Dodecad Ancestry Project

[Pallantides]

Franco-Russian anthropologist Deniker divided the light-pigmented Northern Europeans into a race nordique and a race orientale. So, it is a bit surprising to see that a basic division of northern Europeans into East and West has stood the test of time.

I'm not sure if Deniker would label me as "Nordique"

[Franz]

You do not know how I look like [...]

I do.

Look at the Y-DNA of the Lithuanians, they're so heavily Finnic(opposite of Baltic), that only the Finns have more N1c1.

Finns have detectable admixture from Central Siberians and Nganasans. Of the Nganasans, 92.1% had marker P43 which included 38 samples from Karafet et al. 2002. Finland’s population is very small even more so in the past so a drastic change in Y-DNA was so much more susceptible. So many people neglect that! Some studies aren’t very representable of the entire populations. Y-DNA doesn’t give the entire picture of migrations. The high presence of M178 and P298 is interesting. Those N1c1 bearers could have become progressively more Caucasoid/West Eurasian over time in terms of autosomal level before settling in parts of Europe. There are too many possibilities and factors. As for R1b in the West or other haplogroups in other areas, you need to consider things like polygamy, warfare, heightened or diminished male fertility in certain subclades or whatever. Newcomers may have become the rulers by force.

Imagine a model where a few individuals from a highly cultured warlike tribe slaughtered 1000s of more primitive men. This would result in a dramatic difference of gender ratio of the indigenous population. Then, the successful warlike men would mate with the indigenous women most likely multiple women and prettier ones at that leaving the uglier ones to the losing men causing the Y-DNA ratio to change over time in an exponential fashion in the resulting population. It could be quick and large in scope. In other situations, the demographic change in Y-DNA proportions could take longer.

Imagine IE nobility taking wives in some population of much greater size. Over time, the autosomal DNA of the IE would become diminished and diluted even if each IE male was taking more wives than each of the other population’s males. This would be due to their smaller initial population being outnumbered relative to the other population. The Y-DNA proportion of the IE’s paternal lineage would increase but not the autosomal DNA. There are all kinds different scenarios.

Also spermatogenic ability is different among males in different Y chromosome lineages: http://www.springerlink.com/content/amx117kh5vgrw2yt/

When full genome sequencing is done, we’ll be able to see how the haplogroups/haplotypes are related among each other on a better scale. Using Y-STRs are too noisy.

It is possible to draw parallels with the Balkan area. Most of them are Slavic, but genetically, they're not that Slavic at all. The same applies to Lithuanians, the native Finnic blood still runs in their veins.

Culture and language don’t necessarily correlate with genetics.

I am slowly getting fed up with people making assumptions without looking at 5000 years of history. What's next? Germans are actually Italian, because of the Germanic presence to Northern-Italy?

What isn’t possible to draw parallels? There was some interaction, but Germans are very distinct today from Italians. This is due to the mountains of the Alps. In fact, the isolated genetic barrier between Germans and Italians is one of the most distinct in Europe. With absolute certainty, can you tell me what happened 5,000 years ago?

Practically saying, if the sample population would be Estonian, then the Lithuanians would score high Estonian scores and everyone would be saying that they're "Finnic", not "Baltic". The naivety of some people is remarkable. Lithuanians are one of the most "Finnic" people in Europe, after the Finns.

How are Lithuanians the second most Finnic? By both projects with certain parameters, you don’t genetically cluster with Scandinavians/Nordics (i.e., Swedes and Norwegians) nor Finnish. You’re making speculations, and it appears you’re deriving it from the North European component when that component encompasses several subset elements.

Scandinavians share some of their ancestry with Germans/Brits and some ancestry with Baltics. Balts are more similar with Slavs though. Your allele sharing distance is closer to some Poles including Polako and Russians than all the Finns on his project.

[Polako]

I'm not sure if Deniker would label me as "Nordique"

Dienekes is a bit of a fruitcake when it comes to these things.

Neither MDS plots, nor pairwise individual distances, like ASD or IBS, can say who's "nordique" and who isn't. I bet some of those Lithuanians in the far top left of his new plot are pretty damn "nordique".

There are three different issues that need to be considered separately, and not lumped together...

a) PCA-MDS clusters and distances deal with broad ancestry, and are basically used to separate breeding, ethnic and linguistic groups.

b) Pairwise distances show who we're most similar to in terms of overall genetic structure, and people who are top of our lists need not be in the same intra-European clusters on various plots or in other cluster comparisons. For example, three Belorussians in my dataset are always in the to ten of most Scandinavians out of 2000 people based on 250K to 500K SNPs, but they're always far from them on intra-North Euro plots.

c) Genetic, epigenetic and environmental factors that affect phenotype. These will often show correlation with a) and/or b), but not necessarily.

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/03/...r-dodecad.html
I'm in cluster 21 along with most Scandinavians

Cluster #2 is by far the largest, consisting of mainly of "British Isles"/American White types of people; this grew substantially because of the recent open submission call when many people of this type of ancestry joined
Cluster #3 is essentially Ashkenazi Jewish, another big group in the Project
Cluster #5 is not represented in the reference populations except for a single Utah White. This is largely German.
Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.
Cluster #9 is largely Finnish and also includes some East Slavs.
Cluster #12 is essentially South Italian/Sicilian/Greek
Cluster #14 is mostly Assyrian/Armenian
Cluster #16 is mostly Balkan
Cluster #21 is mostly Scandinavian
Cluster #27 is mainly Balto-Slavic
Cluster #29 is essentially Iberian

[Loki]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/03/...r-dodecad.html
I'm in cluster 21 along with most Scandinavians

I cluster 100% in cluster 6 - which is French, apparently (most French fall into this cluster). I see 4 White Utahns also fall into 6.

Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.

Once again, it is disappointing that no sample population for Germans exist. This is a huge shortcoming in such detailed European analysis.

[Franz]

I cluster 100% in cluster 6 - which is French, apparently (most French fall into this cluster). I see 4 White Utahns also fall into 6.



Once again, it is disappointing that no sample population for Germans exist. This is a huge shortcoming in such detailed European analysis.

I also notice some Germans including a Swiss German in the French cluster, too.

The last submission opportunity was open to everyone, and the number of samples in the British cluster went from 77 to 137. This was due to the large of influx of American samples which appears to be mostly of British ancestry. For the last results, you had a larger probability of being in the British cluster than the French one.

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/04/...to-dod603.html

"Your nearest neighbor is 0.11 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V173 "1" "DOD197" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.750735"
V451 "3" "DOD488" "0.750395"
V43 "4" "DOD041" "0.750304"
V606 "5" "Lithuanians" "0.750292"
V579 "6" "CEU25" "0.750084"
V81 "7" "DOD087" "0.750047"
V510 "8" "DOD550" "0.750034"
V514 "9" "DOD554" "0.750009"
V450 "10" "DOD487" "0.749959" (61% German, 25% Rusyn / Ruthenian, 12.5% Polish, 1.5% Ulster Scot)
V600 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.74995"
V245 "12" "DOD274" "0.749943"
V459 "13" "DOD497" "0.749919" (maternally French, Dutch, and English; paternally German and Scandinavian)
V277 "14" "DOD306" "0.749873" (West Norwegian)
V518 "15" "DOD558" "0.749844"
V364 "16" "DOD397" "0.749792" (Irish)
V546 "17" "DOD586" "0.749751"
V541 "18" "DOD581" "0.749742"
V447 "19" "DOD484" "0.749739"
V1 "20" "CAA001" "0.749729"


I wonder what 'CAA' stands for?

[Loki]

My nearest neighbours:

"Your nearest neighbor is 0.42 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"

RANK ID IBS

V406 "1" "DOD442" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.752374"
V459 "3" "DOD497" "0.749844" (Her ancestry is maternally French, Dutch, and English; paternally German and Scandinavian)
V434 "4" "DOD471" "0.749394"
V436 "5" "DOD473" "0.749236" (100% Lithuanian.)
V214 "6" "DOD242" "0.74904"
V573 "7" "CEU25" "0.748946"
V291 "8" "DOD321" "0.748912"
V641 "9" "French" "0.748771"
V473 "10" "DOD512" "0.748688"
V490 "11" "DOD530" "0.748659" (Paternal Side: ~90% Scots/Irish, rest German & Dutch. Maternal Side: ~60% Scots/Irish, 20% English, rest Huguenot & German)
V433 "12" "DOD470" "0.748654" (French-Canadian, Irish, German, English, with possibly some Nordic. The German may be all northern German.)
V404 "13" "DOD440" "0.748538" (I am 100% French since the 16th century.)
V486 "14" "DOD526" "0.748505" (Irish, French, Dutch, English, Scottish, German, Swedish, and not sure what else.)
V569 "15" "KIM001" "0.748416"
V246 "16" "DOD275" "0.748374"
V431 "17" "DOD468" "0.748321"
V175 "18" "DOD199" "0.748289"
V519 "19" "DOD559" "0.748269"
V284 "20" "DOD314" "0.748266"

[Pallantides]

That V09 Belorussian... he seem to be many peoples "2" match

[Agrippa]

My nearest neighbours:

"Your nearest neighbor is 0.42 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"

RANK ID IBS

V406 "1" "DOD442" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.752374"
V459 "3" "DOD497" "0.749844"
V434 "4" "DOD471" "0.749394"
V436 "5" "DOD473" "0.749236"
V214 "6" "DOD242" "0.74904"
V573 "7" "CEU25" "0.748946"
V291 "8" "DOD321" "0.748912"
V641 "9" "French" "0.748771"
V473 "10" "DOD512" "0.748688"
V490 "11" "DOD530" "0.748659"
V433 "12" "DOD470" "0.748654"
V404 "13" "DOD440" "0.748538"
V486 "14" "DOD526" "0.748505"
V569 "15" "KIM001" "0.748416"
V246 "16" "DOD275" "0.748374"
V431 "17" "DOD468" "0.748321"
V175 "18" "DOD199" "0.748289"
V519 "19" "DOD559" "0.748269"
V284 "20" "DOD314" "0.748266"

I checked it with various DOD's and the Belorussian comes very often (always?) at closest. This is - strange? I mean English, Irish, Germans, Norwegians all have that Belorussian as closest match, how's that.

Also 0,42 is pretty high, but you are only closer to Belorussians that high, then you fall down to below 0,75 immediately with no participant higher than 0,75.

That is really interesting.