Applying your own standards, that sample has nothing to do with Poles, since it's genetically Baltic. Falling in your own traps, wonderful xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
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Applying your own standards, that sample has nothing to do with Poles, since it's genetically Baltic. Falling in your own traps, wonderful xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Which sample is genetically Baltic ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Masurians plot exactly like Masovians (Northeast Poles). Nothing Baltic about them.
East Prussia Memelland. It clusters near Lithuanians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Because they are ethnic Lithuanians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_LithuaniansQuote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Some Lithuanians and Balts were Germanized, just like tons of them were Polonised. Better be quiet about Lithuania. Even Lithuanian nobility was Polonised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Up to 200,000 Lithuanians lived in East Prussia in 1824 (that was ca. 19% of East Prussia's population).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Poles in Lithuania are not just Polonized Lithuanians. They differ genetically, have real Slavic admixture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Look at these samples: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...outh-Lithuania
(BTW since I uploaded them to GEDmatch I keep getting mails from their matches, who are mostly Slavs)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolonizationQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
In 1920, after the staged mutiny of Lucjan Żeligowski, Lithuanian cultural activities in Polish controlled territories were limited and the closure of Lithuanian newspapers and the arrest of their editors occurred. 33 Lithuanian and Belarusian cultural activists were formally expelled from Vilnius on 23 January 1922 and deported to Lithuania. In 1927, as tensions between Lithuania and Poland increased, 48 additional Lithuanian schools were closed and another 11 Lithuanian activists were deported. Following Piłsudski's death in 1935, the Lithuanian minority in Poland again became an object of Polonization policies with greater intensity. 266 Lithuanian schools were closed after 1936 and almost all Lithuanian organizations were banned. Further Polonization ensued as the government encouraged settlement of Polish army veterans in the disputed regions. About 400 Lithuanian reading rooms and libraries were closed in Poland between 1936 and 1938. Following the 1938 Polish ultimatum to Lithuania, Lithuania re-established diplomatic relations with Poland and efforts to Polonize Lithuanians living in Poland decreased somewhat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poloni...thuanian_lands
Poland was Imperialistic power, don't pretend otherwise.
Not true. Yes the English tried to Anglicise the Irish (successfully), but they never considered the Irish to be English. They even called the ethnically English Protestant ascendancy of Ireland Irish in the 18th-20th centuries. Writers like Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, W.B. Yeats, Bram Stoker were Anglo-Irish, but were considered Irish and still are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
No, I'm not different than other Poles from my region and I plot like other Western Poles in Global25, and within the Polish cluster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Lucas lives in Torun (Kujawsko-Pomorskie), but he is an immigrant there. Indigenous Poles from Kujawsko-Pomorskie plot like me.
Hmmm - "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse" - this is an Anglo-Irish proverb that I recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
They did not consider themselves Irish, but English - despite being born in the proverbial stable (Ireland).
Also, AFAIK most of the Anglo-Irish emigrated back to England after Ireland regained independence.
I thought it was the case that all East Prussians had some descent from the Old Prussians, be there Germanic, Slavic, or Baltic speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Is that not the case?
Why did you delete it? That's silly IMO. And the results are most likely not up to date.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebbo
I wanted to see what it said and then get the raw data, my understanding is that the ethnicity estimates are not as good now as they were then anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Here is a German-made map showing ethnic Lithuanians ca. year 1876:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
(as you can see Wilna was not Lithuanian but much of East Prussia was)
https://i.imgur.com/czoaIiW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/czoaIiW.jpg
http://www.lithuanianmaps.com/images...achgebiet2.JPG
http://www.lithuanianmaps.com/images...achgebiet2.JPG
Hey Piotr, why are spamming and derailing the thread so hard? It's getting out of hand. I personally would like you to leave the forum for good! :D
That is not an Anglo-Irish proverb, it is a quote by the Irish nationalist MP Daniel O'Connell, referring to the Duke of Wellington (the British national hero) and his supposed Irishness, which was evidently taken for granted in Britain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
https://www.irishphilosophy.com/2018...ll-wellington/
Quote:
Wait! Isn’t that a quote from Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington? It’s commonly thought to be so, but when it appears in recent biographies it is often with a caveat. For example, though Gregor Dallas simply reports the remark (as an example of Wellington rejecting his homeland)3, Gordon Corrigan calls the remark “apocryphal” 4 and Richard Holmes qualifies his account of how “he was to deny his Irishness” with a cautious “(so it was said)”5 Why the caution?
