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Well that's the thing, Afrikaners are considered an ethnic group, but too new a one ... not one of the stabilized groups. It is barely a few hundred years old. So no, I wouldn't qualify.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer
As to your question, mainly from Dutch and Germans.
Okay, but the fact remains you still belong to the European people. Surprising results aside, you can only submit yourself and expect a pleasant denial. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Yes but you see ... if someone had like a German father and Dutch mother, they wouldn't qualify. So why would I? I'm essentially something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer
Dutch and German. Ice and snow. Who knows till you submit your results?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
He is closing up shop soon, or so he seems to be hinting at, so get in there regardless of your primary considerations. :thumb001:
Loki, just lie and say you're from Cleves. ;)
I'll just post my admixture score again for comparison
West Asian 9.2
Northwest African 0
South European 17.1
Northeast Asian 0
Southwest Asian 0
East Asian 0
North European 73.7
West African 0
East African 0
South Asian 0
evon(West Norwegian)
West Asian 6,8
Northwest African 0
South European 23
Northeast Asian 0
Southwest Asian 0
East Asian 0,8
North European 69,4
West African 0
East African 0
South Asian 0
I was told:
Quote:
While your ancestry does not fit the submission criteria, it sounds interesting, so I will include your data in the Project.
The Dutch are Germans but not the converse. He probably has very few or no pure Dutch samples. It's good to see you got in the project before the submission opportunity ended. After the submissions end, he'll start on the other phases of the project.
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Clusters Galore with Dodecad populations
Here is a spreadsheet of Clusters Galore analysis with Dodecad populations: 692 reference individuals + 261 Dodecad Project participants from 24 different populations with at least 5 members each:Assyrian, Scandinavian, Greek, Finnish, S_Italian_Sicilian, Ashkenazi, German, Indian, Portuguese, Armenian, Russian, Spanish, British, Irish, Turkish, N_Italian, Balkans, Iranian, North_African, East_African, French, Chinese, Japanese, PolishAs a reminder to new readers, the Clusters Galore technique consists of applying multidimensional scaling on genomic data to convert ~152,000 SNPs into a number of continuous dimensions capturing most of the variation, followed by employment of MCLUST to cluster individuals along these dimensions.
In total, 65 clusters were obtained when 10 MDS dimensions were retained.
Some observations:
- Most Greeks and all South Italians/Sicilians continue to fall in the same cluster #4. The fact that the latter population, despite being one of the largest (20 individuals) continues to remain unsplit and distinctive testifies to the fact that it is probably homogeneous and lacks substantial regional inbreeding within it.
- Cluster #2 includes most Germanic individuals and also the Irish
- Cluster #5 is made mostly of Central/North Italians
- Non-Greek Balkan participants fall mostly in cluster #6, which also includes the non-Gypsy admixed reference Romanians
- Project and reference Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) continue to be undifferentiated and distinctive, falling in cluster #14; my comments on South Italians/Sicilians also probably apply to them as well.
- There is a trace of structure in the Ashkenazi population, which is split into two clusters. This probably underscores the benefits of large samples in the inference of structure, as 25 Ashkenazi Jews have submitted their results to the Project.
- Project Russians have split affiliations between a circum-Baltic cluster #3 and the Finnish cluster #7.
- North Africans form two new clusters that do no overlap with either reference Mozabites or Egyptians. There is great variety in North Africa, and the 8 people who have submitted their samples are a good start to learning about this region of the world.
- The Chinese are split into two, one part aligning with the "southern" Miaozu and one part aligning with the "northern" Japanese.
Please do not ask me which cluster you fall in, as there will be a separate analysis of Project participants identified by their DOD number but without ethnic identifiers, in compliance with the Project's privacy policy.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/...h-dodecad.html
Cluster 2 appears “Germanic or Celto-Germanic”. All the Irish fell into it. Ten out of 11 Germans and 16 of 17 Brits were in it. The other one German was in the French cluster. The other one Brit fell into cluster 6 that includes eight of 10 from the Balkans and 14 of 16 Romanians. Some French are in cluster 2. Twelve out of the 19 Scandinavians were in cluster 2. The other seven fell into cluster 3 “circum-Baltic”. Cluster 3 includes all the Lithuanians, Belorussians, and five out of six Poles. Pallantides is probably in cluster 3. There are four Russians in the Finn cluster. The other eight Russians are in cluster 3. I would expect Southern Swedes or most to be in cluster 2. One Finn made it in cluster 3 likely a Fennoswede. The Portuguese and Spaniards fall into the same cluster along with one Northern Italian and two French.
