Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Obviously they were man I never said they weren't all I said is that Tosks diverged from Ghegs

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Whats your haplogroup J-ZS241 can you explain? :)

:picard1:

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Obviously they were man I never said they weren't all I said is that Tosks diverged from Ghegs

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No, the point is that this story of toponymus is overrated. Here in the forum, i doubt that someone have the slightest knowledge about the slavic toponymus in South Albania. The only thing people know is posting a map of an biased slav scholar.

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Originally Posted by Laberia

The characteristics of Tosk and Gheg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans..
When happened this split? This is hard to say. It`s not impossible that this split existed even when the migration of IE people happened.

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Hard to say when this split occurred tbh

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Originally Posted by Ylla

Whats your haplogroup J-ZS241 can you explain? :)

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It's the European branch of J1 that came into Europe either by Neolithic farmers, Indo-Europeans/Steppe peoples or Paleolithic/Mesolithic populations

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Originally Posted by ilir

I was referring to the study

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.

I am not talking about pure or not, but you can’t ignore the highest levels of IBD sharing in Europe and the fact that that we affected all our neighbours. We are the first in the list of every neighboring country.
And in our list Poland is in the 13 place.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...o.1001555.s003
You admitted South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically,

So are albanians so far, according to the study also descendents of illirians dardans epirots??
I hope this time my english improved a little bit.

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Man, I have always been saying this, so what's your point? Yes, we did indeed greatly effect other people genetically, so much that we are a sort of glue that pieces several populations together. The point in this thread, however, is that Tosks are strongly Slavic-admixed, while Ghegs aren't. It's obvious going from Y-DNA, which even understates the amount of Slavic genetic influence in the south because South Slavs aren't exclusively I2a and R1a, these two are just markers that are obviously not native, just like H, which is without doubt Gypsy.

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

Man, I have always been saying this, so what's your point? Yes, we did indeed greatly effect other people genetically, so much that we are a sort of glue that pieces several populations together. The point in this thread, however, is that Tosks are strongly Slavic-admixed, while Ghegs aren't. It's obvious going from Y-DNA, which even understates the amount of Slavic genetic influence in the south because South Slavs aren't exclusively I2a and R1a, these two are just markers that are obviously not native, just like H, which is without doubt Gypsy.

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.

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We did mix with South Slavs especially Montenegrin's as we did exchange brides with them although obviously this mixing is minor

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Mainly the North-eastern Clans seem to be scoring the most J2b2

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Northwestern too, it seems. Hoti and Gruda(partly).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iner,_1918.jpg

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Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

Northwestern too, it seems. Hoti and Gruda(partly).

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Yh also Kastrati and Shkreli also a part of kelmendi seems to be J2b2 as well, although J2b2 seems to be mainly concentrated in the North-eastern Clans like Krasniqi and the brotherhoods of Mirdita which are located in North-eastern Albania

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Originally Posted by Trojet

Look dude...
What methodology are you talking about? We have to go with the two scientific studies we have regarding Tosks, which is 104 from Sarno et al 2015 plus 121 from Ferri et al. 2010 for a total of 225 Tosks. They pretty much tell the same story regarding Y-DNA distribution.

Or else, If you don't believe these numbers why don't you test yourself or recruit other Tosks to test so we don't have to rely on these studies and help our project at the same time?

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Perderisa testi gjenetik eshte personal, duhet pak me teper informacion. Me metodologji une kuptoj disa gjera.
A eshte i mjaftueshem numri 225 per te percaktuar gjenetiken e gjithe Shqiperise se Jugut?
Keta studiues qe jane marre me testimin e ketyre njerezve, a kane ndonje njohur rreth Shqiperise e para e punes? Sepse c`do vend ka disa karakteristika qe une mendoj se duhen marre ne konsiderate.
Kush jane keta njerez qe jane testuar? Dime gje? A e perfaqeson kampioni i perzgjedhur ne menyre te sakte popullsine e jugut te Shqiperise? Sepse dikush mund te shkoje ne Cole te Vlores ku jetojne jevgjit te marri nja 20 kampione atje, 10 te tjera mund ti marri ne gjithe qytetin e Vlores dhe te nxjerri nje rezultat final per gjithe qytetin e Vlores.
Keta njerez qe jane testuar, ka raste kur ndermhet ketyre personave kane lidhje gjaku.
Ju qe jeni nje ekspet ne kete fushe mund te shtoni edhe nje shume pyetje te tjera. Mbase ndonje pyetje e imja nuk eshte e sakte, por me keto dhe te tjera une kuptoj, metodologji.
Kjo u puna e testimit tim u be legjende. Ketu nuk po flasim per mua si person, por per nje pjese te konsiderueshme te popullsise shqiptare.
And since we are talking about science, because genetic is a science, i want your personal opinion and the opinion of all the others here about this scientist of XIX century:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Kiepert
Please don`t forget to give an opinion about this scientist.


EDIT.
I can recruit other Tosk, but nobody will take seriously this my initiative.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

And no, it doesn't say Albanians are descendants of any population, what it says that Albanians are descended from an originally small, cohesive population.

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not exactly but maybe is due to my non proper english.

This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one.

Thnx for your time

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Originally Posted by ilir

not exactly but maybe is due to my non proper english.

This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one.

Thnx for your time

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No, it's not your English, but simply stupidity. Yes, Albanians descend, on the scale of 1.5k or more years, from a small population. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

No, it's not your English, but simply stupidity. Yes, Albanians descend, on the scale of 1.5k or more years, from a small population. What's your point?

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Who lived more than 1500 years in this area and are we their descendents ??

Djema, tema eshte hapur per CTS10228 dhe nen-degat saja si Z17855, Y4460 'Din S', dhe S17250 'Din N' qe gjenden ne Ballkan, e sidomos nen Toske. Qe nuk e kuptoni se cka nenkuptojne kto nomenklatura, ju kisha lute qe mos t'i beni pompim me kesaj teme.

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Originally Posted by Dema

Whaat you are not R1b afterall, are you really I2a1???

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Yes I am R1b. So?

Doesnt take away the fact I2 is an indigenous lineage pre Neolithic expansion. North and North Western Balkans probably mixed with Scythians that carried R1a and over a couple of millenia developed splits I2a1 and I2a2.

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Originally Posted by ilir

Who lived more than 1500 years in this area and are we their descendents ??

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This is the last time I reply to your stupid shit. It doesn't say anything about where this population came from and who they were. If you think that I am somehow against the Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians, then it's an assumption you make because of your incapability of logical reasoning. I am simply stating the clear fact that Tosks have a large amount of Slavic blood.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

If you think that I am somehow against the Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians, then it's an assumption you make because of your incapability of logical reasoning.

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So you never said that, you are not against ??
Thnx in advance for your patience.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT.../arbereshe.jpg

17percent I + 13 percent R1a in Tiranovo

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

This is the last time I reply to your stupid shit. It doesn't say anything about where this population came from and who they were. If you think that I am somehow against the Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians, then it's an assumption you make because of your incapability of logical reasoning. I am simply stating the clear fact that Tosks have a large amount of Slavic blood.

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I don't know how genetics work, so I'm asking and not implying anything. Shouldn't we look more like the other Slavs if we had that much of a percentage Slavic genes??

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Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

You're tying haplos to identities yourself. I2a was found among Neolithic farmers only so far.

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Actually it (more specifically I2a1b which is being discussed here) was found among northern hunter-gatherers. Loschbour from Luxembourg, Motala samples from Sweden, Pitted Ware samples from Gotland, Berry-au-Bac from France, that recent Estonian sample, etc.
The last haplogroup in Europe (together with northern I2a1a) to abandon hunting and gathering.
Native European haplo par excellence.

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Originally Posted by cosmoo

Actually it (more specifically I2a1b which is being discussed here) was found among northern hunter-gatherers. Loschbour from Luxembourg, Motala samples from Sweden, Pitted Ware samples from Gotland, Berry-au-Bac from France, that recent Estonian sample, etc.
The last haplogroup in Europe (together with northern I2a1a) to abandon hunting and gathering.
Native European haplo par excellence.

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Yes. That's what's been shown so far.

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Originally Posted by Ujku

I don't know how genetics work, so I'm asking and not implying anything. Shouldn't we look more like the other Slavs if we had that much of a percentage Slavic genes??

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It doesn't work like that.

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Originally Posted by catgeorge

Yes I am R1b. So?

Doesnt take away the fact I2 is an indigenous lineage pre Neolithic expansion. North and North Western Balkans probably mixed with Scythians that carried R1a and over a couple of millenia developed splits I2a1 and I2a2.

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R1b BY611?

As for I2, no one is saying that there wasn't once it time some I2 here but that happens not to be I2a1b CTS 10228 which is almost exclusive in Balkan I2a1.
I2a1b CTS 10228 arrived in Balkan as Slavs in 6th and 7th centuries.

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Originally Posted by Dick

I never bothered learning about other y-dna clades other than my own but I2a1 seems very interesting regarding the balkans. I wonder why it's more common with balkan slavs than with other slavs. Could be the same reason as to why E-v13 is more common with albanians. They fucked like rabbits and had 10+ kids per family since the middle ages. What else are you gonna do in the mountans other than fuck and eat.







http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...DNA.shtml#I2a1

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Dude you are a handsome man.

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Originally Posted by Dema

R1b BY611?

As for I2, no one is saying that there wasn't once it time some I2 here but that happens not to be I2a1b CTS 10228 which is almost exclusive in Balkan I2a1.
I2a1b CTS 10228 arrived in Balkan as Slavs in 6th and 7th centuries.

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I2a1b = Daddy indigenous to Europe - mummy most likely R1a/G or J or a fusion and combination of all I understand we need to keep it simple here.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

It doesn't work like that.

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Can you explain me what this slavic gene means for us?? If it doesn't affect our appearance , then what does it do??

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Originally Posted by catgeorge

I2a1b = Daddy indigenous to Europe - mummy most likely R1a/G or J or a fusion and combination of all I understand we need to keep it simple here.

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Europe since the Meso/Neolithic is a result of R1, J and E males raping/taking U-women(the wives of I carriers)

Y-dna carriers can't be "mummy", you are misinformed.

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Originally Posted by Ujku

Can you explain me what this slavic gene means for us?? If it doesn't affect our appearance , then what does it do??

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Ydna doesn't play a role in appearance in fact it doesn't even play are role in autosomal results

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Originally Posted by Ujku

Can you explain me what this slavic gene means for us?? If it doesn't affect our appearance , then what does it do??

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Y-DNA is something you inherit no matter what from your father. If your father was from China with a typical Chinese Y-DNA marker 2k years ago, you'd still have it. It's useful for looking at migrations of populations with different Y-DNA distributions, but not at all useful on an individual basis or between populations with similar Y-DNA distributions. I2a and R1a are undoubtedly not native to the Balkans before the Slavic migrations, we know that anyone who has either of those haplogroups in the Balkans has paternally Slavic ancestry if you look far back enough. We can't tell what affects this has had on appearance after hundreds, maybe more than a thousand, years of mixing.

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Originally Posted by Dema

R1b BY611?

As for I2, no one is saying that there wasn't once it time some I2 here but that happens not to be I2a1b CTS 10228 which is almost exclusive in Balkan I2a1.
I2a1b CTS 10228 arrived in Balkan as Slavs in 6th and 7th centuries.

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Doubtful he tested, with such little knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Herr Abubu

Y-DNA is something you inherit no matter what from your father. If your father was from China with a typical Chinese Y-DNA marker 2k years ago, you'd still have it. It's useful for looking at migrations of populations with different Y-DNA distributions, but not at all useful on an individual basis or between populations with similar Y-DNA distributions. I2a and R1a are undoubtedly not native to the Balkans before the Slavic migrations, we know that anyone who has either of those haplogroups in the Balkans has paternally Slavic ancestry if you look far back enough. We can't tell what affects this has had on appearance after hundreds, maybe more than a thousand, years of mixing.

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How much MENA ancestry tosk Albanians score??

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Originally Posted by Ujku

How much MENA ancestry tosk Albanians score??

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Probably 0% like us Ghegs

Couldn't find any sources though on Tosk autosomal results

Autosomally i would guess tosks are more acient balkans than us ghegs in general.

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Originally Posted by Drawing-slim

Autosomally i would guess tosks are more acient balkans than us ghegs in general.

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How?

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Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

Europe since the Meso/Neolithic is a result of R1, J and E males raping/taking U-women(the wives of I carriers)

Y-dna carriers can't be "mummy", you are misinformed.

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MtDNA U is comparatively low in Europe compared to immigrant haplogroups, like H.
I men decreased in numbers more because they couldn't afford large population size with their lifestyle, plus they probably died from animal-transmitted diseases IE and Neolithic farmers brought, much like Amerindians when Europeans came.
Don't start discussion on superiority, for as far as we know, aboriginal Europeans win that title in every regard. It's just that quantity beats quality very often.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

Probably 0% like us Ghegs

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Well , that's what counts.

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Originally Posted by cosmoo

MtDNA U is comparatively low in Europe compared to immigrant haplogroups, like H.
I men decreased in numbers more because they couldn't afford large population size with their lifestyle, plus they probably died from animal-transmitted diseases IE and Neolithic farmers brought, much like Amerindians when Europeans came.
Don't start discussion on superiority, for as far as we know, aboriginal Europeans win that title in every regard. It's just that quantity beats quality very often.

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R-carriers so far have proven to be the most successful historically, especially the Indo-Europeans no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Kelmendasi

How?

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Because tosks are not tribal and never went to far way from their village to get a wife while ghegs always had to ship in women from across region and beyond borders too. Like skenderbeg's mother for example. Even today, amongst ghegs there are more "foreign" wives in comparison to tosks.

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Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

R-carriers so far have proven to be the most successful historically, especially the Indo-Europeans no doubt.

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As I've already said, taking sparsely-populated area by sheer numerosity and with help of diseases is certainly not very impressive.