The caution is due to the fact that there seems to be no contemporary evidence of Wellington ever making this remark. On there other hand there is contemporary evidence O’Connell said it of Wellington. In 1844 Shaw’s Authenticated Report of the Irish State Trials, 18446 was printed. An account of Daniel O’Connell’s trial for conspiracy in January 1844, it includes evidence given of O’Connell’s speeches, including (p. 93) one given at a banquet after the Monster Meeting at Mullaghmast (near Ballitore; the meeting was held Sunday the 1st of October 1843):
The following passage in reference to the Duke of Wellington was received with great laughter: “The poor old duke what shall I say of him. To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse.”
Quote:
That can be overplayed as a feature of the Anglo-Irish class. Anglo-Irish people found that while they might be regarded as English in Ireland, they would be regarded as Irish in England. They might call themselves Irish on some occasions and English or British on others. Identity was fluid and contingent. Over the 18th century there was an increasing identification of the Anglo-Irish with Ireland (see this post), which was identifiable in Grattan’s parliament of 1793-18019.
I don't know about most Anglo-Irish re-emigrating to England after Independence, regardless, they were considered Irish in England, and the native Irish would never have been claimed as English just because they spoke it. This isn't Central Europe.Quote:
This clearly is not the only view of what it means to be Irish. The image at the top of this post shows that, in the year O’Connell made his famous remark, a political cartoonist believed depicting Wellington as an Irish chieftain would make sense to the British public. The detailed account of O’Connell’s trial shows O’Connell denied that Wellington was Irish in answer to a voice saying of Wellington, “He is a bad Irishman.”13. Wellington was, therefore, even in Repeal circles, still regarded as Irish.
I saw maps showing how much Protestantism declined in Ireland after independence, how to explain it if not by mass emigration of Protestants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
I'm sure many did emigrate, not just to England, also to the rest of the Empire, or just internally to Ulster. Anyway you're going off on a side issue, I corrected you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
He is mostly Central Polish as far as I know and he is highly (almost fully) early Slavic. You admitted having German surname on your maternal side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
He is mostly from Masovia (around Płock) based on his recent genealogy thread here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
https://slawomirambroziak.pl/forum/i...p?topic=5345.0
And I tested (autosomal + Y-DNA) my maternal grandpa's brother with this surname.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
He turned out to be autosomally more eastern-shifted, and Y-DNA is R1a. Surprising?
Here his coordinates if you want to check (there is some southern admixture as well):
^^^Code:Wladyslaw_Meller_scaled,0.124067,0.125926,0.069767,0.059755,0.040007,0.023427,0.00893,0.009,0.007158,-0.024602,-0.003735,-0.006444,0.013082,0.017203,-0.012622,0.006099,-0.001434,-0.000633,0.004148,0.013006,-0.002496,-0.005564,0.008134,0.004699,-0.005149
Check him with your model, I'm curious (probably will be high amount of Greco-Roman).
Actually he scores significant Germanic for an ethnic Pole (like you)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Target: Wladyslaw_Meller_scaled
Distance: 1.6060% / 0.01606007
71.4 (Balto-)Slavic
23.8 Germanic
2.4 Graeco-Roman
1.2 Finnic_like
1.0 Balkan
0.2 Celtic
Many Germans have Slavic clades of R1a. Your own y-dna is some exotic type of R1b and your paternal line is ethnic Polish.
