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I have never said that all R-U106 are proto-germanic, I just said that the proto-germanic were a group of R-U106 carrier who settled in Scandinavia and were the trigger of the birth of the germanic culture, then the first germanic people was an hybrid between I1, R-U106 and R1A and were scandinavians.
The other U106 carriers who were more lately germanized, spoke celtic languages before.
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/49...rationsv02.png
Where do you place the proto-Germanic homeland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
The U106 is probably related to the halstat and la tène culture but it's older, there are also many branches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
I would say south Scandinavia because it's where the germanic culture was born.
Scandinavia is a big place, language starts in a specific region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
I guess it was in Svealand, most choose Denmark-Scania.
When Æsir–Vanir War was being fought one reason to conclude peace was because Jutes where threatening both sides, Jutes come from Denmark.
In fact, you're right, I don't know what I answered so badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vojvod
I've maybe not read your posts :icon_cheesygrin:
It is very likely to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
Naturally I am speculating, it is not scientific but I firmly believe the mythology is based on real events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
But the linguistic evidence places the homeland next to proto-Finnic so combined with genetics it is a theory worth considering.
Other subject :
Is the anglo-saxons-jutes influence dominant in UK ?
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/61...losaxonmap.jpg
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/49...rationsv02.png
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/78...plogroupI1.gif
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/78...roupR1bS21.gif
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/54...lticEurope.gif
It was before the Normans came with their French ways. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
I do think England is dominantly Germanic culturally and genetically but with a very strong Romano-British substrate.
Rest of Britain is not included in this, Scotland and Wales have different history.
The battle of Hastings was only a succession war, the normans have a negligeable influence on the modern englishman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
Further informations on the subclades could lead to a better knowledge of the impact of the germanic invasion in Britain, it seems that the celtic influence could be higher than expected but different than the irish, welsh and Scott, for me
Psychological thriller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
I ment that culturally Normans had a huge impact, but I would think genetically also above their numbers, but they where large part Norse themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
How much of the R1b is of Nordic origin is the deciding factor, we now know women also moved from the continent so that brings up the Germanic part.
R1b U106 is probably not related to halstat and la tene. First R1b U106 has been found in Southern Sweden 2275-2032 BC BC and plotted with Norwegians and Swedes. It's been suggested that these people likely contributed significantly to Proto-Germanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawalye
At the moment it's impossible to say where exactly Proto-Germanic was born, however you should take a look at this. It's from the site anthrogenica and it's quite interesting.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachme...0&d=1396291948Quote:
People speaking a dialect of Proto-Indo-European moved north from the Usatovo culture on the European steppe.
They crossed the north European plain, where they mixed with TRB farmers, who spoke a non-IE language, and they adopted a lot of words from that language. They also came into contact with Celtic [correction - Italo-Celtic/western IE] speakers.
The mixed group entered Scandinavia, which at the time had a suitable climate for arable farming. There they encountered people speaking other languages and adopted words from them. (About 1/3 of the Germanic lexicon is non-IE.)
Then the climate turned too cold and wet in Scandinavia, forcing farmers south into the Jastorf culture and its equivalent in Pomerania. Here they came into contact with iron-working Celts and adopted some words from them. This is where the final sound changes seem to have taken place that created Proto-Germanic about 500 BC.
Proto-Germanic is the final stage of the language before it split into East, West and North Germanic. The first to split away was East Germanic (Gothic). The Goths moved south not because of floods (as far as I know), but in pursuit of better opportunities to the south, with which they were familiar because of the amber route.
Flooding certainly seems to be involved in driving some of the West Germanic speakers away from the (Proto-Germanic) homeland and areas that they had spread into from that homeland. Obviously they didn't all leave!
I would say R1b-U106, R1a and R1b-L11* contributed mostly to Proto-Germanic. Germanic language has around 1/3 non-ie the Germanic lexicon. I believe that I1 was rather ''Germanized'' and partly contributed the 1/3 non-ie of the Germanic lexicon
This a traditional and good explanation but it does not explain the proto-Finnic contact from the start, more northern location in Sweden, Finland or Baltic coast would explain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hevo
Gutasaga tells that the first place Goths migrated to on their route to modern Russia was in modern Estonia, and East-Germanic was the first to separate from proto-Germanic, again pointing more North.
I dont take everything literally in the sagas but brushing them aside is also not wise IMO.
I1
I am aware of Jaska's posts and views about Proto-Germanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Äijä
His post
One thing is for sure that the development of the Proto-Germanic language was very complicated, all options are still open.Quote:
Your open-minded suggestion seems quite valid at the moment, if we take a look at the linguistic evidence:
1. Lots of Germanic loanwords not only in Finnish but in Saami, too, including layers like: Northwest Indo-European, Pre-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Proto-Germanic, Northwest-Germanic, Proto-Nordic...
2. Only few loanwords between Germanic and Baltic (or Slavic), and none preceding the proper Proto-Germanic level of reconstruction (although older loanwords would be more difficult to distinguish from the real inherited cognates).
3. Proto-Finnic and Proto-Saami are found in the Southwestern Finland at the Proto-Germanic era, around 500 BC (since which we also have retained Germanic placenames in Finland); before that Finnic was spoken in the southern side of Gulf of Finland, and Saami somewhere in Karelia. Saami does not spread to Lapland before the Christian Era, and Finnish still a millennium later.
Indeed, we have a solid basis to argue that the Germanic homeland was in Southwestern Finland (maybe already since the Corded Ware Culture).
One counter-argument:
Few proposed Celtic loanwords in Germanic supposedly precede the Grimm's Law, thus representing southwestern contacts already during the Palaeo-Germanic times (~1000-500 BC).
There are also some recent papers surrounding this issue, the proto-Finnic contact from the start is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hevo
Question is where are the two in close contact, if it is not in Estonia or Finland then we have the L550 with a possible spread also in Sweden at that time.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-Z4908/
My guess is that Jaska is working on something as he has been pretty quiet.
how about R1a-L664? R1b would of came from R1a right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hevo
Surely not I1, as this is pre-Germanic factor. Pre means BEFORE. And Germanic people are Indo-Europeans. I-people are not.
el bumpo
For over a thousand years while this culture existed, the Proto-Germanic R1b and R1a-L664 tribes would have acquired vocabulary from the pre-existing Corded Ware population that they assimilated, which was itself a blend of Proto-Balto-Slavic languages (linked to haplogroup R1a-Z284) and languages of non-Indo-European origin (linked to haplogroups G2a, I1 and I2).
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...shtml#Germanic