Most of the Armenians are in cluster 15. This includes all eight Dodecad samples and 15 of 19 from (a) dataset(s). Eight of nine Assyrians are in cluster 15 along with two Turks and one Syrian. The Assyrians are similar to the Armenians. Sixteen of 21 Turks are in cluster 18 along with one Armenian and one Syrian. Sixteen of 20 Georgians are in cluster 31 with no one else. All Lezgians are in cluster 30 with three Georgians and 11 of 17 Adyghe. All Iranians are in cluster 19 with one Turk.
Although the IDs go up to DOD448, the Dodecad samples tally up to 261 for the 65 cluster analysis. Those that are ethnically mixed weren’t included.
Clusters Galore, K=65, 36 reference populations (692 individuals) + 24 Dodecad populations (261 individuals)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CO355tgB#gid=0
I'm DOD197, on this one I appear to be in cluster 7.
Post by Fanty from the Dodecad blog
There are also two White Uthan samples in the cluster.Quote:
The ones who typed in their heritage in the Anchestry thread:
5 Germans (with a Tendency for Eastgermans or Prussians from the now lost "Eastern Terretories" (Silesia etc)
1 German/Polish/Belorussian
1 German/Serbian/Slovako
1 American with mainly German and English heritage.
2 Slovenians
2 Norse
1 Irish
Also:
Some people who belong to 2 or more Clusters are in this cluster combined with the White Utahns Cluster.
1 Norse, 1 British and one German or so and Cluster 12 and 7 at the same time.
No other multiclustering of Cluster 7.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/...r-dodecad.html
He included more Dodecad samples 410 of 449 compared to the last one that had 261 Dodecad samples. This analysis showed IDs including the ethnically mixed but not Dodecad samples grouped by populations with no IDs like the last run.
This part looks interesting.
Quote:
I plan to explore fine-scale structure of Dodecad Project members further, especially of those who belong to large, undifferentiated clusters that may harbor latent informative structure.
That spreadsheet was from January and the samples went up to DOD307. The Irish looks out of place if comparing to the latest run, but I haven't looked at the IDs to verify.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
On that one I'm in cluster 25
Quote:
The single largest cluster is #3 which is mostly "British Isles"
Cluster #26 encompasses most Greek/South Italian/Sicilian individuals; not how this is not represented in the reference populations, which lack such individuals
Cluster #23, also absent in the reference populations encompasses mainly Finns and some Russians
Cluster #25 is also quite large, consisting of 42 Project members and only 2 reference White Utahns. This consists largely of North/Central Europeans from continental Europe.
Cluster #4 includes mainly Iberians
Cluster #11 mainly Ashkenazi Jews
Cluster #15 mainly Turks
Cluster #16 mainly people from the Balkans
Cluster #27 mainly North-Central Italians not in #26 (the Greco-Italian cluster)
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/...r-dodecad.html
I fall 69% into cluster 3, which Dienekes says is "British Isles", and 29% into cluster 24, that I see is "French" in the bottom legend.
How did you figure out which one you were? I sent an e-mail with my raw data but never got a reply.
He will email you back and tell you your ID ... maybe you should send him a reminder?Quote:
Originally Posted by AcadianDriftwood
If one looks at the Fst distances of ancestral components of North European, South European and West Asian, the differences are about the same to each other. If going by that, calling one component such as North European as Paleolithic and another Neolithic makes absolutely no sense. There are some absurd things people say about the components.
By the way, Karl is in the cluster with the Lithuanians. Going by that, he looks “Baltic”. It's not surprising.
I'm 100% Cluster 22 (DOD365)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/03...lto-slavs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x-Fra8_Hp4.../s1600/MDS.png
I have no idea wich of the Scandinavians I am.
You do not know how I look like and there's nothing Baltic about southern-Finnics. Look at the Y-DNA of the Lithuanians, they're so heavily Finnic(opposite of Baltic), that only the Finns have more N1c1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
It is possible to draw parallels with the Balkan area. Most of them are Slavic, but genetically, they're not that Slavic at all. The same applies to Lithuanians, the native Finnic blood still runs in their veins.
I am slowly getting fed up with people making assumptions without looking at 5000 years of history. What's next? Germans are actually Italian, because of the Germanic presence to Northern-Italy?
Practically saying, if the sample population would be Estonian, then the Lithuanians would score high Estonian scores and everyone would be saying that they're "Finnic", not "Baltic". The naivety of some people is remarkable. Lithuanians are one of the most "Finnic" people in Europe, after the Finns.
I'm not sure if Deniker would label me as "Nordique"Quote:
Franco-Russian anthropologist Deniker divided the light-pigmented Northern Europeans into a race nordique and a race orientale. So, it is a bit surprising to see that a basic division of northern Europeans into East and West has stood the test of time.
I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
Finns have detectable admixture from Central Siberians and Nganasans. Of the Nganasans, 92.1% had marker P43 which included 38 samples from Karafet et al. 2002. Finland’s population is very small even more so in the past so a drastic change in Y-DNA was so much more susceptible. So many people neglect that! Some studies aren’t very representable of the entire populations. Y-DNA doesn’t give the entire picture of migrations. The high presence of M178 and P298 is interesting. Those N1c1 bearers could have become progressively more Caucasoid/West Eurasian over time in terms of autosomal level before settling in parts of Europe. There are too many possibilities and factors. As for R1b in the West or other haplogroups in other areas, you need to consider things like polygamy, warfare, heightened or diminished male fertility in certain subclades or whatever. Newcomers may have become the rulers by force.Quote:
Look at the Y-DNA of the Lithuanians, they're so heavily Finnic(opposite of Baltic), that only the Finns have more N1c1.
Imagine a model where a few individuals from a highly cultured warlike tribe slaughtered 1000s of more primitive men. This would result in a dramatic difference of gender ratio of the indigenous population. Then, the successful warlike men would mate with the indigenous women most likely multiple women and prettier ones at that leaving the uglier ones to the losing men causing the Y-DNA ratio to change over time in an exponential fashion in the resulting population. It could be quick and large in scope. In other situations, the demographic change in Y-DNA proportions could take longer.
Imagine IE nobility taking wives in some population of much greater size. Over time, the autosomal DNA of the IE would become diminished and diluted even if each IE male was taking more wives than each of the other population’s males. This would be due to their smaller initial population being outnumbered relative to the other population. The Y-DNA proportion of the IE’s paternal lineage would increase but not the autosomal DNA. There are all kinds different scenarios.
Also spermatogenic ability is different among males in different Y chromosome lineages: http://www.springerlink.com/content/amx117kh5vgrw2yt/
When full genome sequencing is done, we’ll be able to see how the haplogroups/haplotypes are related among each other on a better scale. Using Y-STRs are too noisy.
Culture and language don’t necessarily correlate with genetics.Quote:
It is possible to draw parallels with the Balkan area. Most of them are Slavic, but genetically, they're not that Slavic at all. The same applies to Lithuanians, the native Finnic blood still runs in their veins.
What isn’t possible to draw parallels? There was some interaction, but Germans are very distinct today from Italians. This is due to the mountains of the Alps. In fact, the isolated genetic barrier between Germans and Italians is one of the most distinct in Europe. With absolute certainty, can you tell me what happened 5,000 years ago?Quote:
I am slowly getting fed up with people making assumptions without looking at 5000 years of history. What's next? Germans are actually Italian, because of the Germanic presence to Northern-Italy?
How are Lithuanians the second most Finnic? By both projects with certain parameters, you don’t genetically cluster with Scandinavians/Nordics (i.e., Swedes and Norwegians) nor Finnish. You’re making speculations, and it appears you’re deriving it from the North European component when that component encompasses several subset elements.Quote:
Practically saying, if the sample population would be Estonian, then the Lithuanians would score high Estonian scores and everyone would be saying that they're "Finnic", not "Baltic". The naivety of some people is remarkable. Lithuanians are one of the most "Finnic" people in Europe, after the Finns.
Scandinavians share some of their ancestry with Germans/Brits and some ancestry with Baltics. Balts are more similar with Slavs though. Your allele sharing distance is closer to some Poles including Polako and Russians than all the Finns on his project.
Dienekes is a bit of a fruitcake when it comes to these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Neither MDS plots, nor pairwise individual distances, like ASD or IBS, can say who's "nordique" and who isn't. I bet some of those Lithuanians in the far top left of his new plot are pretty damn "nordique".
There are three different issues that need to be considered separately, and not lumped together...
a) PCA-MDS clusters and distances deal with broad ancestry, and are basically used to separate breeding, ethnic and linguistic groups.
b) Pairwise distances show who we're most similar to in terms of overall genetic structure, and people who are top of our lists need not be in the same intra-European clusters on various plots or in other cluster comparisons. For example, three Belorussians in my dataset are always in the to ten of most Scandinavians out of 2000 people based on 250K to 500K SNPs, but they're always far from them on intra-North Euro plots.
c) Genetic, epigenetic and environmental factors that affect phenotype. These will often show correlation with a) and/or b), but not necessarily.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/03/...r-dodecad.html
I'm in cluster 21 along with most Scandinavians
Quote:
Cluster #2 is by far the largest, consisting of mainly of "British Isles"/American White types of people; this grew substantially because of the recent open submission call when many people of this type of ancestry joined
Cluster #3 is essentially Ashkenazi Jewish, another big group in the Project
Cluster #5 is not represented in the reference populations except for a single Utah White. This is largely German.
Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.
Cluster #9 is largely Finnish and also includes some East Slavs.
Cluster #12 is essentially South Italian/Sicilian/Greek
Cluster #14 is mostly Assyrian/Armenian
Cluster #16 is mostly Balkan
Cluster #21 is mostly Scandinavian
Cluster #27 is mainly Balto-Slavic
Cluster #29 is essentially Iberian
I cluster 100% in cluster 6 - which is French, apparently (most French fall into this cluster). I see 4 White Utahns also fall into 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Once again, it is disappointing that no sample population for Germans exist. This is a huge shortcoming in such detailed European analysis.Quote:
Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I also notice some Germans including a Swiss German in the French cluster, too. :)
The last submission opportunity was open to everyone, and the number of samples in the British cluster went from 77 to 137. This was due to the large of influx of American samples which appears to be mostly of British ancestry. For the last results, you had a larger probability of being in the British cluster than the French one.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/04/...to-dod603.html
"Your nearest neighbor is 0.11 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V173 "1" "DOD197" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.750735"
V451 "3" "DOD488" "0.750395"
V43 "4" "DOD041" "0.750304"
V606 "5" "Lithuanians" "0.750292"
V579 "6" "CEU25" "0.750084"
V81 "7" "DOD087" "0.750047"
V510 "8" "DOD550" "0.750034"
V514 "9" "DOD554" "0.750009"
V450 "10" "DOD487" "0.749959" (61% German, 25% Rusyn / Ruthenian, 12.5% Polish, 1.5% Ulster Scot)
V600 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.74995"
V245 "12" "DOD274" "0.749943"
V459 "13" "DOD497" "0.749919" (maternally French, Dutch, and English; paternally German and Scandinavian)
V277 "14" "DOD306" "0.749873" (West Norwegian)
V518 "15" "DOD558" "0.749844"
V364 "16" "DOD397" "0.749792" (Irish)
V546 "17" "DOD586" "0.749751"
V541 "18" "DOD581" "0.749742"
V447 "19" "DOD484" "0.749739"
V1 "20" "CAA001" "0.749729"
I wonder what 'CAA' stands for?
My nearest neighbours:
"Your nearest neighbor is 0.42 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V406 "1" "DOD442" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.752374"
V459 "3" "DOD497" "0.749844" (Her ancestry is maternally French, Dutch, and English; paternally German and Scandinavian)
V434 "4" "DOD471" "0.749394"
V436 "5" "DOD473" "0.749236" (100% Lithuanian.)
V214 "6" "DOD242" "0.74904"
V573 "7" "CEU25" "0.748946"
V291 "8" "DOD321" "0.748912"
V641 "9" "French" "0.748771"
V473 "10" "DOD512" "0.748688"
V490 "11" "DOD530" "0.748659" (Paternal Side: ~90% Scots/Irish, rest German & Dutch. Maternal Side: ~60% Scots/Irish, 20% English, rest Huguenot & German)
V433 "12" "DOD470" "0.748654" (French-Canadian, Irish, German, English, with possibly some Nordic. The German may be all northern German.)
V404 "13" "DOD440" "0.748538" (I am 100% French since the 16th century.)
V486 "14" "DOD526" "0.748505" (Irish, French, Dutch, English, Scottish, German, Swedish, and not sure what else.)
