelings, they are not some numbers and scores on some paper...
It's interesting stuff, but for some people is mania like gambilng. People have blood, meet and sould, feelings, they are not some numbers and scores on some paper...
True Pribi :)
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 11:03 PM
Lol dude, average Baltic for my samples is close to 36. This one is on low end for them. Highest is close to 38.
Reread, i said with low north atlantid, and the sample posted few pages behind had i have no doubt you can find even with 40 among northern croats, hell given that we don't inherit exactly half and half from each gene you may even find from time to time low north_atlantic and high baltic, but it will be textbook cherrypicking.
Here it is, he has 34.4% baltic, hilarious how Dusan with his 33.8% baltic and north_atlantic score is probably far closer to what you consider 'proper southern croat' than you, your family and most croats are. :lol00002::lol00002::lol00002:
This is how gedmatch results of proper Southern Croat look like. I used him as one for Slavic cluster averages. Hrvoje posted him long ago.
Person in question is native of coastal Dalmatia near Split in last 700 years. You won't find purer Croat than that.
1 Baltic 34.39
2 North_Atlantic 26.92
3 West_Med 14.89
4 East_Med 12.56
5 West_Asian 5.67
6 Siberian 1.91
7 South_Asian 1.28
8 Red_Sea 1.22
9 Oceanian 0.51
10 Amerindian 0.47
11 Sub-Saharan 0.11
12 East_Asian 0.07
Single Population Sharing:
1 Croatian 4.06
2 Moldavian 4.68
3 Hungarian 6.31
4 Serbian 7.81
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.58
6 South_Polish 10.01
7 Ukrainian 10.49
8 Austrian 10.74
9 East_German 10.81
10 Romanian 11.55
11 Polish 13.5
12 Bulgarian 13.63
13 Southwest_Russian 14.01
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 14.73
15 Russian_Smolensk 15.64
16 Estonian_Polish 15.85
17 Belorussian 16.42
18 Kargopol_Russian 17.85
19 West_German 18.05
20 Southwest_Finnish 18.17
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
1 61.9% Estonian_Polish + 38.1% Tuscan @ 1.73
2 62.8% Southwest_Russian + 37.2% North_Italian @ 1.99
3 52.3% Estonian + 47.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.05
4 71.3% Ukrainian + 28.7% Tuscan @ 2.17
5 64.8% Southwest_Russian + 35.2% Tuscan @ 2.19
6 54.9% Lithuanian + 45.1% Tuscan @ 2.2
7 74.1% Ukrainian + 25.9% West_Sicilian @ 2.21
8 61.1% Belorussian + 38.9% Tuscan @ 2.43
9 65.2% Estonian_Polish + 34.8% West_Sicilian @ 2.45
10 79.7% South_Polish + 20.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.53
11 59.5% Estonian + 40.5% West_Sicilian @ 2.53
12 62.3% Russian_Smolensk + 37.7% Tuscan @ 2.54
13 78.9% Ukrainian + 21.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.56
14 68% Serbian + 32% Estonian_Polish @ 2.59
15 62.6% Estonian + 37.4% South_Italian @ 2.64
16 58% Serbian + 42% Ukrainian @ 2.68
17 69.4% South_Polish + 30.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.7
18 59.9% Bulgarian + 40.1% Estonian @ 2.74
19 79.8% South_Polish + 20.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.74
20 58.4% Lithuanian + 41.6% West_Sicilian @ 2.77
So Morlach cluster included Croats from these regions:
Zadar (Dalmatia)
Vrlika (Dalmatia)
Livno (SW Bosnia/Tropolje)
Stolac (East Herzegovina)
half Duvno (SW Bosnia/Tropolje) half Brčko (NE Bosnia/Posavina)
Keep in mind for us in Croatia southern Croat is everyone with origins south of Sava River. Which makes sense historically and ethnically.
Mingle
12-19-2019, 11:04 PM
Were are these 'super slavic' south croats at?
The only one that was posted here had ~34.5 baltic and ~25 north_atlantid and was typical bosnian, i even think Vlatko had a tiny bit more baltic.[emoji38]00002:[emoji38]00002:.Mate, learn some basics before you're gonna troll. 35-36% is their average and the average has 5 samples.
Where are they? They were all posted here before.
...
Dušan is 33% Baltic which is on highest end for Serbs and he isn't particulary close to them. You're going on ignore list.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 11:08 PM
K15 is shit calculator with unbalanced componenets.
this, and if you check my k36(which is also a bad calculator) plot thread, where i plotted a few parents and their children, when the parents are distant enough(like in Peterski's case), the child plots exactly between them. but when the parents are autosomally similar to each other this doesn't exactly work (like in your case).
it might be just a fault of the plotting algorithm, not the admixture algorithm, i didn't really check
Daos777
12-19-2019, 11:10 PM
Who has the highest Baltic on TA? Mine is 39.46
Full Russians have to be at least 50% right?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this, and if you check my k36(which is also a bad calculator) plot thread, where i plotted a few parents and their children, when the parents are distant enough(like in Peterski's case), the child plots exactly between them. but when the parents are autosomally similar to each other this doesn't exactly work (like in your case).
it might be just a fault of the plotting algorithm, not the admixture algorithm, i didn't really check
So what's a good calculator? I see there is no mldp k16 on this toolski
this, and if you check my k36(which is also a bad calculator) plot thread, where i plotted a few parents and their children, when the parents are distant enough(like in Peterski's case), the child plots exactly between them. but when the parents are autosomally similar to each other this doesn't exactly work (like in your case).
it might be just a fault of the plotting algorithm, not the admixture algorithm, i didn't really check
K36 is bad too, completely agree. K13 looks the best, and EU test seems decent as well. For south Slavs MDLP K16 modern works very well, like in your case and case of my father.
Although I don't like it's components, they lack west/east focus.
Its interesting how are they very far from each other - souther and kaykavian ones.
https://i.imgur.com/yKAnDkI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/06awmKz.jpg
Someone will say - artificial nation. ;)
What are all the regions included in "southern croat"? Does it include Bosnian Croats as well?
Daos777
12-19-2019, 11:12 PM
Serbs have low Baltic?
Real Daco-Illyrian Dinarid mountain warriors.
No wonder Croats be jelly
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 11:12 PM
Mate, learn some basics before you're gonna troll. 35-36% is their average and the average has 5 samples.
Where are they? They were all posted here before.
Dušan is 33% Baltic which is on highest end for Serbs and he isn't particulary close to them. You're going on ignore list.
I posted the one Feiichy posted as, in her own words, 'proper southern croats', he is 34.4% Baltid BUT 27% North_atlantid.
For comparision, Dusan is 34% Baltid BUT 22% North_Atlantid and so are similar many other serbs like Dick, Ford etc..:lol00002:
Nothing else to discuss, croats are nothing else but bosnians(serbs) admixed with medieval croatized pannonian slavs and austro-hungarian mixture often and it shows in genetics.
Mingle
12-19-2019, 11:13 PM
I think Herzegovina.If all these southern shifted South Croats originate from the Bunjevci of Herzegovina, then maybe Croat_South_Bunjevac would be a better name? Morlach is fine too, but this would be less confusing. Pribislav wasn't sure what you meant by Morlach and maybe others will have the same issue.
Regarding them being more common in Herzegovina, that makes more sense since that's geographically closer to their point of origin. I would guess them to be more common in South Dalmatia compared to places like Duvno.
vbnetkhio
12-19-2019, 11:14 PM
So what's a good calculator? I see there is no mldp k16 on this toolski
i should really remove that from my signature, lol. mdlp k16 is some random 10 year old calc, i just get nice single distances in it , it doesn't make it good.
the best dna results are given by k13, 23andme, and global25 in no particualr order
Lucas
12-19-2019, 11:15 PM
It should be my longest thread. Thanks to all TA Balkanite members:)
Nothing else to discuss, croats are nothing else but bosnians(serbs) admixed with medieval croatized pannonian slavs and austro-hungarian mixture often and it shows in genetics.
Native of Kaštela with confirmed origins going back centuries related with Panonnian Croats? Hahah. Fuck off Romanian retard.
Lemgrant
12-19-2019, 11:16 PM
Who has the highest Baltic on TA? Mine is 39.46
Full Russians have to be at least 50% right?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
k13:
https://i.imgur.com/lmZY6Kk.png
https://i.imgur.com/liaPdMX.png
If all these southern shifted South Croats originate from the Bunjevci of Herzegovina, then maybe Croat_South_Bunjevac would be a better name? Morlach is fine too, but this would be less confusing. Pribislav wasn't sure what you meant by Morlach and maybe others will have the same issue.
Regarding them being more common in Herzegovina, that makes more sense since that's geographically closer to their point of origin. I would guess them to be more common in South Dalmatia compared to places like Duvno.
I am not sure, for example we have no proof that Zadar Croat has Bunjevac origins. Bunjevci are far smaller group than Pribislav makes them to be.
Most of these southern shifted Croats just have extra Vlach blood (which arrived from east in Ottoman times). But Bunjevci are counted as Vlachs itself, so it's bit confusing.
i should really remove that from my signature, lol. mdlp k16 is some random 10 year old calc, i just get nice single distances in it , it doesn't make it good.
the best dna results are given by k13, 23andme, and global25 in no particualr order
But 23andme v5 chip has lesser snps than others. G25 I like since there's always new ancient samples which I find more interesting than modern populations(in the future a typical Swede will be 50% SSA and R1b Ydna from Chad) but to each their own. it's an interesting hobby.
By the way, native Illyrians in Dalmatia had high North Atlantic. Which is exactly why this guy is modeled as Russian + North Italian (just like me)
These is Iron Age samples who plot very similary, just bit less north.
Bronze Age Dalmatian
1 North_Atlantic 36.73
2 West_Med 23.57
3 East_Med 15.67
4 Baltic 13.11
5 West_Asian 8.04
6 Red_Sea 2.87
Single Population Sharing:
1 North_Italian 6.07
2 Portuguese 6.25
3 Spanish_Extremadura 6.73
4 Spanish_Cataluna 6.9
5 Spanish_Galicia 7.37
6 Spanish_Murcia 7.51
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7.79
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.9
9 Spanish_Andalucia 8.18
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.76
11 French 9.14
12 Spanish_Cantabria 10.07
13 Spanish_Aragon 11.5
14 Southwest_French 11.53
15 Tuscan 11.71
16 West_German 14.36
17 South_Dutch 14.77
18 Romanian 16.27
19 Serbian 16.71
20 Bulgarian 17.78
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
1 78.3% North_Italian + 21.7% Southwest_English @ 1.95
2 80.2% North_Italian + 19.8% West_Scottish @ 1.99
3 80.1% North_Italian + 19.9% Irish @ 2.02
4 61% North_Italian + 39% French @ 2.17
5 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% Orcadian @ 2.31
6 78% North_Italian + 22% Southeast_English @ 2.37
7 80.6% North_Italian + 19.4% North_Dutch @ 2.52
8 72.6% North_Italian + 27.4% South_Dutch @ 2.56
9 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.57
10 82.3% North_Italian + 17.7% Norwegian @ 2.69
11 80.9% North_Italian + 19.1% Danish @ 2.69
12 87.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.1% Kurdish @ 2.78
13 88.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 11.2% Georgian @ 2.81
14 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Kumyk @ 2.82
15 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Armenian @ 2.83
16 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Adygei @ 2.85
17 72.5% North_Italian + 27.5% West_German @ 2.86
18 85.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 14.5% Turkish @ 2.87
19 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Azeri @ 2.89
20 86% Spanish_Valencia + 14% Lezgin @ 2.9
Dušan
12-19-2019, 11:21 PM
Reread, i said with low north atlantid, and the sample posted few pages behind had i have no doubt you can find even with 40 among northern croats, hell given that we don't inherit exactly half and half from each gene you may even find from time to time low north_atlantic and high baltic, but it will be textbook cherrypicking.
Here it is, he has 34.4% baltic, hilarious how Dusan with his 33.8% baltic and north_atlantic score is probably far closer to what you consider 'proper southern croat' than you, your family and most croats are. :lol00002::lol00002::lol00002:
Unfotunately, I get Croatian as second, instead of third, just because Serbian average is inaccurate and artificial (27% Baltic and 27% North Atlantic - no Serb has such result)
These are my results:
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 33.78
2 North_Atlantic 22.32
3 West_Med 18.56
4 East_Med 12.69
5 West_Asian 8.15
6 Siberian 1.73
7 Red_Sea 1.13
8 Oceanian 0.92
9 South_Asian 0.72
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Moldavian 4.63
2 Croatian 6.84
3 Serbian 8.18 (real distance is closer and Serbian is 2nd. That average is outdated)
4 Romanian 10.2
5 Hungarian 10.72
6 Bulgarian 11.37
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.17
8 Ukrainian 13.2
9 South_Polish 13.63
10 Austrian 14.51
11 East_German 14.85
12 Southwest_Russian 16.47
13 Polish 16.71
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.91
15 Russian_Smolensk 18.36
16 Estonian_Polish 18.69
17 Belorussian 19.61
18 Greek_Thessaly 19.71
19 Kargopol_Russian 20.05
20 Tatar 20.7
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Moldavian + 6.6% Sardinian @ 3.52
2 60.5% Ukrainian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.89
3 67.8% Ukrainian + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 4.09
4 54.2% Bulgarian + 45.8% Ukrainian @ 4.12
5 94.6% Moldavian + 5.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.15
6 72.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 27.8% Sardinian @ 4.16
7 90.5% Moldavian + 9.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.16
8 71.1% Ukrainian + 28.9% South_Italian @ 4.17
9 84.3% Moldavian + 15.7% Bulgarian @ 4.19
10 93.9% Moldavian + 6.1% Ashkenazi @ 4.23
11 68.8% Ukrainian + 31.2% East_Sicilian @ 4.23
12 62.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 37.2% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.24
13 95.1% Moldavian + 4.9% Italian_Jewish @ 4.24
14 93.7% Moldavian + 6.3% Central_Greek @ 4.27
15 93.9% Moldavian + 6.1% East_Sicilian @ 4.27
16 94.6% Moldavian + 5.4% South_Italian @ 4.27
17 94% Moldavian + 6% West_Sicilian @ 4.28
18 95.9% Moldavian + 4.1% Cyprian @ 4.29
19 95.9% Moldavian + 4.1% Tunisian @ 4.29
20 96% Moldavian + 4% Moroccan @ 4.3
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 11:21 PM
Native of Kaštela with confirmed origins going back centuries related with Panonnian Croats? Hahah. Fuck off Romanian retard.
You'd have 1,048,576 ancestors just 20 generations ago.Are you sure that he managed to trace all of them or atleast most?You seem very sure of this.:lol00002::lol00002:
Genetics >>> Paper trail/family stories/legends
You've said it yourself, genetics above everything
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 11:26 PM
I am not sure, for example we have no proof that Zadar Croat has Bunjevac origins. Bunjevci are far smaller group than Pribislav makes them to be.
Most of these southern shifted Croats just have extra Vlach blood (which arrived from east in Ottoman times). But Bunjevci are counted as Vlachs itself, so it's bit confusing.
Bunjevci are - Herzegovinian Croatians + Livno, Kupres and Duvno ones / Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland / Croatians around Senj and some from Gorski Kotar /most of Lika Croatians / some Croatians from Kordun and Banija / vast majority of Croatians from Bačka.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Bunjevci_migrations.png
It should be my longest thread. Thanks to all TA Balkanite members:)
Congrats, pierogi. There are currently 62 users browsing this thread. (13 members and 49 guests)
You'd have 1,048,576 ancestors just 20 generations ago.Are you sure that he managed to trace all of them or atleast most?You seem very sure of this.:lol00002::lol00002:
You've said it yourself, genetics above everything
Yes he did, because his ancestors live in this coastal town for centuries, where civilisation was and people were actually literate and made records about their origins.
When you present genealogical proofs for your Vlach brethen who usually don't know who their ancestors were less than 3 generations ago, than we will discuss.
hardly my ancestors could participate in the movements caused by the Turkish breakthrough. written records of my ancestors have existed since the beginning of the 16th century and even during this period my ancestors were also juspatrons of Kastela's benefits. they could hardly have been some fresh refugees.
Feiichy has high North Atlantic score. This might be from Vlachs in her!
For sure, native Dalmatians had high North Atlantic. But ''eastern Vlachs'' did not.
Bunjevci are - Herzegovinian Croatians + Livno, Kupres and Duvno ones / Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland / Croatians around Senj and some from Gorski Kotar /most of Lika Croatians / some Croatians from Kordun and Banija / vast majority of Croatians from Bačka.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Bunjevci_migrations.png
I don't know, I have one ancestor from around Drniš and their surname has no connections with Herzegovina or Bunjevci. It doesn't exist there.
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 11:39 PM
Yes he did, because his ancestors live in this coastal town for centuries, where civilisation was and people were actually literate and made records about their origins.
When you present genealogical proofs for your Vlach brethen who usually don't know who their ancestors were less than 3 generations ago, than we will discuss.
I only talk numbers, unless he has tracked most of them to the date he claims to then its irrelevant.
I doubt he tracked even 0.0001% of them if we're talking about 16th century he said, let alone further down.
I only talk numbers, unless he has tracked most of them to the date he claims to then its irrelevant.
I doubt he tracked even 0.0001% of them if we're talking about 16th century he said, let alone further down.
Irrelevant. This is how native Dalmatians without recent Ottoman Vlach influence score.
They are highly Slavic and their results look nothing like mix of Serbian and Slovenian ones.
But I unerstand your frustration. You are close to them. Maybe some Dalmatian visited your mom few decades ago?
Mingle
12-19-2019, 11:47 PM
It should be my longest thread. Thanks to all TA Balkanite members:)
By the way, there's a lack of Polish regional averages on Vahaduo. Can you have them uploaded? There are a lot of Polish regions and I'm sure you probably have averages for most of them. K13 only has 2-3 Polish averages right now.
Also, please give the sample size for each regional averages if you can.
ProudBrit
12-19-2019, 11:50 PM
Irrelevant. This is how native Dalmatians without recent Ottoman Vlach influence score.
You can't say irrelevant when I just mathematically proved you are wrong, that's like me saying 1+1 = 2 and you saying its irrelevant and the answer is 3.
They are highly Slavic and their results look nothing like mix of Serbian and Slovenian ones.
They score identical to bosnians(serbs) and given how rare percentage wise these 'highly slavic' croats are, i'd have a much higher chance to seek original south slavic blood among bosnians and serbs than among croats.
But I unerstand your frustration. You are close to them. Maybe some Dalmatian visited your mom few decades ago?
No, seems that Ford's cousins visited yours 28 years ago tho
Pribislav
12-19-2019, 11:52 PM
I don't know, I have one ancestor from around Drniš and their surname has no connections with Herzegovina or Bunjevci. It doesn't exist there.
Surname is might created locally around Drniš. Not all Bunjevci from Dalmatian hinterland brought surnames from Herzegovina, some were created after they settled in Dalmatia.
Some is with Dalmatian Serbs. Some surnames arrived from BiH, Raška and Montenegro, and some were created in Dalmatia and exist only locally.
For example Serbs with surname Lunić from Drniš area brought that surname from Livno area in the late 17th century, Serbs Raškovići from Knin probably carry this surname from Raška, Serbs Miloš and Barišić from Vrlika brought surnames from Duvno field in 1692, Macure brought surname from northern Montenegro (Raška), but Serbs with surnames Komazec, Markoš, Tutuš and Vukobrat got surnames in Dalmatia.
Mingle
12-19-2019, 11:55 PM
I am not sure, for example we have no proof that Zadar Croat has Bunjevac origins. Bunjevci are far smaller group than Pribislav makes them to be.
Most of these southern shifted Croats just have extra Vlach blood (which arrived from east in Ottoman times). But Bunjevci are counted as Vlachs itself, so it's bit confusing.
Is there any proof that there were Romance-speaking people in such large numbers in the Dinarics during the Ottoman era?
Is there any proof that there were Romance-speaking people in such large numbers in the Dinarics during the Ottoman era?
Morlachs are mentioned as Romance speakers between 12-14 century. After that they were slavicized.
Name which contain -ul often have Romanophone Vlach origin. Like Radulović (common among Serbs)
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 12:00 AM
Is there any proof that there were Romance-speaking people in such large numbers in the Dinarics during the Ottoman era?
Of course not.
Bunjevci are just Catholic Serbs. Feiichy's "Morlach" cluster confirmed things which are obvious even without genetic for all Serbs and Croatians.
I understand Feiichy's position, she don't want to admit Serbian origin of Bunjevci (štokavian folks as Serbs, not chakavians as real "super Slavic" Croatians).
I recognize serbification of Vlachs (Rumani) from East Serbs. I don't have a problem with that unlike Feiichy with Bunjevci.
Surname is might created locally around Drniš. Not all Bunjevci from Dalmatian hinterland brought surnames from Herzegovina, some were created after they settled in Dalmatia.
Some is with Dalmatian Serbs. Some surnames arrived from BiH, Raška and Montenegro, and some were created in Dalmatia and exist only locally.
For example Serbs with surname Lunić from Drniš area brought that surname from Livno area in the late 17th century, Serbs Raškovići from Knin probably carry this surname from Raška, Serbs Miloš and Barišić from Vrlika brought surnames from Duvno field in 1692, Macure brought surname from northern Montenegro (Raška), but Serbs with surnames Komazec, Markoš, Tutuš and Vukobrat got surnames in Dalmatia.
For my ancesotor is bizzare theory:
Aralica families are usually Croats and they are mostly from Knin area. According to some sources from the Island of Zlarin and from Puljane near Knin. There is a hypothesis they immigrated from the Aral Sea in Russia, and very rarely Serbs. In Puljane in Knin area every sixth inhabitant had the family name Aralica.
Of course not.
Bunjevci are just Catholic Serbs. Feiichy's "Morlach" cluster confirmed things which are obvious even without genetic for all Serbs and Croatians.
I understand Feiichy's position, she don't want to admit Serbian origin of Bunjevci (štokavian folks as Serbs, not chakavians as real "super Slavic" Croatians).
I recognize serbification of Vlachs (Rumani) from East Serbs. I don't have a problem with that unlike Feiichy with Bunjevci.
My very close relative Vlaj Ivan Aralica isn't a fan of Serbs xD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Aralica
Aralica was swept into the vortex of turbulent events known as the Croatian spring (1971). During this tumultuous era he allied with those who advocated greater Croatian autonomy and freedom for Croatian people in Communist Yugoslavia. From 1979 to 1989 Aralica published eight novels, which can be best described as modernist rewritings of historical fiction. The best among them (Psi u trgovištu/Dogs in a bazaar, 1979; Duše robova/Slaves’ souls, 1984; Graditelj svratišta/Builder of an inn, 1986; Asmodejev šal/Asmodey’s shawl, 1988) show similar traits: these are essentially novels of complex narrative techniques recreating dramatic events in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina from 16th to 18th century and describing historical fatum of Croats caught in the “clash of civilizations”- a three centuries long warfare between Austria, the Ottoman Empire and Venice. He wrote two books of political essays (one about the genesis of Serbian imperialism, the other on historical complexities of the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina)
Still vigorously writing in his eight decade, Aralica is considered as one of the best Croatian novelists of the 2nd half of the 20th century.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 12:06 AM
For my ancesotor is bizzare theory:
Aralica families are usually Croats and they are mostly from Knin area. According to some sources from the Island of Zlarin and from Puljane near Knin. There is a hypothesis they immigrated from the Aral Sea in Russia, and very rarely Serbs. In Puljane in Knin area every sixth inhabitant had the family name Aralica.
Serbian painter Stojan Aralica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stojan_Aralica
In Bukovica there was a Serbs with surname Ardalić, it's similar as Aralica.
Serbian painter Stojan Aralica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stojan_Aralica
In Bukovica there was a Serbs with surname Ardalić, it's similar as Aralica.
Well, their surname isn't present in Herzegovina or among Bunjevci. And I am not suprised for that Serb. All Aralice are smart and educated.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 12:10 AM
By the way, native Illyrians in Dalmatia had high North Atlantic. Which is exactly why this guy is modeled as Russian + North Italian (just like me)
These is Iron Age samples who plot very similary, just bit less north.
Bronze Age Dalmatian
1 North_Atlantic 36.73
2 West_Med 23.57
3 East_Med 15.67
4 Baltic 13.11
5 West_Asian 8.04
6 Red_Sea 2.87
That's a sample from Bronze Age, the natives since then were clapped by dozens of populations.Its statistically impossible for you to have any portion of your DNA significantly from them, let alone half.
You don't want to understand that you can't model balkanites with 2 populations, let alone using ancient ones, you need like 30-50% medieval slav + dozens other populations.(mostly from early middle ages, with some from ancient period), you are yourself a mix of a dozen different ethnicities that you know of.
andre
12-20-2019, 12:11 AM
Today i learned 3 new things:
1) Romanians are not a ethnic group, but a offense
2)during the early ottoman period existed latin speakers in the dinaric mountains
3)Bunjevci are one of the most important and influential ethnicity after the anglo-saxons
:)
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 12:17 AM
Well, their surname isn't present in Herzegovina or among Bunjevci. And I am not suprised for that Serb. All Aralice are smart and educated.
Serbian surnames in village Turjanski near Vrhovine (Lika) in 1915: Agbaba, Aralica, Božičković, Bobić, Božić, Brakus, Đurčić, Divjak, Grozdanić, Hinić, Hrkalović, Ivančević, Krajnović, Lukić, Mandić, Mašić, Mirković, Narančić, Skendžić, Stojanović, Svilar, Vuksan.
I suppose they arrived to Lika in 16th or 17th century, as vast majority Lika Serbs.
Mingle
12-20-2019, 12:18 AM
Morlachs are mentioned as Romance speakers between 12-14 century. After that they were slavicized.
Can you give a citation/quote on that? I haven't heard of Romance speakers in the Dinarics from that recently. Even Fortis, who claims that Morlachs have Romance/Vlach origins, states that they only speak Slavic.
andre
12-20-2019, 12:20 AM
Can you give a citation/quote on that? I haven't heard of Romance speakers in the Dinarics from that recently. Even Fortis, who claims that Morlachs have Romance/Vlach origins, states that they only speak Slavic.
please don't throw wood on the fire :)
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 12:22 AM
Can you give a citation/quote on that? I haven't heard of Romance speakers in the Dinarics from that recently. Even Fortis, who claims that Morlachs have Romance/Vlach origins, states that they only speak Slavic.
Serbian and Croatian standard are based on speech of people who were derogatory marked as "Morlachs" by Venetians, of couse never existed people who call themselves like that.
Can you give a citation/quote on that? I haven't heard of Romance speakers in the Dinarics from that recently. Even Fortis, who claims that Morlachs have Romance/Vlach origins, states that they only speak Slavic.
Serbs have a lot of I2-Din which is from Slav invaders though
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 12:40 AM
Serbs have a lot of I2-Din which is from Slav invaders though
Orthodox and Catholic Serbs who were marked by Venetians as "Morlachs" have a lot I2-Din. Dalmatian Serbs are 45% I2-Din.
Stojan Janković was born in Žegar, he was known as leader of "Morlachs"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stojan_Janković
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs_(Venetian_irregulars)
On Serbian dna project there are 8-9 tested Serbs from Žegar (with different surnames) and all are I2-PH908.
Orthodox and Catholic Serbs who were marked by Venetians as "Morlachs" have a lot I2-Din. Dalmatian Serbs are 45% I2-Din.
Stojan Janković was born in Žegar, he was known as leader of "Morlachs"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stojan_Janković
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs_(Venetian_irregulars)
On Serbian dna project there are 8-9 tested Serbs from Žegar (with different surnames) and all are I2-PH908.
Croats from my and insuperable 23andme samples are rounded at 45% I2-din, and 30% R1a. Haha.
Can you give a citation/quote on that? I haven't heard of Romance speakers in the Dinarics from that recently. Even Fortis, who claims that Morlachs have Romance/Vlach origins, states that they only speak Slavic.
The term was initially used for a Vlach pastoralist community in the mountains of Croatia in the second half of the 14th until the early 16th century. Later, when the community straddled the Venetian–Ottoman border in the 17th century, it referred to Slavic-speaking, mainly Eastern Orthodox, and to a lesser degree Roman Catholic people.
The etymology of the exonym points to a connection with Vlachs, but as stated in Fortis' work Travels in Dalmatia, they were at that time Slavic-speaking. Because of migrations from various parts of the Balkans, the name had passed to later communities.
That's a sample from Bronze Age, the natives since then were clapped by dozens of populations.Its statistically impossible for you to have any portion of your DNA significantly from them, let alone half.
You don't want to understand that you can't model balkanites with 2 populations, let alone using ancient ones, you need like 30-50% medieval slav + dozens other populations.(mostly from early middle ages, with some from ancient period), you are yourself a mix of a dozen different ethnicities that you know of.
Iron Age sample (Illyrian proper) is not very different, just less NW and right at Bergamo average. It's identical to early Republican Romans/Italics apart from haplogroups.
Orthodox and Catholic Serbs who were marked by Venetians as "Morlachs" have a lot I2-Din. Dalmatian Serbs are 45% I2-Din.
Stojan Janković was born in Žegar, he was known as leader of "Morlachs"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stojan_Janković
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs_(Venetian_irregulars)
On Serbian dna project there are 8-9 tested Serbs from Žegar (with different surnames) and all are I2-PH908.
Fortis spotted the physical difference between Morlachs; those from around Kotor, Sinj and Knin were generally blond-haired, with blue eyes, and broad faces, while those around Zadvarje and Vrgorac were generally brown-haired with narrow faces. They also differed in nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs
my father is the blue eyed broad face "Morlach" type then :lol:
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 12:51 AM
Orthodox and Catholic Serbs who were marked by Venetians as "Morlachs" have a lot I2-Din. Dalmatian Serbs are 45% I2-Din.
Stojan Janković was born in Žegar, he was known as leader of "Morlachs"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stojan_Janković
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs_(Venetian_irregulars)
On Serbian dna project there are 8-9 tested Serbs from Žegar (with different surnames) and all are I2-PH908.
On Serbian dna project I found 8 tested Serbs from born village of "Morlach" leader Stojan Janković https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Žegar,_Croatia
Lukić (Žegar) - I2-PH908
Krnjaja (Žegar) - I2-PH908
Milić (Žegar) - I2-PH908
Prodanović (Žegar) - I2-PH908
Ušljebrka (Žegar) - I2-PH908
Rakić (Žegar) - I2-PH908
Nanić (Žegar) - I2>I-S17250
Mirilo (Žegar) - I2>I-Z17855
InfamousAngel99
12-20-2019, 12:53 AM
Thanks for the heads up!
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 01:13 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs
my father is the blue eyed broad face "Morlach" type then :lol:
:thumb001:
Morlach stronk!
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 01:20 AM
Iron Age sample (Illyrian proper) is not very different, just less NW and right at Bergamo average. It's identical to early Republican Romans/Italics apart from haplogroups.
There's no Iron age illyrian sample, the only one that used to be was russian-like and even out of the euro cluster in the north-east part but the albos got it removed, and i'm repeating again what i've just previously said: you cannot model modern populations using 2 ancient ones.
Peterski
12-20-2019, 01:23 AM
Here is a portion of academic Armenian, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Scottish, Welsh and Irish samples:
Eurogenes K15 at first:
Sample,North_Sea,Atlantic,Baltic,Eastern_Euro,West _Med,West_Asian,East_Med,Red_Sea,South_Asian,South east_Asian,Siberian,Amerindian,Oceanian,Northeast_ African,Sub_Saharan
arm10,5.08,2.60,0,1.47,8.84,37.88,34.81,3.92,5.39, 0,0,0,0,0,0
arm11,5.75,0,0,2.65,6.39,42.68,39.77,1.70,0.14,0,0 ,0,0.82,0,0.08
arm12,0,0,1.60,0,8.96,56.88,29.79,0.56,0,0.36,0.56 ,0.24,0.26,0.42,0.36
arm13,2.98,9.33,8.04,5.82,6.28,34.95,25.13,3.23,3. 43,0,0.81,0,0,0,0
arm14,11.94,9.82,16.61,13.00,5.04,21.53,16.35,3.12 ,0,0,1.29,0.28,0.75,0,0.26
arm17,5.92,1.12,0,3.52,7.90,37.07,36.04,5.38,1.75, 0.43,0,0,0.87,0,0.01
arm18,5.25,0,0,0,10.12,44.59,38.30,0.64,0.48,0,0.5 7,0,0.04,0,0
arm19,2.71,0,2.21,1.72,0.97,38.09,49.89,0.68,2.97, 0,0,0,0,0,0.77
arm20,1.22,0,3.66,0,8.48,58.17,25.02,2.04,0,1.04,0 ,0,0.37,0,0
arm21,16.86,7.81,22.31,19.70,7.02,17.68,5.91,0,1.6 2,0,0,0.04,0.44,0.28,0.32
arm23,0,0,0,2.58,10.97,51.06,32.46,2.45,0.25,0,0,0 ,0.23,0,0
arm26,1.87,0.69,0.61,0,10.85,50.12,28.31,4.42,2.83 ,0,0,0.10,0,0,0.20
arm3,1.49,0,3.31,0.18,9.91,37.93,42.51,2.41,0.09,1 .29,0,0.10,0.78,0,0
arm4,3.29,0,0,3.72,2.86,50.60,36.21,0.01,2.19,0,0, 0.86,0.27,0,0
arm5,0.04,0,0.16,0.22,9.84,50.73,35.55,2.17,1.26,0 ,0,0,0,0,0.03
arm6,0,2.52,0.12,0,10.81,48.86,36.58,0,0.60,0.03,0 ,0.08,0.41,0,0
arm7,11.08,10.80,12.96,13.79,3.21,19.60,18.75,4.11 ,1.83,0,2.74,0,0.59,0.24,0.31
arm8,0,9.25,0,0,6.15,40.87,39.15,3.40,0,0,0,1.06,0 .12,0,0
arm9,1.87,2.50,4.23,2.09,7.82,36.98,35.38,3.20,5.1 4,0,0,0.78,0,0,0
armenia102,0,6.81,5.69,0,0,44.54,39.78,1.90,0.30,0 .65,0,0,0.32,0,0
armenia106,7.34,0.24,1.41,0,3.10,39.20,44.85,0,3.5 7,0.27,0.02,0,0,0,0
armenia139,2.97,0,0.57,0,4.92,37.06,48.17,4.71,0.9 3,0,0,0.21,0.46,0,0
armenia162,0,8.42,0,0,3.77,44.18,36.55,5.91,0.95,0 ,0,0,0.18,0,0.03
armenia176,6.02,0,0.70,0.59,10.72,36.67,34.60,6.22 ,4.45,0,0,0,0.03,0,0
armenia191,0,5.28,0,6.65,4.10,44.57,37.22,1.96,0,0 ,0,0,0.22,0,0
armenia279,0,0.52,0,4.60,3.41,36.11,48.58,5.60,0.1 5,0.07,0,0.18,0.78,0,0
armenia293,0,6.33,0.55,0,1.62,42.23,47.33,0,1.31,0 .59,0,0,0.04,0,0
armenia3,0.73,5.75,1.81,5.44,7.39,36.98,35.74,4.11 ,1.87,0,0,0.17,0,0,0
armenia36,0,0,3.53,0,8.46,41.35,42.78,1.99,1.57,0, 0,0,0.33,0,0
armenia7,2.97,5.78,0.39,0.60,8.66,35.62,36.45,6.82 ,2.43,0,0,0.06,0,0.21,0
armenia71,1.55,4.79,0,3.06,2.28,42.81,36.49,5.34,3 .50,0,0,0.18,0,0,0
armenia73,8.16,0,0.03,2.50,1.33,39.99,43.95,1.53,1 .73,0,0.27,0,0.31,0.10,0.10
armenia80,3.55,3.38,3.40,0,8.24,34.99,35.36,8.43,2 .56,0,0,0.09,0,0,0
armenia86,0,8.96,2.71,0,1.75,41.34,40.48,2.21,2.56 ,0,0,0,0,0,0
armenia91,0,3.73,0,0.97,6.32,43.99,37.15,5.97,0.99 ,0,0,0.38,0.52,0,0
IRL001,39.37,31.48,9.03,10.19,6.27,2.82,0,0,0.45,0 ,0,0.39,0,0,0
IRL002,37.21,34.81,10.86,5.04,7.49,2.47,0,0,1.09,0 ,0,1.03,0,0,0
IRL003,35.66,30.04,9.92,8.49,9.29,5.15,0,0,0.20,0, 0.45,0.37,0.42,0,0
IRL004,34.39,31.87,7.40,6.87,8.52,9.12,0.81,0,0,0, 0,0.49,0.53,0,0
IRL005,40.87,28.70,8.04,9.82,6.82,2.77,0,0,1.76,0, 0,1.24,0,0,0
IRL006,34.90,31.85,9.80,8.59,6.90,5.45,0,0,0,0,0,1 .47,1.01,0,0.03
IRL007,39.28,30.92,8.73,9.26,7.46,3.12,0,0.95,0,0, 0,0.05,0.14,0.09,0
SCO002,34.08,29.85,9.56,11.15,7.81,2.71,1.81,0.75, 1.70,0,0,0.56,0,0,0
SCO003,32.72,35.46,12.98,6.69,4.83,5.17,0,0.81,0.6 2,0.15,0,0.56,0,0,0
SCO005,40.45,31.03,8.58,8.09,6.12,4.05,0.90,0,0.50 ,0,0,0.08,0.11,0.09,0
SCO006,42.15,22.91,9.45,7.35,10.08,3.52,3.46,0.68, 0,0,0,0.21,0,0.06,0.11
SCO008,34.29,32.85,7.22,12.06,8.16,4.21,0,0,0.86,0 ,0,0.12,0.23,0,0
Scottish1,33.95,29.75,9.68,11.22,7.78,2.97,1.56,0. 76,1.72,0,0,0.57,0.05,0,0
Scottish2,32.92,35.36,12.85,6.83,4.80,4.95,0,0.89, 0.71,0.05,0,0.64,0,0,0
Scottish4,40.67,30.90,8.19,8.24,6.16,3.96,1.00,0,0 .56,0,0,0.08,0.10,0.14,0
Scottish5,41.55,23.02,9.45,7.51,10.05,3.68,3.58,0. 75,0,0,0,0.28,0,0.14,0
Scottish6,34.37,32.89,7.23,12.20,8.19,3.94,0,0,0.8 4,0,0,0.11,0.23,0,0
UAE004,0,1.44,0,9.04,0,28.45,20.44,3.62,24.62,0,0, 1.07,0.60,0.88,9.84
UAE005,1.64,0,0,0.38,3.37,14.54,36.68,24.64,7.71,0 ,0,0,0.47,5.41,5.17
UAE008,0,1.55,4.50,4.38,0,21.98,15.03,2.98,47.20,0 .82,0.92,0,0,0,0.63
UAE038,1.99,0,0,0,4.64,10.42,41.48,34.42,1.36,0.41 ,0,0.53,1.00,3.75,0
UAE041,0,3.96,0.75,1.60,0,17.40,28.82,13.25,13.48, 0,0.13,0.50,0.02,7.07,13.02
UAE042,0.11,2.58,0,0,2.49,9.58,43.28,35.64,1.62,0. 41,1.12,0,0,3.18,0
UAE047,0,0,0,3.40,0.06,13.48,34.31,26.07,12.57,0,0 .71,0,0,5.87,3.53
UAE048,0,1.54,0,3.28,1.58,15.97,37.06,21.39,8.30,0 ,0.07,0,0,5.31,5.49
UAE090,0,3.06,0,0,0.77,7.67,44.15,40.58,0.85,0.18, 0,0,0.64,2.10,0
UAE1,0,1.44,0.01,8.92,0,28.67,20.41,3.54,24.57,0,0 ,1.05,0.64,0.94,9.81
UAE10,0,3.13,0,0,0.86,7.48,43.93,40.65,1.03,0.06,0 ,0,0.72,2.13,0
UAE11,0,0.21,1.37,0,1.74,9.04,43.40,36.62,3.57,0,0 .25,0.60,0.61,2.61,0
UAE111,0,0.23,1.66,0,1.46,8.80,43.35,36.85,3.62,0, 0.34,0.55,0.60,2.54,0
UAE12,0,0,0,6.09,0.52,15.81,31.94,20.39,10.07,0,0, 0.13,0.67,3.60,10.77
UAE125,0,0,0,6.03,0.62,15.91,31.91,20.30,10.04,0,0 ,0.10,0.68,3.65,10.78
UAE127,1.25,0,0,0.03,5.81,12.50,42.61,32.58,0.39,0 ,0.53,1.20,0.60,2.50,0
UAE13,1.36,0,0,0,6.03,12.65,42.19,32.62,0.38,0,0.4 9,1.17,0.60,2.50,0
UAE131,0,0.83,0,1.33,4.44,9.50,23.24,12.49,40.47,0 .16,1.39,0.87,0.97,3.09,1.22
UAE14,0,0.59,0,1.50,4.42,9.56,23.22,12.67,40.28,0. 36,1.25,0.86,0.92,3.33,1.04
UAE2,1.43,0,0,0.27,3.62,14.50,36.89,24.54,7.61,0,0 ,0,0.54,5.39,5.20
UAE3,0,1.34,4.60,4.37,0,21.87,15.17,2.94,47.45,0.6 8,0.92,0,0,0,0.65
UAE4,2.26,0,0,0,4.76,10.06,41.45,34.37,1.31,0.46,0 ,0.56,0.99,3.78,0
UAE5,0,4.11,0.70,1.56,0,17.45,28.70,13.31,13.26,0, 0.08,0.56,0,7.26,13.01
UAE6,0.04,2.82,0,0,2.57,9.36,43.30,35.54,1.47,0.37 ,1.15,0,0,3.38,0
UAE7,0,0,0,3.65,0,13.30,34.31,26.12,12.58,0,0.72,0 ,0,5.58,3.74
UAE8,0,1.33,0,3.39,1.79,16.01,37.16,21.21,8.23,0,0 .07,0,0,5.19,5.63
UAE9,0,0,2.64,7.97,0,18.78,10.57,1.86,18.87,0,0.29 ,0,0.11,7.93,30.99
WAL001,33.85,35.44,10.76,5.71,8.28,3.99,0,0.62,0.3 7,0,0,0.86,0.12,0,0
WAL002,34.48,29.58,10.77,9.73,7.33,5.76,0.37,0,0,0 ,0,0.11,0.51,1.33,0.04
WAL003,33.31,26.26,13.62,11.42,9.53,4.21,0,0.84,0. 81,0,0,0,0,0,0
WAL004,35.42,30.92,7.69,10.80,8.71,4.63,0,0.29,0.3 7,0,0,1.18,0,0,0
Welsh1,33.37,35.67,11.00,5.56,8.15,4.02,0,0.60,0.4 3,0,0,0.96,0.22,0,0
Welsh2,34.70,29.51,10.82,9.59,7.16,5.67,0.67,0,0,0 ,0,0.16,0.49,1.18,0.05
Welsh3,33.12,26.06,13.82,11.60,9.41,4.38,0,0.83,0. 77,0,0,0,0,0,0
Welsh4,35.46,30.87,7.76,10.50,8.60,4.80,0,0.41,0.3 5,0,0,1.24,0,0,0
I'm posting all individuals instead of averages as each group has some diversity, would be cool to check it.
=====
Edit:
Wait a moment I will post Eurogenes K15 averages for these samples as well, below:
Armenia 35 academic samples:
Armenia35avg,3.16,3.33,2.76,2.71,6.24,40.51,35.75, 3.03,1.68,0.14,0.18,0.14,0.26,0.04,0.07
Ireland 7 academic samples:
Ireland7avg,37.38,31.38,9.11,8.32,7.54,4.41,0.12,0 .14,0.50,0,0.06,0.72,0.30,0.01,0
Scotland 10 academic samples:
Scotland10avg,36.72,30.40,9.52,9.13,7.40,3.92,1.23 ,0.46,0.75,0.02,0,0.32,0.07,0.04,0.01
UAE, 27 academic samples:
Uae27avg,0.37,1.12,0.60,2.49,1.91,14.47,33.15,22.6 4,13.44,0.14,0.39,0.36,0.42,3.67,4.83
Wales 8 academic samples:
Welsh8avg,34.21,30.54,10.78,9.36,8.40,4.68,0.13,0. 45,0.39,0,0,0.56,0.17,0.31,0.01
There's no Iron age illyrian sample, the only one that used to be was russian-like and even out of the euro cluster in the north-east part but the albos got it removed, and i'm repeating again what i've just previously said: you cannot model modern populations using 2 ancient ones.
Yes there is, available on G25 and cited in recent Roman study. It is North Italian like. Sample you speak about had laughable low number of snps are thus funny results.
Mingle
12-20-2019, 01:40 AM
There's no Iron age illyrian sample, the only one that used to be was russian-like and even out of the euro cluster in the north-east part but the albos got it removed, and i'm repeating again what i've just previously said: you cannot model modern populations using 2 ancient ones.
The sample you're thinking of that got removed was a Bronze Age sample from Montenegro.
Peterski
12-20-2019, 01:42 AM
Armenia35avg compared to updated K15 spreadsheet:
https://i.imgur.com/PYRMwcS.png
Scotland10avg compared to updated K15 spreadsheet:
https://i.imgur.com/5LL0TVa.png
Ireland7avg compared to updated K15 spreadsheet:
https://i.imgur.com/yEMC38r.png
Welsh8avg (I guess there was no Welsh average so far?):
https://i.imgur.com/0xoJSJv.png
Mingle
12-20-2019, 01:49 AM
The term was initially used for a Vlach pastoralist community in the mountains of Croatia in the second half of the 14th until the early 16th century.
Okay. Can you post some quotes on people from the Dinarics speaking Romance (from that time period)? I haven't really heard of such people and info isn't easy to find on them.
Peterski
12-20-2019, 01:53 AM
United Arab Emirates samples, only top 1st closest population to each sample:
Distance to: UAE8
10.65488620 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE7
15.68126589 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE6
3.90126902 Saudi
Distance to: UAE5 [strong SSA admixture]
19.75588520 Syrian
Distance to: UAE4
3.87944584 Saudi
Distance to: UAE3
11.75433537 Sindhi
Distance to: UAE2
9.51299112 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE14
29.24029070 Makrani
Distance to: UAE131
29.31642884 Makrani
Distance to: UAE13
5.76034721 Saudi
Distance to: UAE127
5.47792844 Saudi
Distance to: UAE125 [strong SSA admixture]
16.88413160 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE12 [strong SSA admixture]
16.93124331 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE111
5.49577110 Saudi
Distance to: UAE11
5.13335173 Saudi
Distance to: UAE10
8.36545277 Saudi
Distance to: UAE1
6.72547396 Iranian_Bandari
Distance to: UAE090
8.32863134 Saudi
Distance to: UAE048
10.71774230 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE047
15.56169978 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE042
3.97232929 Saudi
Distance to: UAE041 [strong SSA admixture]
19.81676058 Syrian
Distance to: UAE038
3.93472998 Saudi
Distance to: UAE008
11.61099479 Sindhi
Distance to: UAE005
9.74378776 Bedouin
Distance to: UAE004
6.89483865 Iranian_Bandari
Distance to: UAE9 [strong SSA admixture]
31.73575428 Iranian_Bandari
=======
SUMMARY:
Saudi = 10 occurences
Bedouin = 8 occurences
Iranian_Bandari = 3 occurences
Makrani = 2 occurences
Syrian = 2 occurences
Sindhi = 2 occurences
Peterski
12-20-2019, 02:00 AM
Armenia35avg compared to updated K15 spreadsheet:
https://i.imgur.com/PYRMwcS.png
Armenians, one-by-one individual analysis, top 1st closest population to each sample:
Distance to: armenia91
5.66559794 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: armenia86
11.81969966 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: armenia80
5.06272654 Armenian_West
Distance to: armenia73
13.06688180 Kurd
Distance to: armenia71
7.96595255 Armenian_East
Distance to: armenia7
4.80192670 Armenian_West
Distance to: armenia36
10.58831904 Greek_Trabzon
Distance to: armenia3
5.34208761 Armenian_West
Distance to: armenia293
16.53057773 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: armenia279
10.34473779 Iranian_Jew
Distance to: armenia191
9.10285669 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: armenia176
5.77309276 Armenian_West
Distance to: armenia162
8.08732960 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: armenia139
11.30822709 Iranian_Jew
Distance to: armenia106
14.34588443 Kurd
Distance to: armenia102
12.26363323 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: arm9
5.30393250 Armenian_West
Distance to: arm8
9.00579813 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: arm7
14.35068639 Gagauz
Distance to: arm6
7.72787810 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: arm5
8.85441133 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: arm4
11.17270334 Turk_Meskhetian
Distance to: arm3
9.28437397 Greek_Trabzon
Distance to: arm26
6.56187473 Georgian_Laz
Distance to: arm23
7.97439653 Georgian_Laz
Distance to: arm21
12.63552532 Moldavian
Distance to: arm20
9.37326517 Abhkasian
Distance to: arm19
13.50181099 Iranian_Jew
Distance to: arm18
8.65568599 Turkish_Trabzon
Distance to: arm17
4.54551427 Armenian_West
Distance to: arm14
13.70393374 Gagauz
Distance to: arm13
9.82283564 Turkish_Anatolia
Distance to: arm12
11.88543226 Georgian_Laz
Distance to: arm11
9.95061807 Greek_Trabzon
Distance to: arm10
5.13598092 Armenian_East
=======
SUMMARY:
Turkish_Trabzon = 10 occurences
Armenian_West = 6 occurences
Greek_Trabzon = 3 occurences
Georgian_Laz = 3 occurences
Iranian_Jew = 3 occurences
Armenian_East = 2 occurences
Kurd = 2 occurences
Gagauz = 2 occurences
Turkish_Anatolia = 1 occurence
Turk_Meskhetian = 1 occurence
Abhkasian = 1 occurence
Moldavian = 1 occurence
Harappaworld results with additional populations added thanks to Mingle. Surprisingly after living in West Asia for 100s or 1000s of years I expected that as Kurds we would be 10 times closer to our Assyrian and other local neighbors than Eastern Iranics or some Central Asians but it doesn't seem to be the case.
https://i.imgur.com/e5vpmGd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qRRRekr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0cPEsSx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DoHZi1j.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kdV9XpJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BcwWbjf.jpg
Peterski
12-20-2019, 02:28 AM
What kind of Diaspora is this?:
United Arab Emirates academic sample 14:
Target: UAE14
Distance: 1.4974% / 1.49736466
37.2 Piramalai
24.0 Yemenite_Jewish
14.0 Velamas
11.0 Saudi
6.6 Moroccan
5.6 Kurdish_Jew
1.0 Selkup
0.4 Anzick-1
0.2 Yoruban
United Arab Emirates academic sample 131:
Target: UAE131
Distance: 1.5016% / 1.50155678
39.6 Piramalai
23.2 Yemenite_Jewish
11.8 Velamas
10.6 Saudi
5.2 Moroccan
4.0 Samaritan
3.6 Kurdish_Jew
1.0 Selkup
0.4 Yoruban
0.2 Chukchi
0.2 Karitiana
0.2 Sardinian
What kind of Diaspora is this?:
United Arab Emirates academic sample 14:
Target: UAE14
Distance: 1.4974% / 1.49736466
37.2 Piramalai
24.0 Yemenite_Jewish
14.0 Velamas
11.0 Saudi
6.6 Moroccan
5.6 Kurdish_Jew
1.0 Selkup
0.4 Anzick-1
0.2 Yoruban
United Arab Emirates academic sample 131:
Target: UAE131
Distance: 1.5016% / 1.50155678
39.6 Piramalai
23.2 Yemenite_Jewish
11.8 Velamas
10.6 Saudi
5.2 Moroccan
4.0 Samaritan
3.6 Kurdish_Jew
1.0 Selkup
0.4 Yoruban
0.2 Chukchi
0.2 Karitiana
0.2 Sardinian
They are South Indians. There is alot of Indian-Arab mixing in UAE
Peterski
12-20-2019, 02:35 AM
I have many more academic Armenians, will post K15 results of a few hundreds of them soon.
===========
Second portion:
38 samples of South-Western Armenians, Eurogenes K15 average:
Armenian_Southwest,2.17,3.80,1.77,2.19,9.35,33.82, 37.66,6.55,2.17,0.06,0.06,0.05,0.27,0.08,0.01
https://i.imgur.com/QpHGCxT.png
Individual results (without sample names, the first column is North_Sea):
NorthSea,Atlantic,Baltic,EasternEuro,WestMed,WestA sian,EastMed,RedSea,SouthAsian,SoutheastAsian,Sibe rian,Amerindian,Oceanian,NortheastAfrican,SubSahar an
1.09,4.56,1.68,2.26,9.33,32.74,37.8,6.59,3.93,0.02 ,0,0,0,0,0
3.81,0,1.75,5.29,9.34,33.67,35.77,7.98,1.96,0,0,0, 0.43,0,0
6.41,0.08,0.7,5.32,10.7,35.82,33.06,5.17,1.51,0,0, 0.08,0.38,0.71,0.06
2.08,3.2,2.16,1.85,12.93,34.75,37.35,3.01,2.17,0,0 ,0.05,0.46,0,0
3.21,4.81,2.81,2.97,9.02,33.64,35.71,6.72,1.12,0,0 ,0,0,0,0
0.88,6.75,3.23,2.32,9.22,32.64,36.67,5.89,1.77,0.3 8,0.25,0,0,0,0
0.6,4.47,0.84,0.89,9.62,38.66,37.04,5.21,2.67,0,0, 0,0,0,0
3.74,3.84,0,4.17,7.03,37.09,35.84,5.41,2.31,0,0,0, 0.58,0,0
0,7.93,1.99,3.46,7.93,31.43,38.97,6.68,1.01,0,0.18 ,0,0,0.43,0
0,6.69,4.16,2.31,10.29,31.55,34.66,7.6,2.73,0,0,0, 0,0,0
2.84,3.82,4.04,0.52,8.07,32.44,37.97,5.47,3.03,0.8 6,0,0,0.94,0,0
1.97,2.06,1.91,0.62,10.6,36.9,35.8,7.48,2.51,0.04, 0,0,0.11,0,0
0.8,6.05,1.87,2.73,7.41,33,39.28,6.18,2.25,0,0,0,0 ,0.43,0
2.72,3.88,0,2.27,8.5,36.14,39.08,4.35,1.82,0,1.26, 0,0,0,0
3.7,4.83,0,4.85,7.11,29.25,38.63,9.31,2.32,0,0,0,0 ,0,0
4.41,4.78,0,0,10.25,31.71,41.43,5.86,1.22,0,0,0,0. 35,0,0
0.69,1.69,3.95,6.38,10.56,29.4,39.26,5.16,2.33,0,0 ,0,0.5,0.07,0
4.8,8.05,2.77,0,8.42,29.25,36.06,7.13,3.45,0,0,0.0 5,0,0,0
0,6.28,0.51,2.14,8.4,35.38,37.95,8.14,1.17,0,0,0,0 .01,0,0
3.48,0.15,0.95,1.52,11.62,33.6,39.02,6.56,1.9,0.45 ,0,0.01,0.74,0,0
1.05,2.24,2.65,0.34,8.9,38.47,37.96,5.38,2.79,0,0, 0,0,0.22,0
1.88,5.01,3.73,0,8.4,31.77,40.22,7.61,0.68,0,0,0,0 .48,0.22,0
2.04,5,0,0.09,11.27,35.62,38.51,5.23,1.18,0.39,0.4 3,0,0.24,0,0
1.24,4.53,0.66,2.6,9.92,33.89,38.29,4.61,3.14,0,0, 0,1.02,0,0.1
5.01,0.35,0,0.28,11.73,32.17,39.89,7.08,3.08,0,0,0 ,0.41,0,0
0,7.48,0,2.21,9.5,33.22,37.02,7.62,2.94,0,0,0,0,0, 0
0,7.05,1.2,1.89,8.92,33.25,36.16,8.01,3,0,0,0.53,0 ,0,0
0.13,1.71,1.97,4.5,9.71,34.29,39.41,6.03,1.96,0,0, 0,0.25,0,0.03
2.28,2.04,1.62,5.16,8.59,35.05,36.42,7.59,0.9,0,0, 0,0.13,0.23,0
1.84,8.08,1.29,0.59,6.68,35.24,35.61,7.42,2.9,0,0, 0,0.34,0,0
0,0.95,4.42,1.59,8.85,37.51,37.32,7.74,1.3,0,0,0.3 4,0,0,0
1.47,2.15,2.98,0.3,9.38,33.46,39.28,7.41,2.7,0,0,0 ,0.83,0,0.05
2.22,1.18,1.63,2.68,12.2,32.66,38.01,7.22,2.2,0,0, 0,0,0,0
4.26,3.08,2.37,1.95,8.42,33.32,36.44,6.34,3.68,0,0 ,0.14,0,0,0
3.24,4.92,0,1.43,8.04,34.62,38.12,6.67,1.89,0.06,0 .18,0,0.83,0,0
0.17,4.19,0.56,3.7,9.71,35.14,38.7,5.22,1.81,0,0,0 ,0.66,0.12,0.02
3.96,0,4.44,0.12,6.83,36.79,37.84,7.36,0.89,0,0,0. 73,0.57,0.45,0
4.31,0.34,2.53,1.86,11.83,29.71,38.65,8.34,2.32,0, 0,0.1,0,0,0
Peterski
12-20-2019, 02:57 AM
One hundred (n=100) academic samples of Armenians from several distinct regions of Armenia:
Armenians_n=100_Armenia,3.78,3.63,1.39,2.84,7.22,3 6.46,35.33,5.73,3.14,0.03,0.06,0.11,0.18,0.05,0.05
https://i.imgur.com/6PMpimV.png
They are of course different than those small samples posted before, from different sources.
Here are the results for each sample without sample names (first column is North_Sea):
NorthSea,Atlantic,Baltic,EasternEuro,WestMed,WestA sian,EastMed,RedSea,SouthAsian,SoutheastAsian,Sibe rian,Amerindian,Oceanian,NortheastAfrican,SubSahar an
12.65,3.04,5.67,5.77,5.08,36.34,25.9,4.24,0.88,0.3 ,0,0,0.13,0,0
6.3,6.67,0,2.91,7.34,32.64,34.69,6.2,2.7,0,0.53,0, 0.01,0,0
2.66,3.49,2.27,3.66,4,40.17,30.31,7.58,5.77,0,0,0, 0.1,0,0
0.17,2.35,1.89,3.25,6.68,41.44,34.22,5.83,2.57,0.6 1,0,0,0,0,0.99
8,0.1,0,2.99,9.08,33.91,36.28,4.37,3.92,0,0,1.04,0 .31,0,0
0,4.27,3.01,3.25,3.93,36.83,37.84,5.45,4.97,0.16,0 ,0.3,0,0,0
4.74,1.59,2.39,4.03,7.8,37.26,32.32,4.17,4.79,0,0. 7,0,0.22,0,0
1.36,5.88,1.79,2.88,6.71,36.87,32.64,8.03,2.28,0,0 ,0,0.8,0.75,0
0.48,3.04,2.04,8.26,6.01,38.77,32.78,5.51,2.82,0,0 ,0,0,0,0.3
8.04,8.48,5.52,7.19,7.23,30.17,27.68,4.29,1.41,0,0 ,0,0,0,0
1.45,6.18,1.52,3.67,5.62,38.57,34.47,4.45,3.04,0,0 ,0.85,0.19,0,0
4.68,2.17,1.06,3.84,5.78,37.3,36.41,4.58,3.06,0.05 ,0,0.18,0,0,0.9
5.29,4.75,1.35,0,6.96,37.89,34.54,4.15,4.14,0,0.32 ,0.11,0,0.5,0
7.48,3.49,2.06,1.88,6.33,37.81,32.66,5.3,1.79,0,0. 56,0,0.63,0,0
4.21,1.23,3.22,5.36,5.78,39.78,33.45,4.25,1.62,0,0 ,0.46,0,0.62,0
2.74,6.21,3.49,2.82,7.29,34.1,35.45,3.99,2.57,0,0, 0,0.48,0.02,0.85
1.1,4.62,0,3.34,7.85,36.85,36.55,6.47,3.23,0,0,0,0 ,0,0
6.02,0,1,1.84,12.08,32.33,34.55,6.45,5.33,0.04,0.2 6,0.1,0,0,0
2.42,6.93,0.68,1.65,6.16,37.25,37.09,6.49,0.52,0,0 ,0,0.42,0.21,0.19
3.43,4.7,0,2.43,7.79,33.6,37.64,7.61,2.41,0,0,0.39 ,0,0,0
7.65,0,4.59,0.28,6.35,38.12,33.78,5.13,3.48,0,0,0, 0.29,0.33,0
2.84,1.47,1.45,2.49,7.93,33.96,38.81,6.61,3.55,0,0 .08,0.37,0.43,0,0
7.73,3.79,0,4.86,6.59,35.27,33.59,4.4,3.18,0,0,0,0 .6,0,0
3.51,1.14,1.59,3.44,8.56,35.54,37.29,6.25,1.76,0,0 .33,0,0.59,0,0
11.38,0,0,2.9,6.71,37.72,31.75,5.09,4.45,0,0,0,0,0 ,0
3.35,1.64,2.48,2.78,7.52,37.28,36.35,7.22,0.4,0,0, 0.61,0.36,0,0
4.27,0,3.97,1.77,8.94,32.35,39.25,5.85,3.6,0,0,0,0 ,0,0
0.21,5.07,2.35,2.98,8.61,33.81,39.31,5.07,2.59,0,0 ,0,0,0,0
0,1.9,2.27,4.93,9.72,34.93,36.85,7.61,1.62,0,0,0,0 .17,0,0
3.67,4.85,1.99,1.16,6.66,36.63,37.32,5.28,2.37,0.0 6,0,0,0,0,0
1.32,4.65,1.69,3.12,7.09,33.39,39.05,5.58,3.81,0,0 ,0,0.3,0,0
0.74,2.34,0.53,3.62,8.86,36.19,40.2,5.46,1.19,0,0, 0.02,0.08,0.47,0.3
2.89,5.3,0,2.15,6.21,36.56,36.48,5.35,4.9,0,0,0,0, 0,0.16
4.24,3.88,2.04,4.31,8.12,37.64,32.59,4.09,3.11,0,0 ,0,0,0,0
1.78,7.04,1.55,5.8,4.44,40.19,27.6,7.09,4.51,0,0,0 ,0,0,0
0,8.15,1.47,4.16,5.29,37.44,33.96,6.19,3.33,0,0,0, 0,0,0
5.18,8.38,0.9,0,5.18,38.3,31.16,7.12,3.7,0,0,0.08, 0,0,0
0,5.12,0,3.07,6.85,34.42,40.45,6.08,3.64,0,0,0,0.3 7,0,0
2.93,2.14,1.57,1.71,8.95,36.92,38.94,6.18,0.6,0,0, 0,0.07,0,0
2.62,3.56,1.85,6.66,8.28,38.61,32.32,2.99,2.84,0,0 ,0.03,0,0.24,0
3.89,4.36,0.49,1.9,6.56,37.71,38.29,3.15,2.5,0.06, 1.04,0,0.06,0,0
4.12,3.58,0.73,3.85,7.14,38.23,34.51,4.16,3.3,0,0. 07,0.29,0,0.02,0
0.73,4.44,2.35,1.3,6.56,34.45,40.14,7.77,1.78,0,0, 0,0.48,0,0
5.34,5.19,2.86,0.68,5.06,35,37.63,4.72,3.23,0,0,0, 0.29,0,0
6.71,3.02,0.46,5,5.38,38.82,31.48,5.57,3.44,0,0,0, 0.12,0,0
4.7,0,1.75,0.17,9,34.27,40.52,6.19,2.62,0,0,0.59,0 .18,0,0
3.23,0.41,0,3.15,7.89,33.94,41.32,4.93,4.44,0,0,0. 7,0,0,0
1.63,3.08,0.35,4.64,7.66,34.84,39.07,4.41,3.12,0,0 ,0.74,0.46,0,0
0.92,3.67,3.77,0.8,6.86,34.52,37.97,8.07,2.31,0,0. 53,0,0.39,0.19,0
0.56,2.01,1.98,3.18,9.05,34.33,38.06,7.21,3.14,0.2 3,0.24,0,0,0,0
3.35,1.85,0,4.75,10.6,33.69,34.83,6.7,3.67,0.34,0, 0,0,0.21,0
0,8.4,1.13,2.37,9.18,33.41,34.44,7.33,3.75,0,0,0,0 ,0,0
5.66,2.59,0,1.38,7.29,37.88,36.82,5.78,1.72,0,0,0. 2,0.67,0,0
6.49,2.35,0,0.74,9.85,34.73,35.21,6.41,4.04,0,0,0, 0.18,0,0
0,9.86,3.26,1.96,7,35.6,34.15,5.7,2.37,0,0,0.1,0,0 ,0
0,1.65,0,5.28,9.89,35.77,36.49,7.66,3.25,0,0,0,0,0 ,0
0,6.94,0,0,8.97,38.66,34.4,7.19,3.62,0,0,0,0.22,0, 0
3.44,3.45,0.43,0.41,7.25,33.33,39.97,8.28,2.82,0,0 ,0.44,0,0.19,0
2.57,4.21,2,0.41,10.01,34.89,35.66,6.11,3.83,0.32, 0,0,0,0,0
0,5.98,1.08,1.46,4.57,35.66,40.92,6.56,3.59,0,0.18 ,0,0,0,0
6.55,1.07,0.7,1.27,8.75,31.78,39.7,6.73,2.83,0.55, 0,0.05,0,0,0
5.69,3.95,0,4.69,4.27,36.73,31.87,8.86,3.92,0,0,0. 03,0,0,0
8.04,0,0.9,6.56,4.14,37.1,34.8,4.96,3.44,0,0.05,0, 0,0,0
0,8.79,1.21,4.46,5.8,37.25,33.62,4.91,3.84,0,0.1,0 ,0,0,0
4.4,0.58,0,6.73,8.15,34.95,36.45,5.07,3.44,0.17,0, 0,0.06,0,0
3.28,0,1.22,4.27,9.48,39.62,32.32,7.46,2.23,0,0,0, 0,0.1,0
4.5,3.4,1.62,2.91,4.43,39.02,34.05,7.17,2.64,0,0,0 ,0,0,0.27
8.37,1.04,2.16,0.36,7.39,37.49,35.26,4.74,2.67,0,0 .51,0,0,0,0
4.47,6.86,0,0,7.99,36.63,35.01,4.59,4.42,0,0,0,0.0 3,0,0
2.79,5.01,0,0.97,5.98,38.51,37.73,3.51,4.38,0,0,0. 25,0.21,0.66,0
4.46,4.61,0,2.97,8.53,36.42,33.35,7.33,2.22,0,0,0. 11,0,0,0
6.61,3.43,1.04,0.69,4.53,38.3,35.78,6.44,2.79,0,0, 0,0.38,0,0
7.75,1.37,0,2.18,5.93,39.42,33.9,6.55,2.9,0,0,0,0, 0,0
7.05,2.74,0.26,0.54,7.17,35.05,35.67,6.79,4.56,0,0 ,0,0,0,0.16
4.18,4.41,1.95,2.82,5.19,38.57,32.69,6.09,4.04,0,0 ,0,0.07,0,0
0,6.65,1.88,3.2,8.98,35.8,34.02,6.1,2.84,0,0,0,0.5 1,0,0.02
3.73,4.62,3.01,0,8.19,36.57,33.03,6.4,2.96,0,0,0.3 5,0.59,0.53,0
5.33,1.75,4,0.98,7.06,37.16,34.31,4.78,3.83,0,0,0, 0.01,0,0.78
5.77,0.95,0,2.3,5.37,43.22,33.11,4.13,4.49,0,0,0.6 7,0,0,0
1.79,3.77,0,1.01,8.05,36.64,40.16,5.47,2.56,0,0.34 ,0.19,0,0,0.01
3.32,7.59,1.11,0.99,5.1,36.76,35.71,4.45,4.3,0,0,0 ,0.68,0,0
3.46,1.14,1.22,4.9,4.73,34.21,42.28,5.48,2.14,0,0, 0,0.12,0.32,0
8.43,0,2.59,1.47,7.11,37.82,34.44,6,1.68,0,0,0.26, 0.19,0,0
4.29,0.75,0,5.09,10.64,35.43,35.35,5.72,2.26,0,0,0 .07,0.4,0,0
3.67,3.97,2.66,3.06,6.12,34.63,37.72,4.42,3.43,0,0 .12,0,0.2,0,0
6.47,0.05,0,1.5,9.94,39.04,34.19,4.06,3.96,0,0,0,0 .79,0,0
0,7.43,1.44,3.63,6.27,37.04,33.13,7.49,3.18,0.03,0 ,0,0.37,0,0
1.35,6.18,1.29,2.77,6.35,35.26,39.79,4.6,1.48,0,0, 0.79,0.13,0,0
1.8,6.99,0.79,2.64,8.81,37.54,33.39,5.08,2.57,0,0. 01,0,0.37,0,0
11.47,0,0,3.07,8.88,36.76,31.62,3.87,3.38,0,0.17,0 .29,0.5,0,0
4.04,2.14,1.23,3.78,8.91,37.44,34.93,3.49,3.4,0,0, 0,0.65,0,0
4.62,5.76,0.4,6.09,7.4,37,30.81,5.62,1.99,0,0,0.27 ,0,0,0.06
2.02,1.68,2.94,3.33,7.96,38.34,34.56,3.52,4.62,0.5 3,0,0,0.5,0,0
7.47,3.83,0,1.02,5.04,36.52,36.91,4.93,4.27,0,0,0, 0,0,0
2.68,1.89,3.23,2.94,6.39,41.39,33.03,5.15,3.2,0,0, 0,0,0,0.12
3.46,1.94,1.96,1.78,7.19,37.86,35.27,7.51,2.93,0,0 ,0,0,0,0.09
0,4.55,1.45,4.13,8.93,39.96,29.56,6.93,4.51,0,0,0, 0,0,0
0.19,5.82,0,3.16,6.31,36.3,36.71,6.7,3.4,0,0,0,1.4 2,0,0
7.67,5.61,1.3,0,8.86,29.22,34.56,6.45,6.34,0,0,0,0 ,0,0
Mingle
12-20-2019, 03:00 AM
Here are some of my avearges for K15:
Bavarian,28.38,26.11,11.62,8.33,11.51,6.15,6.01,0. 76,0.10,0.21,0.10,0.23,0.30,0.13,0.05
Albanian-Kosovo,14.93,15.66,11.94,6.23,18.27,10.32,19.43,2. 54,0.09,0.30,0.04,0.04,0.21,0.00,0.00
Albanian-Macedonia,11.79,17.19,12.38,6.66,16.85,10.32,20.82 ,3.28,0.04,0.38,0.11,0.03,0.17,0.00,0.00
Albanian-North,14.45,14.29,11.27,5.18,18.11,11.91,21.57,2.6 8,0.00,0.03,0.05,0.15,0.24,0.07,0.00
Albanian-South,13.63,14.55,9.85,5.47,17.69,11.03,23.38,3.51 ,0.00,0.25,0.09,0.34,0.16,0.00,0.04
Austria-Burgenland,27.63,20.42,15.58,12.08,9.89,5.91,5.45, 0.69,0.63,0.01,0.05,0.86,0.34,0.27,0.19
Austria-Tyrol,25.37,22.36,10.49,8.78,13.81,8.06,8.11,1.89, 0.10,0.17,0.28,0.28,0.16,0.10,0.06
Belgium,32.68,27.36,9.52,7.25,10.65,5.06,5.22,0.60 ,0.64,0.07,0.13,0.11,0.22,0.32,0.15
Bosniak,16.68,16.19,21.25,13.20,11.12,8.39,10.75,1 .07,0.59,0.29,0.09,0.19,0.08,0.08,0.05
Bulgarian_Thracian,7.44,15.78,16.37,6.07,14.41,11. 92,22.38,2.27,2.17,0.67,0.28,0.00,0.25,0.00,0.00
Bulgarian,14.40,14.28,16.61,9.81,13.50,10.73,17.01 ,2.37,0.23,0.09,0.19,0.39,0.32,0.06,0.01
Italy_Emiliaromagna,17.94,19.13,7.04,3.17,20.08,8. 91,19.65,3.29,0.03,0.12,0.00,0.04,0.29,0.15,0.02
Italy_Friuli,19.00,21.50,10.42,6.03,17.50,7.38,14. 76,2.41,0.28,0.15,0.02,0.34,0.06,0.13,0.00
Italy_Lazio,15.18,17.36,7.06,2.43,19.99,9.92,23.83 ,3.74,0.07,0.14,0.03,0.10,0.03,0.05,0.09
Italy_Liguria,18.23,21.71,6.84,3.24,20.21,7.98,17. 82,3.03,0.11,0.17,0.07,0.23,0.24,0.03,0.08
Italy_Lombardy,21.50,22.45,6.34,2.73,20.71,6.38,16 .91,2.27,0.11,0.21,0.08,0.06,0.16,0.07,0.00
Italy_Marche,15.34,17.26,5.97,2.22,19.56,11.73,22. 54,4.32,0.21,0.10,0.00,0.37,0.10,0.27,0.07
Italy_Tuscany,17.25,20.05,6.52,2.79,20.41,9.07,19. 20,3.54,0.57,0.25,0.02,0.06,0.14,0.08,0.02
Italy_Veneto,21.07,21.37,8.50,5.45,18.65,7.15,14.6 9,2.42,0.14,0.18,0.05,0.08,0.15,0.09,0.00
France_Corsica,13.78,21.54,5.02,1.26,24.13,8.14,22 .27,3.14,0.01,0.27,0.07,0.04,0.26,0.06,0.01
Czech,23.49,20.03,22.22,13.99,9.20,4.59,3.88,1.05, 0.53,0.08,0.09,0.37,0.20,0.11,0.14
Danish,39.23,25.55,13.14,10.31,5.77,2.83,0.81,0.31 ,0.76,0.18,0.01,0.59,0.17,0.18,0.14
Dutch,36.81,27.02,10.81,9.42,8.04,3.92,1.47,0.72,0 .83,0.03,0.16,0.24,0.17,0.31,0.05
England,36.15,29.24,10.14,8.74,9.22,3.96,0.75,0.23 ,0.66,0.07,0.04,0.35,0.24,0.05,0.16
France-South,24.81,28.86,7.83,4.15,20.13,2.81,8.79,1.30,0 .44,0.08,0.09,0.39,0.13,0.09,0.07
Gagauz,13.85,12.01,15.31,9.84,13.82,12.36,18.58,2. 86,0.29,0.13,0.19,0.24,0.47,0.04,0.00
Greek_Crete,8.69,10.84,7.57,3.47,16.52,16.62,30.27 ,4.78,0.01,0.10,0.18,0.14,0.51,0.24,0.06
Macedonian,14.32,14.52,13.71,9.18,15.61,10.30,18.7 1,2.88,0.09,0.17,0.05,0.18,0.26,0.02,0.00
Italy_Aostavalley,26.62,25.03,7.48,4.39,17.71,6.75 ,9.38,1.80,0.00,0.02,0.17,0.19,0.14,0.15,0.16
Italy_Piedmont,21.38,25.13,7.86,4.01,19.32,6.70,12 .69,2.19,0.11,0.01,0.06,0.12,0.24,0.13,0.03
Italy_Trentino,21.92,21.72,11.28,5.55,18.46,5.83,1 3.09,1.32,0.00,0.03,0.11,0.16,0.47,0.06,0.00
Norway,39.19,23.96,13.30,11.79,6.40,2.39,0.24,0.07 ,0.47,0.05,1.08,0.58,0.25,0.17,0.06
Romania_Ne,16.39,15.98,19.22,12.75,10.65,9.33,11.6 2,1.95,0.04,0.36,1.26,0.07,0.08,0.25,0.04
Romania_Nw,17.07,15.18,18.02,13.43,12.11,7.48,12.8 4,1.27,0.27,0.46,1.21,0.31,0.34,0.02,0.00
Romania_Se,17.84,12.38,15.14,11.64,15.21,7.88,14.2 2,2.06,1.27,0.21,1.00,0.64,0.29,0.23,0.00
Romania_South,16.57,13.97,16.17,8.97,13.72,11.44,1 5.14,2.36,0.15,0.55,0.25,0.54,0.16,0.00,0.05
Romania_Sw,16.69,14.59,17.91,8.98,13.57,9.89,14.00 ,2.04,0.58,0.00,1.08,0.29,0.40,0.00,0.00
Scotland,37.96,28.39,9.51,10.04,7.46,3.26,1.28,0.2 6,0.76,0.03,0.19,0.48,0.13,0.03,0.25
South_Serbian,17.53,16.17,15.54,11.30,13.19,10.26, 13.26,1.49,0.07,0.04,0.04,0.42,0.28,0.10,0.29
Slovak,24.13,15.37,23.26,17.25,8.47,3.93,3.58,1.55 ,0.70,0.00,0.26,0.42,0.33,0.43,0.05
Slovenian,21.68,18.51,20.42,14.29,10.90,5.88,6.34, 0.99,0.29,0.09,0.11,0.18,0.15,0.11,0.03
Italy_Abruzzo,11.25,15.03,6.36,2.91,16.39,15.65,26 .38,5.48,0.00,0.08,0.00,0.00,0.23,0.17,0.07
Italy_Apulia,9.50,14.93,6.66,2.94,17.44,14.90,27.2 4,4.99,0.03,0.05,0.00,0.18,0.58,0.55,0.01
Italy_Calabria,8.07,12.92,4.55,1.98,17.48,15.12,31 .66,6.46,0.13,0.11,0.04,0.09,0.36,0.97,0.07
Italy_Campania,8.83,15.10,5.33,2.06,18.31,14.96,29 .68,5.57,0.12,0.14,0.04,0.06,0.13,0.56,0.08
Italy_Central_Sicily,8.94,14.64,4.78,1.31,17.60,14 .12,29.14,6.68,0.05,0.15,0.03,0.14,0.20,1.84,0.36
Italy_East_Sicily,8.07,12.81,4.41,1.82,18.07,15.44 ,30.59,6.26,0.22,0.18,0.13,0.07,0.23,1.20,0.48
Italy_West_Sicily,9.37,13.38,4.79,1.71,18.12,13.93 ,30.01,5.89,0.32,0.25,0.05,0.16,0.21,0.98,0.85
North_Swedish,37.45,23.37,14.64,13.68,6.12,1.22,0. 23,0.11,0.75,0.18,0.91,0.78,0.43,0.02,0.11
Aland_Sweden,32.07,22.77,18.94,17.59,4.27,0.00,0.0 3,0.00,1.25,0.04,1.91,0.78,0.34,0.00,0.00
Swedish,38.75,24.05,14.44,11.79,5.64,2.45,0.29,0.2 7,0.74,0.11,0.43,0.55,0.29,0.08,0.11
Ukraine_East,18.08,13.38,31.97,22.31,6.69,2.68,1.1 0,0.14,1.86,0.29,0.40,0.42,0.36,0.20,0.12
The Bulgarian Thrace sample is much closer to Greeks than to Bulgarians proper. Are they Aegean Bulgarians from Greek Thrace?
Peterski
12-20-2019, 03:04 AM
What do you think about this huge sample of 100 Armenians? Average is close to both West and East Armenians:
Armenians_n=100_Armenia,3.78,3.63,1.39,2.84,7.22,3 6.46,35.33,5.73,3.14,0.03,0.06,0.11,0.18,0.05,0.05
https://i.imgur.com/6PMpimV.png
They are from several different regions/cities, but all within present-day country Armenia (if Google Maps is right).
Mingle
12-20-2019, 03:07 AM
For K 13
Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55, 16.36,8.88,1.83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0. 21
Nusayri,5.95,1.56,13.93,24.33,39.43,9.69,1.82,0.42 ,0.76,0.21,0.35,1.28,0.23
Georgian_imereti,2.27,2.24,11.58,54.44,23.83,1.88, 2.24,0.27,0.06,0,0.89,0.01,0.25
Which country is the Nusayri from? Syria?
Mingle
12-20-2019, 03:11 AM
What do you think about this huge sample of 100 Armenians? Average is close to both West and East Armenians:
Armenians_n=100_Armenia,3.78,3.63,1.39,2.84,7.22,3 6.46,35.33,5.73,3.14,0.03,0.06,0.11,0.18,0.05,0.05
https://i.imgur.com/6PMpimV.png
They are from several different regions/cities, but all within present-day country Armenia (if Google Maps is right).
Probably a mix of East Armenians (native to modern day Armenia) and West Armenian migrants. It's pretty interesting it gets West Armenians as it's top population. East Armenians may have a decent amount of diversity. I didn't expect them to have any notable amount given the size of their country.
Also, this should be the new Armenian average on K15.
Okay. Can you post some quotes on people from the Dinarics speaking Romance (from that time period)? I haven't really heard of such people and info isn't easy to find on them.
There are no many sources to tell the truth. Classic historians consider in medieval only eastern and southern Balkans had strong Romanophone Vlach presence (especially Epirus and Thessaly - called Great Wallachia), who later migrated north and west, and this was intensified by Ottoman conquest. Theory goes to say how those Vlachs became Slavophone in Serbia and Bosnia, and admixed with local south Slavs, by the time they arrived to Croatia they were already not very different from autochtonous populations.
Peterski
12-20-2019, 03:20 AM
Top 1st most similar populations for each of 100 Armenians from the large group, using K15:
Distance to: sample1.txt
8.87403516 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample2.txt
6.10656204 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample3.txt
4.95624858 Turkish_East
Distance to: sample4.txt
3.74338082 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample5.txt
4.11110691 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample6.txt
7.06950493 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample7.txt
4.57803451 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample8.txt
5.04690004 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample9.txt
3.51008547 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample10.txt
9.86892598 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample11.txt
4.06535361 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample12.txt
6.81457996 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample13.txt
5.43629469 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample14.txt
6.55656922 Greek_Trabzon
Distance to: sample15.txt
5.00907177 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample16.txt
3.58895528 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample17.txt
6.95898700 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample18.txt
6.64066262 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample19.txt
5.92984823 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample20.txt
5.85975255 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample21.txt
7.12361565 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample22.txt
4.80038540 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample23.txt
3.85626763 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample24.txt
5.38109654 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample25.txt
2.51207086 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample26.txt
6.45655481 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample27.txt
5.83566620 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample28.txt
5.59656144 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample29.txt
3.71295031 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample30.txt
6.32765359 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample31.txt
5.65756131 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample32.txt
6.89790548 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample33.txt
3.59208853 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample34.txt
5.41176496 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample35.txt
5.15875954 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample36.txt
6.37491961 Turkish_East
Distance to: sample37.txt
6.35547795 Kurd
Distance to: sample38.txt
5.97380113 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample39.txt
5.48276390 Assyrian
Distance to: sample40.txt
6.95292744 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample41.txt
3.90216607 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample42.txt
3.78132252 Assyrian
Distance to: sample43.txt
6.18134290 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample44.txt
4.58287028 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample45.txt
7.58965085 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample46.txt
5.35621135 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample47.txt
5.17185653 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample48.txt
7.52133632 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample49.txt
3.91485632 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample50.txt
4.08547427 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample51.txt
5.12271412 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample52.txt
4.95947578 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample53.txt
5.61977758 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample54.txt
6.18624280 Assyrian
Distance to: sample55.txt
5.02350475 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample56.txt
7.04736830 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample57.txt
5.07882861 Assyrian
Distance to: sample58.txt
2.94930500 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample59.txt
5.96446980 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample60.txt
5.08377812 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample61.txt
4.24517373 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample62.txt
5.40690300 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample63.txt
6.32667369 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample64.txt
6.02342926 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample65.txt
6.09840963 Turkish_East
Distance to: sample66.txt
2.83015901 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample67.txt
5.17723865 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample68.txt
5.32683771 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample69.txt
4.00966333 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample70.txt
4.85926949 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample71.txt
4.16209082 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample72.txt
5.70936073 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample73.txt
5.59002683 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample74.txt
3.88197115 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample75.txt
9.44941268 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample76.txt
2.67121695 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample77.txt
6.35033070 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample78.txt
3.24830725 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample79.txt
7.13454974 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample80.txt
3.87739603 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample81.txt
6.12714452 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample82.txt
6.99629902 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample83.txt
4.13213020 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample84.txt
5.44724701 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample85.txt
5.10766091 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample86.txt
4.61416298 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample87.txt
4.41180235 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample88.txt
4.97569091 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample89.txt
4.05907625 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample90.txt
8.25000606 Turkish_Anatolia
Distance to: sample91.txt
6.45159670 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample92.txt
4.07378203 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample93.txt
4.34903438 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample94.txt
7.33270073 Georgian_Jew
Distance to: sample95.txt
6.77059820 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample96.txt
5.05574920 Armenian_East
Distance to: sample97.txt
5.65299036 Turkish_East
Distance to: sample98.txt
7.10558231 Armenian_West
Distance to: sample99.txt
12.53196712 Azeri_Dagestan
FinalFlash
12-20-2019, 03:32 AM
[QUOTE=Peterski;6406921]Armenia35avg compared to updated K15 spreadsheet:
https://i.imgur.com/PYRMwcS.png
Looks fairly similar to my Armenian_East average. Which region were these 35 kits from?
Peterski
12-20-2019, 04:06 AM
Looks fairly similar to my Armenian_East average. Which region were these 35 kits from?
I'm not sure, there is no regional label. But look, one of them even resembles Moldavians. :) Obviously mixed with Russians.
I think the 100 samples group is much better, and I have regional origins information for each of these 100 samples. Tomorrow I will split them and calculate regional averages.
All of them are from towns in present-day Armenia, but maybe some of these towns are populated by descendants of West Armenians?
PS:
Judging by high similarity to Turkish Trabzon, the sample of 35 Armenians is probably from somewhere close to the Black Sea (or at least a large part of this sample is from there)?
And the Southwest Armenian sample is from areas close to the Mediterranean Sea.
Carpatz
12-20-2019, 04:12 AM
There are no many sources to tell the truth. Classic historians consider in medieval only eastern and southern Balkans had strong Romanophone Vlach presence (especially Epirus and Thessaly - called Great Wallachia), who later migrated north and west, and this was intensified by Ottoman conquest. Theory goes to say how those Vlachs became Slavophone in Serbia and Bosnia, and admixed with local south Slavs, by the time they arrived to Croatia they were already not very different from autochtonous populations.
Whatever Romance speaking populations that inhabited the territories; of modern Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia are either native there, or immigrated from what is now Romania. Aromanians from Greece have nothing to do with your "Vlachs".
FinalFlash
12-20-2019, 04:15 AM
I'm not sure, there is no regional label. But look, one of them even resembles Moldavians. :) Obviously mixed with Russians.
I think the 100 samples group is much better, and I have regional origins information for each of these 100 samples. Tomorrow I will split them and calculate regional averages.
All of them are from towns in present-day Armenia, but maybe some of these towns are populated by descendants of West Armenians?
PS:
Judging by high similarity to Turkish Trabzon, the sample of 35 Armenians is probably from somewhere close to the Black Sea (or at least a large part of this sample is from there)?
And the Southwest Armenian sample is from areas close to the Mediterranean Sea.
Some towns in present-day Armenia does have a Western presence. I don't think that many Armenians are from close to the Black Sea. Armenians from Armenia generally show high similarity to Black Sea Turks and Pontics.
FinalFlash
12-20-2019, 04:19 AM
Probably a mix of East Armenians (native to modern day Armenia) and West Armenian migrants. It's pretty interesting it gets West Armenians as it's top population. East Armenians may have a decent amount of diversity. I didn't expect them to have any notable amount given the size of their country.
Also, this should be the new Armenian average on K15.
Nothing surprising here. Historic Armenia was bigger than what you currently see.
harutsafaryan07
12-20-2019, 04:20 AM
Which country is the Nusayri from? Syria?From Turkey
Отправлено с моего DLI-TL20 через Tapatalk
Mingle
12-20-2019, 04:37 AM
Nothing surprising here. Historic Armenia was bigger than what you currently see.
Yes. But if 50%+ of the samples are of Armenians native to modern Armenia (my assumption), then you'd expect them to get East Armenian as their top population.
So this means either one of two things:
1. Most of the samples (50%+) are of people descended from West Armenian migrants.
2. There are a LOT of East Armenians that score West Armenian as their top population.
Based on the few results I've seen of them, they're not that difficult to distinguish, so that's why I found the Armenians from Armenia getting West Armenian first pretty interesting. Maybe 1/2 of East Armenians are genetically West Armenian-like and the ones that can be distinguished are mainly from the northern part of the country.
FinalFlash
12-20-2019, 04:53 AM
Yes. But if 50%+ of the samples are of Armenians native to modern Armenia (my assumption), then you'd expect them to get East Armenian as their top population.
So this means either one of two things:
1. Most of the samples (50%+) are of people descended from West Armenian migrants.
2. There are a LOT of East Armenians that score West Armenian as their top population.
Based on the few results I've seen of them, they're not that difficult to distinguish, so that's why I found the Armenians from Armenia getting West Armenian first pretty interesting. Maybe 1/2 of East Armenians are genetically West Armenian-like and the ones that can be distinguished are mainly from the northern part of the country.
No, I counted roughly 30 out of 100 that get Armenian-West as their top matches. Even then, they are probably very close to Armenian_East. The rest get either Armenian-East or Greek_Trabzon, Turk Trabzon/East. The latter are quite close to Eastern Armenians genetically.
Some Armenians from Armenia do have Western background but that number is a lot lower than 50%. As a matter of fact, the significant bulk of westerners emmigrated just prior to the collapse of the USSR.
38 of those 100 samples on Peterski's last post here are of Armenians from Lebanon too.
Whatever Romance speaking populations that inhabited the territories; of modern Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia are either native there, or immigrated from what is now Romania. Aromanians from Greece have nothing to do with your "Vlachs".
Not completely true. There was population movement from central and eastern Balkans but it's impact is hard to measure due to lack of proper sources.
Theory I wrote is coming from book about Serbs in Croatia written by local Serb. Vlach question is very complex.
There are different Vlach groups:
1. Istro-Romanians/Čići - by origins from Transylvania or Banat, speak arhaic Romanian and very small in numbers
2. Vlachs in eastern Serbia, also Romanians by origins and Istro-Romanians are possibly connected to them
3. ''Morlachs'' (which is a exonym) or Slavophone large population of dinaric alps, who are most controversial here and their origins are most disputed
4. Aromanians or Vlachs proper who are only present in south of Serbia, but their connection with Morlachs is proposed, but only partially.
Hypotesis goes like this: Morlachs are either native Slavs mixed Latinised Illyrians of western Balkans, or they are Aromanians from east and central Balkans who admixed with Slavs and lost their language trough centuries.
It's interesting how close you are to Morlach cluster average.
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:05 AM
No. Most pure islanders score above 40% Eastern European. NW Croats never moved there, only the opposite. Deal with it.
Bosniaks are either Croats or Serbs, and majority of Bosnian Muslims are ex Catholics.
But among them there are both Serb/Vlach shifted ones and Croat/Slav shifted ones.
Yes, many Croatian nationalists considered certain Bosnian muslims some of purest Croats unmixed with both westerners and easterners.
yes yes cope mutt
Ante, most typical Dalmatian name. :D His AC composition is also typical. Almost all of my Croatian matches are Dalmatians and they usually score 100% Euro with Balkan 60-80% range and East Euro 10-20% range with the rest broadly Euro.Getting Bosnia togheder with Croatia is also the rule, because Dalmatian population is composed of medieval Slavo-Romance population mixed with Ottoman era (and modern to an extent) Catholic migrations from western BiH.
Getting his gedmatch would be cool.
So who's the ambiguous "Bosnian" sample supposed to be? A Slavovlach mutt? I get that as first pop but at a shitty distance, over 6.
yes yes cope mutt
They obviously don't. I didn't see enough samples. Now I have them, and I have thread for islanders where such miniscule E Euro results don't exist so far. Cope WOG.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310565-Pure-Croatian-Islanders-results-from-5-different-islands
This is good clue for you to stop playing expert on Croatian genetics.
General Croat 23andme thread (Insuperable and me menaged to get 71 full Croat samples :D)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310328-Croat-23andme
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:22 AM
They obviously don't. I didn't see enough samples. Now I have them, and I have thread for islanders where such miniscule E Euro results don't exist so far. Cope WOG.
You change your mind as it pleases you, you know nothing about genetics or phenotypes.
you have been spreading your bullshit since 2014 and now you say you just learned what dinarics are and now when you can change the reference of a calculator you suddenly are enlightened.
and now the whole balkan are fucked up in the calculation because of you.
go to sleep i think odon miss his mom whos been shitposting all night
fuck off
You change your mind as it pleases you, you know nothing about genetics or phenotypes.
you have been spreading your bullshit since 2014 and now you say you just learned what dinarics are and now when you can change the reference of a calculator you suddenly are enlightened.
and now the whole balkan are fucked up in the calculation because of you.
go to sleep i think odon miss his mom whos been shitposting all night
fuck off
My thread about a dinarics was a IRONIC JOKE. Please leave me alone. I change my opinion as I learn new things. Also, since 23andme update results aren't the same as before.
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:26 AM
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310565-Pure-Croatian-Islanders-results-from-5-different-islands
This is good clue for you to stop playing expert on Croatian genetics.
im not playing an expert, im using Your own words.
so tell yourself to stop playing an expert on croatian dna or dna in general.
pathetic cunt i never said anything about croatian genetics im quoting what you say urself
im not playing an expert, im using Your own words.
so tell yourself to stop playing an expert on croatian dna or dna in general.
pathetic cunt i never said anything about croatian genetics im quoting what you say urself
Stop harassing me dude. You're annoying. What I said doesn't matter as I wasn't in posession of samples I have now.
Nurzat
12-20-2019, 06:30 AM
So who's the ambiguous "Bosnian" sample supposed to be? A Slavovlach mutt? I get that as first pop but at a shitty distance, over 6.
there's a continuum of apparent genetic similarity between the Black Sea and the Adriatic Sea - a north Balkan belt from Rep. Moldova to Moldova region in Romania to Transylvania to Serbia to Montenegro to Bosnia to Croatia - which actually is only from the fact the people in the region got to this day with a broadly similar mix of East Slav + PaleoBalkan ancestry to which they've got on different paths and in a different timeline. there's a certain regional rather small variation plus "exotic" other stuff depending on the region, like Siberian/TurkoMongol in northeast Romania to Germanic/Celtic central Euro in NW Balkans etc but broadly in this belt a lot of the individuals can get their closest national match another nation than their own, since this belt is mostly one supercluster within which the national clusters overlap a whole lot. the phenotypes are different instead, and there's an obvious Pontic-dominant northeast Balkan cluster different from the Dinaric-dominated northwest Balkan, even though PCA maps will show these together.
so we should accept this belt is a contact zone between East Slavs and ProtoBalkans in which different individuals have a different genetic path, depending sometimes more on family history.
and also accept this apparent closeness may be totally irrelevant for actual ancestry - on K13 (before the updates) I got a personally irrelevant 30% Bosniak as main component and only when I removed Bosniak from source I got around 50% Ukrainian, which is the relevant/true result. the same for Moldovans getting NW Transylvania, Serbia or even Croatia as closest distance or any Balkan Slav as main component.
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:31 AM
Stop harassing me dude. You're annoying. What I said doesn't matter as I wasn't in posession of samples I have now.
im not harassing you i call you out using your own words, your posting history is whats harassing you.
also i will never stop untill you stop insulting every member on this forum in your every post.
nobody can say anything without you insulting them.
you are a nutjob.
im not harassing you i call you out using your own words, your posting history is whats harassing you.
also i will never stop untill you stop insulting every member on this forum in your every post.
nobody can say anything without you insulting them.
you are a nutjob.
Whatever. Point is that there are many full Croats both from south and north who score similar or more Eastern European as I do.
I didn't have this information before. Now I do. And if with more samples we get different patterns again, I will learn something new.
Only an idiot doesn't change their opinion. My observation about Croat AC composition is obviously not entirely correct despite the fact many still score in a way I described. But many don't.
Scores vary greatly and that's it. Fullstop.
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:37 AM
Whatever. Point is that there are many full Croats both from south and north who score similar or more Eastern European as I do.
I didn't have this information before. Now I do. And if with more samples we get different patterns again, I will learn something new.
Only an idiot doesn't change their opinion. My observation about Croat AC composition is obviously not entirely correct despite the fact many still score in a way I described. But many don't.
Scores vary greatly and that's it. Fullstop.
Yes people learn but when you aren't an expert or very sure of what youre saying is correct you should never go ape shit calling people, subhuman, mongrel, peasant etc etc
you wont take this to heart though which is sad.
Yes people learn but when you aren't an expert or very sure of what youre saying is correct you should never go ape shit calling people, subhuman, mongrel, peasant etc etc
you wont take this to heart though which is sad.
Your friends suck. I won't be polite to Četnik troll such as ProudBrit/IncelSlayer, a nasty person and I shouldn't have said I want him back. He remained the same. Troll.
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:43 AM
Your friends suck. I won't be polite to Četnik troll such as ProudBrit/IncelSlayer, a nasty person and I shouldn't have said I want him back. He remained the same. Troll.
lol, you insulting everyone, not just him or trolls
there's a continuum of apparent genetic similarity between the Black Sea and the Adriatic Sea - a north Balkan belt from Rep. Moldova to Moldova region in Romania to Transylvania to Serbia to Montenegro to Bosnia to Croatia - which actually is only from the fact the people in the region got to this day with a broadly similar mix of East Slav + PaleoBalkan ancestry to which they've got on different paths and in a different timeline. there's a certain regional rather small variation plus "exotic" other stuff depending on the region, like Siberian/TurkoMongol in northeast Romania to Germanic/Celtic central Euro in NW Balkans etc but broadly in this belt a lot of the individuals can get their closest national match another nation than their own, since this belt is mostly one supercluster within which the national clusters overlap a whole lot. the phenotypes are different instead, and there's an obvious Pontic-dominant northeast Balkan cluster different from the Dinaric-dominated northwest Balkan, even though PCA maps will show these together.
so we should accept this belt is a contact zone between East Slavs and ProtoBalkans in which different individuals have a different genetic path, depending sometimes more on family history.
https://i.imgur.com/XnHP5ne.png
He is typical Southern Croat, I knew it. That's why he is so angry :jump0000::rofl_002::1127:
Distance to: PoudBrit
4.03972771 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
4.18628714 Croatian
5.00962777 Slovenian
5.52668979 Moldavian
5.89717729 Croat_Split
5.94694354 Serbian_Bosnia
7.13231117 Bosnian
7.20155539 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
7.21208043 Slovak
8.31663995 Csango_Gymes
:thumb001:
He should apply for CRO citizenship asap, we need such pure specimen here!
Mingle
12-20-2019, 06:53 AM
He is typical Southern Croat, I knew it. That's why he is so angry :jump0000::rofl_002::1127:
Distance to: PoudBrit
4.03972771 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
4.18628714 Croatian
5.00962777 Slovenian
5.52668979 Moldavian
5.89717729 Croat_Split
5.94694354 Serbian_Bosnia
7.13231117 Bosnian
7.20155539 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
7.21208043 Slovak
8.31663995 Csango_Gymes
:thumb001:
He should apply for CRO citizenship asap, we need such pure specimen here!
Can you check how close he is to this sample?
Romanian_Botosani,22.52,33.55,15.3,9.67,13.39,2.08 ,1.2,0.4,1.78,0,0 ,0,0
...
He is correct, there is a North Balkan Slavo-Vlach supercluster.
For example troll IncelSlayer and me live on two opposite extremes of Balkan Peninsula, separated by 1000 km on almost exact latitude:
https://i.imgur.com/6lLayqb.png
Both are industrial shithole cities. Pretty interesting xD
Maintenance
12-20-2019, 06:58 AM
He is correct, there is a North Balkan Slavo-Vlach supercluster.
For example troll IncelSlayer and me live on two opposite extremes of Balkan Peninsula, separated by 1000 km on almost exact latitude:
https://i.imgur.com/6lLayqb.png
Both are industrial shithole cities. Pretty interesting xD
siblings
Can you check how close he is to this sample?
Romanian_Botosani,22.52,33.55,15.3,9.67,13.39,2.08 ,1.2,0.4,1.78,0,0 ,0,0
He is still closest to Croats :p
https://i.imgur.com/iRNRvCi.png
He is correct, there is a North Balkan Slavo-Vlach supercluster.
For example troll IncelSlayer and me live on two opposite extremes of Balkan Peninsula, separated by 1000 km on almost exact latitude:
https://i.imgur.com/6lLayqb.png
Both are industrial shithole cities. Pretty interesting xD
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/YearlyGaseousBobolink-size_restricted.gif
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 07:11 AM
Okay. Can you post some quotes on people from the Dinarics speaking Romance (from that time period)? I haven't really heard of such people and info isn't easy to find on them.
well surnames like Šegota and Krmpota definitely aren't Slavic, but they aren't East Balkan Romance(Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian) either. In my opinion Bunjevci are a West Balkan Vlach group, like those early Vlach tribes from Montenegro and Herzegovina.
btw it's gramatically hard to derive the word Bunjevac from river Buna. it's more likely from pre-Slavic stone houses "Bunje" or from the name Bunj which was recorded among medieval Vlachs in Kosovo, so Bunjevci could mean descendants of Bunj.
Mingle
12-20-2019, 07:17 AM
well surnames like Šegota and Krmpota definitely aren't Slavic, but they aren't East Balkan Romance(Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian) either. In my opinion Bunjevci are a West Balkan Vlach group, like those early Vlach tribes from Montenegro and Herzegovina.
btw it's gramatically hard to derive the word Bunjevac from river Buna. it's more likely from pre-Slavic stone houses "Bunje" or from the name Bunj which was recorded among medieval Vlachs in Kosovo, so Bunjevci could mean descendants of Bunj.
Their distant origins may have been Vlach, but around the time they got assimilated under the Croat identity, wouldn't it have been more likely for them to have been Slavic-speaking by then?
The similarity between Bunjevac and Bunja may be a coincidence, but they're believed by scholars to have originated somewhere near that river.
Their distant origins may have been Vlach, but around the time they got assimilated under the Croat identity, wouldn't it have been more likely for them to have been Slavic-speaking by then?
The similarity between Bunjevac and Bunja may be a coincidence, but they're believed by scholars to have originated somewhere near that river.
Surely. They are also bit more Slavic than Vlach genetically, and in ydna mostly Slavic.
My father after I add latest Romanian average:
https://i.imgur.com/4R3UIhF.png
:)
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 07:29 AM
Their distant origins may have been Vlach, but around the time they got assimilated under the Croat identity, wouldn't it have been more likely for them to have been Slavic-speaking by then?
yes, i think when they came, they spoke and spread with them the shtokavian ikavian dialect
The similarity between Bunjevac and Bunja may be a coincidence, but they're believed by scholars to have originated somewhere near that river.
the river is called Buna, not Bunja, and it's very small stream, not an actual river, not many people can originate from there. but they could originate somewhere from the larger Herzegovina and Montnegro area.
Mingle
12-20-2019, 07:30 AM
Surely. They are also bit more Slavic genetically, and in ydna mostly Slavic.Around what period do you think Bunjevci/Morlach "Vlachs" (you say they were Vlachs before) adopted the Croat identity?
Around the late Middle Ages/post-Ottoman invasion of the Balkans?
If so, around that period, there were only Slavic-speakers in the Dinarics. Do you think they had their own distinct Slavic identity separate to both Serbs and Croats before becoming Croats or what?
yes, i think when they came, they spoke and spread with them the shtokavian ikavian dialect
the river is called Buna, not Bunja, and it's very small stream, not an actual river, not many people can originate from there. but they could originate somewhere from the larger Herzegovina and Montnegro area.
They are from western Herzegovina, where ikavians are (not in Montenegro).
Around what period do you think Bunjevci/Morlach "Vlachs" (you say they were Vlachs before) adopted the Croat identity?
Around the late Middle Ages/post-Ottoman invasion of the Balkans?
If so, around that period, there were only Slavic-speakers in the Dinarics. Do you think they had their own distinct Slavic identity separate to both Serbs and Croats before becoming Croats or what?
They could be Vlachs who admixed with Zahumljani, Zahumlje correspond to western Herzegovina. But I am really not sure.
They became part of Croatian nation in 19th century, when modern South Slavic nations were formed. Before that people identified along religious lines, peasants had no sense of ethnic identity (only tribal in some cases), which was introduced to them by educated elites.
Mingle
12-20-2019, 07:35 AM
yes, i think when they came, they spoke and spread with them the shtokavian ikavian dialect
That was more or less the point I was making then. I don't think they can be called Vlachs at the time period they were Croatized if they were Shtokavian-speakers.
Ikavian is only used by Croats today, right?
Mingle
12-20-2019, 07:36 AM
They could be Vlachs who admixed with Zahumljani, Zahumlje correspond to western Herzegovina. But I am really not sure.
They became part of Croatian nation in 19th century, when modern South Slavic nations were formed. Before that people identified along religious lines, peasants had no sense of ethnic identity (only tribal in some cases), which was introduced to them by educated elites.
So you think they're Croatized Zahumljani Slavs and consider the Zahumljani Slavs separate from both Serbs and Croats?
Ikavian is only used by Croats today, right?
You could say that. But Bosnian muslims spoke ikavian in masses until recently. It was dominant dialect among them.
Among Serbs ikavian is present only in areas such as Kupres and small village or two in Dalmatian Hinterland where they were in contact with Croat majority.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 07:38 AM
They are from western Herzegovina, where ikavians are (not in Montenegro).
it doesn't fit genetically. west Herzegovina is a local Slavic maximum. even those results from an isolated mountain village in west Herzegovina are all at least 30% Baltic, while Bunjevci are 27-29
So you think they're Croatized Zahumljani Slavs and consider the Zahumljani Slavs separate from both Serbs and Croats?
DAI says Zahumljani were Serbs, but I don't think it's correct because their Prince mentions origins from tribe Litziki in Poland on Vistula river.
In my opinion Byzantine Emperor concluded they are Serbs because at time DAI was written this Sclavinia was under political control of Serbia.
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 2.1956% / 2.19564487 | ADC: 0.5x
64.4 Croat_Split
23.2 Hungarian
12.4 Slovenian
it doesn't fit genetically. west Herzegovina is a local Slavic maximum. even those results from an isolated mountain village in west Herzegovina are all at least 30% Baltic, while Bunjevci are 27-29
Could it be distant Aromanian/Balkan Vlach influence?
Mingle
12-20-2019, 07:54 AM
DAI says Zahumljani were Serbs, but I don't think it's correct because their Prince mentions origins from tribe Litziki in Poland on Vistula river.
In my opinion Byzantine Emperor concluded they are Serbs because at time DAI was written this Sclavinia was under political control of Serbia.Okay, just wanted to see where you stand on the issue.
In my opinion, historical sources are usually right unless contradicted/shown to be false.
Here are some other
sources that say Serbia extended past the Drina River (backing the DAI here):
https://i.imgur.com/SU1LBrc.png
Bosnia is mentioned as part of Serb even when not controlled by Serbia for example.
No other Slavic tribes were named around this time period. It seems unlikely they were neither Serbs or Croats or else we would've heard of them.
Okay, just wanted to see where you stand on the issue.
In my opinion, historical sources are usually right unless contradicted/shown to be false.
Here are some sources that say Serbia extended past the Drina River (backing the DAI here):
https://i.imgur.com/SU1LBrc.png
What is contradictory here? Serbia like every country changed borders a lot. At one point of history it owned Zahumlje.
Origin of population is different story. Either Zahumljani were not Serbs, or they were Serbs ruled by a foreigner which I don't find likely in such tribal Slavic times.
Territories of both Serbia and Croatia had other Slavic tribes - Braničevci and Timočani in Serbia, Guduscani and Narentines in Croatia for example.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 08:03 AM
DAI says Zahumljani were Serbs, but I don't think it's correct because their Prince mentions origins from tribe Litziki in Poland on Vistula river.
In my opinion Byzantine Emperor concluded they are Serbs because at time DAI was written this Sclavinia was under political control of Serbia.
i think it's the opposite, it was a state ruled by Višević/Litzki tribe as the elite, not by Serbia, and the common people were Serbs
My dad should be 50% Neretljan, because his Island Hvar was part of their Sclavinia called Pagania, which was absorbed by Croatia quite early.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/PaganiaSigloIX_hr.svg/1920px-PaganiaSigloIX_hr.svg.png
His 25% Bosniak side looks to be be partly from Zahumlje, and partly from Turkish Croatia.
i think it's the opposite, it was a state ruled by Višević/Litzki tribe as the elite, not by Serbia, and the common people were Serbs
Nemanjić Serbia controlled Zahumlje and that's why DAI mentions people as Serbs in my opinion. Zahumlje is strongly ikavian today, it would be strange they are Serbs when other Serbs don't speak this dialect.
Paganija is čakavian mostly for example. And DAI mentions them as Serbs too. It doesn't make sense.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 08:14 AM
Nemanjić Serbia controlled Zahumlje and that's why DAI mentions people as Serbs in my opinion. Zahumlje is strongly ikavian today, it would be strange they are Serbs when other Serbs don't speak this dialect.
DAI was written before Nemanjić times, Zahumlje was ruled independently by Višević at the time
Dodecad k12b
Iran_Central_East,27.96,1.89,0.38,0.41,5.35,8.62,8 .65,0.55,12.57,0.81,33.71,0.24
Turkmen_Iran,24.24,7.38,0.60,1.82,4.86,11.74,5.99, 0.06,7.48,7.61,28.14,0.08
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 08:26 AM
Paganija is čakavian mostly for example. And DAI mentions them as Serbs too. It doesn't make sense.
all Zachlumian towns mentioned in DAI, except Mokroskik(Široki Brijeg), are on the east side of Neretva, where ijekavian is spoken. maps don't put much effort into this.
anyway these modern dialects are a later development. in my opinion the Serbs used to have hundreds of small local dialects like the Slovenians do today. and Štokavian was originally a small Vlach dialect from west Montenegro which replaced all others by migrations.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 10:01 AM
Yes there is, available on G25 and cited in recent Roman study. It is North Italian like. Sample you speak about had laughable low number of snps are thus funny results.
No, it there is no illyrian in roman study, i remember well when they added that north_italian like sample to g25 and it was the same old j2b2 bronze age one, renamed under iron_Age, check for yourself, i repeat: there is no illyrian sample as of now in existence.Also, yes that russian plotting one was indeed Iron Age and a female.
I also mention that its irrelevant either way( because you are changing the subject), as modern population cannot be modeled using 2 ancient pure ones, as a matter of fact its enough to check the ydnas/mtdna charts to see how delusional you are.
No, Dušan isn't closest to it and Ford is closer to Croats than to Serbs. It will be removed, I already messaged Lucas.
He had no problem to remove academic Serb samples which contain much more people than your pathetic average.
Fuck off from South Slavic genetics orthodox Mongrel, it's none of your business.
Ofcourse Serbia doesn't come from Croatia, it has nothing to do with it.
My father plot like typical Croat everywhere, and he has nothing to do with Serbs neither he can pass for one.
I just told him about this and he laughed. He told me how is he close to them when they look like Vlachs and nothing like Croats.
I said dad, only to Bosnian Serbs.
He said ofcourse, they are orthodox Croats forced to eastern religion during Ottoman occupation of Catholic Bosnia.
Yet I look like a Dinaric Taliban straight outta Montenigga xD
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 10:17 AM
Whatever. Point is that there are many full Croats both from south and north who score similar or more Eastern European as I do.
Of course there are, but they are mixed(be it recent or going centuries back) like you.All croats with high EE(40-50%+) are due to mixing with northern croats/slovenians to different degrees and can be modeled as such.There's no separate chakavian/shtokavian/kajkavian on 23andme , they are based on population references.
Bosnians + 10% pannonian slav equals 'very slavic dalmatian' cluster.
It is obvious to anyone trained in basic math, the admixture did not puff out of thin air, nor some ancient population survived largely unmixed there, especially when you're surrounded by slovenians, north croats and bosnians.
Grace O'Malley
12-20-2019, 10:51 AM
These were my original breakdowns no ACD but just to show changes.
Target: Grace
Distance: 181.4299% / 1.81429936
49.2 West_Scottish
48.0 Norwegian
2.8 Tabassaran
k15
Target: Grace
Distance: 358.1146% / 3.58114622
73.4 West_Scottish
25.8 West_Norwegian
0.8 Chechen
EU Test
Target: Grace
Distance: 2.3459% / 2.34586437
64.4 Scottish
32.8 South_&_Central_Swedish
2.8 German
With update
K15 has definitely improved and also showing ACD 0.25
Target: Grace
Distance: 2.7843% / 2.78434429 | ADC: 0.25x
64.0 Irish
19.0 Danish
15.2 West_Scottish
1.8 Chechen
Target: Grace
Distance: 2.7629% / 2.76288358
52.8 Irish
25.8 West_Scottish
18.8 Danish
2.2 Chechen
0.2 Estonian
0.2 Karitiana
The K13 in the breakdown hasn't really improved for me.
Target: Grace
Distance: 1.7587% / 1.75867011 | ADC: 0.25x
51.0 Norwegian
47.6 Scottish
1.4 Tabassaran
Target: Grace
Distance: 1.7339% / 1.73387774
50.8 Norwegian
47.2 Scottish
2.0 Tabassaran
EU Test
Target: Grace
Distance: 2.4407% / 2.44073450 | ADC: 0.25x
53.4 Scottish
28.4 South_&_Central_Swedish
16.2 Orcadian
2.0 Georgian
Target: Grace
Distance: 2.3459% / 2.34586437
64.4 Scottish
32.8 South_&_Central_Swedish
2.8 Georgian
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 11:49 AM
You could say that. But Bosnian muslims spoke ikavian in masses until recently. It was dominant dialect among them.
Among Serbs ikavian is present only in areas such as Kupres and small village or two in Dalmatian Hinterland where they were in contact with Croat majority.
According to Pavle Ivić reflexes of yat has clearly distinguished in 14th century which is 700 years after so called Slavic migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavle_Ivić
According to Josip Lisac ikavian was formed in 13th century from jekavian, and jekavian is formed in 10th ventury from old Slavic yat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Lisac
We can't speak about ikavian, ijekavian, jekavian or ekavian in early middle age, for sure. That was created few centuries after so called Slavic migration when yat was brocken.
Except Kupres field, and some parts of Dalmatia Orthodox Serbs have/had ikavian reflex of around Livno, Duvno, in Podvlašić, and Azbukovica and Rađevina in western Serbia http://zsrbija.blogspot.com/2016/01/ikavica.html
That is in the last 100-150 years, we don't know what was before. In 19th century Ivan Antunović mentioned Orthodox ikavians in Mrkopalj in Gorski Kotar. They are not recorded in recent time, and that means or they converted on Catholicism or lost ikavian speech.
Moje ime
12-20-2019, 02:13 PM
https://i.imgur.com/Gj7s2YE.png
What is South Croat Morlach Cluster consists of and is any other Serb has that as close distance?
harutsafaryan07
12-20-2019, 03:00 PM
For K13 Kurds Iran and Iraq
Kurd_Iran,4,2.22,7.31,39.88,31.03,4.36,9.29,0,0.99 ,0.19,0,0.03,0.54
Kurd_Sorani,2.98,4.22,6.58,38,30.5,6.66,8.45,0.41, 0.76,0.66,0.24,0.72,0.27
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 03:24 PM
What is South Croat Morlach Cluster consists of and is any other Serb has that as close distance?
Feiichy posted a list of samples she used a few pages ago, and yes, it's close to Serbs in general
CommonSense
12-20-2019, 03:27 PM
What is South Croat Morlach Cluster consists of and is any other Serb has that as close distance?
I get it as the #1 referrence now. It's pretty similar to the new Serbian average based on forum.poreklo members.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 03:30 PM
The term was initially used for a Vlach pastoralist community in the mountains of Croatia in the second half of the 14th until the early 16th century. Later, when the community straddled the Venetian–Ottoman border in the 17th century, it referred to Slavic-speaking, mainly Eastern Orthodox, and to a lesser degree Roman Catholic people.
The etymology of the exonym points to a connection with Vlachs, but as stated in Fortis' work Travels in Dalmatia, they were at that time Slavic-speaking. Because of migrations from various parts of the Balkans, the name had passed to later communities.
wasn't Morlachs used for all inhabitants of the Dalmatian hinterland, no matter their social class? and Bunjevci were a specific Vlach group within Morlachs. Morlacco means fighting bull in Spanish btw, and it's also used as an insult.
No, it there is no illyrian in roman study, i remember well when they added that north_italian like sample to g25 and it was the same old j2b2 bronze age one, renamed under iron_Age, check for yourself, i repeat: there is no illyrian sample as of now in existence.Also, yes that russian plotting one was indeed Iron Age and a female.
I also mention that its irrelevant either way( because you are changing the subject), as modern population cannot be modeled using 2 ancient pure ones, as a matter of fact its enough to check the ydnas/mtdna charts to see how delusional you are.
No, it isn't a same samole as J2b2 is more north shifted (it is Croatia MBA). Nice try though.
DAI was written before Nemanjić times, Zahumlje was ruled independently by Višević at the time
I wonder why Serbs left nothing there. Croats left in Croatia, Branimir's stone and Bascanska Table both contain name Croat, in Zahumlje there is nothing of the sort which includes name Serb.
Of course there are, but they are mixed(be it recent or going centuries back) like you.All croats with high EE(40-50%+) are due to mixing with northern croats/slovenians to different degrees and can be modeled as such.There's no separate chakavian/shtokavian/kajkavian on 23andme , they are based on population references.
Bosnians + 10% pannonian slav equals 'very slavic dalmatian' cluster.
It is obvious to anyone trained in basic math, the admixture did not puff out of thin air, nor some ancient population survived largely unmixed there, especially when you're surrounded by slovenians, north croats and bosnians.
Absolutely not. North Croats never came to islands and it is fantasy in line with Sub Saharan/Nordic Ruled Egypt. Cakavian Croats both in Dalmatia and North Adriatic are very Eastern European shifted and it is known they are less Vlach derived than Stokavian Croats. Their dialect is also very arhaic and close to East Slavic speeches.
There was lot of Croats who fled to Slovenia though. Just like Serbs came here, Croatian population moved to Slovenia, Hungary, Austria and Slovakia hence surname Horvat.
Find better ways to cope why my people are nothing like Serbs. But you are like us because Moldovans are half Ruthenian, and Ruthenians are direct descendants of White Croats.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 03:49 PM
---
You losing popilation very fast https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310617-Depopulation-of-Croatia
Uskoro pod jednu šljivu!
wasn't Morlachs used for all inhabitants of the Dalmatian hinterland, no matter their social class? and Bunjevci were a specific Vlach group within Morlachs. Morlacco means fighting bull in Spanish btw, and it's also used as an insult.
Yes they are what we call Vlaji. Vlaji are mostly Croats, Serbs usually arent called Vlaji but just pravoslavci.
You losing popilation very fast https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310617-Depopulation-of-Croatia
Uskoro pod jednu šljivu!
Serbia doesn't fare better. Every country in the region is demographically ruined except muslims and Gypsies.
Only exception now is Hungary where Hungarians started having more children (government gives lot of benefits) and many returned home with good economic situation. But there Gypsy population grows much faster too.
Dušan
12-20-2019, 03:57 PM
Mine TOP 40:
https://i.imgur.com/jLlOEyJ.jpg
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 04:00 PM
No, it isn't a same samole as J2b2 is more north shifted (it is Croatia MBA). Nice try though.
There is no illyrian Iron age sample because the one that plotted with russians was the only one and it go removed from gedmatch(iron age bulgaria plotted with ukraineans too).
The g25 'iron age illyrian' was in fact bronze age renamed.
Nothing new except its name.
In previous versions it was called Balkans_BA:I3313.
Hilarious how the quote was even addressed to you yet you 'forgot' about this.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 04:01 PM
Absolutely not. North Croats never came to islands and it is fantasy in line with Sub Saharan/Nordic Ruled Egypt. Cakavian Croats both in Dalmatia and North Adriatic are very Eastern European shifted and it is known they are less Vlach derived than Stokavian Croats. Their dialect is also very arhaic and close to East Slavic speeches.
There was lot of Croats who fled to Slovenia though. Just like Serbs came here, Croatian population moved to Slovenia, Hungary, Austria and Slovakia hence surname Horvat.
Find better ways to cope why my people are nothing like Serbs. But you are like us because Moldovans are half Ruthenian, and Ruthenians are direct descendants of White Croats.
The irony when a south croat that is both on genetics and on paper mixed with a lot of non-south croats and other western immigrants is telling me south-croats aren't mixed with non-south croats and other western immigrants
The irony when a south croat that is both on genetics and on paper mixed with a lot of non-south croats and other western immigrants is telling me south-croats aren't mixed with non-south croats and other western immigrants
I am just half. People I posted are pure. Especially on our islands, isolated villages that never saw any foreigners except few Venetians and dinaric Croats.
Mine TOP 40:
Hehehehe, kompleksi čine čuda.
Dušan
12-20-2019, 04:19 PM
Hehehehe, kompleksi čine čuda.
O čemu ti?
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 04:19 PM
I am just half. People I posted are pure. Especially on our islands, isolated villages that never saw any foreigners except few Venetians and dinaric Croats.
You've said that you're like a pure southern croat genetically, so how did you end up like them if you're only half?The only logical explanation is that they are as "pure" as you.Not one of the croats you've posted can trace even 0.1% of their ancestors from 16th century, this is why only genetics matter and with the help of dna tests the southern croats origin was uncovered, bosnian(serbian) root with pannonian slavs(slovenian/kajkavian like) + occasional western immigrant.
You've said that you're like a pure southern croat genetically, so how did you end up like them if you're only half?The only logical explanation is that they are as "pure" as you.Not one of the croats you've posted can trace even 0.1% of their ancestors from 16th century, this is why only genetics matter and with the help of dna tests the southern croats origin was uncovered, bosnian(serbian) root with pannonian slavs(slovenian/kajkavian like) + occasional western immigrant.
No.
I don't plot with Southern Croat Slavic average (unlike you). I am much closer to NW Croats, Hungarians and Slovenians.
O čemu ti?
Blizu si Hrvatima. Mom starom su blizu Bosanski Srbi ali zapravo više mi niti ne smeta. Nisu broj 1. Neću se više ljutiti zbog takvih gluposti.
I am too little Baltic, bit more North Atlantic, too much West Asian and too little East Med for southern Croats. I also score no Red Sea at all, and their average has suprisingly high score (something like 2.5)
Dušan
12-20-2019, 04:31 PM
Blizu si Hrvatima. Mom starom su blizu Bosanski Srbi ali zapravo više mi niti ne smeta. Nisu broj 1. Neću se više ljutiti zbog takvih gluposti.
No, I am not close to you. Bosnian Serb is academic average for western Serbs, it has nothing with Croats.
My distance from Croatian average is 7.7, greater than to Serbian proper average 5.9.
To kaykavian (NW) Croats is distance is big 13! As same as Bulgarians.
And don't forget that those NW Croats are cca 30% of your overall population. Or even more.
No, I am not close to you. Bosnian Serb is academic average for western Serbs, it has nothing with Croats.
My distance from Croatian average is 7.7, greater than to Serbian proper average 5.9.
To kaykavian (NW) Croats is distance is big 13! As same as Bulgarians.
And don't forget that those NW Croats are cca 30% of your overall population. Or even more.
Yes, you are. Academic average of Split Croats is closest to Bosnian Serbs, but you removed it as well as other South Croat averages I made because you don't like your results.
Distance to: Serbian_Bosnia
1.15990840 Croat_Split
2.31010898 Bosnian
2.97378336 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
3.02765379 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
3.04522464 Serbian_new
4.23139900 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
4.27129225 Szekely
4.73693862 Moldavian
4.76462354 Romanian_Botosani
5.02121873 Csango_Gymes
:1127:
1.1. distance is incredibly close. No wonder my dad gets Bosnian Serbs on number 2, and Split Croats on number 1. This average is indeed very Croat like.
Distance to: Romanian_Botosani
3.37293977 Bosnian
3.52211584 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
3.77128625 Moldavian
4.76462354 Serbian_Bosnia
5.14660082 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
5.17180114 Serbian_new
5.22348543 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
5.36042909 Croat_Split
6.61431780 Szekely
7.15705945 Croatian
Dušan
12-20-2019, 04:46 PM
1.1. distance is incredibly close. No wonder my dad gets Bosnian Serbs on number 2, and Split Croats on number 1. This average is indeed very Croat like.
You just said that you, Ph2ter, Hrvoje and all other NW Croats are fake Croats, and those close to Serbs are real ones.:)
There are much more western Serbs than those Split Croats in number of population. It is Serb cluster, not Croatian.
You just said that you, Ph2ter, Hrvoje and all other NW Croats are fake Croats, and those close to Serbs are real ones.:)
There are much more western Serbs than those Split Croats in number of population. It is Serb cluster, not Croatian.
I am 3/4 Croat by origin, Hrvoje bit less than half. Ph2ter is full Croat as far as I know but his people are different from southern Croats.
I think your should add more people to Bosnian Serb cluster, it has only 4 from Doboj and Banja Luka. If you added Serbs from Herzegovina, East Bosnia etc, I think it will be closest to new Serb average.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 04:49 PM
No.
I don't plot with Southern Croat Slavic average (unlike you). I am much closer to NW Croats, Hungarians and Slovenians.
I am too little Baltic, bit more North Atlantic, too much West Asian and too little East Med for southern Croats. I also score no Red Sea at all, and their average has suprisingly high score (something like 2.5)
Nop, you've said this at least a few times in the past days alone, let me repost some contradictions of yours(just regarding dalmatian croats), some of which were posted right in this very thread.
According to 23andme I am definition of pure southern Croat, having ancestry only from 3 southernmost Croatian counties.
I don't see anything false in what I wrote. I really did get only 3 Dalmatian counties in Croatia and I score like Russian/Ukrainian + Spanish/N.Italian on Global 25, exactly like a Slavic-Dalmatian mix and nothing else.
I am Dalmatian Croat and in Dalmatia lived Illyrians.
Genetically speaking, it does not matter, average Croat is not more med than I am (I have many GEDmatch kits and Know that).
Most of my ancestry is Dalmatian, and there is misconception on this forum they are ''med people by blood'' which is simply untrue (culture is another thing).
I can post pure Dalmatians with similar or even less med scores than what I have.
Most of my ancestry is Dalmatian and I identify with it.
For the Nth time, the difference between you and them is that you also have slight recent german admixture, which lowers your baltic and increases North_sea and lowers your EE but increases your NW euro on 23andme, past this you're both the same thing:medieval bosnians(serbs) and pannonian slavs mixed in different ratios whether recent or during the medieval.
End of deal.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 04:52 PM
Distance to: Serbian_Bosnia
1.15990840 Croat_Split
2.31010898 Bosnian
2.97378336 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
3.02765379 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
3.04522464 Serbian_new
4.23139900 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
4.27129225 Szekely
4.73693862 Moldavian
4.76462354 Romanian_Botosani
5.02121873 Csango_Gymes
:1127:
probably because Split kept more pre-Slavic blood than some other parts of Croatia, and Bosnian Serbs are a little bit more Slavic than other Serbs, so they overlap
Nop, you've said this at least a few times in the past days alone, let me repost some contradictions of yours(just regarding dalmatian croats), some of which were posted right in this very thread.
For the Nth time, the difference between you and them is that you also have slight recent german admixture, which lowers your baltic and increases North_sea and lowers your EE but increases your NW euro on 23andme, past this you're both the same thing:medieval bosnians(serbs) and pannonian slavs mixed in different ratios whether recent or during the medieval.
End of deal.
Some of the things you posted are said many moths ago, troll. Now I score other Croatian counties too, not only Dalmatia.
I don't have German above statistical noise, I seem to have more of this BA/IA age like Croatian ancestry as do my parents.
I am less Slavic than average but my Vlach part seems to be significantly less wog than theirs. Maybe this natives genetics is especially well preserved on islands. They are not like eastern Vlachs.
I will know more when I get my hands on pure islanders gedmatch results.
probably because Split kept more pre-Slavic blood than some other parts of Croatia, and Bosnian Serbs are a little bit more Slavic than other Serbs, so they overlap
In general mainland Dalmatian and Bosnian population is very similar. Dalmatia is coast of Bosnia from geographical point of view.
Dušan
12-20-2019, 04:59 PM
I am 3/4 Croat by origin, Hrvoje bit less than half. Ph2ter is full Croat as far as I know but his people are different from southern Croats.
I think your should add more people to Bosnian Serb cluster, it has only 4 from Doboj and Banja Luka. If you added Serbs from Herzegovina, East Bosnia etc, I think it will be closest to new Serb average.
And ph2ter's people are 30-40% of overall Croats. Those are very distant from southern Croats.
You should decide who are real Croats and who are fake ones - those Serbian-shifted or those Hungarian-Austrian-Czech-shifted. :popcorn:
I didn't create Bosnian Serb average and put it into calculator. It could be merged to Serbian average and those 4 results added to Serbian average.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 05:00 PM
Some of the things you posted are said many moths ago, troll. Now I score other Croatian counties too, not only Dalmatia.
I don't have German above statistical noise, I seem to have more of this BA/IA age like Croatian ancestry as do my parents.
I am less Slavic than average but my Vlach part seems to be significantly less wog than theirs. Maybe this natives genetics is especially well preserved on islands. They are not like eastern Vlachs.
I will know more when I get my hands on pure islanders gedmatch results.
You've said just few days ago how you plot like a pure southern croat and nothing else, what else is there to say?
You're, according to yourself, 4% NW and 2% french&german on 23andme and used to score german regions, on top of KNOWING you have recent german ancestry on paper(hell, i remember, but i might be wrong, saying you even visited these 'imaginary' german cousins :lol:) there is nothing 'statistically noise' at this and Bronze Age and Iron Age were both different between each other, you're making all this on the spot to fit your current narrative and you're getting boring.
When you find new results you will come up with a different theory to cope and nonchalantly say again "Only an idiot doesn't change their opinion"
And ph2ter's people are 30-40% of overall Croats. Those are very distant from southern Croats.
You should decide who are real Croats and who are fake ones - those Serbian-shifted or those Hungarian-Austrian-Czech-shifted. :popcorn:
I didn't create Bosnian Serb average and put it into calculator. It could be merged to Serbian average and those 4 results added to Serbian average.
Serbs from Montenegro, SE Serbia and Kosovo would be pretty distant from you and Bosnian Serbs. So?
Our people don't descend from one tribe. These differences are still marginal compared to country like France, Italy or Germany, obviously.
You've said just few days ago how you plot like a pure southern croat and nothing else, what else is there to say?
You're, according to yourself, 4% NW and 2% french&german on 23andme and used to score german regions, on top of KNOWING you have recent german ancestry on paper(hell, i remember, but i might be wrong, saying you even visited these 'imaginary' german cousins :lol:) there is nothing 'statistically noise' at this and Bronze Age and Iron Age were both different between each other, you're making all this on the spot to fit your current narrative and you're getting boring.
When you find new results you will come up with a different theory to cope and nonchalantly say again "Only an idiot doesn't change their opinion"
No, I don't score any Germanic on Global 25. I would like to but I don't. On 23andme me my NW Euro isn't much different from what some full Croats get, it's nothing.
Deal with it.
And rather worry about your very atypical results.
Dušan
12-20-2019, 05:09 PM
Could you imagine - some few Split Croats are autosomal simmilar to 2 million Bosnian and Krajina Serbs, and she described that cluster as real Croatian. :picard1:
Then you are fake Croat mongrel. As well as all Croat members here.
My sister's husband's EUtest
Distance to: Vsh
4.58590231 Ukrainian-Russian
5.32051689 West_Russian
5.78562875 East_Russian
7.57701128 Ukrainian
7.58528180 Belorussian
7.58542682 North_Russian
7.72924964 UA_Sumy
8.38699589 Polish
8.57888105 Northwest_Russian
9.62558570 East_Finnish
9.64026971 Erzya
10.18056482 Estonian
11.76136897 South_Finnish
12.31490966 Slovakian_1
12.73875583 Lithuanian
13.96750157 Kaikavian_Croatian
14.25237042 Czech
14.40958448 Latvian_1
15.05983695 Croatian
15.68110009 Slovenian_1
17.26133541 Komi
17.79469584 Udmurt
17.79657270 Moldavian_1
17.91515560 Hungarian
18.62697976 SerbianBosnia
Target: Vsh
Distance: 2.0739% / 2.07387334
37.4 Ukrainian-Russian
29.4 North_Russian
13.2 UA_Sumy
11.6 East_Russian
4.0 East_Finnish
2.8 Norwegian
1.6 Sardinian
Basically it goes like this:
37.4+13.2=50.6% "Slavic"
29.4+11.6+4.0=45% "Finno-Ugric"
MDLP K23b
Distance to: Vsh
3.98638934 Russian_North
4.16736128 Russian_Meshtchyora
4.68810196 Russian-Upper-Volga
4.87500769 Russian-West
5.40447037 Ukrainian_West
5.55758041 Belarusian-East
5.64786685 Kashub
5.77306678 Russian_South
5.79027633 Sorb
5.82229336 Russian-North-West
5.94531749 Ukrainian_Center
6.06235103 Erzya
6.22649982 Belarusian_West
6.39606129 Ukrainian_East
6.63945781 Slovak
7.42143517 Moksha
7.44081313 Don_cossack
7.55669240 German
7.70937741 Ukrainian
7.90012025 Mordovian
8.00692201 Finn_West
8.18793014 Russian-North
8.90529618 Russian_Vologda
9.01326800 Finnish_FIN
9.02883160 Finnish-East
Target: Vsh
Distance: 0.7601% / 0.76007321
34.8 Sorb
22.4 Latvian
11.0 Serb_Serbia
7.6 Ukrainian_East
7.2 Kashub
4.8 Belarusian_Russian
2.4 Croat_BH
2.4 Nenets_Forest
2.0 Frisian
1.6 Khant
1.2 Karitiana
1.0 Saami_Kola
0.8 Nganasan
0.4 Sardinian
0.2 Georgian_Laz
0.2 Georgian_Tbilisi
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 05:10 PM
Serbs from Montenegro, SE Serbia and Kosovo would be pretty distant from you and Bosnian Serbs. So?
Precisely because neighbors mix over time, same as how southern croats are a mix of medieval bosnian(serbs) largely and pannonian slavs population(slovenians/kajkavian croats etc..) under different ratios.
Could you imagine - some few Split Croats are autosomal simmilar to 2 million Bosnian and Krajina Serbs, and she described that cluster as real Croatian. :picard1:
Than you are fake Croat mongrel. As well as all Croat members here.
Coontrol your anger. You most likely have Croatian blood since many Croatian serfs moved to Krajina communities to escape feudal system.
Core of old Croatia was near Split, and we should search for their descendants there.
Just like we should search purest Serbs among Christians in SW Serbia and Sandžak.
Precisely because neighbors mix over time, same as how southern croats are a mix of medieval bosnian(serbs) largely and pannonian slavs population(slovenians/kajkavian croats etc..) under different ratios.
No, Panonnian Croats never came there LMAO, people always migrated to Panonnia and not the opposite.
Panonnian Croats have south Croat blood and not the opposite.
Southern Croats are mix of original medieval Croats, BiH Croats and indeed some Serbs. As you said, people mix over time.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 05:19 PM
In general mainland Dalmatian and Bosnian population is very similar. Dalmatia is coast of Bosnia from geographical point of view.
there's no much connection between Pannonian Bosnia, where these samples are from, and Dalmatia.
the samples from Split are much more southern than the ones from Zagreb, and i'm sure they have a lot of ancestry from the local Dalmatian speaking Vlachs which makes them similar to Serbs.
those 4 Bosnian Serbs are only slightly more Slavic than the average Serb, 31% Baltic, while the surrounding Bosniaks and Croats are all like 35, 36, lol
k13 is a very useful tool, but in the end only deep subclades of haplogroups can tell the truth, i'll probably focus on that more in the future.
Dušan
12-20-2019, 05:20 PM
Coontrol your anger. You most likely have Croatian blood since many Croatian serfs moved to Krajina communities to escape feudal system.
Core of old Croatia was near Split, and we should search for their descendants there.
Just like we should search purest Serbs among Christians in SW Serbia and Sandžak.
Fortunately, I dont have. :) I don't look like your people, as well as no one in my family.
I am eastern-shifted, my Paleo-Balkan ancestors were Thracians from Kosovo and other parts of central Balkan.
And what is more interesting, K36 tool put my ancestry more eastern than Serbia - to Bulgaria.
https://i.imgur.com/aUEgRcS.png
https://i.imgur.com/8P9BS5y.jpg
So more likely, that few Split Croats have deep Balkan origin. :coffee:
there's no much connection between Pannonian Bosnia, where these samples are from, and Dalmatia.
the samples from Split are much more southern than the ones from Zagreb, and i'm sure they have a lot of ancestry from the local Dalmatian speaking Vlachs which makes them similar to Serbs.
those 4 Bosnian Serbs are only slightly more Slavic than the average Serb, 31% Baltic, while the surrounding Bosniaks and Croats are all like 35, 36, lol
k13 is a very useful tool, but in the end only deep subclades of haplogroups can tell the truth, i'll probably focus on that more in the future.
No, Bosnian Serbs aren't native to Panonnia lol. And my father is not similar to average Serbs. As I said Baltic score is meaningless unless all others should are compared as well.
Fortunately, I dont have. :) I don't look like your people, as well as no one in my family.
I am eastern-shifted, my Paleo-Balkan ancestors were Thracians from Kosovo and other parts of central Balkan.
And what is more interesting, K36 tool put my ancestry more eastern than Serbia - to Bulgaria.
https://i.imgur.com/aUEgRcS.png
https://i.imgur.com/8P9BS5y.jpg
So more likely, that few Split Croats have deep Balkan origin. :coffee:
Maybe you don't but many do. Pribislav looks Croatian, but you don't.
My father looks nothing like a Serb for example.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 05:23 PM
No, I don't score any Germanic on Global 25. I would like to but I don't. On 23andme me my NW Euro isn't much different from what some full Croats get, it's nothing.
Deal with it.
And rather worry about your very atypical results.
1.It don't care about some cherrypicked calculator that fits your current narrative, some full croats in the north get your NW level because of slovenian and austro-hungarian mixture, yours is mostly from recent german ancestry, its not nothing when you have german ancestry on paper and 23andme clearly shows its recent.
Just a single quote, couldn't be bothered to find more.
Very small amount of her German is from Alsace, just one line (it's not Swabian). Rest is Swabian and they Danube Swabians were of diverse origins. Uncle say that Swabian was from Austria, but I did not see proof.
And if global 25 is g25 there you're modelled as 30% austrian.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 05:25 PM
Coontrol your anger. You most likely have Croatian blood since many Croatian serfs moved to Krajina communities to escape feudal system.
Core of old Croatia was near Split, and we should search for their descendants there.
Just like we should search purest Serbs among Christians in SW Serbia and Sandžak.
Croatian trail among Krajina Serbs including Bosanska Krajina could be only "chakavian" R1a-Z280>Y2613 (4% among Lika Serbs according to last statistic).
It's nothing in comparation with tons of croatized Serbs (mostly I2-PH908, but also some other markers).
1.It don't care about some cherrypicked calculator that fits your current narrative, some full croats in the north get your NW level because of slovenian and austro-hungarian mixture, yours is mostly from recent german ancestry, its not nothing when you have german ancestry on paper and 23andme clearly shows its recent.
Just a single quote, couldn't be bothered to find more.
And if global 25 is g25 there you're modelled as 30% austrian.
I don't have neither Germany nor Austria as match on 23andme neither many German DNA relatives. Very few only.
And this 30% Austrian we get on vahaduo using K13, big deal. I gat South Polish, Caucasus and French Basque and I have no ancestry from there.
It's menaingless model. Austrians are pretty similar to Hungarians and Slovenians.
Croatian trail among Krajina Serbs including Bosanska Krajina could be only "chakavian" R1a-Z280>Y2613 (4% among Lika Serbs according to last statistic).
It's nothing in comparation with tons of croatized Serbs (mostly I2-PH908, but also some other markers).
I2-din is definitely not a White Serb marker, PH908 doesn't exist among Sorbs. Sorry.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 05:29 PM
I2-din is definitely not a White Serb marker, PH908 doesn't exist among Sorbs. Sorry.
Of couse, it's Serbian.
Proto-Croatian marker is R1a-Z280>Y2613. More precisely it's marker of Slavs who adopted Croatian Turkic name in the early middle age.
My father on K13
Target: Father
Distance: 1.2539% / 1.25392620
25.8 South_Polish
19.0 Albanian
18.4 Romanian_Muntenia
13.6 Ukrainian
10.0 Norwegian
6.6 Romanian_Transylvania
3.2 Latvian
1.8 German_West
0.8 Dai
0.4 Karitiana
0.4 Ukrainian_Belgorod
Ofcourse he isn't 10% Norwegian, 19% Albanian etc, ll. It's just a model.
Of couse, it's Serbian.
Proto-Croatian marker is R1a-Z280>Y2613. More precisely it's marker of Slavs who adopted Croatian Turkic name in the early middle age.
No, it's most likely Sclavenaian and lot of basal PH908 branches are in Bulgaria. Highest diversity in Ukraine. It came from east, around Carpathians and lower Danube region.
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 05:34 PM
I don't have neither Germany nor Austria as match on 23andme neither many German DNA relatives. Very few only.
And this 30% Austrian we get on vahaduo using K13, big deal. I gat South Polish, Caucasus and French Basque and I have no ancestry from there.
It's menaingless model. Austrians are pretty similar to Hungarians and Slovenians.
Now G25 is meaningless but few moments ago you used it as an(the only) argument.:picard1::picard1:
You're plain ignoring your own past quotes just because they don't fit this current narrative, not bothering anymore on this subject.
Before 23andme update I had Thuringia as region in Germany.
My grandma was mixed but mostly German (0 Croat). I get very very little NW Euro autosomally, but this haplogroup is clear link to the region.
Yes, I get Thuringia :p
My German match (their surname is most common in Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt)
Admix Results (sorted):
Pribislav, R1a-Z280>Y2613 is subclade of CTS3402. So in that you are correct, I guess 23andme doesn't test any deeper.
vbnetkhio
12-20-2019, 05:36 PM
No, Bosnian Serbs aren't native to Panonnia lol.
i know, but you claimed the opposite.
you implied that Split and North Bosnia form some kind of historical-geographical cluster together and those Serbs are similar to Split Croats because they are Serbianized local Croats.
Now G25 is meaningless but few moments ago you used it as an(the only) argument.:picard1::picard1:
You're plain ignoring your own past quotes just because they don't fit this current narrative, not bothering anymore on this subject.
That is not G25. You are quoting results on K13 on vahaduo. I never get Austrian on G25.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 05:36 PM
No, it's most likely Sclavenaian and lot of basal PH908 branches are in Bulgaria. Highest diversity in Ukraine. It came from east, around Carpathians and lower Danubian region.
And among Croats most common R1a is CTS3402 accoring to 23andme samples I collected so far.
In pure chakavian areas such as Kvarner the strongest marker is R1a-Z280>Y2613 or so call Carpatian-Dalmatian branch.
BiH Croatians, Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland, Šokci and Bunjevci are lack of this marker.
In pure chakavian areas such as Kvarner the strongest marker is R1a-Z280>Y2613 or so call Carpatian-Dalmatian branch.
BiH Croatians, Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland, Šokci and Bunjevci are lack of this marker.
This marker is most common R1a I collected so far, and yes it's pretty common in the south.
R1a among Croats is way more than old research say, according to my stats it's 30% and our samples are like 80% southerners.
That's difference to Serbs.
i know, but you claimed the opposite.
you implied that Split and North Bosnia form some kind of historical-geographical cluster together and those Serbs are similar to Split Croats because they are Serbianized local Croats.
I didn't imply that although some Bosnian Serbs are, ask Devil Advocate (those in Potkozarje etc).,But most aren't.
My point is that southern Croat and Bosnian population is pretty similar regardless of ethnicity. Because both are mix of Slavs and Vlachs.
ixulescu
12-20-2019, 05:40 PM
Hungarian mongrel, don't stick to irrelevant modeling on K13, it isn't science nor serious.
Mix a Croat with Romanians and you get a Serb, hahaha.
Mix a Bulgar with Gypsy and Serb, you get a Romanian.
Don't you ever get tired of spouting bullshit? deliberately assimilating Vlachs to gypsies?
You yourself have Vlach ancestry and your husband too. And every single South Slav. Deal with it.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 05:41 PM
This marker is most common R1a I collected so far, and yes it's pretty common in the south.
R1a among Croats is way more than old research say, according to my stats it's 30% and our samples are like 80% southerners.
That's difference to Serbs.
Carpatian-Dalmatian R1a in Dalmatia can be found only among islanders and some coastal Croatians, but it's not strongest marker among them. One Serb from Benkovac and one from border between Dalmatia and Lika carry this marker.
Don't you ever get tired of spouting bullshit? deliberately assimilating Vlachs to gypsies?
You yourself have Vlach ancestry and your husband too. And every single South Slav. Deal with it.
Lol, as if we don't know. I will answer to your retarded countryman in same way he trolls us.
Carpatian-Dalmatian R1a in Dalmatia can be found only among islanders and some coastal Croatians, but it's not strongest marker among them. One Serb from Benkovac and one from border between Dalmatia and Lika carry this marker.
Not really true. It exist among dinaric Croats as well. I2 is ofcourse most common. And funny is how E is practically absent. With more samples there will be some ofc, but it's low so far.
Out of 45 samples only one is E-V13. and I1 is third most common, at 16% so far.
Previous research claimed I1 is very low in Croats, seems not.
ixulescu
12-20-2019, 05:44 PM
Lol, as if we don't know. I will answer to your retarded countryman in same way he trolls us.
you can deal with a retard without involving everybody else
ProudBrit
12-20-2019, 05:44 PM
That is not G25. You are quoting results on K13 on vahaduo. I never get Austrian on G25.
Sure, my bad, heres a g25, but its irrelevant to my point, you're german admixed on paper trail and on 23andme and now you're ignoring this because it doesn't fit your current narrative.
Distance to: Feiichy_scaled
0.02978107 Italian_Northeast_o
0.03223627 Bosnian
0.03265834 Croatian
0.03346968 Slovenian
0.03490519 Austrian
0.03558584 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_o
0.03590075 Slovakian
WTF ??
^^^
Italian_Northeast_o and Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_o are ethnic Slovenes from Italy.
Sure, my bad, heres a g25, but its irrelevant to my point, you're german admixed on paper trail and on 23andme and now you're ignoring this because it doesn't fit your current narrative.
Okay, but it's little. I don't understand why. Because I am German looking.
Pribislav
12-20-2019, 05:46 PM
Not really true. It exist among dinaric Croats as well. I2 is ofcourse most common. And funny is how E is practically absent. With more samples there will be some ofc, but it's low so far.
Out of 45 samples only one is E-V13. and I2 is third most common, at 16% so far.
References for Dinaric Croatians?
Vast majority of Serbs with that marker are from regions west of Vrbas river. Still it's minority of total R1a Krajina Serbs.
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