The Irish language still retains a symbolic status in Ireland, it's not completely lost. They still teach it and use on some occasions. It's also totally different from English, unlike for example some Italian, French and German minority dialects that still more closely resemble the standard idioms in their respective countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
My type of R1b has been found in ancient samples of Hallstatt culture Celts recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
It looks like results other Poles are without Balkan or not near to 10%
Target: Mariusz_scaled
Distance: 1.3707% / 0.01370662
66.8 (Balto-)Slavic
18.6 Germanic
9.8 Balkan
3.2 Turkic
1.6 Finnic_like
Target: Mariusz_scaled
Distance: 1.5114% / 0.01511363 | ADC: 0.5x RC
75.0 (Balto-)Slavic
25.0 Germanic
It's very rare among Poles and non Slavic obviously. I just mentioned because you were implying real Germans can't carry Balto-Slavic R1a.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Well in North Europe PCA he plots around the middle of the Polish cluster:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
https://i.imgur.com/dFI92XF.png
Your model lumps together Baltic & Slavic. Maybe he has some real Baltic?
It is possible that he has some ancestors from East Prussia, but I didn't research it yet.
Actually 4 new ethnic Poles from Belarus joined the L617 Tree on YFull recently:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/ - Grodno Oblast, pol (Polish)
But they are not from the same sub-branch as me (as you can see there).
Tomenable, how much Baltic blood to German / Polish speakers from East Prussia have on average? Thanks very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
What ethnicity someone is or is not is indeed not just a matter of self identification, but of a number of things. I can stand whatever statements, why not? But if a German says he indentifies as a Chinese he will not be a Chinese for me. And if someone that I thoroughly interviewed in November 2018 about the various ethnic characteristics of his mother and the known ancestry and all this turns out to be ethnic German (btw. including the self identification) and this individual later, after being "informed" by Peterska, claims his mother would be Sorb, I can not see that this changes the ethnicity of the mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Everybody can apply the defining characteristics of ethnicity, not just me. But this doesn't mean it can be done by self identification alone.
No that must all be a misunderstanding!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Therefore, when asked about what to dislike most about one's own country, Peterska answered: It's neighbors.
I see the names of the German pops are still in English. Did you decide to leave them in English? Smitty was right saying that people unfamiliar with Germany won't know where Lower Saxony, Franconia, etc. are either.
No, we can change them into German. This is not final version, just provisional. Austrian averages aren't final either. And maybe some German too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Will ask rothaer what he thinks about it.
Good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
I wonder why other Germans are not participating. I don't know too many of them. The OP never posts here, Kyp is mixed and apparently doesn't care much about German/European genetics (he identifies more with Turco-Muslim culture than whites). Teutone never cared about Gedmatch either. Armatus? I don't know if he's still around.
Is the PCA using G25? Can you tell me more about the Central East Prussia samples? Which localities are considered part of this sample. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Would be nice to have Aynoora back, she was lovely and very interested in genetics :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Euroogenes K13 PCA. Central East Prussia is from Braunsberg, she plots like extreme NW German with Baltic (old Prussian) admixture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebbo
Target: German_East_Prussia_Central
Distance: 3.0671% / 3.06710522 | R2P
68.7 German_Frisian
31.3 Latvian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Missed this. Stop trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
A Lithuanian census carried out in the region in 1925 found its total population was 141,000. Declared language was used to classify the inhabitants, and on this basis 43.5 percent were German, 27.6 percent were Lithuanian, and 25.2 percent were "Klaipėdan" (Memelländisch).
The inhabitants of the area were not given a choice on the ballot whether they wanted to be part of the Lithuanian state or part of Germany. Since the pro-German political parties had an overall majority of more than 80% in all elections to the local parliament (see election statistics below) in the interwar period, there can be little doubt that such a referendum would have been in favour of Germany. In fact, the area had been united since the monastic state of the 13th century, and even many Lithuanian-speakers, regarding themselves as East Prussians, declared themselves as "Memellanders/Klaipėdiškiai" in the official census (see below for demographic information) and did not want to belong to a Lithuanian national state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da_Region
Yeah and she's very Germanic, although doesn't look like Judith Rakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Many Germans don't look like that at all. I really have no idea why people think dark natives are a odd occurence there. I've been there recently and they aren't overly blond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
I know. Germans are very diverse. Even politicians for example (obvious minorities are easy to exclude and Jews are pretty rare in modern Germany).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina