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That word is borderline non-existent. Both Leto and Aspirin would lie if they'd tell me that they've ever heard of it in Russian before today.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow
In R. Moldova, Cebotari is the 5th most popular surname and ciubota is the common word for heavy shoes.
And if the Ukrainian version is chobota, then why don't surnames starting with Chobot exist in Ukraine?
They only have surname versions with our chebot.
I literally knew a family with that surname. And the Wiki page has dozens of Russian Chebotaryovs.
Sure, but you didn't know what it meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
No such thing ever happened in the Romanian language (neither "Relatinization" nor a "purge of slavic words").Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Calling the modernization of the Romanian language Relatinization is a political stance of anti-Romanian fear-mongers (mostly Austro-Hungarian and Russian, because their states were rabidly anti-Romanian).
Even if I didn't, that doesn't mean no one else didn't either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
I'm not anti Romanian. Many languages had vocabulary changes. Turkish for example. I didn't even say it was wrong. I actually think it was a good thing overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
I don't know your stance regarding Romania and Romanians, but you often sound dismissive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Regardless of that, purposeful "Relatinization of Romanian" is not something that happened, even though there is a wikipedia article about it :D , written unsurprisingly by a Hungarian nationalist (borsoka).
Now, of course, Romanian went through a period of language reform in the 18 and 19th century, like all European languages.
This surname is old here, and in Ukraine he clearly show his origins. The Russian version is common in Eastern Ukraine (Donbass).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Чеботар: Найчастіше - на Буковині
https://ridni.org/karta/%D0%A7%D0%B5...82%D0%B0%D1%80
Чеботарь: Найчастіше - на Буджаку
https://ridni.org/karta/%D0%A7%D0%B5...B0%D1%80%D1%8C
Чеботару: Найчастіше - на Буковині
https://ridni.org/karta/%D0%A7%D0%B5...B0%D1%80%D1%83
By Relatinization they mean borrowing words from Classical Latin and French. I guess that did happen. Romanian is not your typical Romance language because the Romanians are Eastern Orthodox and originally relied on Church Slavonic instead of Latin which was the case in Italy, France and Iberia.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
I didn't dispute that. But you said yourself it is East Slavic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
I'm certainly not questioning that those guys are Russians, or in the case of the person that I saw - Belarussian, but it might be possible that their distant paternal ancestor who introduced the surname was from Moldova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
I can't explain otherwise why there aren't any surnames with the root "Chobot" in Ukraine. Only "Chebot" varieties exist and obviously that also overflew into Russia.
Yes, the word Ciubota is Slavic in origin, but archaic, since interaction with East Slavs (Rusyns) was common in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
I don't know the reason. I actually heard choboty (= big or clumsy shoes) when I was a kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
English borrowed massively from French and Latin during the same period, but nobody calls that process Latinization of English. Relatinization of Romanian is a political term, here's why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
There are only 2 ways of modernizing/enriching the vocabulary of a language: borrowing words from a similar language (for ease with declensions, particularly in synthetic languages, such as Romanian) or by creating new words from concatenating old words already in the language. Romanian and Romance languages in general prefer the first method. Germanic languages, or those being under the influence of German culture, use the second method.
Regardless of the enrichment method, Romanian would have increased the proportion of Latin origin words, because the amount of Slavic words in the common Romanian vocabulary was small (less than 10%). Slavic words were very domain specific - they were related to Church, medieval administration, and certain occupations, so they were of little help with modernization, and words had to be adopted from those in use in already modernized societies, such as the French. And so "Relatinization" is a moot point, the correct term should be "modernization".
Btw, only the Slavic words related to administration fell out of use, because the realities they were attached went away in modern times. Nonetheless, they are still in the vocabulary as archaisms.
That's a normal process for a lot of languages. Russian also went through it and does so everyday, just like any other language.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDSn1HWY8J8
Yes, have the same meaning here, and is a very used word till today. In Romania the surname Ciubotaru is common only in Moldavian region, which shows old East Slavic origins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
https://www.hartanumeromanesti.eu/en...otaru&s=Search
Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
Even though I'm no expert in Romanian or even Romance by any means (I know only Russian, English and German plus bits of other languages and general knowledge from studying linguistics), I think you would agree that Chisinau speech is significantly more Slavicized than that of Bucharest. You need to target those folks first, they're actually corrupting the language and need Relatinization :D
This is the archaic version of Ciubotaru most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
https://www.hartanumeromanesti.eu/en...OTARU&s=Search
There's nothing wrong with that. Our slang in Chisinau has Russian and English flavours. That in Bucharest is not pure by any means. They have Romani and English flavours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Still, even this version is common in Moldavian region. For some reason some slavic words who are used here are very archaic and today are not used by some Slavs, or not used at all. Such a simple word like "Veverița" (Веверица), only recent I discovered what is of Slavic origin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
People in Chisinau are bilinguals, they mix languages. When they speak to a Romanian they reduce the number of Russian words to a naught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Nobody in Romania speaks with a "Romani flavour". There are only about 20 to 30 gypsy words that Romanians understand, and they're all slang - not for common use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
If we have a Russian flavour then you have Romani flavour. People here either speak properly in Romanian or Russian. What we mix as part of the slang are the same nasol, naspa, sictir and what not because I'm not so familiar with your variety, but in Russian version.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
And the reason these borrowings exist in the first place is probably because equivalents didn't exist in Romanian.
Like I said, people in Chisinau are bilinguals, they mix Romanian and Russian when they speak to equally bilingual speakers. Many Moldovans in the Republic are native level Russian speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
This is not the case with Romanians. Romanians know shit about the gypsy language. 20 to 30 gypsy words, that's all they know, and all of these words are slang, not recommended to use with people you don't know.
A taxi driver from Bucharest is the most disgusting thing you can hear in this country and you canțt deny it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
unless he's a gypsy, he won't know more than 20-30 gypsy words.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow
African American English influences the speech of non-Blacks through urban subculture. Since the Tziganes are sort of the Blacks of Romania, I thought their "gangsta" influence would be stronger.
We was under Russian Empire and Soviet Union, here happen process of russification in the past, plus the Russian media, music, TV is still very popular here. Before I move to urban area, I didn't know any Russian. In you case, is the opposite, I don't remember Romania to be under some Gypsy Empire, but Romania is very cucked by Gypsies today, were Romanians use many words of Gypsy origin in their language, and they are more than 20-30, plus some are not slang, but common words. Feel the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
In Moldova exist Gypsies too (50-100.000), but I don't see Moldavians to use Gypsy words.
I think I already asked you - is Russian media more popular in Moldova than Romanian? I mean from the countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
50-100,000? The census said 12k in 2004 and 9k in 2014. Do they declare themselves Moldovans?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
Both are popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
make a list of those gypsy words you claim you hear, let see if it gets over 30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
this is just an excuse used by anti-unionists, moldovenists - I heard it a billion times and it's based on nothing.
make the list, put up or shut up.
Some yes, some can declare as Ukrainians and even Russians, some don't declare their identity at all. But they are more in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
nope. 20 to 30 gypsy words is all Romanians can understand, after having gypsies here for almost a thousand years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
this tells you everything you need to know about the amount of contact Romanians had/have with gypsies.
Thanks for teaching me about my city. You can now go back and re-read what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
I guess the Romani language is pretty much dying out. It's like in Spain - only a few slang words have survived plus improper grammar and pronunciation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
This don't have anything to do with moldovenism, just simple facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ixulescu
Yeah, it is, at least in Romania, but probably in R. Moldova too. Our Gypsies usually have Russian as their native language believe it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Here's the proportion of Gypsies in each county in Romania, who can speak the Roma language
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...omania.svg.png
maybe i didn't read you right,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
but the amount of Russian use in Chisinau is incomparable with the handful of gypsy words Romanians understand.
how many Moldovans understand Russian? maybe half, I don't know.
but certainly no Romanian understands Romani, none.
Gypsies in Russia, from what I've heard myself, use a mixture of Romani and Russian among themselves. They're not full Russian monolinguals.