V569 "15" "KIM001" "0.748416"
V246 "16" "DOD275" "0.748374"
V431 "17" "DOD468" "0.748321"
V175 "18" "DOD199" "0.748289"
V519 "19" "DOD559" "0.748269"
V284 "20" "DOD314" "0.748266"
That V09 Belorussian... he seem to be many peoples "2" match:confused:
I checked it with various DOD's and the Belorussian comes very often (always?) at closest. This is - strange? I mean English, Irish, Germans, Norwegians all have that Belorussian as closest match, how's that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Also 0,42 is pretty high, but you are only closer to Belorussians that high, then you fall down to below 0,75 immediately with no participant higher than 0,75.
That is really interesting.
A Karelian Finn on ABF also have that V06 Belorussian as her closest match.
My parents' closest neighbours:
> closest("DOD262")
[1] "Your nearest neighbor is 0.36 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V233 "1" "DOD262" "1"
V391 "2" "DOD426" "0.752072"
V609 "3" "Belorussian" "0.752065"
V40 "4" "DOD038" "0.75113" Finnish
V115 "5" "DOD131" "0.750932" Finnish
V21 "6" "DOD018" "0.7505" British-Irish-Italian-Finnish
V49 "7" "DOD050" "0.750203" Finnish
V431 "8" "DOD468" "0.749778"
V436 "9" "DOD473" "0.749484" Lithuanian
V546 "10" "DOD586" "0.749405"
V604 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.749371"
V7 "12" "DOD003" "0.749155" Finnish
V312 "13" "DOD343" "0.748869"
V605 "14" "Lithuanians" "0.748867"
V234 "15" "DOD263" "0.748833" Finnish
V304 "16" "DOD334" "0.748719" Finnish
V429 "17" "DOD466" "0.748604"
V375 "18" "DOD408" "0.748565" Siberian Russian, father N1c1 from St. Petersburg, mother from the Urals
V510 "19" "DOD550" "0.748559"
V601 "20" "Lithuanians" "0.748556"
> closest("DOD263")
[1] "Your nearest neighbor is 0.24 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V234 "1" "DOD263" "1"
V49 "2" "DOD050" "0.75142" Finnish
V40 "3" "DOD038" "0.751148" Finnish
V115 "4" "DOD131" "0.750743" Finnish
V609 "5" "Belorussian" "0.750637"
V176 "6" "DOD200" "0.750306" Finnish
V107 "7" "DOD119" "0.750266" Finland-Swedish from Ostrobothnia
V304 "8" "DOD334" "0.75022" Finnish
V196 "9" "DOD222" "0.750201" Finnish
V391 "10" "DOD426" "0.749577"
V598 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.749351"
V139 "12" "DOD160" "0.748972"
V103 "13" "DOD111" "0.74895"
V80 "14" "DOD086" "0.748846" American of mostly British and German ancestry
V233 "15" "DOD262" "0.748833" Finnish
V9 "16" "DOD005" "0.748552" Finnish
V7 "17" "DOD003" "0.748479" Finnish
V431 "18" "DOD468" "0.748441"
V604 "19" "Lithuanians" "0.748397"
V436 "20" "DOD473" "0.748245" Lithuanian
My parents have this Belorussian on their lists as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
What was up with that individual, Belorussian V609 ;)
It would be really cool to participate in the Dodecad-project. I hope he will accept some new Norwegians soon...
Genetic structure of West Eurasians
Norwegians
K-3
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/1...orwegiand3.png
K-4
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/493...orwegiand4.png
K-5
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2...orwegiand5.png
K-6
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6...orwegiand6.png
K-7
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4...orwegiand7.png
K-8
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9...orwegiand8.png
K-9
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9...orwegiand9.png
K-10
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4...rwegiand10.png
K-11
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/630...rwegiand11.png
DOD197
East Asian 0%
Northeast European 27.14%
Southwest Asian 0%
West Asian 0%
Basque 0%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
Northwest European 69.63
Sardinian 3.22%
Swedish No 6 is interesting though, I mean being completely NW and NE European without ANY other influence, which seems to be pretty rare:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1303571944
I wasn't included in this run. :(
Some of these results seem to show how the basic elements of a larger population being shuffled, I mean most more typical representatives have the same elements, but the proportions are almost never the same in detail, not even between closest relatives...